Hobbit

[quote name='humboldt505']my friends rat terrrier is having puppies. it is her first litter and was un planned. the ultra sound showed 5 puppies. i am going to try to help her by finding out as much as i can about the birthing proses. any advice? i know this is not the ideal situation, but it has presented itself so can anyone give advice or recomend a site? thank you[/quote] Humboldt505 -- check your private message box, I sent you a message relating to your question. :wink:

I haven't looked at the picture, yet....but will. A merle that has no white is called a "self" merle.

[quote name='Jacsmom'][url]http://www.katewerk.com/color.html[/url][/quote] Thanks! :wink: As long as person knows which color is dominant and which is recessive, everything is simple.

[quote name='Jacsmom']Red Eye Gravy...That is like a heart attack waiting to happen..Grease and coffee! :o[/quote] mmmm mmmm good!

You have Schnauzer's, right? Is there a website concerning their coat genetics? It's all basically the same.....yet different.

:lol: BUSTED!!! :lol:

[quote name='working koolie']I believe my dogs are descendants from b/collies if anyones got research on coloring /blue eye/ whiteness please let me know via email or pm if you want I have SO MUCH to learn Im now in the position of being registar for working koolies so if I can pass this info along it would be a step in the right direction[/quote] Koolie --- that is the belief and from what I've read the Koolie is almost the same as the Australian Shepherd. In fact, the Aussie has been called the "American version of the Koolie/Coolie". Just remember -- Dogs are either genetically either black or brown (red). Many genes act upon other genes and individually to cause effect. Meaning: an epistatic gene will cause another gene to act differently. There are so many factors to consider. Too much to try to go into on a post. BC's are one of the breeds with two kinds of blue--dd, sometimes called Maltese blue, is what is usually called just "blue" (a uniform blue-gray color where the dog would otherwise be black) and blue merle Mm, which is a patchy dilution. If your blue merle was DdMm and your blue was ddmm, about one pup in four would be expected to be ddMm, merle with the black areas diluted (to gray or light blue) by the dd dilution and would be called "Maltese blue dilutes". The presence or absence of tan points is independent of either dilution gene and currently there is some controversy about the genetic mechanism. Are you wanting to breed more blue-eyed dogs or breed it out? Simple, if you want to breed it out. And, I guess simple if you want to breed it in, too. The color of the eye has nothing to do with vision. The white can also be "factored out or in" depending if you want less white or more white. Don't forget about the "Self-merles" and "Phantom or Cryptic merles" -- 8)

[quote name='working koolie']Hello genetic nuts :lol: I was wondering if anyone could tell me about research done on color genetics merle in particular , Hobbits given me some good websites but what Im also after is where abouts the research is conducted ( universities people ect) . I would also like to ask is the merle gene of a great dane the same as a b/collie ?Im completely frustrated by the genetics of my breed and need to have hard facts to pass on to others involved with koolies As it stands 90% of the breeders in Australia breed merle to merle I know this is dangerous and every time I try to explain to owners they give me the old but thats about shetland sheep dogs /great danes not koolies .I believe my dogs are descendants from b/collies if anyones got research on coloring /blue eye/ whiteness please let me know via email or pm if you want I have SO MUCH to learn Im now in the position of being registar for working koolies so if I can pass this info along it would be a step in the right direction[/quote] Koolie, basically --- it is the same, but different. Now, that you are confused --- don't look at the site for Dane coat color. Instead, view the site concerning Australian Shepherd coat color at: [url]http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/3559/index.htm[/url] There is a genetic website, that goes into detail about the color genetics. This website will explain it all. You can email the author and she will be more than happy to return email the answers. Here is her information: Sue Ann Bowling, North Pole, Alaska [url]http://mosquitonet.com/~sbowling[/url] (general) [url]http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/DogPage.html[/url] (dogs) [url]http://climate.gi.alaska.edu/Bowling/Bowling.html[/url] (professional--retired) Her email address is: [email]sbowling@mosquitonet.com[/email]

[quote name='Poofy']Newfie mom... I gave you reasons for a test breeding. If want examples of scenerios you can read Hobbits or when I finish mine you can read it. Hobbit: I have seen Border collies come in merle, as well as sable... Still they go back to similar origins of the sheltie don't they? I know the irish shelties sure do look like a border collie.[/quote] Yes, Border Collies do come in merle (red & blue), sable, red (ranging from creme to chocolate), black, blue (ranging from very light to very dark). The person given credit for producing the Border Collie was a Northumbrian farmer, Adam Telfer. He succeeded in a blend of hard, powerful dog that were difficult to handle, control and were rough on stock with a dog with an milder temperment, more style, stealth, keen instinct, and that used "eye" over roughness. They are decendants of "working collies". In the 1800's there were many sheepdog-type dogs being used. Everything from very rough to very mild. Adam Telfer was able to combine the two and produce the dog that we know today as the "Border Collie".

:lol:

Oh yeah, I agree with Mei-Mei. She's seeing just how far she can push dear ol mom.

We vaccinate our own dogs and livestock. Just a personal thing.....if I only had ONE dog, I would take her to the vet and let him do it. Normally, (some vets, I should say) will vaccinate and give the dog a health check. Usually, the health check is free. Some vet DO charge for this, though.

[quote name='Jacsmom'][quote]Oh yeah, the couch defeetitator[/quote] OUCH!! That is gonna hurt!! You know if she doesn't have it we just gave her the idea!! :o[/quote] My [b][color=red]BIG[/color][/b] mouth!!

Mei-Mei, I thought that was right about the biscuit actually being a cookie in some places. So, the yanks are crazy for giving their dogs "biscuits". :lol:

[quote name='Poofy']On your BC delima... Its pretty common for collie type breeds (oddly those that carry the merle gene)...to have reaction to heart wormer and other womer chemicals, particularly ivermectine. It has something to do with a low blood brain barrier. i would have to look up my notes on it if you want more info.. [color=blue][b]They are Border Collies, solid color (black/white & red/white). None of our herding bred dogs ever (EVER) are given anything that contains Ivermectrin. We use Interceptor, which is Milbemycin. Oh yeah, I preach and have preached on this board about Ivermectrin and herding bred dogs. :wink: [/b][/color] Also, I do know about the " I have an eye" mentality...unfortunately your eye isn't the thing needed to figure out the risk factors...those with that attitude tend to be missing that vital organ... ;) P.s. Having been a smart a** and made that statement...I will add this...I have met a couple of people who were sevants when it came to pedigrees...they just some how *knew* what would happen.... but those types are a needle in a hay stack.[/quote]

[quote name='gigishiba']Oh Hobbit, you can rest assured [b][i][u]I [/u][/i][/b]wont call you a butt kisser. [size=1]Am I kissing butt now??[/size][/quote] :lol: :lol: Jacsmom was feeling fiesty the other day. It was cute, actually. :lol:

That's a relief.....unless......she was bred at a time that they didn't see..... :o , ...um....if they are curly puppies --- it's those RARE Labradoodles!

[quote name='Poofy']Test breedings should never be done willy-nilly (padgett said that too), they are *risky*. And only when the benefits will out way the bad. The breeds that most rely on the willingness of breeders, to do test breedings, are those with small and limited gene pools. Sometimes for the benefit of the breed...you HAVE to know how something is inherited.[/quote] I understand and actually agree....to a point. BUT...there are too many people out there that think "Test-mating" is "okay". It's NOT, should not let's say, to be done by the person that is not well versed on genetics. Color coat test breeding, I can see. BUT NOT genetic defects. Too many people have the "I have a good eye for a good dog" attitude. And would not be willing to put down a defective dog and wouldn't even know it if they had one, because some of the defects could be hidden. And you know what I'm talking about, when I say hidden.

......okay, I will go further. Real life: Wylie (Border Collie) was bred to Marley (BC) -- both good working dogs, both healthy, both checked by vet. Bred for the ranch. One pup had a seizure when he was 9 wks old. Unknown the cause; could have been the dewormer or vaccine. He seized approx. 15 minutes after the dewormer (Pyrantel). Never had another seizure (that we've seen). Farfel (Wylie's son) was bred to Ozzy (sister to Marley) -- produced one pup. We kept her for the ranch. Good working dog, wouldn't trade her for a million dollars. At 2.5 yrs old, 12 hours after Interceptor --- she had a seizure. It took her months to recover. Recover, meaning --- she wasn't the same after the seizure. She is much better now and we watch her more closely. Now, I could do the test mating to see which line it's coming from. I have opted to [b]NOT[/b] do this. The seizures, could be totally environmental, could be genetic, the vet does not know --- he can't find anything. BUT, to be sure --- we have chosen to [b]NOT[/b] ever breed these dogs again, ever. That's just our ethics, though.

[quote name='newfiemom']When I said to please explain the reasoning behind test breedings.[/quote] Newf -- I know you asked Poofy, but .... here goes. Again, I would like to say (AGAIN) that genetic defect test matings should NOT be conducted by the lay person and should only be conducted by researchers that are interested in being able to isolate and eliminate the gene....and NOT done by a person that is breeding for profit. Hypothetical scenario Newf: Sire and dam have never displayed any signs of epilepsy. Sire is mated to dam, the resulting progeny produced has two pups that are epileptic. (for practical purposes, lets say the epilepsy is not the result from chemical or environmental factors, but is genetic). A person could neuter/spay both parents and be done with it. The rest of the litter, even though they have displayed NO signs of epilepsy....may be carriers. It would be safe, or to be safe, the entire line should be neutered/spayed. If this was an endangered species, this would not be a good thing to do. A TEST-MATING: Breed the sire to a different dam, for this to work the dam MUST be clean (no epilepsy). If the litter produced contains an epileptic or carrier, then the sire is affected (with no signs) or he is a carrier. The same can be done for the dam. If pups produced show no signs, this does NOT mean that she is 100 % clean, subsequent test mating should be conducted. Both sire and dam could be carriers --- thus producing epilepsy in their progeny. One could be a carrier --- the way to confirm this, is to do a test mating. This is not always 100%, because of many, many variations that could occur. A test mating of color: Scenario: Two sisters, same litter are bred to the same male. They both produce a white offspring (white is not a color for that breed). The only way to find out who is the carrier of the gene, is to do a test breeding. Breed sister #1 to a different male --- resulting offspring normal color. Breed sister #2 to a different male --- resulting offspring normal color. Breed sire to different female or females --- resulting offspring normal color. Conclusion: they are both carriers for this color. The only to re-produce this color is for those sisters to be mated with THAT sire. It does not mean that EVERY time you mate them, they will produce a mis-mark, it just means they carry that recessive gene and if "Mis-marks" are not wanted then, do not breed them together. I can see, from a genetics standpoint, the need for test-matings --- but only when it's done by a researcher for RESEARCH purposes and not by the "out-for-profit" breeder that wants to "SEE" of they can produce a genetic defect in the next litter. This was in a hurry, so if I typo'ed, forgive me. If something doesn't make sense.....I typed it wrong....just ask me.

I MUST be tired......I'm getting seniler by the moment!

[quote name='Hobbit']FIRST --- cake. SECOND --- biscuits, gravy, jelly, butter THIRD --- COOKIES!!!!!! ....and then there's "eggrolyn", [i][b]everytime[/b][/i] I see her name I WANT AN EGG ROLL! YUMMY. :multi:[/quote]

We reeeeallly need a chat line, huh!?!

Personally, I do not think that dog aggressive dogs should be PTS, if the owner is responsible and knowledgable enough to "properly" handle the dog. Our ACD's are all dog aggressive, that is just their nature. They all want to be alpha over each other. They are confident with dominant personalities ---- but, this is what we must have in a dog that works for a living. It does wear you out, but I wouldn't put any of them down. I know their personality, their quirks and deal with them (individually) accordingly. They know that they are SECOND to us and when we say, "enough", they'd better stop....imediately. If we were lacking in our "dominance" there would be some major dog fights. I'm not talking about a bite here and there, but full blown, wanting to kill each other, dog fights. We MUST have control and maintain our status all the time. It does make you weary. The Kelpies are totally different. Easy going, no complaining, no fighting, just all work, no non-sense.

FIRST --- cake. SECOND --- biscuits, gravy, jelly, butter THIRD --- COOKIES!!!!!! ....and then there's "eggrolyn", [i][b]everytime[/b][/i] I see her name I WANT AN EGG ROLL! YUMMY. :multi: