Hobbit

[quote name='Becka']Just curious, did the sister's both go into the same home together? How nice that you get visitation :) , I'm sure you must form attachements to these rescues and what a great thing to be able to keep in touch. I really admire you people who rescue and foster dogs. I just rescued an aussie/border collie mix from Texas. We flew him up her to Ohio in mid July. He is approx 1 yr old. I was going to foster this one, but I am too soft hearted and decided to keep him :P . He (Harley) makes dog number three for me. I can say having three dogs has been quite a challenge, but we are all adjusting well (...well, maybe Cody (my first dog) is having a little harder time with Harley, but we're working on it :wink: ). I noticed your statement about Jesse being stronger than me and knowing he can get away with it. I absolutely agree, but is there anything that can be done about his way of thinking? The breeder I purchased him from recommended using a pinch collar (haven't tried that; not sure how to use it properly, or if it is something I should even consider). She told me that you can not only use positive motivation methods with this breed (which is my preferred training method), and that sometimes you need to use aversives. She suggested I let her have him for a week, and she will "cure" him. Well, I have seen her in action and she can be be quite rough and firm with her dogs (but not cruel), and I'm not sure I want to send Jesse to her. What's your opinion on the breeders suggestion?[/quote] No, unfortunately :cry: they did not go to the same home. We had them for over a year; I just never found the right person to send them too. It was really hard to let them go, but they have wonderful homes and are the only dog in the family --- total attention just for them. One went to an elderly couple, the other went to a man and his daughter. Both girls have a life-time (return-to-me) guarantee, no questions asked and transportation will be provided. The Aussie/BC cross should do really nice at herding or anything else presented to him. I think Jesse may think he is a little higher in status than you. He's still so young, Aussie's do take a while to mature. You will notice a big difference in his attitude when you get to the new place, with a larger area, that he can really burn some energy off in. :wink: Your breeder is referring to a German Pinch Collar. Without personally knowing your breeder or her tactics, knowledge, experience, etc...I am reluctant to offer any advice, since I don't want to do her any undo justice. I would suggest that maybe you and Jesse work with her and not leave Jesse there by hisself --- would this work? You want a behaviour change, not a temporary fix. Personally, just having been around Aussie's and other herding bred dogs for years --- it's his personality, he'll get better with age and continued training. Sometimes, since every dog is different --- sometimes you just have to compromise with them. Every dog can not, some will not, ever be perfect --- no matter how much training they have, because they have a brain, they use it and they "THINK". So.....when are you going to post pictures of him???

Becka, Yes, you should have enough acreage available. You may be able to get away with a sign that says something like, "Not responsible (or will not be held responsible, or enter at your own risk) for accidents of any kind to persons or animals". I would definately check with a good attorney. The only Kelpie breeder listed in Ohio is: Homer D. Earliwine, PO Box 481, St. Clairsville 43950, 740-695-3120, email: [email]demorgan@1st.net[/email] I don't know this person, just obtained his information from the Kelpie registry. Try: "sheep free classified", "livestock free classified", "herding dog classified", something along that line in the search bar. What about your Aussie? Is he from herding lines or show lines?

bk -- that is interesting about the barking. Our Kelpies work very silent, they do not bark. I do have one that will bark on command. Their stance and stare is enough to get the livestock moving without all that barking.

Micheline --- has she always done this, or has she started lately not wanting to pee/poo outside? She maybe going thru the dreaded....and I mean dreaded....terrible two's!!!!! :o This may or may not help in any way, but here is a copy of an email that I sent to a person that had some questions about: a puppy that would not go to the bathroom outside (keep in mind that she just got him) and other housetraining tips. This tip was for a 4 month old Australian Kelpie (a herding bred dog) and not a small breed dog. Maybe there is something here that you or someone else could use. It's long, so prop your feet up and get a beverage! :wink: [b][color=blue] In reference to outside: Pug and his sisters come in the house and snooze under the A/C. They love outside here, because that is where "their" goats and chickens are. They were borned here and know every inch of the surrounding area. They are comfortable and feel secure in their area. He is just scared to be in the back yard, especially by hisself, because he doesn't "know" it. Once he gets used to it --- he'll be okay. It's just new and scary to him. To ease his apprehension, take him to the back yard and sit with him (in a lawn chair or on the ground, whichever is most comfortable for you). Take him a watermelon rind and some toys ---- and PLAY!! He'll have fun, you'll die laughing at his silly play tactics. Most of all he'll feel more comfortable about the big scary backyard --- that he is sure is full of monsters! hahaha. Once he gets "his" smells (body odor, peepee, poop), that will make him feel better, too. So he'll understand the housetraining rules, when you start to take him to the back yard, say, "Puggy, let's go outside, let's go outside" (the letters are capital just to show emphasis, not loudness, just talk to him in a regular voice) .... and as you are carrying him or he is following you, emphasize that you and he are going OUTSIDE. This is important for him to know the difference in OUTSIDE and INSIDE --- trust me on this. Okay, be prepared to stay outside for awhile, because he doesn't know that he CAN (is allowed) or is SUPPOSED to use the bathroom here (because this is new to him and not his regular home). When he goes --- say, "Puggy, good boy, peepee outside, peepee outside", or "puggy, good boy, poopy outside, poopy outside". I would repeat the peepee or poopy outside until he got finished, then really make a big deal that he went OUTSIDE. Clap your hands, hug him, really make him think that he just won the super bowl!! THEN, when you start to go back INSIDE the house. Tell him, (aways call his name first so, he will know that you are talking to him), "Puggy, are you ready to go INSIDE and as you are walking in the door or carrying him in ----- continue to say, "Puggy, let's come INSIDE or GO INSIDE". Emphasize the INSIDE. This will help him to understand that OUTSIDE is peepee and INSIDE is not. Using the peepee pads --- he will never understand to go outside, he will always want to pee in the house, because it's "okay" with you to do this. Watch him and when he starts to peepee, go to him and say, "Puggy, go OUTSIDE to peepee, OUTSIDE, OUTSIDE. Let's go OUTSIDE" and take him outside to pee. Try to catch him before he pees, this is better. His sister, Miss Kitty, knows what OUTSIDE means. It's up to me to understand when she is asking to go out. I also watch the clock, because they can only hold it about -- 3 hours. Night time is different, they usually go to bed at dark and wake up at midnight to PLAY! Then about 2 am they are back to sleep and back up at daylight!! So, to bed about 8pm, up at midnight to pee and play, back to sleep at 2 am and back up at 6am to pee. Yep, that's my night, too!! haha. [/color][/b]

Hey Becka --- I agree with Jacsmom, a tennis ball is an excellent idea. A loud squeaky toy will work sometimes. Anything to divert or redirect his attention to you. Unfortunately, he knows he's stronger than you are and knows he can get away with this. And it's an Aussie characteristic, too (for some, at least). They are wonderful dogs. I just placed two rescued sisters (blue merle and blk-tri) into adopting families. They will be missed :( , but I have visitation rights ... :wink:

Becka, Do you have any land around the pole barn? If so, is it securely fenced? You may also contact herding dog people, sometimes they also need a place to hold sheep/cattle dog trials --- they usually have their own equipment (portable panels and livestock :wink: ). There are several free classified sites on the internet that you could advertise. Use the search bar and put in the keyword(s) for whatever you are searching for. Another idea, have you contacted the local 4-H club? They may need a place to hold livestock judging, rabbit or poulty shows/contests, craft fairs, etc... And last, the most unpleasant --- do you have insurance? That is mighty nosey for me to ask --- just wanted to remind you that some people make a living out of sueing other people because they got a splinter on their property!!

Thanks for the compliment --- !!

[quote name='roo']Rude guest can still post in this section...... Roo[/quote] :oops: :oops: I re-read an earlier post and totally missed the "but" word in front of "everything". Howled way too soon.....!!!

[quote name='newfiemom']True Hobbitt...But just used to get a kick out of the whole thing. I think if we were all in agreement with rude guest, she would probably tell us we were wrong.[/quote] Exactly! You know, that is actually sad. She/he had some good information at times. I still think it was Nicki --- because it was the same writing style. Anyway --- it is unfortunate that some people feel the need to belittle and be hateful to other people so they can build themselves up and feel better about themselves. I'll argue with the best of them....but ONLY if I'm right and never when I'm wrong.

Roo --- How? I tried and could not reply. I could read, but not reply without signing up. ........ **GASP** :o It WAS a trick!! How did you guys do that??

Puppy Mills are regulated under the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA). They are in charge of licensing and inspecting the puppy mills. If you will go to the AKC website, they have listed how many dogs, to date, they have DNA tested --- at $40.00 per test. It did generate them some money. I hope at least some of the money went for researching cures and causes for diseases.

:o got that visual smell going on here.........

Jacsmom: We use a leave-in conditioner on the dogs coats. I have put Vit E oil in their shampoo and in the leave-in conditioner. A lady that I know used Vit E oil on demodex mange and it worked so well (for that specific dog). It worked wonderfully.

[quote name='Mei-Mei'][quote]On the other extreme --- cottling and too much pampering can be a set back, too. It's just a fine line between defeat and victory[/quote] I was going to say something similar, but you made the point so well Hobbit! :D A lot of people think that if the puppy is scared of something you should pick it up and kind of whine to it. That's exactly what you shouldn't do! Puppy should hear you say, "It's okay!" in a happy, confident voice so that she understands there is really nothing to be frightened of. Actually that works well with children too. Have you noticed that sometimes when they fall down and skin their knees they don't actually start howling until you start to make a fuss? :roll:[/quote] Oh yeah, exactly! It's human nature to want to snatch that pup up and make a big fuss, just like with a child. It's doing more harm, than good. A person has to know where to draw the line, because we all --- animals and humans, need some sympathy sometimes. K: we always make a big game out of LOUD noises, the noises that we don't want them afraid of --- like thunder. When it thunders, we'll say, "listen", "what's that?", "thunder?" --- all this in very happy voices, tickling, playing, laughing, clapping our hands --- quite comical!

Dog poo? You want to send *JUST* dog poo?? Where's your imagination? Let's mix it with some really smelly tuna-fish cat crap and pig mess! :lol: :lol: :lol: AND hope the bags don't bust in transit! :o Gee, hum....I hope they have a car and hope it's UNLOCKED!

[quote name='Aroura']LOL Tiggerress, you beat me to it! :lol: Nice to see you as a member now hobbit :D Gorgeous dog in the picture, looks a bit like my Tessa! :wink:[/quote] The dog in the picture is Sammy. She is a Kelpie. Here's a better picture of her: about 1/2 a second after I took this picture, she crouched into an intense position. I was too late on the trigger, she was off herding the goats. Some people think this is an aggressive dog stance, but it's just a working Kelpie characteristic. [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/7b5fe9f3/bc/Pets/Kelpie/Sammy+091002.jpg?bcPSvq9Azpy7bwai[/img]

[quote name='newfiemom']Darn!!! You guys took away all the fun!!! No wonder Rude Guest has not been around. I wanted some more drama!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote] Oh noooooo, it's better because "GUEST" can read but she/he can't speak!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[quote name='working koolie']Hey Hobbit did you get my email and pictures?[/quote] [b][color=green]No, I haven't received any pictures or email.... :cry: [/color][/b]

[size=6][color=green][b]THANKS EVERYBODY!! I thought you guys were TRICKING me! :lol: [/b][/color][/size]

bk -- you are absolutely right --- knowing and watching for signs of aggression and re-directing thier attention is the best. It sure is hard to do if the aggressing dog is OFF LEASH. A "blaster" horn works good. It makes an incrediably loud noise --- your ears will ring afterwards. But it gets their attention! Even by grabbing the tail, the dog can still and will turn around and bite you. Also, grabbing the tail can break it. If both dogs are wearing collars, timing is essential, two people are needed, if they are both going after it. If one has the other down, then the other person needs to be ready to take ahold of the one down and move him to safety or keep him from getting up and going after the other. While standing behind the dogs --- remember the dogs will be moving, this is why timing is essential, with hands outreached like you are going to grab the neck of the dog, hook your thumbs underneath the collar and grab the collar with your fingers and make a fist (around the collar) --- move your hands so that the pointer finger and thumb are up --- sqeeze and lift up on the collar and bring your hands together ------ CAUTION: this chokes the dog and this is exactly what you want to do. Use caution that you don't kill the dog, just get his attention. I may be blasted for this method, but when you've tried everything else and one dog is fixing to be killed --- this is an effective method. It should not be tried by anyone as you can get severely dog bitten. I have only had to use this method once in my lifetime, when a female Heeler had another female on the ground by the throat. She was choking the female on the ground. The female's eyes were going dull, she was doing the death gurgle --- I had no choice but to choke the aggressing dog down. I held on to the aggressor so she wouldn't start back up when she got her senses about her. This is an extreme method, used for extreme situations. If a stray dog had my dog down and was tearing him up or fixing to kill him, I would use any method to get that dog off my dog, even if it meant shooting the aggressing dog. I understand that it may not be the aggressing dogs fault for his actions, but at that point --- kill or be killed, I wouldn't have time to assess his personality. My situation is different, I live in a very remote location --- if another dog is on my property, it's either a stray or a wild animal (coyote, wolf, etc...). And NO, if someone is wondering ---- we don't shoot strays if they are simply on our property playing around and being nice. We have Turkish Anatolian Shepherds (Livestock guardian dogs) that take great insult to another dog being in their territory. I don't care what the book says --- there is no safe way to break up a dog fight. Yelling and screaming only makes matters worse, because it sounds like you are getting involved in the fight, too. A LOUD air horn or other very LOUD noises will sometimes work, sometimes the dog has tunnel vision and is so intense that all other noises and sound is blocked out --- nothing works. A dog fight, a real dog fight and not a fight over dominance, is nothing to be taken lightly.

First, there are two types of Australian Kelpies --- The Working Kelpie and the Bench or Show Kelpie. We have the working Kelpies. The following two registries are for working Kelpies only and not the show Kelpies. Our Australian Kelpies that are imported from Australia are registered with the Working Kelpie Council (WKC), in Australia. Our Kelpies that are USA borned are registered with the North American Australian Kelpie Registry, Inc. (NAAKR). FOR THAT REGISTRY: Both parents must be registered either with NAAKR or the WKC to be registered in the regular registry. They do have provisions for ranch bred working Kelpies that are not registered or if one parent is not registered. A person can register the entire litter and name each pup or they can provide the new owner with a signed registration application and the new owner can register the pup. A kennel name or Stud name can be reserved with the registry and used only by the breeder and is used in the first part of the name of the puppy. If the new owner registers the puppy, then pictures must be provided, along with the registration application.

The DNA testing is required after a certain amount of breeding from a stud dog. AKC is alleging this is not a money making scheme, but they ONLY allow the DNA to be conducted by thier lab. So far, no results from an outside lab is excepted. This is from AKC: [color=red][i]"AKC DNA Certification is required for Frequently Used Sires (FUS) before we can register litters sired by those dogs and born on or after July 1, 2000. A FUS is a dog who has sired 7 or more litters in his lifetime, or more than 3 in the calendar year. If your dog qualifies as a frequently used sire, then he must be DNA Certified to register more litters".[/i][/color]

[quote name='roo']Although no one agrees with puppy mills or puppy farms on here a lot a puppies get to their new homes traumatized, unsocialized and extremely nervous. How do you all socialize your pup, what do you do to make the transition into a new world easier for the pup. Roo[/quote] FIRST -- this is going to be long...I appologize in advance. Roo --- I think the first thing a person needs to look at is: is this puppy the product of unselective breeding, or is this "shyness" a result of a characteristic or is this just going to be the personality. Some Border Collies are just borned this way. Personally, this is a genetic flaw and the parents (if they are not shy) should not be bred together, because they don't "niche" or they both are carrying a recessive gene or a gene that codes for an undesirable characteristic, ... shyness. If none of the above applies, then you really have your work cut out for you. This is why it is so very important to ALWAYS let a youngster win at things (some people disagree) during the impressionable stage of life. This builds character and confidence. Just think, when you were a little child and everytime you played a game -- you lost. Would you want to continue to play this game? No, you wouldn't. Puppies are the same. It is ALWAYS so very important, also, that the puppy does not get hurt, no spanking, no yelling, no kicking, no swatting with a newspaper, NOTHING physically terrorizing ---- this will only make the situation worse. On the other extreme --- cottling and too much pampering can be a set back, too. It's just a fine line between defeat and victory. A person should sit and observe the pup and get to know each other, get to know how the pups thinks and reacts. Some need the pampering, some do not, but they ALL need nurturing. Some puppies will NEVER be the same, so a person must accomodate to the fact that the pup will always be shy. Some puppies will snap out of it. It's important to make the puppy as comfortable as possible, in a quiet environment without any other dominating dogs. Since every pup is different, what doesn't work for one pup, may work for another --- try different things. I would carry the pup and introduce him (used generically to mean she, also) to every room in the house. Set him down, close the door and make everything as peaceful as possible (noise can be added later). He will probably run and hide, that's okay. Get down on the floor and just lay on the floor with him and talk to him --- in a happy voice not a whiny, "poor boy" voice. Because he may view this as you are unhappy to be here also and are whining for mom. Spend a few minutes in this room and move to the next. Always talking to him and telling him which room you are going into, this will come in handy later during play time. Some people think that dogs do not understand English ----- did you when you were first borned? No....but you learned what every word meant with time and with your parents talking to you, didn't you? Yep....pups/dogs are the same. They have the capacity to learn sentences, and NOT just one words --- trust me on this. You may repeat the room introduction as often as you need too. Find him a nice, quiet place that is his domain, rather it be a crate (leave the door open for now) with a nice soft towel or in the closet. This is HIS house, HIS place to retreat when he scared, sleepy, or just wants to be alone. Let him know that it's okay to retreat into HIS private place --- this will make him feel that he has an out (the fight or flight thing here) --- that he CAN escape if the times gets too trying for him, it's all a comfort thing. You observe him, and let him observe you (watch you work around the house, or do everyday chores). He just doesn't know what to expect --- since the only people that he has ever seen in his life were either harsh, abusive, or ignoring --- he thinks the entire world is like that ----- you just prove him wrong. Show him that petting can be pleasurable, feeding time is fun (hand feed him), water is good, cold and is not nasty and stinky and he doesn't have to fight for food or water. Let him hide if he wants to and get used to the house. Talk to him in a happy (I'm so glad you are alive and here) voice. After he starts coming around and being more comforable, then you can introduce him to noises of everyday life. You would be suprised at how traumatic the sound of a vacuum cleaner, can opener, hair dryer, loud TV, loud music, etc...can be. If you have never heard an explosion, the sound would scare you, too.

Well, I tried to post several different times and it asked for a Username and Password. I could read the threads, but not reply. SO, maybe the request that was posted in another topic was honored. OR, my computer is screwing with me....... :roll:

Mei Mei -- I will speak in your defense. I re-read your posts and they don't sound insulting at all. Some people have different definations for different words -- like [i][b]MOSTLY[/b][/i] to me means: just short of [b]ALL THE TIME[/b]. Micheline: You are right, a person should not jump to conclusions and judge another person based on their conclusion. BUT, you also jumped to conclusions when you said that some people [u]"implied" [/u]that you were abusive and the following about Mei Mei: [color=red][i]Up to this e-mail mei mei I was fine. Well at least a bit better. I am sure even you (whom I don't know but to me seems to think she knows everything about humans. Maybe I am wrong at least, I hope I am wrong. If you feel bad about something, why not write to them or at the very least ask before trying to insult and hurt them. Things would go a lot better around the world if people acted kinder and did not jump to conclusions all the time. IF YOU ARE NOT SURE ASK [/i][/color] You are jumping to conclusions, too. A person jumps to conclusions when they are not given all the facts. Without all the facts, a person tends to, or feels the need to, fill in the empty blanks (it's just human nature). My defination of the word "MOSTLY", that you used, was that she was kept in a crate "MOST OF THE TIME", meaning; without being redundant :o , "most of the time". I don't know any other way to state it, other than "just short of ALL the time". "MOSTLY" is surely not, "SOME" of the time and is quite a bit longer than "A LITTLE WHILE".