gooeydog

K, our yard is unfenced... my dad started putting up a fence (5 ft) about 6 yrs ago, thinking that Goo would be able to run supervised in it for exercise... of course halfway through the building process we found that she had no problem clearing a 6 1/2 fence, so he put the fence on hold for a few years (he meant to get taller fence). The neighbors we have now have claimed about 10 ft of our yard for their own, so we have to get a surveyor to come and tell them where their yard [i]really[/i] ends before we can put up another fence. These are the same neighbors who let their people aggressive sharpei and lab run loose, even though they've been picked up by AC once and been asked by us several times to keep them in their own yard. We do have part of the yard fenced, a garden (3 1/2 ft fence), and a little yard for my grandparents dog (4 1/2 ft). I don't really know if we'll ever get a good fence up, since we have water on two sides (if the dog really wanted something, it could jump over and swim around the fence), and the housing boards would likely jump on us for "blocking the view" for others :roll: if we put a privacy fence in front of the water.

Marble, if you do decide you want an APBT, you're best chance at getting a non-reactive one is to go through a reputable rescue and get an adult or young adult. Dog aggression usually shows between 1 & 3 yrs, so by 2-3 yrs you should be able to get a good idea of what you could be dealing with. If you're really interested in the little pup at the shelter right now, why not see if you can foster her?

[quote name='newfiemom']could it be like individual people have different apptitudes and intelligence? I wonder if dogs are like that.[/quote] That's what I was thinking... or maybe it's something to do with different types of training? What I mean by that is that some dogs are known to be very soft with people, so if force training was used, they would likely shut down and be viewed as "difficult" or untrainable. And if they were using positive methods, some dogs could be very hard to motivate. Those dogs would also be viewed as "difficult". Also, the amount of dogs in each "sample" of the breeds may have varied, causing some bias in them (ie: there are a ton of labs in obedience competitions, whereas you don't see many chis in obedience)

[quote name='Anonymous']all these people forget to tell you that the reason pit bulls are dog agressive is because they lead it on (the owners) if any of you pit bull breeders so called no about game dogs and your posting that no matter how you raise them they will be dog agressive that is totally untrue I am a dog trainer for problem dogs I raise and breed pit bulls. and have met LOTS of breeders and I see how they treat them they keep them on chains (log) feed them alot less , hardley interact them with other dogs , and make a noise like (Skkkkskkk) for there dogs to watch other dogs , my pit bulls are fine they are together all the time , I can take them with me anywhere . and yes they are Game pit bulls. so it really ticks me off seeing someone say pit bulls shouldnt go into parks are be kids pets or treat them like there a different kind of dog all together.[/quote] Sooo... you obviously have gametested your dogs, if you're so sure that they're game, right? But of course, you don't encourage dog aggression in your dogs, right? That's a [i]really[/i] amusing concept :lol: . The reason many pit bulls are dog aggressive is because the "breed" (including APBTs and to a lesser extent AmStaffs in this case) was selectively bred for over a century for fighting... not trained. The drive to fight is in many of them, the same as the drive to retrieve/carry is in most retrievers. It may never manifest, or not be as obvious in some cases, but it's almost always there. How do you, a "knowledgeable pit bull breeder, and problem dog trainer", explain away the pit bulls that are raised from birth in a loving environment, with tons of socialization, then at the "magic age" (usually 1-3 yrs) suddenly start displaying dog aggression. These dogs have never been goaded on by their owners, but are acting merely upon instinct. Similarly, how do you explain the dogs that have been beaten, fought, etc, yet still are not outwardly dog aggressive? It all comes down to genetics, some have innate dog aggression, some don't, and some have a varying degree of dog aggression. Pit bull owners should know not to let their dogs loose in dog parks, because if even the slightest incident occurs, their dog will be blamed, and may ultimately be killed because of their owners stubborness/ignorance. Even if the pit bull won't start a fight, most also won't back down if they're caught up in one, which can lead to serious/fatal injuries to the other dogs. Children are, in most cases, not suitable owners for pit bulls... they are not responsible enough, and not strong enough to restrain their dog or break up a fight should one occur. It's foolish at best to tell people that pit bulls are "just like any other dog", because they're not, and rumors like that cause as much damage to the breeds as the "lockjaw" and "turning" myths.

[quote name='ArtfulDodger']Docking and cropping are purely for the "look" of the dog. They serve no other function than cosmetic and aesthetic.[/quote] Not necessarily... many of the hunting/protection breeds are docked because they have slender tails that are easily broken/split while they're working. And cropping is/was supposedly done on some hunting/protection dogs so there's less to grab, and because ear tears also bleed heavily and are hard to fix. Of course those dogs that need to be cropped/docked because of their function are the minority, and most dogs that are cropped or docked are done so for cosmetic reasons. Out of the two, I think cropping is usually a more difficult/painful procedure... it's done at 8-14 weeks, and is considered a surgery, whereas docking is done at 2-4 days, before the pups nerves in that area are fully developed.

[quote name='ArtfulDodger']Maybe it was intense prey drive Gooey?? Even still, I think prey drive can be overcome by pack structure rules. [/quote] I agree that even intense prey drive can be controlled in most cases, but this dog may never have been taught what was suitable prey and what wasn't, and so didn't even realize that it was "against the rules". Also, it may have been "containing itself" while they were there (to avoid punishment), but when they weren't, figured there weren't any consequences, so why not go after the baby? We have a Mini Dachsie, she's got high prey drive (if it moves, she wants it), and I wouldn't trust her (not for a second) with a young child/baby unattended, but she's ok if I'm there. You also have to consider that a lot (definitely not all) of small dog owners let their dogs get away with things because they're small and "can't hurt anything"... then when they [i]do[/i] hurt something, they say they "never had a clue the dog would act like that" and "don't know how it happened".

Another thing you should do is contact her breeder, let him know of her behavior, and find out if there have been any other occurances of aggression problems in his dogs. I think people are right though, that you've waited far to long to take her problems this seriously... if they had been addressed when she was younger, then she wouldn't be so set in her habits and reactions, and you'd likely have an easier time working through the problem. Could you get a part time job (babysitting, paper carrying, etc) to pay for her vet costs? Have any of the bites been reported? I have to say though, that there are worse things than euthanization, and that it's not fair to her to give her to an unsuitable home (either for her or for them), just because you can't stand the idea of her being PTS... keep that in mind when you're considering homes.

[quote]The case here is that the daschund attacked a defenceless, non threatening baby.[/quote] Could it not have been an intense prey drive that had never been properly directed, and since there was noone there to correct the dog (thus stopping the behavior), the moving, wriggling baby was to much for it to resist? I'm not saying that the dog wasn't possibly trying to move up in rank (or anything else) but it may not have necessarily been acting "maliciously". I think it was definitely owner error, and though I have no idea why the dog acted as it did, I don't really agree with the dog being placed. With so many dachsies in rescues/shelters already, rescuers need to choose the best cantidates for placement, because not all will find homes, and (IMO) a dog that would need so much work/such a careful home would not be a good cantidate for placement. It would be nice if there were enough people clambering for dogs that even the "special" ones could find people willing to work with them, but things aren't that way, so people can only do what they can. Also, thinking back to what happened with my aunts dogs and her baby, I don't think I'd feel comfortable knowing that the 2 dogs involved in that had been placed in new homes... I'd always be kinda waiting to hear about them on the news again (if that makes any sense). There's also the liability to consider (for the rescue), what if the dog somehow managed to bite another person? And if he was successfully placed, how would his new owners see him? Would they ever be able to completely trust him, knowing he had almost killed a baby? I know these are a lot of things that don't really have answers, and may not even be relevent, but they're things to think about in a situation like this.

At 4 yrs old, and with fear aggression issues like she has, you'll have a hard time finding her a good home with someone who will care for her the way she deserves. Likely, you'll have a lot of people that will want her [i]because[/i] she's "aggressive", and you'll have to do very careful screening. I'm not sure of the laws in Canada, but here in the US, you can be held liable if you place a dog when you know it had aggressive tendencies. If her aggression is not controllable (not sure if that's even a word?), chances are good that unless the other person somehow manages to keep her completely isolated, there will be another incident. If that does happen, and it's reported, she'll be deemed dangerous and probably be euthanized. Even if they can keep her isolated from people, what kind of life will that be for her (you know her personality, so you need to decide how she'll feel in that situation)? Try to get the money together for the tests, and explain the situation to your vet and see if you can make payments on the tests, etc. Until then (or until she's placed/PTS if the tests come back clear) [b]keep her away from people[/b]. When you have someone at your house, she goes in a room and the door is locked. She shouldn't be left out until they are gone (if you need to take her out, have them go into another room, shut the door to it, and walk her outside, then put her back in her room and lock the door again). If you can't find out what's wrong with her, then the best option may be to have her PTS. :(

A baby was attacked by the family dachshund, and there's a lot of debating going on about whether it should have been PTS or not (it has been, but there's still speculation as to whether it was the right choice). Here's a link to the story: [url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42091-2002Dec26.html[/url] And here's the board where they were discussing it: [url]http://dachshundzone.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001712.html[/url]

Here are our dogs'... Goo- Prey- 45 Pack- 40 Fight- 45 Flight- 10 Annie- Prey- 70 Pack- 25 Fight- 55 Flight- 20 Joey- Prey- 25 Pack- 35 Fight- 20 Flight- 60 Casey- Prey- 25 Pack- 60 Fight- 5 Flight- 25

[quote name='deepseasnake']its just 2 words for the same dog, if calling a mutt a purebred gets it into a clean house with food its all for the better[/quote] Not really... think about all the people who will buy them, breed them thinking they have a "purebred", and make more "bullboxers"... then think about all the poorly bred "bullboxers" that will end up in shelters/running loose because the breeders claimed that the dogs got the "best of both breeds", but either they didn't, or "the best" was too much for the new owner to handle. How about the ones that didn't have the best temperments, but are bred anyway, because their owners are ignorant, and result in dogs that end up biting someone. What will the media call them? Will they be boxers? Boxer crosses? Pit bulls? Pit bull crosses? Bullboxers? Or just crossbreeds?

That's true, and I agree with you completely, but changing the lawmakers minds won't do much if the general public still views them all as "pit bulls". It's like a big circle, and nearly impossible to find the best place to start :roll:

I put up a springpole in our backyard for Goo, but she wasn't interested in it (she doesn't want it unless I have it too :roll: ), but Annie loves it. Here's her playing on the one outside (I know, it's not exactly "scientific looking" :lol: )... [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2389129a.jpg[/img] And the advantages of a small dog, she can play with a springpole inside (without crashing into walls and breaking things :lol: )... [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2490667a.jpg[/img]

K, I think ROTT'N'PIT is talking about well bred APBTs and AmStaffs vs the generic "pit bull" (ie: the dogs that are of no specific bloodlines, who's breeder(s) didn't really care about what kind of dogs they were producing). If that's what he (she?) means, I don't really agree with that either. Look at the thousands of indiscriminately/poorly bred "pit bulls" in shelters... the majority of them are stable dogs, barring some minor issues (seperation anxiety, etc) that even well bred dogs can have. At the same time, even with a reputable breeder, it's still possible to get an unstable dog... not likely, but possible. I really don't see much of a difference in the "generic" "pit bull" vs the AmStaff & APBT, and neither do polititions and lawmakers. They will all suffer the same fate (bans, restrictions, etc) if owners don't start taking more responsibility.

Name: Gooey Sex: Female Color/Breed: dark brindle APBT Age: 9 (10 in spring) Favorite things: Playing tug, "full contact" play, following, "her people", watching activity (ie: sitting around and watching people pass by), snow, rides, going on the boat, marshmellows (burnt or unburnt), swedish fish ( :roll: ) Un-favorite things: baths, water, strange dogs, having to share her bed with the "hot dog" Name: Annie Sex: Female Color/Breed: red Mini Dachshund Age: 4 (5 in feb) Favorite things: Playing tug, balls, squeaky toys, chasing things, bugging Goo, swimming, food Un-favorite things: baths, strange dogs, kids, rain, snow, wind Name: Casey Sex: Female Color/Breed: rust (fawn, buff, red, whatever :lol: ) Cocker Spaniel Age: 4-5 Favorite things: kids, food, sleep, having her ears combed, snow Un-favorite things: loud noises, thunderstorms, riding in cars/on the boat Name: Joey Sex: Male Color/Breed: fawn Chihuahua Age: 3-4 Favorite things: his "mother" (my mom), food, chewing, trashcan diving (in the process of breaking this habit :roll: ) Un-favorite things: being dryed after baths, people he doesn't know (not aggressive, just very "timid"), snow Here's a pic of all four... [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2373963a.jpg[/img]

Bad. They call it the "responsible pit bull ownership licensing act", but it's won't do anything to change the [i]irresponsible[/i] owners, so only the responsible ones will pay. The criminals, etc won't follow the law, because they don't care about the law or the penalties they may (but likely won't) face. That means that the only people who will follow the leg. are the ones who already follow the "rules" of good dog ownership, but according to this law, they may have to keep their well behaved dog muzzled just to leave their yard, among other things. Then, since the breeds have been deemed "potentially dangerous", if the slightest incident occurs (such as: a child runs past and the dog playfully jumps on them, scratching them with their paws) the muncipality will be able to order the dog be euthanized, because they will have fulfilled that "potential". There are already laws in effect that govern all breeds, such as leash laws and generic dog laws (one bite or dog showing aggression gets the dog deemed "vicious", and restricted according to the state regulations), and cruelty laws (which need stronger penalties), that alone, would be enough to stop many dog attacks. The key is that those laws need to be enforced. They won't work if no one uses them. If the laws were enforced, loose dogs would be impounded, and eventually confiscated if picked up enough times. Were the dogs that attacked licensed? If not, then why weren't their owners penalized [i]before[/i] the dogs attacked. Did people call the authorities about the loose dogs that police had to shoot? After all, they felt threatened... why didn't anyone do something about the dogs before it got to that point? The "dog problem" will never be "fixed" by simply placing more laws in effect, it requires a joint effort by government lawmakers, "cleanup crews" (ACOs, shelters, etc), educators (people need to know how to treat dogs, and have some idea of why they act the way they do) dog owners (of all breeds), and non-dog-owning citizens (too many things go unreported until it's too late and something horrible has already happened). Until this happens, there will continue to be dog attacks, and nothing will change, except more innocent people and dogs will be punished for things they never did.

At the Petsmart near my house there are two trainers. One is nice, and seems like a good trainer, the other, who has been there longer, seems more interested in always being right and looking good. I had Annie in there one day when one of their training classes had just ended, and the trainer walked up to us with his dog. Annie was starting to get a little too interested, so I told him that my dog didn't like other dogs. He told me they were fine, and started lecturing me on how I need to learn to learn to recognize dogs' body signals. A few seconds into his lecture, his dog stood up from its sit (talking about poorly trained :roll: ) and Annie tried to go after it. I yelled (not really yelled, but spoke "sharply") at her, and she came back beside me. The trainer launched into another lecture on how out-of-control dogs shouldn't be out in public, how I was doing nothing to correct her behaviors, and how I need to learn something about dogs before trying to train one. Of course, several of his students were standing around hanging on every word, so I just laughed, wished him luck on getting a solid sit out of his dog, and left. Petsmart is the only pet store nearby, so I still go there sometimes if I need something, but that changed my mind about taking the dogs (the three small ones) through the CGC class they have :roll:

Mine's there. Maybe because I posted after you guys did, and they lost yours somewhere along the way? :roll:

[quote name='sashagirl']Hennessey is a pretty girl[/quote] She is... but she looks scared to death, as if she's wondering why she's where she is and why someone's holding her there. And then for them to say they're aware of the breed's problem (and act like they care), when they're still breeding dogs that shouldn't (for any reason) be bred, is completely wrong. :x And of course with the BC, there will probably be people that wanted a pup, but won't get one this time for whatever reason, so they'll just have to breed her again "one more time" to meet the demand :roll:

Or how about this one?... [url]http://www.craigslist.org/sfo/sby/pet/7367124.html[/url] :snipersmile:

[url]http://www.craigslist.org/sfo/sby/pet/7402554.html[/url] Their 9 yr old bitch has had several litters containing 13-16 living pups... and they're aware of the hundreds to thousands of pit bulls dying in shelters every day, yet they're breeding their unpapered dog!?

I found this site the other day, and thought it was kinda interesting... [url]http://www.takingthelead.co.uk/3/bodylangquiz.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.bergen.com/page.php?level_3_id=261&page=5976487[/url]

Our dogs don't get many baths, usually just if they get into something smelly or if we're taking them somewhere and want them to be extra clean. They didn't get a bath all last year during them winter, just brushed every few days. In summer, they're bathed more often, because they just get dirtier, and we go swimming, so I have to rinse the bay water off them when we're done. Even then I usually just use water with no shampoo to rinse them off.