gooeydog

I'm pretty sure bull/bear baiting had been illegal for some time when AmStaffs were accepted into the AKC. And by that time, the focus had turned more towards matching dog against dog, which was still legal. It's much easier to hold a match between two 30-50 lb dogs in secret than it is to hold a bullbaiting contest between a 50 lb dog (sometimes several)and a chained bull. *edit: that doesn't mean that no AmStaffs have ever been matched against a bull, simply that it doesn't make up a large part of the breed's history (as that particular breed, if you wanted to include the time when they were all considered APBTs, then it's a much bigger part of the history).

The AmStaff's ancestors were used for bull baiting and bear baiting... but AmStaffs were not ever used for those purposes. Bull baiting/bear baiting was illegal at the time that the AmStaff breed came to be, so they were never involved in such "sports". What they might mean by AmStaffs being used is that the APBT was, and some APBTs were also registered as AmStaffs when the AKC started accepting them. They were still APBTs first though, and any bull/bear baiting was done while they were APBTs, not AmStaffs (not sure if that made any sense at all :oops: ). AmStaffs are bred primarily for conformation events, though some breeders are concerned with preserving working ability in their dogs.

Sorry I wasn't more clear about that, Alicat. Haley only has 3 legs, one in front, two in back, and the change I've noticed is in the remaining front leg. She's a pit bull (though she's a rescue, so there's no guarantees that' she's "purebred", and around 2 1/2 yrs old, has been a tripod for almost 2 years. It's hard to explain exactly what her leg is doing, so here are a couple pics that show what I mean a little better. Hope this makes it a little more clear :oops: Foot/leg turned in [img]http://www.seemesmile.com/photos4/2792980a.jpg[/img] Another [img]http://www.seemesmile.com/photos4/2792983a.jpg[/img] Pastern down [img]http://www.seemesmile.com/photos4/2796969a.jpg[/img] And for comparison, here's one from last summer [img]http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Mar/20033287628899744287802.jpg[/img]

I've noticed a few things lately about Haley that have me concerned. First, it seems like her front leg is "bending" in more than it was before, and her foot is more centered towards her body. I've heard that this is common, but I'm just wondering if it's going to be a problem (not that there's much we can do about it) later in her life. Second, when she stands/walks/runs/hops, her "ankle" (errm... wrist?) bends so much sometimes that her pastern is almost completely on the ground. She's just under 50 lbs, and not fat at all (my mom and her vet thinks she still needs to gain a lb or two, I think she's fine where she is), and it's more noticeable when she's running or walking (hopping), but sometimes if she's tired, she does it while she stands, too. She's not on any joint supplements, but I'm going to check with my mom about getting her on one (she can't have gloucosamin/chondroitin because of her diabetes, so any other suggestions would be great). The vets said there's not much we can do about it, just try to keep her "high impact" exercise to a minimum. If anyone has any other ideas, I'd really appreciate it :lol:

The generally accepted "definition" of a Bandog is a cross between a bull breed and a molosser breed. The most common cross is Neopolitan Mastiff x APBT. The reason for crossing the breeds is to hopefully obtain the "ultimate" protection dog... wary/protective like a Neo (or other mastiff breed), athletic and "game" like and APBT (or other bully breed). I can see how such a cross (if it turned out well) could be great for that type of work, but don't agree with them being sold to/bred by the "average" dog owner, and wish word had never gotten out about them, as they aren't a dog for amateur/irresponsible owners. Some of these dogs are stable, healthy (both mentally & physically), seeming to have inherited "good" traits fro mboth breeds.... others are complete messes, unstable, unhealthy, and dangerous. People who fancy the breed will argue that a good "Bandog" is better at [i]their[/i] job than any other breed, opponents of the cross will argue that a "bad" one is more dangerous than any other dog in existance, because they may have the human aggression of a mastiff (not saying that all mastiffs are people-aggressive), and the tenacity/strength of a pit bull. I feel that if people want to breed these dogs for this purpose, they should keep their lines under close wraps, NOT sell to the general public, only sell/give the dogs to homes that they KNOW can handle such a dog, and be willing to cull any dogs that are substandard either physically or mentally (especially mentally, as an unstable dog of that size could easily kill someone). Of course, when BYBs start cashing in on this new "breed", all the attacks will be added to either the "mastiff" count, "pit bull" count, most likely the latter :roll: . Another thing, serious breeders of these crosses aren't just breeding F1 generations over and over (like most "poo" breeders), but seem to be trying to acheive a uniformity in working ability and temperment (they're supposed to be a working breed, so the breeders aren't particularly worried about physical appearance). I don't particularly like the idea of crossing breeds, but I can see doing so if there's not a dog available that fills that purpose (not sure whether there's a need or not in this case... most of the mastiffs have been pretty much ruined by BYBs and people breeding only for conformation, rather than working ability, but there are still a few good working mastiff breeds out there). I don't agree with crossing breeds just to get a dog that "looks" stronger, tougher, or "better" in some way. That's what gets most working breeds into trouble in the first place.

Courtnek, have you tried just dropping the long lead and letting them drag it around? That way they'll be "free" (they usually forget about the line after a few minutes of playing), but you can still grab the lead if they ignore you when you call them. Since they're pretty big dogs, and can cover ground quickly, you might want to just get a 100ft rope (as thin/light as it can be and still be strong enough to hold them) and use that.

It doesn't matter if they make up a new name for them, they'll still [i]look[/i] like "pit bulls", and they'll be under the same BSL as the other "pit bulls" will. American Bulldogs aren't pit bulls, yet they're included in the definition of "pit bull" for most BSL. And most BSL also states that if a dog looks to be at least part "pit bull", it falls under the term pit bull. Lisencing(sp?) won't work unless the entire area (and everyone in it) is willing to report unlicensed dogs. The ACOs aren't the ones who see the dogs out in the yard every day, or see the dogs roaming every night (unless they drive around looking), and fail to report it because it's "none of their business". That's the main problem with relying on a licensing system to control dogs/owners.

[quote]I think I did contact them a couple of years ago when we were really at our wit's end! They turned us down...... [/quote] Sorry :-? Did you adopt her through a rescue? If so, maybe contact them, I know that some rescues set aside a little extra in case one of their adopters ends up with a dog with serious health issues, or maybe they could help you raise the money. That's the only other thing I can think of though.

You might want to contact IMOM, and see if they can help you with the financial part of the treatment. Their website is [url]http://imom.org/[/url]. Good luck :wink:

They are great rescues, and I wish there were more who were that careful with placing a dog. They actually face a lot of problems similar to those that border collies face... people buying/adopting them because they're cute, or because they heard this or that, then realizing they're too much dog after a couple weeks and dumping them or bringing them back. That's why rescues need to be extra careful in placing "high drive", or "high need" breeds/dogs. By this: "How many dogs that are treated that way actually make it to be successful in the pit?", I just meant how many dogs that are abused, starved, trained on "bait", etc actually become successful pit dogs? Not many. Think about it... if you wanted a dog to be at it's strongest, and fittest, would you starve it? Not likely. If a dog was known for biting people, would the "ref" want to be in the pit with it and possibly have to help seperate it from the other dog? Doubt it. How many dogs that need "practice" on a dog with no teeth or a cat can hold their own another healthy, fit, pit bull of their size? See what I mean? Those kinds of things just aren't rational things to do if you want a fighting dog. R&P, the two pit bulls haven't been allowed to meet off-leash yet, only a couple times on leash so far. Haley is defensive with other dogs at first, then tries to assert herself over them, and this includes leaning over/on them, shoving and bumping into them, etc. Goo will tolerate a lot, but only so much, then she'll warn the other dog off (and if Haley didn't heed her warning, we'd have some big problems). So far, Haley has only wanted to play, and they were even playbowing at each other the last time they met, so things do seem to be going fairly well. We haven't tried Haley with any of the others yet, as they're nowhere near as tolerant of "rude" dogs, and would start something immediately. It definitely helps though in Goo's case that all the dogs she's currently around (not including Haley) seem to accept that they're subordinate to her, and don't constantly push the "issue".

That's true about the majority of dogs being confiscated not being owned by "professional" dogmen, but at the same time, in a lot of those cases then, the problems the dog has wouldn't even be from being a "fighter", but from the treatment it got from the ignorant owner trying to follow the plan the ever friendly ( :roll: ) media has laid (lain??) out for them. How many dogs that are treated that way actually make it to be successful in the pit? I'm not arguing with you, because I do see your point, but at the same time, I have a problem with classifying any dog that has "issues" or bite marks on it as a "fighting dog" (or "bait"), and any fighting dog as a dog with "issues" (not saying that anyone on this board does it, but there are a lot of shelters, people, etc that do). They can speculate on the history, but unless the dog is an owner drop-off (and even then...), they'll never really know for sure, and the only way to accurately find the great dogs (to put up for adoption) and those that are not good cantidates for adoption (who would either be sent to a rescue for more work or PTS if there wasn't an opening/they would be too hard to "fix") is to temperment test every dog that comes through, and not just skip over those that are said to have a "shady" history. Prairie_ gurl, pit bull rescue presents more problems than say, collie rescue, because pit bulls (and other bully breeds) are often dog aggressive, and such dogs can't be housed together in runs or in some cases, even in the home. They also need individual playtime, exercise, and training, since you can't just take five of them out at once and turn them loose to burn off some energy. Pit bulls are usually pretty high energy dogs, and will lanquish without attention, exercise, and mental stimulation. That alone creates a time and space issue... then there's the problem with screening adopters... there would be a lot a inquiries from people who wanted a pit bull, but were in no way, shape, or form able to care for such a dog. These people would vary from the well meaning, but ignorant, to the people who want a dog to guard their house and make puppies so they can sell them. There are rescues for pit bulls, some are pretty big, and can take on a lot of dogs while still being able to give them the care they deserve. One example is Spindletop APBT & AST refuge ([url]http://www.geocities.com/thepitbullrescue/[/url]), I think they house at least several dozen dogs on-site, and there are others in foster homes. There are a few other big rescues, like BADRAP ([url]http://www.badrap.org/rescue/[/url]), and a lot of smaller ones. R&P, Goo is female, and two of our other 3 dogs are female as well. The main factor in them all getting along is that they're all fairly submissive, and if they start to get on her nerves, she will warn them away, they listen, end of conflict. I'm aware that this could all change in a split second, but we know their personalities well, know what they'll tolerate, and work around all that. Goo stays in my room while no one's home (usually it's only an hour while before I get home from school after my mom leaves for work), and there's a babygate up across my doorway all the time so the other dogs can't go in there and harass her while she's sleeping, etc. [/i]

Goo- Always seems so serious, but when she's not in the "public eye", she's a bit of a goof. Ignores the other dogs, their silly play, and even their squabbles, but has something like a nervous breakdown if I happen to act like I'm going to play with one of them instead of her :lol: . She likes to harrass the other dogs sometimes, but usually would rather just pretend they're not here. She's the alert one of the house, if she hears the slightest little noise, she wants to see what it is, and loves to watch "activity" when we're outside. She gets slightly disturbed when I'm late coming home, and confiscates various things of mine to hide under the bed. Annie- Go, go, go... that's all she ever does. It seems that Goo's her "idol", and she's always tagging along behind her like a little kid with their big brother (something Goo isn't always happy about). She'll do anything for a ball or tug, and is known for table surfing if anything edible is left there. When there's something she wants, she tunes everything else out, and is completely focused on her "target" :roll: . Joey- Super submissive, if I so much as look at him sideways, he rolls over and "freezes". He's never had much interest in toys, but is starting to like to play fetch. He's also a complete "mama's boy", and will run and hide if Goo tries to play with him (she knows that now, and will hop in his face barking, just to scare him :roll: ). He sometimes gets kamakaze though, and will fly at her, barking and snapping... at which point he is removed and crated until he comes back to his senses :lol: He likes to play with the other dogs, and zooms around in big circles when let loose. Casey- Not the smartest dog I've ever seen :wink: , but she loves people. She likes to fetch the toy, but then looses interest halfway back and wander off to do something else. When my nephews are here, she follows them around all day, soaking up any harassment/attention they'll give her, and is often subjected to being their "sidekick" when they play army and things like that because she's the only dog who won't leave when she sees them pulling out her "costumes" :lol: . Haley- Loves people, but has absolutely no manners. She'll come flying out of the room and start tugging at your pants legs, or sleeves, because she's so excited to see you. She still doesn't understand that the cat will not back down from her, and has been swatted by him at least 5 times in the past month. She's got a lot more energy than before, but once she's tired out, she'll just flop out and snore :lol:

We have one rescue pit bull, Gooey. She'll be 10 yrs old in a couple weeks (well we really don't know when she'll actually be 10, but she's gotta have some sort of date :lol: ), and we've had her since she was around 7-8 months old. Here she is (actually this is a few weeks old :roll: )... [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2718752a.jpg[/img] We also have Haley, a 2 1/2 yr old pit bull, but she's not really ours so I guess she doesn't count :lol:

[quote]If pits that were fought are in family homes, than Hustan we have a problem.[/quote] Here's a pit that was fought, and is currently in a family home.... doesn't look to be too problematic, does she??? [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2373982a.jpg[/img] My point is that you can't automatically assume that just because a dog has been/is fought, it is a danger to all people/animals. They need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, with only those most suitable for adoption (keeping in mind that most potential adopters aren't going to want a dog with a lot of "issues" that they'll have to work through) being put up for adoption/sent to rescues. That won't save a lot of them, but it's the best that can be done since not many people can handle a high drive, energetic, strong dog with a high possibility for animal aggression. [quote]But, dogs that were TRAINED to be aggressive are another story. Like someone said, they train these dogs by setting them after cats, dogs, birds, rabbits, and HUMANS too.[/quote] Anyone who knows anything about pit bulls, nevermind about getting one to fight, knows that they don't need to be "trained" to fight. The desire to fight is an inborn characteristic... the dogs either have it or they don't (of course, some may have more desire than others). And since this desire to fight is inborn, it needs no encouragement (though that may make it more pronounced). Furthermore, pit bulls are such superior fighters that it's pointless to set a pit bull on a cat, bird, rabbit, or dog of another breed; as these animals will not put up anywhere near the same fight as another pit bull, so nothing will have been accomplished by doing so. It's also completely absurd to set a pit bull you want to fight on a human... as there are always humans in and around the pit when the dogs are fighting.

Is he on scheduled feedings? If not, then that might help (you could always go back to free feeding after he had better control if you wanted). Also, I wouldn't stand outside with him for an hour if he won't go, as this may lead to him "playing" you in an effort to be allowed outside longer.... he'll think "if I go quick, they take me right back in, but if I hang around and wait a while, we just stay out here". Take him out to his "area", wait 5 mins or so, and take him back in. If he "produced", he gets to play outside for a few minutes before going in (or if he wants to go in, go ahead and let him in), then you don't have to worry for a while. If not, then take him in, watch him, and take him back out again in 15-30 mins. Same as the last trip. Maybe you could have someone come and take him out once or twice while you're gone?

I always make Goo go first down stairs, because once she gets going (the stairs to our basement are really steep, and there are like 15 of them, so she can really pick up some speed) she has a hard time stopping, and if I stop, she'll usually end up crashing into the backs of my legs (not intentionally). She does wait at the top for me to tell her to "go ahead", then stops at the bottom for me to catch up. For the outside stairs, we usually end up going down at the same time, or I'll tell her "behind" or "go ahead" if there's not enough room.

I agree with Nancy B... sure, some people are going to read through your site and then continue on to the other links or buy some books, but there will always be others who will look at it, say "well, if it worked for her dog, then it better work for mine", and use what you've written without any consideration as to whether it fits [i]their[/i] dogs' needs or not, either because they're too lazy to do more research, or too ignorant to know that they should. Then who knows what will happen if your choice of methods don't fit their dogs... but we all know who will end up paying the price.

I don't agree with only using praise for a reward, as it can be nearly impossible to motivate some dogs off of only praise if you want to do serious training and get consistent results. Two of our dogs work mainly off of praise (one almost entirely), but I sporatically throw in other things so they never know what [i]might[/i] happen if they do what I say (ie: most of the time when they listen, I'll just praise, etc, but sometimes I'll have a toy/treat with me and reward them with that instead. It keeps them interested and motivated. If you were out with Hazel, and she saw something she really wanted, took off after it, would you be able to get her back as she was in pursuit, with her knowing that the only thing she was going to get was praise? The other two dogs are working mainly off of food rewards, but they do the command before they ever even see the food, and they don't always get food for it, only for especially quick responses, etc. With Annie, I also do most of her training during our play sessions and runs in the field, because she gets bored with regular training sessions (and those are the situations in which I'm most likely to [i]need[/i] her to listen). I also don't use whole sentences when I'm talking to them, as this isn't tea time, it's stuff that's important and may one day save their life, so I want to know that they're "clear" on everything I say and understand it. You also have to take into consideration that not everyone will want to/be able to use the same method of teaching the commands, and either add more ways, or links so they can read about other ways to teach. And you should also suggest that if they are having difficulty teaching their dog, to seek the help of a professional trainer, or a behaviorist if the problems are beyond the scope of a "regular" trainer.

You can soak those rope toys, freeze them, and give them to him (actually any piece of fabric would do, but you don't want him to be raiding the laundry later, so be careful in your choices :lol: ). You can also freeze kongs (stuffed or not) and give him those. Another thing thing that I tried last week with our dogs (none teething, but I'm looking for ways to cool them down a little on hot days), was to fill a tall, thin container with water, freeze it, then give the "ice stick/cube/whatever it ends up as" to them. Those bones Mary's Mama was talking about are pretty cheap online, like $4-$5, but I have no idea how durable they are.

[quote name='laduenda'] 1. How do you teach the dog not to eat the crates they are crated in? Some of you mentiuoned before that if they were properly crate trained they would not do that how do you "Properly" crate train them? [/quote] The idea behind good crate training is for the dog to [b]like[/b] being in the crate. To do this, you want good things to always happen in the crate. Things like eating (feed the dog in it's crate), special toys/treats, extra praise, etc should always happen when the dog is in it's crate. This way, it will look forward to going in there. Make sure they get plenty of exercise before you crate them, as not getting enough exercise is a major contributor to boredom and destructive behaviors.

Goo has that same toy, just hers is green instead. [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2637151a.jpg[/img] The dogs also like these things... "Holee rollers"- You can shove a smaller ball or toy through the holes, and they'll be busy for hours trying to get it out [url]http://www.petsmart.com/dog/shopping/toys/toss%5F%5F%5Fretrieve/products/product%5F25030.shtml[/url] The "box"- Goo, Haley and Annie all like this one, though they all have different methods of getting the balls out [url]http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=12&pCatId=7574[/url] And here's something "mentally stimulating" that you can make yourself... just throw a small toy the he likes in a (preferably clean) cinder block. He'll have to figure out how to get it out. You may eventually have to help him though, if he can't find a way to reach it. [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2373893a.jpg[/img]

The reason there is debate over whether PennHIP or OFA is better for evaluating hips is that they measure different things. PennHIP measures the amount of laxity in the hip joint, which contributes to HD, and OFA (I'm not real sure on this, so somebody tell me if I'm wrong) evaluates the joint itself... looking for any noticeable signs of HD. It's up to you which you want to use, learn about both, then pick the one that best suits your needs. I would definitely CERF the dogs (every year for breeding stock), as PRA is becoming more and more common in APBTs. I wouldn't worry about BAER testing dogs/pups unless you find that other dogs of close relation are turning out deaf/hearing impaired, or you suspect something's not "right" with one of them. I believe there's also a cardiac evaluation you can have done, but I'm not sure if it's anything different than what your vet would do...

If everything concerning dogs was "natural", then they wouldn't be here. There wouldn't be "breeds", and dogs wouldn't have the traits they do (which were probably considred "deformities" or genetic anomalies before people decided to breed [b]for[/b] them. So you wouldn't even [b]have[/b] Ben (at least not in the same physical form) if it were not for the fact that people have domesticated dogs, taken away their natural traits, and to some extent, instincts, and done what they thought was best. So the argument that neutering is not natural is flawed, as there are many other "un-natural" things that humans do to dogs every day... a dog living in a wooden house, a dog being walked on a leash, a dog not breeding every other dog (of the opposite sex) it sees, a dog not attacking any other animal/person it sees as prey... all the things above are things that dogs "naturally" don't do, but that [b]responsible[/b] and in some cases even irresponsible owners have them do. Sure, there is a risk involved in neutering a dog. There's also a risk involved with walking a dog, breeding a dog, letting a dog live in your house, letting a dog outside, even feeding a dog. There may be some pain involved post surgery... but it's certainly not comparable to the amount of pain he'll be enduring if he gets hit by a car when he bolts out the door in seach of a female in heat. He would also be in a bit of pain if he ripped off a toenail (or toe) trying to dig through the door to get to your bit*h. He can also get pain medication after he is altered, so his pain would actually be minimal. He'll also have to endure a lot of pain if he gets prostate or testicular cancer, two common forms of cancer in unaltered male dogs. It's not normal for an animal to be "screaming" after being altered (especially not for an entire week), and I hope your friend took her cat to the vet to make sure there wasn't something else wrong with it. You don't know 100% that Ben's allergies are caused by genetics, you also don't know 100% that they [b]aren't[/b]. That alone is enough to make a [b]responsible[/b] dog breeder alter their dog, as they will not take the chance of their dogs' offspring having to endure the same health problem. You've also said in other posts that he is shy/nervous... not exactly a temperment you want to chance passing on to his pups. There is no guarantee that his pups would inherit the genes he has for "good" teeth, so why risk the mental/physical health of the possible pups just for a "maybe"???

Rally-O (rally obedience)- like "normal" obedience, but the scores are based more on how much the dog seems to be "in tune" and enjoying itself ,than about performing the exericses to perfection Herding "Canine freestyle"- dog dancing Earthdog (not sure if any of your dogs could do it though, as usually it's only open for small terrier/hound breeds) Tracking Protection sports (Schutzhund or ring sport) And these aren't exactly "sports", but things that some dogs do enjoy... Therapy work Search and rescue

It would also be a good idea to look into the "puppy lemon laws" in your state, as well as other rules and regulations that breeders/brokers/retailers are supposed to follow. I know that most states have a law where puppies can't be sold until they are "x" months old (I think it's 8, but it may vary with where you are). They may be in violation of this or other reg's, and I think that if they are, that's another thing the media should know about :wink: