Hobbit

[quote name='Horsefeathers!'][quote name='Gordonmom']I get very tired of people trying to scare other people with bacteria stories. Salmonella very rarely kills anyone.[b][i]It's ok to be sick from salmonella as long as we probably won't die?[/b][/i] And I don't know if dogs can get E. coli O:157 as people do, but that bacteria is not as common as the news would have you believe. We do not live in a sterile world.[/quote] I get very tired of defending my position that I, me me me, *I* know that *my* dog got sick. Don't think I wasn't scared, myself. I'm just a mere common pet owner. I'm not a brilliant scientist and make no pretenses to be anything but a podunk pet owner, so I'm not out there swabbing my dogs' mouths and whatever else it is that science minded folks are doing with their dogs. However, I CAN learn from experience and I am open minded enough to know what CAN happen. CAN as in POTENTIALLY. Geez, all I have been preaching is what CAN happen and what DID happen. If sharing [b][u]my[/b][/u] story is interpreted as an attempt to scare people, then you have obviously misread me. Next time, just tell me what you want to hear and I'll practice saying it like I mean it, so that way nobody will have to get so tired of hearing differing viewpoints. I stated above that I was merely sharing my own personal experience. You can take it the way you want to. My dog got sick [b][u]once[/b][/u] and that once was enough for me. It may not have ever happened again in a million years, but it's not worth it to me to risk it. I kinda like my little dog, ya know?[/quote] HF -- with you on this. Why is it so hard for some people to comprehend? Two days ago, while at a herding trial, a man asked what we use for a heartworm preventative. I told him....Interceptor. He then commences to tell me how he uses Ivomectin; 1/2 cc (pure, not diluted) and administers it orally. He said he gives it to all his dogs (he has Kelpies and Border Collies). I asked him if he was aware that herding bred dogs are genetically predisposed to have possible fatal side effects from the Ivomectin. He said, "Yeah, I've heard that ... but don't believe it much". I asked him how many dogs has he lost using Ivomectin? He said, "SEVERAL, BUT IT'S CHEAP". There are other better products out there, that are safer --- WHY NOT USE THEM? WHY ON EARTH, would a person take a chance on harming their beloved dog/animal in such a way? Newffie --- not in any way directed to you or any other person. I know you have/do/are doing and using every precaution to protect your dogs.

[quote name='"Gordonmom"'] The only post I personally would take any stock in would be Hobbits puppy story, and those pups did not die from a food born illness but rather from the inability to defend against a naturally accuring organism because of their age. [color=red][b]By this post, you have and are calling me a liar. The pups died from E. coli from a contaminated water source. You were not there, you do not know, you did not see nor read the pathology report, so what gives you the right to say anything different? I am alot of things, but I am not a liar. I dont' care if you believe me or not, I was there, I wrapped the puppy's little bodies up, put them in a cooler and drove them to Texas A & M State University, Veterinary Medical Center. I grieved then, and I grieved afterwards and to this day because of the water well that I, that I, I, I, should have had tested is what killed them. So, to answer YOUR post, YES, ANIMALS CAN DIE FROM E. COLI. Adult dogs can also become very ill from drinking E. coli contaminated water. Water that contains >200ppm/100ml, because anything greater than 200ppm/100ml is considered a POLLUTED or IMPACTED water source. [/b][/color] The Salmonella I would have to be sure did not come from some livestock on the farm. [color=red][b]It did not come from the farm --- the dogs were tested, as was the food. Why is it so hard for some people to believe that someone else in the world, just might KNOW what they are talking about? [/b][/color] If it did, that livestock very well may still be carrying the organism, but the dogs and people have now developed antibodies against that particular strain, and would not get sick from it again. Salmonella should have been killed in the canning process, but since it is a gas producer, the can should have been all bent out of shape, and I wouldn't have used the contents of that can. [color=red][b]The can was NOT bent, I AM NOT STUPID --- DEAR LORD! AGAIN, when this happened >> the food was sent for testing....IT WAS SALMONELLA. It CAN and DOES happen, rather YOU want to believe it or not ----![/b][/color] I thought I was being informative about educating you guys about intestional pathogens, [color=red][b]Where is the education? You failed to list several things that would be of some education, because...?? [/b][/color] but since you guys know all there is to know about food born illnesses, [color=red][b]NO, but obviously YOU do --- so post and educate us hillbillies. [/b][/color] I will not dare to suggest that you are wrong again, and will refrain from posting again. [color=red][b]Post facts that can be researched and proven or disproven. [/b][/color]

[quote name='"Gordonmom"'] I find three things amazing. One is that there are at least 10 known intestional pathogens, and all the dogs on this board have only gotten one of them, assuming that Hobbits pups died from fecal E.coli contamination in pups that had not fully had the chance to develope antibodies against a normal indiginous organism. [color=red][b]There is NO ASSUMPTION there/here/or otherwise --- only from you thinking that no one knows anything, they died from E. coli, I have the pathology report. [/b][/color] Two, that eveyone has spent the money to have their dogs stool cultured. [color=red][b]It was not a STOOL culture, it was a piece of the GUT sent to Pathology for culture; the entire puppy was sent --- blood cultures were done along with an extensive necropsy to find the answer for their death. [/b][/color] And three, dog intestional problems are usually caused by toxin producing organisms, as the toxins can survive the stomach acid, but no one has ever had a dog with one of these organisms, which I won't list as I am sure you guys know them already. [color=red][b]No, please list them. [/b][/color]

[quote name='"Gordonmom"']I never knew that just because you owned a dog that got sick that you knew everthing there was to know about the disease process. Your knowledge must be a wonderful thing. [color=red][b]Hopefully, this was not directed towards me.[/b][/color] I amd sorry for the loss of you puppies Hobbit. E. coli is a naturally accuring organism. [color=red][b]Yes, I am aware that it occurs in the gut of mammals. [/b][/color]Everyones stool is made up of 80% E.coli. Water can contain 80,000 PPB before it is considered to be a possible problem, and then in the normal heathly adult it rarely kills. [b][color=red]This number is wrong, non-polluted water MUST contain less than 200ppm/100ml. [/color][/b]Are you sure the pups did not get this from a fecal contamination on or in the mothers milk? [b][color=red]Yes, I am. I stated that because you said that you weren't sure that animals get E. coli. The E. coli was water borne from the mother drinking water from a water well (that was not known to be contaminated). She drank the water and then licked the puppy's mouth, herself and this is how it was spread. I spent lots of money tracking down the cause. [/color][/b]A young pups immune system is not strong enough to ward off a large onsult of any bacteria. As for the 11 dogs, that must have been a huge package of meat. [b][color=red]No, they did not; I was there, I know. They had the normal feeding. They were in pens, not allowed free access (at that time, different location from where we live now).[/color][/b] Salmonella is a bacteria that is normal in a lot of farm animals intestines, showing no illness to the animals. These can include llamas, chickens and cows. Llamas can pass Salmonella like crazy. Also, deer droppings have been shown to have the organism. Salmonella is charaterized by both PROJECTILE vomiting with diahrrhea. [color=red][b]Have seen both, first hand.[/b][/color]

I am not an antagonist nor a protagonist concerning BARF. I am, however; concerned with a balanced diet and over all nutrition. It appears that you have received pro's and con's for the BARF diet; personal experiences --- that is. Do you need more? What other questions do you have? Some dogs do well, some dogs do not >> it's up the person to decide which way to go. You may decide to try it and your dog not do well. There are pro's and con's in EVERYTHING concerning life, our (used generically to mean the world) dogs included.

[quote name='Gordonmom'] I get very tired of people trying to scare other people with bacteria stories. Salmonella very rarely kills anyone. And I don't know if dogs can get E. coli O:157 as people do, but that bacteria is not as common as the news would have you believe. We do not live in a sterile world.[/quote] Gordonmom: I am not trying to scare anyone. We had 11 dogs with Samonella about 4 years ago from raw chicken >> straight from the package, not rotten. Now, I can't tell you how it was handled during the processing. They did not die, but were very sick. We lost 8 puppies last year from E. coli (sent tissue off to TX A&M University, Veterinary Medical School), when they were about 3 days old. Nine years ago my dog became ill after eating a can of Pedigree (I stopped using Pedigree --- THAT DAY); again it was Salmonella ---- again, from chicken (not processed correctly). It can happen. Probably? Not likely. But, personally, I am not going to chance it and feed raw meat from the [u]store[/u]. Fresh kill, from the farm, different story. My dogs have eaten road kill, every kind of livestock feces in our pasture, some of them have eaten rabbit, squirrel, and even FRESH chickens (escaped from the chicken pen) ---- no one died, no one was even sick. Except one bitch did puke after having a horse crap eating contest with another dog --- quite disgusting.

[quote name='jcbrooke3']I just wish I could get on here, the post I put up, and find something constructive to talk about. I want to LEARN all I can about BARF. Up to and including your experiences! :) That's all. When I originally put this post up I was definately against the idea of BARF. [color=red][b]If you were "definately against" BARF, then why all the questions? It seems that you have your mind made up that you are NOT going to use BARF, correct? If you have this much reservation about using BARF, why wouldn't the bulk of your research come from outside sources (which would be many compared to the forum), instead of a dog forum? I would not feed BARF because of the possibility of Salmonella and [i]E. coli[/i]. Bones can splinter, regardless of the method/cooked or raw. Since dogs are different, what works for my dogs, may not work for someone else's dog and vice-versa. What a person feeds, or doesn't feed, their dog must depend on the individual digestive system of THAT particular dog and their nutritional requirements. There are vast amounts of information at the book store, internet, magazines, Universities, concerning [u]Canine Nutrition[/u]. I would start there and base my opinion from there. BUT, what works for one dog, may not work for another dog. If it works, GREAT....if not, then do more research. I'm not blasting you, just trying to understand why you are so upset? If you don't think you are getting the information that you need....why not look it up for yourself and then post what you have found to educate someone else (this is what you have said, that you wanted to educate people, correct)? [/b][/color][/quote]

Have you ever seen the cartoon by Gary Larson....the wolf having an affair with the Sheep?? Reminds me of this. This is too cute!

[quote name='Anonymous']I am a friend of the person who wrote the original megdog post, ... And thirdly many years ago megdog had a rough collie that had pups, and cared for them responsibly and had no trouble selling them, it is just the first time with this dog. [color=red][b]Maybe, because of their post, [i]"Will my border collie know when the time is right for her to mate, when she is in season. It is her first time"[/i]., many thought they were first time dog owners/breeders. If their rough Collie had pups before, why are they just now asking this question?[/b][/color] These people have owned dogs all there life and are animal lovers. They have all taken good care of there pets, and are not the sort of people who would enter this decision lightly.[/quote] [color=red][b]Again, if they have owned dogs [i]"all there (their) life", [/i]why are they just NOW asking this question? This is not the type of question that is normally asked by an experienced person that has had pups before. By the post there was no way of knowing anything other than .... a person going by Megdog, wanting to know IF THE [u]FEMALE[/u] WILL KNOW THE RIGHT TIME to breed?[/b][/color]

Whoa, whoa there Mallomar -- Smooshie was not directing that to you, it was a general comment on **SOME** owners and how they view their dog(s) ---- and surely not meant as sarcasm to you. Smooshie is not one to spout sarcasms.

[quote name='mouseatthebusstop']Someone I know bought a puppy from a centre which had many breeds for sale I said it sounds like a puppy farm but I was told "oh no we got all the right papers with her" she has got to be genuine :cry: :cry:[/quote] Mouse...did you slap their forehead and say "Heeello!" PUPPY MILL. Just because they got papers doesn't mean a thing. Yeah, it's so frustrating .... but I did get to do the "I told you so" a couple of days ago. A lady I know was looking for a puppy, so I told her I'd help her. She said she was looking at some at a FLEA MARKET. I went thru the whole long rant about puppy mills, health problems and their treatment. She said, oh this guy's good, because he has been selling dogs there for 10 years and he has 15 different breeds. I almost feel down on the ground! JUST BECAUSE HE'S BEEN BREEDING AND SELLING DOGS FOR 10 YEARS DO NOT MEAN THE KNOWS ANYTHING!!! Well, she just couldn't wait and ended up buying one from him. Guess what? The little female has kennel cough and is partially blind! .......damn, told you so!

I bet she had a passle of puppies! She looks like she is in really good shape and could feed the pups well.

Smoosh you are correct about the other white breedings. Looking at the picture, does she have a mask and a spot on her back (barely visible at the top of her back...looks like it is on her other side)??

I like "Coxers". What about, "Corbo's"? Borgis is cute, too. I use Yahoo photos. It has the same as MSN, and it's free, too. It has a lots of space and is user friendly. Getting back to the question at hand: Athena, please tell me what color the parents are? The only complaint I would see with a white Boxer is the related health problems --- SUNBURN >> cancer; deafness; blindness and then breeding this animal and passing these very undesirable qualities onto the offspring. The rescue in Dallas, Texas reported that something like 75% of the white Boxers that were/are in rescue were/are deaf. The white is a recessive gene and both colored parents must be carriers, or it could be a mutated gene. When breeding two white's together, the offspring will all be white. I just see loads of problems.

Corgilady --- you MUST see this website! Go to: [url]http://www.steynmere.com/index.html[/url] then click on "genetics", then click on Part 1.

Village photos are a little weird. If you post your pictures, they disappear --- if you are using Village Photos.

Puppy Mills are still regulated & Licensed by the USDA/APHIS. The regulations are posted on their website. It would be interesting to find out if, after WWII, the Puppy "Farmers" were subsidized by the USDA for raising puppies.

Carpet feels like grass --- soft and cushey; of course where she's used to using the restroom (so it's hard for a dog to distinguish between the two and it confuses them, so they go on the carpet). Hardwood floors feels like concrete --- hard & cool; where she isn't used to going. I read this in a book about dog behavior. Personally, I give dogs alot more credit; they know the difference between carpet and grass >> as they don't eat the carpet... :o Okay, SOME don't eat the carpet! :wink:

You have a beautiful yard. You must have yard-friendly dogs! :wink:

:evilbat: the government is EVIL.......

Bi-sexed (having both male and female sexual organs) is called a Hermaphrodite. Used to have a goat (stop laughing....) that was a hermaphrodite, his name was Gizmo (sorry Giz...it really was). He/she was the coolest goat. The other goats were horrible to him, because they knew he was different. His mother loved him just the same. You know, she must have been embarrassed to take him shopping! :wink:

Oh, I imagine you could. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss (for a while)...then reality creeps back in and you know the world does suck when it comes to the less fortunate (meaning animals).

Did anyone notice that when this feller talks about the owner of the dogs, not owned by him...it's a nickname, like --- "Chickee" and the woman's face is blocked out on one of the photographs, the ears are very shortly cropped on some of the dogs. These dogs aren't skinny in the eyes of dog-fighters, they are in "condition". By any other standards, they are under weight. Back yard breeder, doing extreme harm to the APBT as a breed. He is an irresponsible person who practices very poor judgement (if ANY) in breeding, nutrition, and general care of his dogs. God be with the dogs.

This will probably get moved, that's okay. There are several shelters in Texas that if a pregnant female is brought in, she is automatically put down. It's like under-the-table orders from the administration of the shelter. The only way I found out, is my friend that works at a shelter told me. I was appalled, sickened, just plain mad! The shelter(s) do not try to foster the female, adopt her with a puppy return policy --- nothing, she is automatically destroyed. She wouldn't tell the name or location of the other shelters (she know me too well), but the one she works for is doing this.

[quote name='corgilady']Deep.....not to be rude but you reaaaallllly need a new picture hon. :)[/quote] HAHAHAHAHAHAHA --- it's one of those pictures, the more you've had to drink --- the funnier it gets!