Hobbit

Original comment deleted, it was tacky ... now that I read it again.

[quote name='Jacsmom']Now I wonder how that works genetically??? OOOhhhh Hoppit?? :lol:[/quote] Obviously, she comes from an affected and clean *or* affected and carrier parent. UNLESS --- it's just learned behavior. :lol:

[quote name='Hobbit']As with every walk of life, there are good breeders and bad breeders....ranging from very good to very bad. [/quote] [b]Good breeders:[/b] Most breeders of herding bred dogs will not sell a puppy to a pet family. It is unfair to the pup that has a strong herding instinct and desire and even more unfair for the pet owner. It is a falsehood that herd-dog breeders are ONLY breeding for one thing; herdibility. Without excellent conformation, the dog could not do its job. He would break down and not be able to continue. Many hours, months and sometimes years are spent perfecting the working ability in a dog, not to mention years of selective breeding to produce that dog. The majority of these breeders, if the dog shows no interest in herding, they are put to sleep. They are not sold to pet families, but are destroyed. Herding dogs should have natural instinct, natural ability with a desire to work any breed of livestock. Their intelligence is such that it makes them the easiest dog to handle and manage. They really don't have to be "trained" to herd livestock, because the instinct and desire is there (or should be). They only need to be managed in a way that they understand what the handler needs them to do and where to go. They usually have several generations of their dogs. There are some that register, some do not. The one's that register their dogs usually know every dog in the lineage. Have personally met the owner or know someone that has or can at least tell stories that have been told to him about the owner and the dog's ability. The ones that do not register, still have several generations of their dog and know information about several generations. The health of the herd-dog is very important. A sick dog or one that is not genetically correct (health wise) can not do his job. He will be unable to continue the long hours and hard work that is sometimes needed for a herd-dog. Unfortunately, accidents do happen to dogs that work for a living. Broken limbs, jaws, ribs, hips are not uncommon. "Capped elbows" are common as are torn ligaments, cuts, bruises, and snake bites. Even fatalities do occur. It is always heartbreaking to have a dog get killed while working. The dog is more than just an employee, it is also a partner/companion. It is not uncommon for the larger ranches to have 50+ dogs. If the more experienced dogs are injured or killed, then they must have another dog ready to take it's place. The owners are always starting the training of a dog, fine tuning, or getting a dog to a point that he's ready to work on his own (with his handler). I'm reluctant to use the term, "finished-dog", because a dog is really never finished --- they learn something everyday. [b]Bad breeders:[/b] Like any bad breeder of any breed of dog. They do not care about the dog, only if the dog can generate funds. They are handled roughly and most are ruined by the handlers harsh words and heavy hand.

As with every walk of life, there are good breeders and bad breeders....ranging from very good to very bad. I'm going to finish this later, it's quite lengthy and I must get outside and do some work.

YES, please email it to me. I'd love to see it. Yes, it sounds like the male is a double merle. If in fact he is --- and if she is a solid (and being black), the entire litter should be merle. It will be a hard road for you to convince people that have been doing it their way for generations upon generations, that breeding merle to merle is not necessary to achieve "merle". Breeding for herding instinct and a desire to work is more important than color. I look forward to the color scheme. :wink:

[size=6][color=red][b]LESSONS.......LESSONS......WE NEED LESSONS........[/b][/color][/size] Anyone heard from Corgilady?

:lol: :lol: .....it's sooooo theraputic! :lol: :lol:

[b]Some [/b]of the show breeders that I am familar with do not care if their dogs are carriers or affected with PRA, as long as the dog can show and win --- that is all they care about. I continually hear, "yeah, he's a carrier, but he's a champion so we're going to breed him (over and over)". They are not knowledgable in genetics, using what knowledgable they have gained from listening to other breeders with their same mentality. They are in it for the money, prestige and name and care nothing for the dog ---- just so that he wins in the ring. The very few ethical show breeders that I have met, it was all about the dog and his health, instead of always winning. There are good ones and bad ones.

Some Border Collies are sound sensitive. Some bloodlines carry a genetic trait of being fearful. It may be a personally trait and there isn't much you can do, but just deal with her how she is. If you've taken her to classes, socialized her and nothing seemed to help. Then I would think it was inherited. Always let her win at everything she does, this also will help to build her confidence. Personally, I would not scold her or lose my patience with her for being fearful, she may not be able to help it. Always be on a happy note around her. Some Border Collies are so sensitive that they try to bear the entire weight of the world on their shoulders and they pretty much think that everything that happens is their fault (good or bad).

Are you going to keep him? Or just keep him until he's ready for a suitable home? I am so glad you done this for him. So sorry about the GS that didn't make it.

Yep. I love to talk about my dogs. You guys are the only ones that don't find it BORING and avoid me!! :lol: :lol:

Personally, I would not do the "alpha roll" on any of our dogs, because I would be setting myself up for nice lacerations to my face. There are so many things that are preceived as being "dominant" to the dog. Any slip and they think they have gained in status. Being alpha is a tough job and some dogs want to forego that position.

[quote name='gigishiba']OOOH! I wonder if licking a human face till it's raw would count????[/quote] A doggie facial?? :P

She has some mental issues going on. Why did she come to this board to begin with? AND she has YET to define her breeding program.....only to get defensive and say we are interrogating her! Nooooo, just nosey! :lol:

I say we have been invaded by crabs (ocean ones) and vote them off Paradise Island. We have asked, more than once and have been nice everytime. She has a hugh chip on her shoulder. Some people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions and blame everyone else and everything around them for their downfalls in life. I say.....vote her off! She will NOT stop, even after Jacsmom asked nicely, and others too.

USMC --- please check your private message; I will pm you and we can talk about some scenario's and things.

Marble, it sounds like you are doing good with her. It also sounds like she is ready to do advanced things. She may be just challenging you, because she's at that age.

TLC --- have you, you personally, actually read the Animal Welfare Act? Or are you going by what someone has told you? Read the rules and reg's.

Like I said.... Write, call, email your Legislators, Congress, Representatives...etc...instead of waiting for the train to hit you, at least TRY to get off the tracks.

[quote name='Jacsmom']Bullygirl the looks of a show dog and working dog are different in many breeds. Doing this will end up with dogs that cannot show and dogs that cannot work. Some breeds to show and work and there is no breeding of a working line to a show line it is all instinct of the breed.[/quote] Thanks for bring up show vs working. I was going to do that, but I could hear the can opener opening another can of worms. :wink: You are so right.

[quote name='gigishiba'][quote name='K']You just tell me what you want rid of Hobbit...your wish is my command oh Master [size=1]Am I kissing butt good or what??[/size] :D[/quote] [size=1]Umm, K, don't you know it's MY job to kiss Hobbit's butt???? DUH![/size][/quote] :lol: :lol: :rofl:

The best thing to do is to contact your Legislator and Congressman and voice your opinion. The USDA does not regulate the amount of show cows, horses, sheep, goats that a person can have. There must be monies set aside, incentatives, cost shares etc... for a person to be brought into compliance. Without that, this is not likely to happen any time soon. The "goverment" is more concerned about the pending war with Iraq then this dog issue.

Because it has to be a "Federal" rule for a State to be able to enforce it. Unless the State is willing to pass ordinances. If Congress ordered the USDA to take on this project and write rule and regulations; these rules and reg's would then be delegated to the States (the 50 states) for enforcement. Like --- the Department of Environmental Quality is afforded the right to enforce the rules and reg's by adopting the Federal rules/reg's for water and air quality. Let me clarify something: Depending on how the rules and reg's are written --- the USDA/APHIS would or could enforce or they could delegate it to the State level. There must be funding for inspectors before anything can/could be done. There are more pet owners than Legislators, Congressmen, etc... and some of them have more than 3 intact females. If a State felt it was in their best interest, politically and financially, then they could surely request the delegation.

[quote name='TLCPETS'][quote name='Hobbit'][quote name='sandyb']I did also mean the rules and regulations. The AR fanatics want it to be enforced for ALL breeders. of course that is not possible considering all the one time breeders there are, breeding thier pets with no knowledge.[/quote] I am still not worried. I have worked for the government -- both at the Federal and State level. There simply is not enough inspectors to go around. There is not enough money to fund a project that would be of this magnitude. USDA has other more important issues concerning *human* lives. It may have to go to the Supreme Court and it well may pass. USDA will shake their heads and say, yes sir/yes ma'am, and it may take an inspector 20 years to get around to all the places that are perceived to be out of compliance.[/quote] Either way I think a lot of breeder will just stop breeding.A lot will not, but when/if they get caught they will have to pay the price.If it is placed in the (rules) they can confiscate the dogs if in violation they can start over but now they are (on the list).JMO.[/quote] USDA is not an enforcement agency. Any confiscation would have to be done at the State level if delegated.

[quote name='TLCPETS']How many dogs do you folks think a breeder should have before they should need regulations.I think 5 living in a barn outside or 5 living most of the day and night in pet taxies in the spare room/basement is too many.But 5 running through the house all trained or in a fenced back yard is admissible. But every-one has different opinions as to what should be permitted.Some-one has to make some rules for everybody.[/quote] It is the amount of or the LACK of care that is of concern. Care being the care of the animal.