Hobbit

[quote name='Jacsmom'] In a can of vegetables there are numerous bug parts (they allow so many bug parts) so do you stop eating??? :wink:[/quote] You just HAAAAD to bring up the can of vegetables, didn't ya?!? 8) Okay, since you DID....I once opened a can of string beans and there, on the top for God and everyone to see, was a Katydid!! :lol:

Those are some cutie pies! I thought I was the only one that wasn't seeing the resemblance of the proposed breed the shelters normally say that it is. I even close both eyes and STILL just can't see any resemblance of the breed that they say it is! Example: Solid black puppy with wrinkles ---- they say it's an ACD. I absolutely roll with laughter! Oh yeah, a dog listed as a Corgis that looks strangely like a Great Dane. :lol: They are cheap entertainment, but it would sure be better if they could actually list the correct breed --- because someone may be looking for a puppy just like that and would not even consider looking at it because the breed is listed wrong. I do know some shelters in Texas that have orders to immediately put down anything that is Pit Bull or APBT crossed --- so they list the breed as something totally different (after the temperment test, or course). AND this is so off the topic, but --- well never mind, it's just too sad to even bring up.

:smilecolros: Are you turning into a NERD??? :lol:

Yep..... :wink: See, this is why (and I posted this question on the other board, too) I have a hard time accepting someone when they say they are breeding for the "betterment" of the breed when they don't know anything about genetics. How can they "better" something, when they don't know how it works? Like a breeder breeding merle to merle and then having NO idea why they are whelping pups that are deaf, blind, stillborned or die shortly afterwards. "Double-dapples" in Doxies, are nothing but a "Double-Merle". They have bred merle to merle --- potentially, two recessive lethal genes. The same goes for the Koolie breed (please no offense here intended), but from reading their website and visiting with some of the breeders --- they didn't know why the merle to merle breeding would sometimes result in deaf/blind/dead pups. AND some continue this practice and have no intentions on changing their breeding program. Not every pup will be affected, the ones that aren't are homozygous merles and will produce merles everytime they are bred --- they are heavily white factored (lots of white). White can sometimes be a bad thing, or a good thing .... just depends on your perspective. There I go....venting>again! Must..... :drinking: Where genetics is concerned, sometimes it can get ugly....in a hurry!

[quote name='Jacsmom']Gotcha! On the brindling thing too!! I am so proud of myself! See if this is right... Brindling is a mutation.. Occuring in a specific dog it is that dogs chromosomes. This is not passed on to pups because each pup in a litter forms its own DNA, chromosomes, and etc... therefore the genetic (as far as color) structure of the brindled dog would not interfere with the pups??!! Correct or no?![/quote] Correct, unless one of the pups has a mutation of the cell (rare, but could happen). Not really it's own DNA -- inherited DNA: The pup gets 78 chromosomes; 39 from it's mom and 39 from it's dad. Each chromosome has a partner (inherited from the other parent); 78 chromosomes that form 39 pairs. Mutations occur when there is an alteration of the DNA (the nucleotide sequence that code for a specific protein). Mutations can be cause by a very wide variety of things --- chemicals (mostly), terratogens, mutatgens, carcinogens --- these are all chemical caused (unless I'm forgetting something). OR...sometimes one partner is forgotten and this also causes mutations. Sometimes, we just don't know what happens, it just does >> but it still all relates to genetics.

[quote name='Jacsmom']Golden retrievers Black???? Is Black not a dominate color??[/quote] Goldens are genetically, (not phenotypically) black. They only look golden yellow due to their e genes restricting the development of black pigment. They're of the same genetic makeup as the "yellow" Aussies (Australian Shepherd). Goldens are (BB ee). Sometimes a black spot, streak, splash will occur on a Golden. This means there was a mutation in a skin cell in which (ee) became (Ee). This allowed the black pigment to form in cells descended from that one. The resulting mis-marked Golden does not produce puppies with black spots because the mutation occurred only in the skin, not the reproductive organs. Just like the brindling or Mosiac coloration in the Lab. Unfortunately, owners if they don't know anything about genetics, would be inclined to think another dog bred their female and put down a perfectly good pup just because he is mis-marked, at no fault of his own. If the pup came from champion parents, there is no need to destroy him or even neuter him, because the coloration will not be passed on to the next litter. The genetics are still there with the great possibility that his offspring could be champions. Yes, black is dominant, normally. When the cell mutates, it is more dominant than yellow, but less dominant than black, but it "mutates" the color ---- if that makes better sense.

[quote name='Horsefeathers!']Housebreaking... such a simple thing... This has not been a problem for the first two weeks. He pees right in front of me and just smiles as if it's what I told him to do. Umbatoo War Dance (don't ask) in my back yard. I'm assuming that being kenneled his whole life has made him used to pottying where he has to live. [img]http://groups.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetMBPhoto&ImageID=nEQDbdysGXjMqJQO8VWWPci7r9FqUFwEml9xz52NTI6tvYAecdndHbg[/img][/quote] I think he pees in front of you because he isn't afraid of you and he's used to doing this in the kennel --- and he thinks he's being good and doing the right thing. This is good, because you don't want him sneaking around and peeing in places that you find later. Umbatoo War Dance --- did this involve a live chicken and peach preserves? I think you are totally correct that being kennelled in entire life, he just doesn't know any different. That was THREE YEARS of repetition! He done okay for the first 2 wks because he didn't know HE LIVED there. It was new and he thought he was visiting, NOW he KNOWS this is his home and THIS ..... his home ..... is where he uses the bathroom, because he has been doing it for the past 3 years. Advice: man this is going to take time. He is smart and will catch on, eventually. I guess staying outside is not an option? What about for a while? Part-time? Just long enough to redirect his thinking that OUTSIDE is where he lives? Since he's backward in his thinking, not any fault of his, this may work. Patience.......repetition....... a thought, if you crate him >> he'll just go in the crate, you think??

He is pretty cute...... :wink:

[quote name='Jacsmom']Wow sounds like Jac....Only worse... :o I am buying a padded room!!! :shocked!: Good dog Great dog... Seizures, broke leg, Now he has this thing on his leg (cyst possibly??) I am thinking WHAT NEXT!! Going to the vet next week!!! But on a plus went tracking Sunday with him.... extent time and length of track (time 15 mins track approx 100yds) He did it!!! It is truly amazing!! He is even backtracking from an older scent say 2 hrs to the fresher say 15 mins scent to find what he is looking for!!! And bragging on myself... I am learning to read his body language to tell what is the older and newer scents... :smilecolros:[/quote] I have an industrial roll of bubble wrap!! I think he truly enjoys seeing us spaz out ---- he has now decided that the shortest distance between two points is from the highest point in the room!! Instead of walking around the sofa, he'll jump onto the back and JUMP as far OUT as he can (of course I'm running to catch him, but he is so fast and quick, there is no way). Even though he knows, OFF and NO --- these are not even in his vocabulary when he does this. He takes GREAT delight in doing this. Kelpies are notorious for their climbing like monkeys. He'll climb and just look at us with this silly grin! Oh....he's going to be the death of me. He isn't the only one with a sense of humor. Miss Kitty is a terrorist. You don't EVEN walk in the barn without making sure where she is. She will climb onto the very top of the hay stack and hide. As you are walking by, she finds GREAT delight in pouncing on you like a cat. Scares (and knocks) the absolute breath out of you. Just bragging that I haven't LOST my sense of humor or patience with these little angels......... :o Isn't it wonderful when all things seem to come together!? Girl, go on and brag on yourself -- that is wonderful!

[quote name='deepseasnake']OH I REMEMBER NOW Hobbit, you were talking about how after line breeding you can "secure" a trait into a dog type, or at least thats what I thought I read. Is that directly related to why you say not to assert Alphaness and dominance over herding breeds? Are they geneticaly "built" to not be conquerd, there for they can herd rowdy and much bigger animals?[/quote] Deep, homozygous (alike) genes will breed true and the phenotype and genotype can be "fixed" (a certain trait that can't be changed unless bred to a heterozygote (different). Heterozygous genes will not breed true. No, not directly related, if i'm understanding your post. In a real working (for a living) dog, you don't want one that constantly looks to you for direction (like a sports/performance dog) because sometimes you may not be in sight and the dog needs to make a decision on his own. I'm not saying to let the dog run over you, but a herding dog needs to be of a dominant personality and have confidence. This is because they must be dominant and full of confidence (cocky, if you will) while working stock. They must make this 2400 pound bull believe that they can and will rip him apart if he doesn't do what he says. The dog must have the courage to nip a stubbord sheep or cow to get it moving. On the other hand, he must also be gentle enough to move baby lambs without hurting them. Some dogs can do this, some can not. No. Genetically they are not built to be conquered, just dominant in nature, but able to take commands and direction. Some are way better than others at this. You must have a balance of dominance, but not so much that they are not controllable.

[quote name='Jacsmom']Hobbit I have no doubt on anything you are saying.. I believe that training though brings that agression to a full extent.. [color=red][b]YES, agree, .... "the environment pulling the trigger".[/b][/color] Kind of like alcoholism in a person instead of going to AA it would be like taking them to an open bar.. [color=red][b]YES, exactly....or like taking a "game" bred dog to a dog-fight or a strong herding dog to the sheep pen.[/b][/color] Question #2: Brindling is a mutation of a b (loci ? ) is that something that occurs just out of the blue or is it nessessary to spay/neuter your bitch or dog? [b][color=red]NO, see below. It is unlikely that this coloration can be passed on (from the brindle pup, therefore; no need to spay or neuter) But genetics are not absolute and can humble us by producing things not expected. [/color][/b] Parents black and chocolate. (Labs of course) Yellow pup. I know this is totally of the agression subject but it is on the genetics subject??!! :wink: :B-fly:[/quote] The brindling is rare and occurs, so it is thought, several ways: first: during the division into daughter cells, one daughter cell receives an extra chromosome, because one of the chromosomes fails to separate. Second theory is that during the time the daughter cell reconstitutes, one of the chromosomes is left behind. The one left behind would have to be the dominant allele, otherwise the dog would be of a normal color. Thirdly, both sire and dam could be carriers of a mutated allele. Just a bit of trivia --- Golden Retrievers are actually genetically BLACK. AND --- I think I now understand what Gordonmom's was trying to make me understand --- after a few days of thinking about this (this is what stress will do to you --- makes you not think clearly): okay, her statement concerning that EVERYTHING is not dictated by genetics (not an actual quote since I don't have it directly in front of me...but you know what I mean) --- YES, I finally understand what she was saying. YES, you are correct in one sense, genetics has nothing to do with accidents, chemical poisonings, high fevers, etc... MY thinking was that EVERYONE would automatically eliminate the obvious/fever, viruses, bacteria's etc...that would have nothing to do with genetics. Understand? Barred ANY outside environmental meddling -- genetics does dictate the outcome. NOW, add all the other OUTSIDE things that can happen >> YES, the outcome could be different.

Oh boy....I appologize. I didn't realize my growl & snap. There's no excuse for rudness --- and thank you for bringing that to my attention. Just briefly -- I have a Kelpie pup that was whelped April 25. EVERYTHING that I've ever wanted, attitude, natural instinct, temperment, he minds, he started working the roosters at 8wks old (they bored him, too easy), then moved him to the gentle (dog broke) goats and he is doing excellent. He is the LAST of this bloodline and there will be no more. If something happens to him, then the bloodline and genetics are lost. THEN .... disaster: first -- he was bitten by a Cooperhead snake -2x's (at the same time), when he was 9 wks old, everything went well, after 13 hours of round the clock watching him (after medication and more medication), he pulled out of it. A freak accident when he was 17 wks old -- he broke his leg in TWO places > shoulder and radius. Okay, vet pinned the shoulder, but decided not to cast the radius because the ulna would hold it in place and because the sutures would be aggravated by any type of cast. THEN --- the leg started taking a "twist" -- well sh+t, x-rays show the growth plate prematurally closed on the ulna. So, this means the ulna has stopped growing, but the radius has not --- yeah....banana shape going on here. So, we're waiting to seen an Orthopedic Surgeon (at the tune of an access of $2500.00, more than willing to pay this to make him okay) > several options: rebreak the radius and break the ulna. Take a portion of bone from the ulna then plate it apart so it can grow to catch up with the radius. OR just break the ulna and do the above. OR there could be nothing that can be done and he's screwed. Oh...I'm not thru here..... Pin is out, both breaks are healed. He's in the day pen (small pen so he can louge at his convenienve and get some exercise), one week ago tomorrow --- while letting him out of the pen, and he NORMALLY stands there, we shut the gate and snap a lead on him and we go to the house (trying to limit his exercise) ....well.....this time, he bolts because he has just got to check on "his" goats. On his way (about 20 foot) he cuts the corner too sharp and hangs the SAME shoulder on the corner of the fence and RIPS/PEELS HIS SKIN FROM BETWEEN THE SHOULDERS STRAIGHT DOWN TO ALMOST THE MIDDLE OF HIS BELLY. Did this slow him down? NOT EVEN. Of course, it can't be surtured because it's right in the "pull" area. So, for a week he's had this gapping hole, oozing mess --- he doesn't mind, he is so pain tolerant it's unreal. It is healing very nicely ---- HE IS ON A SUICIDE MISSION and it's making me crazy. I worry about him constantly, and he is just so happy go lucky --- NOTHING bothers him. He'd walk into a line of gun fire, an explosion, he is fearless. Sorry for the long OFF THE TOPIC post.......rudness is no excuse, forgive me unintentional vent at some nondeserving folks. Alrighty, I will answer your question, Jacsmom in another post that just answers your question.....thanks for listening and forgiving my rudness.

[quote name='Jacsmom']Question::: Do you believe you could take two even tempered dogs non-agressive (tested to the extreme)... but by nature are suppose to be agressive... And breed the agression out of the breed "without" outcrossing to another breed? My question is would this "mean" gene at some point be "lost" or bred out of the breed itself?[/quote] Well, if by me using the quote box, makes me computer ILLITERATE, than I guess I am. Yes, that was sarcasm that I will not appologize for. Jacsmom: an even tempered dog can CARRY an aggressive gene (could be hidden), and YES it can be bred out. Homozygous genes breed true, heterzygous genes do not. Recessive genes, incomplete dominance, epistatic genes, etc... this all affects the out come of a breeding. Gordonsmom -- you have your opinion, please do the research; I will not get into a p+ssing match or scratch match with you over this. Jacsmom: you can believe me or not, I don't care. I study and apply genetics for a living. Since there are several possible gene pairs that could occur during the pairing process ---- this could be possible. This is why "selective" breeding is important. A person can breed two non-aggressive dogs and have a pup in the litter that shows aggression. If you are breeding for non-aggressive dogs, then this pup should be put down, neutered or spayed. Bottom line, it should not be bred. If a person elects to inbreed, eventually the genes will be "fixed" for a specific phenotype. If the gene is homozygous, it can be fixed genotypically, if it is heterozygous, then it will never breed true. And YES, brain tumors (epilepsy, heart defects, etc...) CAN be bred OUT. If both parents are carriers or affected, then they should not be bred, period. If one is a carrier, and is bred to one that is not, then a portion of the pups will be affected, some will not. Careful, selective breeding is a must in any breeding program, not just when genetic defects are involved. Some breeds were "created" to be aggressive; yes, it would be possible to produce a non-aggressive dog, but it would take years to "clean" up the breed. And since there would be more than one person doing the breeding, this possibly would never happen because of all the variables that could and will happen (keeping a pup because it's cute and ignoring it's behaviour -- breeding it later).

Rowie you lost me there for a minute about the black/tan coloration. Gigi's comments now make sense. Okay, ACD's come in only blue or red. The blues have the tan/rust highlights that come from the black/tan Kelpie. The Kelpie was the last cross that helped create the ACD of today. The blue is actually a mixture of black and white hairs that give it a blue appearance. Sometimes, the color can "wash" out or dilute into a light red (almost creme color). AND YES, the ACD uses it's tail as a rudder while working. They were originally "created" as a cattle dog (not a sheep dog). It is getting harder and harder to find an ACD with any natural ability left, since being inducted into the dark-side (AKA, the AKC), the show breeders have been busy breeding OUT their natural ability, --- breeding only for "looks" for the conformation class and NOT herdibility. ONLY recently, are some of the breeders actually breeding for the herding ring --- there may still be hope for the breed, afterall.

[quote name='Gordonmom']I have a double Major in Microbiology and Biochemistry, and have worked as both an industrial microbiologist and clinical microbiologist for 25 years. But no, I am not a genetisist. Maybe new things have happened that I am not aware of just recently. I have read studies which have compared maternal twins that were separated at birth. I also keep up with other studies that compare nature with nurture. I am also fascinated with socio-pathic individuals, and what can cause them to be this way. Also, when looking at prison inmates that contain the extra X chromosome, even though both of their parents are normal is fascinating stuff. How did that extra X get there? But this is just a hobby, and I explore this stuff just for fun. So the only real genetics stuff I learned while getting that biochemistry degree. Affected receptors are not a mutation, as they cannot be passed on to their progeny. If to believe that genetics controls everything, that is fine. However, I do not. :D I have learned through the years that there are no absolutes in anything. :lol:[/quote] The prison inmates that have the extra "X" in their genetic make-up are normally larger in stature and have lower IQ's. So, you are saying the way they act is not genetic? You think that an animal acts a certain way because "it just does"? I do not, because genes control the being. Everything one way or another is related to the genetic makeup. Maybe the animal is genetically predisposed for a certain behaviour. Since there are a vast number of gene combinations, it is possible the parents show no signs of aggression, but the puppy does (aggression coming from a gene combination). I was not attacking your intelligence, just trying to understand the reasoning behind your thoughts. Being heavy on the genetics side of my education (College), I have a different opinion ----- genetics make the being. Where genetics is concerned, there is no absolutes (but it still boils down to the genes). I respect your opinion, but I have a different one. Thank you for your response.

[quote name='deepseasnake']I think I read somewhere that all bulldogs give birth through C section but I dont know, it would make sense though, god knows I wouldnt want to see the animal that could pass that thing :o[/quote] Yeah, it's kinda like.....you don't want to see the guy that SCARED DON KING!! :lol:

Gordonmom: first, this is not a sarcastic or ugly question, but: do you know anything about genetics? I would appear that you do or at least know the basics of genetics. Yes, I DO know genetics. And EVERYTHING --- still my quote --- is dictated by genetics. This does not mean that during development, the gene is not mutated, it is not affected by a teratogen, is not affected by gene drift. But, it is STILL all affected in one way or another by the genetic makeup of that living thing (person or animal). After birth -- yes the environment (physical and mental) can affect the way a person or animal looks at the world, acts, behaves, treats others, etc.... Still, their genetics....dictates everything.

[b]This is not meant to offend anyone[/b]......but....I would HATE to see the pups he produces. This is purely from a genetics point of view. Large shoulders, trying to pass thru the birth canal.... :o . Let's just hope he produces small pups that have a good rate of gain -- AFTER -- they are borned! :wink:

Well, at least it wasn't a porn site... :lol: ...the Chihuahua ..... er....Chi Boy, had me worried. I was scared I'd be psychologically damaged if I opened it and saw a nekkid man with a ...... Chihuahua :o .

[quote name='Rowie-the-Pooh'][img]http://www.geocities.com/cndpets3/DSC00004.jpg[/img] These 2 look like Rotties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o Hobbit, is it true that Heelers are born white then turn Blue ????????????!!!!!!!!!! Or is it just another bunch of crap? :x ANOTHER Q... :oops: Do they Dock heeler's tails....cuz the male DOES seem to have a docked tail...or am I imagining??????????? :-?[/quote] Rowie, Yes --- Australian Cattle Dogs (ACD) are borned snow white, with the exception of facial markings (called masks) and body spotting (which is undesirable). They, the blue and red ACD's, start coloring out at about 3 wks of age and continue to do so for several weeks. Unfortunately, back yard breeders and people that are ignorant of the breed, dock tails. I would not even think of buying an ACD with a docked tail, to me --- this is a substandard, poor quality person that docks tails. And NO, you aren't imagining that the stud dogs tail is docked....it is and these people are substandard, poor quality people with substandard, poor quality dogs. They dock all the pups tails, too ---- themselves. WHY? In their email, they said, "because everyone wants their tail docked". YEP, I did express my opinion to be point that there was NO misunderstanding as to what I was talking about!!

[color=red][b]EVERYTHING is dictated by genetics.....EVERYTHING. The environment pulls the trigger. [/b][/color]

It is unfortunate that with the mentality of people as this, the American Pit Bull Terrier will continue to be persecuted. It's one step up and three steps back. Evenually, there will be a total split in the breed (like with the working and show Kelpie). Even though they are Pit Bulls, they will be a divided breed --- Family Pit Bulls and Fighting Pit Bulls, OR Non-game and Game-bred Pit Bulls. It has already began to happen. It started out as a "man-made" breed and can end up as a better, "man-made" breed. This sort of practice (dog fighting) has survived for centuries, from generation to generation. Don't think that you can change it all at once, or even at all. As much as you know I am on your side of non-fighting dogs, genetics can not be changed overnight. It will take years of selective breeding to breed an undesirable behaviour out of a breed. Crossing with the Boxer or other breed and then crossing back to a non-game Pit Bull may be the saviour of the American Pit Bull Terrier.

[quote name='sasterb']My dogs love Heartgard. They love it when that time of the month comes. I've looked online to see if I could find it any cheaper but I've found the same prices as the vets office. Maybe only $1-2 difference.[/quote] Sasterb --- do you have an ACD? If you do, by using Heartguard, you are giving your dog Ivomectin and are playing with the fate of your dog. It's not my business, but herding bred dogs have a genetic sensitivity to Ivomectin. There are other products out there that do not contain Ivomectic --- Like Interceptor, it is Milbemycin.

Deep, I've got some information in a genetics book that I'll look up tomorrow (it's late...actually early, wee hours in the AM, I am tired and need some sleep).

It's an example of the "even blinder, leading the blind".