Hobbit

[quote name='working koolie'] I know Im probably going to offend you Hobbit by some of my comments but I am around a lot of Kelpies here in Australia and it is possible that the American temperment could be different than it is over here :-?[/quote] Koolie --- I take no offense to your comments. I am secure in my breeding of my dogs, their temperment, their working ability, their bloodlines and every aspect of their being. I have herding dogs, not show dogs. My dogs are from imported working bloodlines and work livestock, they have never seen nor will they ever see a show ring for "looks". I, too, have been around a lot of Kelpies --- both imports from Australia and American bred (which came from imported bloodlines). Every dog has had a bit of a different personality, they are not like stone casts --- they are all individuals. The majority of working Kelpies are not bred for protection, they are bred for herding. When a person needs a working a dog, they don't ask how many conformation shows has he been too, or how burglars he has chased off ----- he asks to see him (if he's old enough) work. No offense meant to a show person, this is what they want to do --- so they don't go looking for a working Kelpie, they go looking for a show bred Kelpie and ask how many champions are on the pedigree. Some of the Kelpie breeders are trying to *improve* the bite or lack there of in the Kelpie and are crossing them with Pit Bulls --- this causes an offspring that is a tail and nose swinger. They rip up ears, noses and tails --- whatever they can get their teeth on. That is not to say they all do this, but the majority do (when crossed with a APBT) --- no offense meant to the APBT's. Personally, I don't "need" to improve my Kelpies by crossing them with any other breed --- How do you improve excellence? :wink: Yeah, that sounds smug, but the way to *improve* anything is with selective breeding. A dog that is not sound will not make it in the working world, he'll break down. Looks and color are just added spice in the working dog and are normally the last thing considered.

[quote name='Bensam']- the show kelpie in the pic. wouldn't win any awards here, too short in body, no front or rear angulation, but then as I said pics aren't always true. [/quote] That's hilarious that you should say that about the show Kelpie --- he is champion on top of champion. :lol:

[quote name='Horsefeathers!'][quote name='gooeydog']Teacup Yorkie?? :o[/quote] :o <<<Me with sealed lips. Goo, I wanted to go there, too...[/quote] Go girl!

:o :o

Working Kelpies vs Bench Kelpies. [color=red][b]Working Kelpie [/b][/color] [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e2d2be0e/bc/My+Documents/Glenlogie+Lucky.jpg?bc18D59AQnN17JTG[/img] [b][color=darkred]Bench Kelpie[/color][/b] [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e2d2be0e/bc/My+Documents/Show+Kelpie+black.jpg?bc18D59AFMdd5NX3[/img] [b][color=red]Working Kelpie[/color][/b] [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e2d2be0e/bc/My+Documents/Reggie+head+shot+good+051302.jpg?bcF1E59AnU8NR_NH[/img] [color=darkred][b]Show Kelpie[/b][/color] [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e2d2be0e/bc/My+Documents/Show+Kelpie+head.jpg?bcF1E59A2BHe3_mc[/img]

Here are some good websites to view. The first is the US registry. They second is the registry in Australia. The third has lots of information on foundation working Kelpies. [url]http://www.kelpiesinc.com/[/url] [url]http://members.iinet.net.au/~wkc/[/url] [url]http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/6392/index.html#THE[/url]

[quote name='usmcbyrd']thank you very much for helping cairnmom, but its not that kind of creeping red. blue heelers can get this gene that causes them to turn somewhat red like a red heeler. the coloring just gets kind of messed up. i dont think its anything that will hurt him, we think its just a coloring thing. but what im trying to figure out is does this gene come with any other side effects, like will he be fully healthy.[/quote] The "Creeping tan" can creep up to a point that the blue heeler would have a "saddle" appearance, or can continue to creep to a point that the blue is now a "red" heeler. It's rare and is genetic. There are no ill effects, it simply deals with color. I'll look for another post that was posted earlier concerning this. A Heeler named Foster --- started life as a blue color and is now a beautiful red. I have a blue female Heeler that was borned with a full black mask, the older she gets the redder the mask. Now, at 3 yrs old, she has a red mask and is a blue color. She inherited this from her grand-father.

[quote name='Bensam']Even in the Kelpie segment he is putting a slur on the registered dogs. I have friends who breed and show Kelpies AND a number of their pups are also sold for working. It disgusts me that Mr Burke intimates that the registered dogs have not the brains to do the job they are bred for.[/quote] The "Bench/Show" Kelpies are different from the Working Kelpies. They are (usually) either a solid dark red, or solid black (no tan). Recently, some of the "Show" Kelpie breeders have been infusing the Working Kelpie bloodlines into their show-dogs and are producing offspring with the tan. This is not to say that a Working Kelpie can't be a solid color. The Buchanan bloodlines are notorious for producing solid black color; the Capree bloodlines produce the creme color. The Show Kelpies (most of them) are not being bred for herding, they are being bred specifically for a certain "look" with NO regard to herding instinct or ability. They are usually shown only at conformation classes. The Bench/Show Kelpies are registered in the Misc. Class with AKC (in the USA); Working Kelpies are registered with the NAAKR (North American Australian Kelpie Registry and if imported, they are registered with the WKC (Working Kelpie Council), in Australia. The WKC will not register and does not recognize the "Bench/Show" Kelpie. I'm not saying that your friends "Show" Kelpies are no-brainers; I'm just saying that the majority of people would not purchase a Kelpie from "show-dog" lines for working.

[quote name='Bensam']I had not seen that article, as a matter of fact, I avoid that 'backyard'. He carries on about these 'designer dogs' being 'suitable' with never a mention of the hereditory or temperament problems in the individual breeds used to produce these. Dedicated breeders have been trying, and succeeding a lot of the time, to eliminate these problems from their lines and now this person spitefully has on National television a program which totally undermines the work being done AND promotes puppy farms! :evilbat: Hobbit, what do you think about this crossing of breeds, saying they're healthier, better temperament, etc. on these first generation crosses, how can anyone know this yet? This person is, in my opinion, creating a big problem, and encouraging more puppy farms.[/quote] Yikes -- I didn't read any of the other articles written by Burk. My opinion is that nothing can be accomplished from a first generation cross between two different breeds. This is simply not enough information to be able to say "healthier", "better temperment", etc...this is the FIRST cross and how does he or ANYONE know what the outcome will be like ---- they haven't even seen the puppy grow up!! Yes, I think it's a hugh mistake, a very large problem, and IS encouraging more people to breed whatever will stick together for a buck and call it "Designer", healthy, better temperment, etc....when in fact can be substandard.

[quote name='Horsefeathers!']Lol, funny you should mention that. We've always called our humble domain the island of misfits, thinking about the same Rudolph story. Sooooooooo.... when do you get your new puppy? :lol:[/quote] I love that show. I watch it every year, sing with the elves, and can almost say all the dialog ---- it's wonderful. If I can find room for him, we'll take him. I've contacted several people I know would give him a good home, they are dogged-up, too.

[quote name='K']One of Hollywoods Pits has been diagnosed with a murmer Have they actually said that if you don't take the dog it will be PTS or are there other options for it? I personally would not put a dog to sleep unless it was the only option for the best interests of the dog..if he has a chance give him the chance[/quote] I received an email this morning from the owner of the pup. What ever my decision is, they are not going to put him down unless he starts having problems (not likely, hopefully no complications). I would love to take him, but we just don't have any more room at the Island of the Misfits! :wink: We'll see how things go --- I do own a brother and sister, to this pup, from a previous litter of last year and 1/2 (ago). That's why I'm sweeping corners looking for room for him. Thank you for all your opinions, experience with, knowledge of, and suggestions.

[quote name='EBBY']Please, please dont put puppy to sleep. This bothers me greatly. I too, was offered a puppy (1 yr. old) with a heart murmer just last week....and I have to say, I would have taken him if it wasn't for the fact that the other alternative is to stay at the kennel where he is and live a long and happy life with people who know more about this and are better equipt to deal with it than I or my family. In additon, I have 2 small children who would not take the death of a dog well if things did go that way.... :cry: HOWEVER, that being said, if they were going to put him down as the other alternative I would not have allowed that to happen and would have said "to the wind with the risks - he's mine" and taken him home with me. :2gunfire: Remember, it is not the animal's fault that they are not born perfect...for that matter - are any of us? And additionally, I know little on the subject of heart murmers, but if there is even a remote chance he could grow out of it, shouldn't he be given that chance? Im just saying - think about it....and whatever your decision....I wish you the best.... EBBY[/quote] It's not my decision in regards to the pup, he belongs to someone else. I think this is just something that "happened". It's not bad breeding, it's not a back yard unplanned breeding, it's just something that "happened". Yes, I think he deserves a chance.

[quote name='newfiemom']Hobbitt, I would wait to see if the pup does outgrow it. I know with newfies (who can have Sub valvular aeortic Stenosis genetic defect) that some of them outgrow it and some live very happy, long lives with it. I have only know of 2 that have died at an early age. Lineage and genetics are a funny pair. Your whole line can be clean and out of no where, you get at least one that has something. This used to drive my mom crazy. I remember one breeding where she had clean bloodlines, 6 generations back. All of the dogs were OFA Good or Excellent, Cystinuria clear and Heart normal. In one litter, she had one that was a Cystinuria carrier, one with hip dysplasia in one hip and one with SAS. Thank God it was a large litter (13) but this stuff can drive any breeder crazy!![/quote] I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. Genetics makes me real humble sometimes. With the vast number of genes that can pair; it's a miracle that the ears are where they are supposed to be!! LOL YES, somethings just happen. No rhyme or reason, they just happen. It still amazes me that these BYB can just throw something together and not have monstrosities!

[quote name='roo']:o :o :o The incident!!!!!! :o :o :o K pray tell us :lol: Roo[/quote] Oh yeah, I agree with Roo...you must, you must tell us. K -- I'm getting all kinds of visual's with hands and things :o glued all over the place :lol: :lol:

Hey, I know what you are talking about. Fostering....turns into YEARS of fostering....for the rest of the dogs life. I just can't turn on and off the love. They become a part of you. They all have different personalities and you like them, then you love them unconditionally, then it's like NO-WAY am I giving this dog up. THEN you have MANY dogs and that becomes your name "ManyDogs". :lol: You know the Christmas story of Rudolph...this is the island of the misfit toys, for sure. :wink:

Some sites will state that Kelpies make excellent pets. THEY DON'T make excellent pets, if a PET is all they want them to do. They ARE excellent companions, ALONG with (in conjunction to) excellent workers. They are bred to herd livestock. They LOVE what they do and will wake you up at 3am.....to go check the goats and again at 3:05 and again at 3:30 and .....aaaauuuuggghhhh. TRUST ME, I know this. Their LOVE for work is NON-STOP (can't be turned off) EVERY second of the day. That is EVERY second of EVERY day, they want to herd something. Even in their sleep, they are herding! When ever someone inquires about getting a working Kelpie (as a pet) --- I spend the next 2 hours trying to talk them out of it and then give them the number of the nearest animal shelter for something more suitable as a pet (NOT a Kelpie). They are a pain in the neck. They work ANYTHING that moves: children, other dogs, lizards, butterflies, cats, skunks, snakes, mice, leaves blowing, flowers moving, bicycles, CARS, ..... ANYTHING! Some start showing interest as soon as their eyes can focus....others later, others may not start until they are close to a year old. One day, when you least expect it....it TURNS ON! Some sites say they are excellent guard dogs --- they are not. They are aloof with strangers, but are not human aggressive (most that is). They weren't bred to be human aggressive, they were bred to herd livestock. They can be down right nasty tempered if another dog aggravates them constantly and some will re-direct the aggression onto their handler. We just deal with this accordingly. They are athletic, like to climb (some can climb trees), like high places, and can find anything that you hide from them. Don't show them anything that you don't want them doing --- experience here...., they can open doors, gates, refrigerator doors, cabinet doors. DO NOT under any circumstances teach them how to climb ladders, then stupidly leave one leaning up against the house---don't ask! They can normally be house trained in one day --- honestly, no BS here. There are some that may take a little longer, but all-in-all they are very easy to teach to go outside to do their business. Oh, but they can be defiant, too and hateful, and rebellious, and pranksters --- . Some are "window jumpers". They take the quickest route out of the house --- thru the window. YEP, have one of those. We just have to be really careful when she is in the house. Have been unsuccessful at breaking her of this habit. Funny thing is --- her mother is the same way. Ahhh, love those lovely genes that were passed on to her. Some do make excellent agility dogs, because they can learn in a week what other dogs learn in 6 weeks. On the other hand, since they do think for themselves, they have been known to totally embarrass their handler at a show...... :lol: The "bench" or "show" Kelpie has a different look and different characteristics from the "working" Kelpie and are considered another breed, altogether. Alrighty, have a totally bored you all to sleep.....I'll stop now, until later! :wink:

Ahhhh sheep.....the lonely shepherd's girlfriend. :o NO, NO, NO, NOT A SHEEP!

I was asked if I thought that they should put him down. My reply was, I can not see into your heart on what your feeling may be. Your decision should be yours and only yours concerning the demise of the puppy. At this point, I was offered the puppy. What a decision to make.

Anti-PETA terrorist group, also.

Agree with you two, HF and Sashagirl. Reading the website under Adults for sale: There is a female for sale that OFA'd -- "fair" (hips are fair). One thing that I would never, ever do, is to breed a female with "FAIR" hips. I don't care if she was world champion 5 years in a roll. That's my opinion. I wouldn't breed her to an "excellent" hipped male, or even a "good" hipped male. I just would not breed her --- I think this is a vent. But anyway, why take a chance and breed her --- spay her! AND here is another vent: Why continue to breed "Handler Aggressive" dogs? Personally, I would put them down. How on earth can you be confortable working a dog (show or police work) when you have to constantly worry about him/her getting aggressive on the YOU, the handler? Am I just missing something here? This is an indication that the line breeding is taking a toll on their temperment. Okay, maybe that was too hateful. It indicates that maybe that particular sire should NOT be bred to that particular female --- because they are producing "HANDLER AGGRESSIVE" offspring. Am I still missing something here? Why BREED a "HANDLER AGGRESSIVE" dog? There are others that are not "handler aggressive" that could be bred. Okay, my vent for the hour.....

Fellow Doggers: Anyone have any experience with a puppy that has a heart murmur? It was heard only by the stethoscope, not seen on ultra sound. So, unknown if it's a value regurgication or aortic defect. I have been offered a pup that has a heart murmur. The vet said that *most* outgrow this by the time they are 6 months old. He is the only pup in the litter with this murmur. This is the bitch's second litter; first litter was clean. Sire and dam are both clean, as were the litters they were from. The grandparents were clean as were the litters they were from. So, I want to rule out inherited (haven't completely, yet). I know the lineage and are familiar with all the dogs in questions and they are all working dogs with a clean bill of health. Now....an ethical question: would you wait to see if it corrects itself (remember *most* do) or put him to sleep?

[quote name='K']Wouldn't you just love 3 foot by 4 foot glossy posters of it to go around supergluing to every pet shop window?....I know I would.... :x[/quote] K --- go the original website and if it's not copy writed, enlarge the photo, print it out, get a bottle of super glue and GO GLUE'em all over town. :wink:

Deep -- check this website out, you'll like it. [url]http://leerburg.com/[/url]

:o :lol:

[quote name='bk_blue']This is maybe not of interest to anyone except Hobbit, but thought I would post it anyway.... [url]http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/facts/2002/roadtests/workkelpie_36.html[/url] I was quite surprised by the price- up to $10k for a champion working dog... Worth it I suppose, the kelpies earn their keep in the end! :D[/quote] THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS. In January of every year in California at the Red Bluff Gelding and Bull Sale, there is a dog sale. It is geared specifically for working stock dogs and sold only to working ranches/persons. This past year a Kelpie named Urricelqui's Griz sold for $3100.00, his great-grand father sold (years prior) for $5300.00. I have a sister and 3 neices to Urricelqui's Griz; they are exceptional dogs when it comes to working livestock. Intelligence beyond comprehension. These prices are not uncommon, some started dogs start at $2500.00 and go up from there. The price is not outrageous when you consider that a good dog does the work of 2 to 10 cowboys (depending on the experience of the dog and attitude of the livestock).