Hobbit

Has anyone heard of "electric" fencing? It keeps the dog from pushing down the fence, digging under and jumping over. I would chose electric fencing (NOT the underground kind where the dog has to wear a transmitter collar) over chaining a dog anytime.

HF --- this Bud's for you, Babe! :drinking: :wink:

[quote name='roo']Hobbit. thank you for that post, it was heartfelt, sensible and hardhitting. while your there give Sissy a huge kiss and hug for me :lol: roo[/quote] Thanks......I just came in from outside hugging on all of them. :wink:

Thanks, Ickle. We have dogs because we love and adore them. To say that they are to make us money, is like saying our children OWE us for bringing them into this world and we are out to recoop some of that money we've spent on them. It's UNCONDITIONAL LOVE --- totally, no strings, no contracts, not here to make money OFF of them --- just to spend it ON THEM!! :wink:

[quote name='Bensam']I am biting my tongue, said it was my last post BUT - Hobbit - you said it - the conformation must be correct - are you referring to the conformation standard as approved by the Working Kelpie Council? If so, that's the one which is the same as the show standard, so how are they built differently? And let's not quibble over an inch in height or a dropped ear. We are talking angulation, length of body, feet , boning, basic working equipment. Koolie, again I do not mean the furnishings, look beyond those and you will find the structure of the working dog and show dog are basically the same in those all important features. Most breeds had a purpose and/or job way back and many of them are still being bred with the physical characteristics needed for their particular job being kept to the fore although, admittedly, a lot have no longer the inbred instincts to work. I have not disputed this just tried to make the point that structurally they should not be so different.[/quote] Conformation meaning: not pigeon toed, or splay-footed; not straighted hocked, not camped-under; not ewe-necked or bow necked; etc.... Again --- just because the *standard* says that they should be bred that way, does not mean that they are. The GSD did not start out with hips and hocks dragging the ground; now they do. Bensam -- I'm not being grouchy with you, but there is a *VISUAL* difference (not to mention mental difference) between the Bench bred and Working bred Kelpie, Border Collie, and other herding vs show bred dogs. Structure has nothing to do with it, because hide the breed name and some dogs look exactly alike on paper ---- in real life, they are not. If you don't raise, work or around herding dogs --- you can't see what we are talking about (please, I'm not being grouchy or being hateful). Inbreeding/linebreeding, outcrossing for one specific trait can change the structure of a dog. It can change the angulation of the hips and hocks, chest, shoulders, legs, etc.... I see what you are talking about ---- it SHOULD be the same, but it is NOT.

Horsefeathers --- great post Anne --- well said. Sasha, K and Roo --- add me. I wasn't going to say a word, but starting feeling a need to just express my anal glands.....I mean my opinion. Ebby --- the Chow mix wasn't the first dog that you've had to rehome, is it? Didn't you say in one post that the Chow mix was kept in a kennel? And that his intelligence was awsome? Does or doesn't the new dog have all his titles? Why was he *retired* from showing at such an early age? Not that you will respond, but please tell me what you know about genetics? Genetics is the foundation of a breeding program, isn't it? Wednesday, we took Guy (the Kelpie pup) to the Orthopedic surgeon for his preliminary health exam, post-surgery that is scheduled for Tuesday. The surgeon is going to try to repair his front leg, which was broken in 2 places when he was 4 months old. Guess what the cost is? $3750.00. Does HE OWE me anything? No.....I owe HIM. [b][u]I OWE him[/u][/b], because I gave him my promise that I would always protect, love and care for him no matter what. Do I EXPECT him to repay me? No, not in a million years. Am I breeder? No, I am a "Steward of the Kelpie breed". We strive to better the breed, to ensure the herding instinct and desire to work is nurtured, kept safe and continued. Do I breed for profit? No, there is absolutely NO profit, whatsoever in breeding!! If you think there is, you have NO idea what you are doing. Preventative health care, maintainance, food, emergency health care, is NOT cheap. I know where every single puppy that we have produced is located, still know their birthday, know their name, know how and what type of livestock they work ----- they are guaranteed for LIFE, with a written contract, that if for what ever reason that they can no longer be kept --- THEY COME BACK TO ME -- NO QUESTIONS ASKED. Do we rescue? YES, we have rescued many, many dogs in the past and still take dogs in from irresponsible breeders looking to make a "profit" that DIDN'T. We took in 18 Kelpies from just that sort of individual not too long ago. The dogs were the ones that suffered. Do I expect ANY of them to repay me for that? NO.....not in a million years. We --- including other persons on this dog forum --- do what we do because we love our dogs, we love our breed, we are passionate about what we do, and are heartbroken when someone comes along and says, "I want to recoop some of my money".........they are no better than a puppy mill, or a pet shop owner, or a back yard breeder. Our recent rescue --- the Kelpie girl, Sissy --- lived in a very small kennel, one that was never cleaned out. She was not vaccinated, not dewormed, starved, filthy, stunk, and had her own fecal matter encrusted in her feet. She had to lay, walk, eat, sleep and smell her own excretement -- daily. She has a clean place to eat, sleep, walk, play, smell and is able to be with us everyday. She is well fed, vaccinated, on HW preventative and is LOVED. Will she be a puppy machine? NEVER! Do I expect her to pay me back? No, never in a million years. Everytime I look at her, I get angry at the person that produced her *** NOT for producing her *** but for NOT taking care of her, not checking up on her, not looking after her well being, not being there to protect her!! If WE as human beings don't PROTECT the less fortunate....who will?

Koolie -- she reminds me of a NcNabb.

[quote name='working koolie']Hobbit got a question as you know my breed is predominately merle coloring and about 6months ago I aquired a black and white female who is from a red merle father and a blue merle mother. The mother is from a blue merle to blue merle mating and the father is from a red merle to solid red mating. How did two pups in this litter end up solid here is a photo [img]http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/koolie/kooliedogs/franc.jpg[/img] :roll:[/quote] Koolie: Are you sure the sire is her sire (and not another dog)? Are you sure she isn't a phantom/cryptic merle? How many pups in the litter were lethal (blind, deaf, or other health problems)? How much white does the father, mother and thier pups have on them?

DARN --- I thought it was the *tea-cup Chi* 8)

[quote name='bk_blue']Does anyone know why American versions of some dog breeds are larger than others? eg. US Dalmatians are larger than Aust. Dals, so are heelers and I think Kelpies too. American Labs are bigger than English ones too aren't they? Is it something in the water? :wink:[/quote] Some of it has to do with the terrain. Smaller dogs do well in the thick brushy areas and larger dogs do well in the areas that are void of trees or that have trees but not a lot of thick under brush. Larger dogs are preferred by some cattle producers over the smaller dogs that some sheep producers prefer.

Thanks Ickle. Corgilady --- I don't know. I think I'd like to change it. bk --- defenceless?? LOL LOL LOL LOL --- boy, does ol' Hobby have you fooled. Jacsmom --- I tried to bribe the goats with pecans. Their lips are sealed. :lol:

:(

That would be nice. Her toy is still missing --- I have looked everywhere for it. I guess I'll start offering a treat reward for it's return tomorrow! :roll:

Hey, I don't know about you guys---but I'm partial to the "Weenie Dog Nationals". :P

[quote name='Anonymous']Someone said you have to breed a merle to get merle. Not true. Merle can result from Harl/harl, black/harl and Mantle/harl also. I have never bred a merle or saw one bred (my friend and I bred show dogs) but have seen many of them born to these color parents. Also, harl is a pattern, not a color. That is to say that it is a pattern with a white base and another color patches. You can have brindle, blue, and fawn patches as well as black. These are very undesirable and are thought to be assosiated with health risks (again, I think due to poor breeding practises).[/quote] This is from a genetics site: [i][b]Merle is a part of the pattern of ragged black spots seen in the harlequin Great Dane. [/b]There appears to be an additional gene which removes the dilute pigment, leaving the "blue" area clear white. The fact that harlequins continue to produce merles argues that animals pure for this proposed extra factor may not exist, and one possibility is that a homozygote for this whitening factor is an embryonic lethal. Interestingly, there are recent reports of Shelties born with a harlequin pattern, but in this case the "blue" area actually develops color with time, winding up a light silvery blue. These dogs appear to have larger than normal black areas, at the extreme being so-called cryptic merles, that is, no blue is visible without an extensive search. Other shelties born harlequin or "domino" retain the white body color. Although Danes are usually solid color, the harlequin color description includes a preference for a white neck and front. Since the black patching is as apt to be on neck and front as anywhere else, this requires incorporation of a gene for white spotting (probably irish spotting, si si). Given that SS double merles seem to fare better than their si si counterparts, I would expect that double merles from harlequin Danes with patched fronts and necks might be healthier than from those that fit the standard better. The harlequin description also faults black hairs in the white area. The harlequin - silver blue pattern in Shelties could be an extreme case of black hairs in the white area. Both harlequins and the silver-blue merle Shelties have occasional patches of gray (merle?) as well as black, though this is not considered desirable.[/i] Therefore; in order to have a merle or a broken pattern --- one parent MUST be dominant for that gene. Two solid colored dogs can not produce a merle, or broken patterned color.

[quote name='gooeydog']Thanks everyone :lol: That pretty much answered both of them. Hobbit, I don't know what color Annie's parents were, but she is AKC registered, so if it would say on there, I'll try to get the papers from my aunt and see what they say. I remember my aunt saying that she was registered as a red dapple, but she got her from a local petshop known for selling poorly bred or sick dogs, so who knows if her papers are even "real", or if the information on them is valid. She does have some darker hairs, mostly along the spine, ears, and tail.[/quote] If the darker hairs are black, then she is a sable (could be a merle/dapple -- you just can't see the red merle pattern). Yeah, petshops --- shaking my head trying to figure out how they stay in business!

If you look at many "standards" without looking at the breed that it goes with (staying in the same class or height/weight category), they all say about the same thing. Just because the wording is the same --- does not mean the dogs will look the same. If a good Working dog is an inch over standard, he isn't sold to a pet family, put down or never worked because he is an inch too tall. He is kept and worked. If he/she is an exceptional herding dog, then she/he may be bred. Can you see now what I'm talking about? Natural herding instinct with a strong desire to herd is taken over almost everything else. Conformation is important, because to be able to work long hours, everyday, in all terrain and conditions --- a dog must be correct.

Here is an interesting website of Danes. [url]http://www.greatdanes.net/colors.htm[/url] [url]http://home.flash.net/~dby/chlinx.htm[/url]

We have garden or writing spiders everywhere. They are friendly. I help them by feeding them grasshoppers. They are a beneficial spider and live anywhere they want at our place. Sometimes, I have to move them off the stock trailer.

GREAT STORY, Jacsmom. :lol: :lol: Maybe that's why she let me pet her, so I'd shut up!! LOL No, she doesn't sleep with us --- Hobbit very muchly objected. She has met the other kid-o's. She is not sure if she likes any of them, yet. She is still pretty afraid of them. Today, she was wagging her tail, but would scrap with someone if given the chance.

bk -- Deafness can be caused by several factors; mutagens, terratogens, chemicals, genetic defects, illness, injury to the bitch while invitro, etc... The only way to obtain a merle patterned color is if one parent is a merle (including phantoms/cryptics). If someone said the parents, of a merle pup, were both any other color, other than a merle and their parents were not merle (so you can rule out phantoms/cryptics), then that pup was sired by another sire. Merle = MM (homozygous dominant, usually lethal); Merle = Mm; Non-merle = mm (homozygous recessive). Two non-merle pattern colored parents (that are not phantom's) can not produce a merle pattern --- the gene is not there.

[quote name='corgilady'][color=blue]Wow my Koda is so obviously a "working" look as well as herding-crazy.... no longer have a farm but now have the dog to work on it :lol: :lol: :lol: Yellowlabs and Gigi....anyone who thinks they want a border collie, please borrow mine first! I would enjoy the break!!! [size=2]the little darling is sprawled across my lap at the moment, wearing purple bows that the groomer put on his ears this morning[/size] :roll: [/color] [color=darkred]Oh, the shame of bows in such a big-boys ears! [/color] :lol: [/quote] [color=darkred]YES, and borrow mine, too --- they MUST go out at 2am to check on "their" goats, and then wake me up every hour thereafter to see if I'm awake and want to go check on "their" goats! [/color]

[quote name='Bensam']OK, here I go again, sticking my Aussie neck out! On the pics. of the working vs show breeds that I have seen on the forum, I can't believe the types are so different in America. The basic conformation of the show dogs here in Australia is, under the show coat, the same as the worker. While the working instinct may be diluted, the anatomy to cope with the work they are bred for is maintained. There is NO way any Border Collie could be mistaken for a Rough Collie here. This applies to the Border Collie, Kelpie and the Lab. just three breeds mentioned. There are Labs here which are duel titled, both conformation and working. Admittedly the workers in any breed will probably have deviation from the show standard as far as, eye placement, size, ear placement, shape, cosmetic things like that, but the basic structural form to allow for the work to be done should be there. There are numerous sites for show kennels in Australia, if you look at those, past the glamour, you will see a structure capable of working. Site for BC's- [url]www.geocities.com/westurnborders/[/url] I'm not getting into any discussion re the working instinct of these dogs just trying to point out that physically there should not be a great difference. Please don't be cross, Hobbit, I know exactly what you mean, but I cant see any reason for the show dogs to be so different in type and can appreciate your point of view, as I hope you can see mine.[/quote] I do appreciate your point of view, but.....show dogs are built differently from the working dogs. The Working Kelpies that I know and have seen from Australia --- look nothing compared to the Show Kelpie from Australia. Maybe, we just aren't understanding what you are saying. There is a visable difference between the working dog and the show dog. Koolie is right --- show people on one side, working people on the other --- there is no meeting in the middle. When you breed a strong working line to a show line that does not have a strong instinct or desire --- you are taking away from the working instinct and changing the body shape of the show dog. Despite what some people advertise --- it is NOT the best of both worlds. I'm not being cross with you, I think I just dont' understand your reasoning.

Girls,...... GIRLS, .......... only spankings can take place in the Harem! 8)

[quote name='K']I am betting one small, hardly used,patially trained child on FEMALE too :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote] Can she do chores? Haul water? Move hay bales? Drive a tractor? Slop hogs? Feed chickens? Saddle horses? :wink: :wink: