Hobbit

Okay, thanks. This is the first time he's ran into this and of course, I'm laughing my self to death over here!! :lol: It's just the look on the dogs face when he can't find the carpet --- really sad, poor boy. I've never seen him use the carpet before, I know several of the other gun-dog owners are using it. Sounds a little *problematic* to me (later on). I think he will probably use the carpet to wipe his feet on and not sit dogs on for now on! :lol: :lol:

Any suggestions here? My buddy has a nice Lab that he trained himself. He is a very accomplished trainer, responsible owner, and the most patient person I've seen in a while with his dogs. With his dogs, he sometimes can not use the same method because they do not all respond alike. Example: Clicker training works for some, but not for some; a training collar is a must for some, but not for others....etc..you get the idea. One particular pup, he started out using a piece of carpet to get his "stays" & "sits" down pat and he uses a clicker. He sends the dog out for a retrieve, he brings it back like he should and the carpet is used to get him in the correct position/correct place. When the pup hears the clicker, no matter what he is doing --- he goes to his carpet. Even if it is 100 yards away from the handler. Are you starting to see a problem with that? He is now to the point in the training that the carpet is being weaned away from him....the dog has another idea to this! NOW, are you starting to see the problem? NOW here's the problem: He has a pump shotgun, when he chambers a shell --- for whatever reason, the dog thinks this is the clicker! He responds like he is supposed to. If the carpet is in the back of the pickup, this is where the dog goes --- just like he was taught. If the carpet isn't to be found, he worrys himself trying to find it. I am not a gun-dog trainer, but it seems to me that he needs to start over WITHOUT the carpet. Right? Any other suggestions?

Our monsters....er, I mean angels like anything that rolls, squeaks, tumbles, flies, hops, skips --- anything they can bite shake, play tug-of-war with, play keep-away with, anything they can herd, chase, squeak (aka: beg for mercy) and destroy, destroy, destroy....warning Will Robinson...warning....oh, sorry -- got carried away.

Stiff are you now or are you planning on giving your dogs supplements? Newfiemom -- would you post your hard biscuit recipe? I'm interested in it for my dogs. AND what, if any, supplements do you give your dogs? Dad4duchess -- I don't use BARF; no raw meat from the store, only farm raised and killed meat. Let me clarify this: this is not their staple diet -- it is only a supplement and a small one at that (when available). Has anyone known of a chicken-killing dog dieing from eating the chicken? Besides dieing from lead poisoning? :wink:

[quote name='gigishiba'][quote="corgilady went to petsmart today....hunted for pizzle.....got tickled & had to leave! :lol: :lol: :lol: why don't you guys start a NEW THREAD? why don't you call it.....[size=2]pizzle.[/size] Corgi, they are called BULLY STICKS at PetCo, maybe if you look under that? They are sold individually, not packaged.....maybe that will help you find them! :wink: [img]http://www.geocities.com/maniacdoglovers/dance.gif[/img] [img]http://www.geocities.com/maniacdoglovers/dance.gif[/img][img]http://www.geocities.com/maniacdoglovers/dance.gif[/img][/quote][/quote] Gigi -- !! It was a secret! Now Corgilady and Sashagirl will go buy the entire shipment!!

Jacsmom: Hum....funny, because the info sheet in the box says NOTHING about adverse reactions. I'm going to pull up the MSDS sheet on this. Yeah, the 15 day thing bothered me, too. BECAUSE the info person at Norvaris said the drug was out of the dogs system with 24 to 48 hours, usually less. Because it peaked at 12 to 17 hours. SO, my thinking is that of yours (Jacsmom) -- if it's still in the system at 45 days, WHY overlap, overdose, doubledose...etc? Of course, I didn't even expect them to admit anything --- liability would be too great, you're right Corgilady. Some of the homeopathic users, use Black Walnut seed and crushed watermelon seed as a HW preventative. Watermelon seed contains Arsenic, so I can see using it --- the dosage would have to be correct. So much --- can and does hurt your beloved dog, just like your children. How can we possibly protect them - all the time? It's making me weary.

THANK YOU -- really interested in the results.

We contacted Interceptor and they said, "absolutely it is NOT the Interceptor". Of course, I didn't expect any other response. The lady from Interceptor said it would peak within 12 to 17 hours and be out of their system. I didn't call back to see if I got another person with another answer.

Oh my, that is sad. Chili was laying down, like she was fixing to get up (you know, on her belly and chest). She started slapping the floor with her left paw. We went to her to comfort her and she tried to get up, but couldn't. Same dilated pupils, looks like with Jac. No drooling, but jaw clinched. No paddling, because she wasn't on her side. We took her to the vet and ran tests, she is normal as can be. He said if she had another one, we will run more indepth/extensive tests. She will get her Interceptor on Thursday, so, we'll see if she has another one. If she does.....we just found the culprit. Thanks for posting the pictures. The pictures are valuable for future information.

A can of worm pizzles! :wink:

:o did I misspell it! Whew, no. :lol: :lol:

It is interesting, I stumpled across several other dog forums and the BARF diet seems to be very (VERY) controversial there, too.

[quote name='deepseasnake']Hobbit, just to let you know, I think you are a fricken genius I've learned SO MUCH sense you joined this board! I just want you to know you are appreciated, respected and valued emensily as a part of this group. I have really enjoyed this last thread as we have yet to see you get stirred up. I think you were great, you were completely composed for the duration of your debate and I felt you gave Gordon all the credit you could have and handled her quite well. You never sank to petty name calling or blatent insults of intellegance. So in the words of Mike Tyson from his last fight "I really take my hand off to you" :D[/quote] Thanks, not a genius by any means. I have learned alot from other posters here as well....and I mean alot. We all have valuable information to give to each other, all of our knowledge fits together like a puzzle and makes the whole picture complete. Unfortunately, ego's, opinions, personalities, characteristics...get in the way sometimes of completing that picture, mine included and for that I appologize.

[quote name='Jacsmom']Hobbit please do not take me as being an a** or anything... I find this all interesting and informing... (I didn't need a path. report just your answer will do! :wink: ) I found this bit on info....See what you think...I know it says humans but I am not done looking.... :wink: Escherichia coli is the predominant, facultative anaerobe of the human intestine. [u]Beneficial strains of E. coli typically colonize the infant gastrointestinal tract within a few hours after birth. The presence of this bacterial population in the intestine suppresses the growth of harmful bacteria and is important for synthesizing appreciable amounts of B vitamins. E. coli usually remains harmless when confined to the intestinal lumen. However, in debilitated or immuno-suppressed humans, or when gastrointestinal barriers are violated, even normal, "non-pathogenic" strains of E. coli can cause infection [/u](2, 5, 9, 10). It is also known that some E. coli strains have developed the ability to cause disease of the gastrointestinal, urinary, or central nervous system in even very healthy people. Strains of E. coli that cause diarrhea include strains that cause traveler's diarrhea (enterotoxigenic E. coli), persistent diarrhea (enteroaggregative E. coli), watery diarrhea of infants (enteropathogenic E. coli), hemorrhagic colitis (bloody diarrhea), and hemolytic uremic syndrome (enterohemorrhagic E. coli) (2, 5, 8, 10).[/quote] Thanks Jacsmom. I posted the path report for everyone to see. Didn't mean to make you think I was snippy. Did you get a chance to read the post about the Greyhounds being used? It is quite interesting. Also, TX A&M, Kansas State and some others (can't recall the Univ name) are doing studies to enhance the immuno-ability in the gut of newborns (human and animals). I would be interested to read this as I assisted on a research study where Probiotics were given to new born calves -vs- no Probiotics given. The ones that received the Probiotics were healthier and gained faster.

[quote name='Jacsmom']Hobbit your female got E coli from a water source right? So was it the Entoameoba coli ? It is a question not meant for any other purpose....[/quote] [b][color=blue]I found the pathology report: Accession#: C010380178 M.C. Libal, MA, DVM, DACVM/lak Date completed: 02/14/01 Isolate: Hemolytic Escherichia coli Negative Culture Salmonella Negative Culture C1. perfringens Hemolytic Escherichia coli is a complication associated with Escherichia coli (E. coli) 0157:H7. It also lists the Antimicrobial information if anyone is interested in the sensitivity, intermediate or resisitance to the medicines. [/color][/b]

[quote name='K'][size=2]Am I talking to myself here? [/size]:([/quote] Nope, not talking to yourself. I was willing to let it go, but she just will not stop. OKAY GORDONMOM --- YOU ARE RIGHT...YOU HAVE PROVED YOUR POINT THAT I AM IGNORANT. I will let you win, you've won.

[quote name='Gordonmom'] This board has reduced itself to mockery for some unknown reason, and I certainly no longer care to be a part of it. Think what you may, but if you consider yourselves to be any better than the people on barking buddies you are mistaken.[/quote] It's NOT the board, it's you and your sarcasm (and now it's ME and my sarcasm). Why can't YOU just let it go. Do you want ME to admit YOU were right? [b][color=red]Okay, for the boards sake....... [/color][/b]YOU ARE RIGHT, YOU ARE RIGHT, YOU ARE MORE INTELLIGENT THAN ANYONE HERE, YOU ARE RIGHT, YOU ARE RIGHT. Satisfied?? Now, I have reduced myself to the lowest level of ignorance --- over what? Over a freakin' pathology report that SAYS "[i]E. COLI[/i]". You frequent Barking Buddies, so --- don't throw rocks at glass houses. If you don't like it here, then leave --- over what? OVER A FREAKIN' PATHOLOGY REPORT THAT SAYS, "[i]E. COLI[/i]".

[quote name='Gordonmom']Horsefeathers, I have spent 6 years in college and 25 years working as a microbiologist to know what I know today. If you cannot accept this then I really don't care. Go to school if you want research on bacteria. I also can spot when someone else is trying to BS me, and who thinks they know something about something when they really don't. If you don't know that they don't know what they are talking about they sound pretty impressive. Again, just because you can look something up and post it, does not mean you understand it. I can guarentee that most of what Hobbit prints she does not understand. That print about E.coil O:157 is like taking a passage out of the Bible. Without reading and understanding the whole thing you can interpret the portion that you choose. But I see you don't really care about understanding. [color=red][b]Dear Lord, here we go AGAIN -- get off my butt. I, TOO, have a college degree. I, TOO, have a double major. I have a MASTERS degree from an accedited college. Currently, I am pursuing a PhD degree --- not in business, not in computer science, BUT IN SCIENCE, I WORK IN MY FIELD OF STUDY ---S C I E N C E --- I HAVE HAD SEVERAL BIOLOGY CLASSES, INCLUDING MICROBIOLOGY! MY GRADE POINT AVERAGE FOR UNDERGRAD WAS A 3.6 OVERALL AND A 4.0 IN MY MAJOR --- SO BITE ME! KEEP YOUR SARCASTIC REMARKS TO YOURSELF.[/b][/color][/quote]

Most excellent, funny, appropriate, and to the point.

[quote name='Gordonmom']Hobbit, just because you can read from a book, does not mean you are up to knowledge on everything. You should have read up on E.coli O:157 BEFORE you started telling me about your dogs dying of just plain E. coli. And i assume you ment the bacterial E. coli and not the ameobic E. coli, which can also be found in water. Why don't you now read about that and regurgitate it for the board?[/quote] Gordonmom -- Just WHAT is up your a$$ about me? Are you still stewing over having your intelligence questioned on our genetics debate? I posted the book stuff for you, because you are so sure that E. coli (used in a generic sense --- but if YOU want scientific terms, then lets get after it) is NOT food borne and something that just doesn't exist .... very much. My scratch match is OVER with you, because it is YOU that is lacking.

Corgilady -- WELL said. Was it Shigella or Rotavirus? Make you feel like death would be better? Nasty stuff.

Veterinary Research ISSN : 0928-4249 1999 - Volume 30 - Num

GREYHOUNDS PROVIDE MODEL FOR E. COLI FOOD POISONING IN HUMANS MANHATTAN -- In racing greyhounds, it's called Alabama Rot; in people, E. coli food poisoning or hemolytic uremic syndrome. Both can cause acute renal failure, sometimes death, and both are believed caused by the E. coli bacteria. Brad Fenwick and Laine Cowan, veterinarians at Kansas State University's College of Veterinary Medicine, believe the similarity of the diseases between greyhounds and humans will provide a major step in researching the diseases caused by the deadly bacteria Escherichia coli, commonly known as E. coli. The bacteria is common to the environment and can be found in undercooked or raw ground meat. "The disease in greyhounds appears to be the best model of the human disease. Using dogs as a model, we will be able to gain a better understanding of the underlying disease process, innovative approaches to treatment, and hopefully ways to prevent hemolytic uremic syndrome. It will allow us to conduct studies that simply have not been possible previously," said Fenwick, associate professor of veterinary pathology. The greyhound disease was first recognized at a greyhound race track in Alabama, although now it occurs nationwide. Racing greyhounds are fed raw ground meat which makes them prime candidates for E. coli exposure. E. Coli food poisoning in humans also is caused by eating poorly cooked meat. The hemolytic uremic syndrome is a life-threatening disease and the most common cause of acute kidney failure in infants and children. Adults, adolescents and newborns also can be infected. In research on "Alabama Rot" in greyhounds, Cowan found a striking similarity between the changes in the kidneys of infected greyhounds and humans with hemolytic uremic syndrome. "In dogs, because the blood supply to the skin also is affected, the disease usually starts with ulcers on the skin. Like in humans, some of the dogs also have kidney failure due to blockage of the blood supply to part of the kidney," said Cowan, assistant professor of small animal medicine. "Humans don't get the skin form, but when the disease advances to the kidney failure stage in both humans and dogs it is almost identical." The problem with E. coli infection is that there is no cure, Fenwick said. "The toxins produced by the bacteria attack the cell lining of the blood vessels. When people and dogs are infected there is no specific therapy. Only the symptoms such as diarrhea and dehydration can be treated. That's why the discovery of an animal model is so important." Cowan and Fenwick began researching the greyhounds in 1993. Sick greyhounds from around the country were referred to the K-State veterinary clinic for care. Only recently have K-State researchers discovered what was causing the disease in the dogs. "We found that antibiotics and anti-inflammatory drugs have no recognizable effect," Fenwick said. "But the good news is, like in humans, the dogs respond to supportive care." Supportive care can involve intravenous fluids, transfusions and dialysis, the same treatment provided to children with hemolytic uremic syndrome. This research is supported by a grant from the Kansas Racing Commission and the National Greyhound Racing Association.

Escherichia coli O157:H7 is an emerging cause of foodborne illness. An estimated 73,000 cases of infection and 61 deaths occur in the United States each year. Infection often leads to bloody diarrhea, and occasionally to kidney failure. Most illness has been associated with eating undercooked, contaminated ground beef. Person-to-person contact in families and child care centers is also an important mode of transmission. Infection can also occur after drinking raw milk and after swimming in or drinking sewage-contaminated water. Consumers can prevent E. coli O157:H7 infection by thoroughly cooking ground beef, avoiding unpasteurized milk, and washing hands carefully. Because the organism lives in the intestines of healthy cattle, preventive measures on cattle farms and during meat processing are beinginvestigated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is Escherichia coli O157:H7? E. coli O157:H7 is one of hundreds of strains of the bacterium Escherichia coli. Although most strains are harmless and live in the intestines of healthy humans and animals, this strain produces a powerful toxin and can cause severe illness. E. coli O157:H7 was first recognized as a cause of illness in 1982 during an outbreak of severe bloody diarrhea; the outbreak was traced to contaminated hamburgers. Since then, most infections have come from eating undercooked ground beef. The combination of letters and numbers in the name of the bacterium refers to the specific markers found on its surface and distinguishes it from other types of E. coli. How is E. coli O157:H7 spread? The organism can be found on a small number of cattle farms and can live in the intestines of healthy cattle. Meat can become contaminated during slaughter, and organisms can be thoroughly mixed into beef when it is ground. Bacteria present on the cow's udders or on equipment may get into raw milk. Eating meat, especially ground beef, that has not been cooked sufficiently to kill E. coli O157:H7 can cause infection. Contaminated meat looks and smells normal. Although the number of organisms required to cause disease is not known, it is suspected to be very small. Among other known sources of infection are consumption of sprouts, lettuce, salami, unpasteurized milk and juice, and swimming in or drinking sewage-contaminated water. Bacteria in diarrheal stools of infected persons can be passed from one person to another if hygiene or handwashing habits are inadequate. This is particularly likely among toddlers who are not toilet trained. Family members and playmates of these children are at high risk of becoming infected. Young children typically shed the organism in their feces for a week or two after their illness resolves. Older children rarely carry the organism without symptoms. What illness does E. coli O157:H7 cause? E. coli O157:H7 infection often causes severe bloody diarrhea and abdominal cramps; sometimes the infection causes nonbloody diarrhea or no symptoms. Usually little or no fever is present, and the illness resolves in 5 to 10 days. In some persons, particularly children under 5 years of age and the elderly, the infection can also cause a complication called hemolytic uremic syndrome, in which the red blood cells are destroyed and the kidneys fail. About 2%-7% of infections lead to this complication. In the United States, hemolytic uremic syndrome is the principal cause of acute kidney failure in children, and most cases of hemolytic uremic syndrome are caused by E. coli O157:H7. How is E. coli O157:H7 infection diagnosed? Infection with E. coli O157:H7 is diagnosed by detecting the bacterium in the stool. Most laboratories that culture stool do not test for E. coli O157:H7, so it is important to request that the stool specimen be tested on sorbitol-MacConkey (SMAC) agar for this organism. All persons who suddenly have diarrhea with blood should get their stool tested for E. coli O157:H7. How is the illness treated? Most persons recover without antibiotics or other specific treatment in 5-10 days. There is no evidence that antibiotics improve the course of disease, and it is thought that treatment with some antibiotics may precipitate kidney complications. Antidiarrheal agents, such as loperamide (Imodium), should also be avoided. Hemolytic uremic syndrome is a life-threatening condition usually treated in an intensive care unit. Blood transfusions and kidney dialysis are often required. With intensive care, the death rate for hemolytic uremic syndrome is 3%-5%. What are the long-term consequences of infection? Persons who only have diarrhea usually recover completely. About one-third of persons with hemolytic uremic syndrome have abnormal kidney function many years later, and a few require long-term dialysis. Another 8% of persons with hemolytic uremic syndrome have other lifelong complications, such as high blood pressure, seizures, blindness, paralysis, and the effects of having part of their bowel removed. What can be done to prevent the infection? E. coli O157:H7 will continue to be an important public health concern as long as it contaminates meat. Preventive measures may reduce the number of cattle that carry it and the contamination of meat during slaughter and grinding. Research into such prevention measures is just beginning. What can you do to prevent E. coli O157:H7 infection? Cook all ground beef and hamburger thoroughly. Because ground beef can turn brown before disease-causing bacteria are killed, use a digital instant-read meat thermometer to ensure thorough cooking. Ground beef should be cooked until a thermometer inserted into several parts of the patty, including the thickest part, reads at least 160

[quote name='Gordonmom'] Your pups dying of E. coli has nothing to do with dying of a food born illness, which is what people are suggesting with a BARF diet. E. coli is not a food born illness. [color=red][b]WHAT?? YES, it can be food borne. [/b][/color]It is a fecal contamination illness. And it was the age of your pups that caused the illness, not the E.coli, given the fact that the mother did not die. I never once suggested that dogs did not get bacterial diseases. [color=red][b]AGAIN -- it was stated because of your question concerning E. coli. [/b][/color] And again, unless you do a culture, [color=red][b]***READ MY POST *** [/b][/color]there is no way of knowing that the food born illness that your dog has was Salmonella. None. period. And unless you took that wrapping that the piece of meat was in, and cultured that also, you could not prove anything. And unless you can tell me that everytime your dogs have an intestional problem you do a culture to find the exact nature of what is causing the problem, again, I will have to take what you say with a grain of salt, because how can you possibly assume which of many organisms is causing the disease just by looking at symptoms? [color=red][b]Yes, when you have ELEVEN dogs get sick ---- one does tend to make sure of what the cause is. Or at least, I do because I want to be able to catch it early and not before it's too late. [/b][/color] Again, you guys can believe what you want. Why are YOU so sure that none of this actually happened? [color=red][b]Do you think that I am lying here to make a point --- NOT my style, nor my integrity, PERIOD. [/b][/color][/quote]