gooeydog

I'm sure Goo appreciates the sympathy... especially since it doesn't look like we'll get a walk tonight , either. Still pouring, and supposed to stay that way until tomorrow :-?

We were out on our walk, coming home, when I heard a buzzing sound coming from Goo (seemed that way anyway), and Goo suddenly started cowhopping all around, kicking her feet and jumping sideways, apparently trying to evade the furiously buzzing attacker. She finally managed to escape, and I went to go back to inspect... she wouldn't go back, planted her feet and did her best bag-o-cement impression. I let out a bit more leash, and she cautiously crept back with me (several feet behind me, of course). I found, in the middle of the street, a large locust (or maybe they're Cicadas(sp?), they're big green/black bugs that hatch out of shells... :o ). I thought maybe she'd killed it in her attempts to get away from it, so I nudged it with my shoe. It started buzzing again, and Goo promptly took shelter between my feet (I had crouched down to see what it was, so she has to squeeze herself under me). I nudged it again to move it into the light (still wasn't sure exactly what type of bug it was), and hopefully show Goo it was only a bug, when it flew up against my leg. Goo went crazy, dove the rest of the way out from under me, with me attached to her collar, chasing the poor bug down in the middle of the street (this was a dead end street, and it was 2am, so not much chance of us getting ran over). It was almost comical to watch her, she didn't know whether to bat at it with a paw, or to bite at it, and was thoroughly confused by that point. I decided to leave the poor bug alone before it had a heart attack (not sure if bugs can even do that), but when I started walking towards home, Goo was frozen yet again. Apparently she was afraid it was going to seek revenge as soon as she turned her back, so she stood rigid in the middle of the road, glancing dubiously at the bug, then at me, then back at the bug. I had to get behind her and give her a shove before she finally started walking.. even then she kept turning her head to make sure it wasn't in pursuit, and kept spooking at leaves blowing by and rattling. Of course, I didn't help matters by pointing out a few small, especially rattley leaves and saying "whassat!?" :roll: :lol: We didn't go for a walk tonight because she got her vaccs today and it's been pouring rain all night, but I'm hoping she'll have forgotten about her little experience by tomorrow night, because I don't feel like saving her from every bug we happen to pass.

Goo and Haley- ALWAYS on leash (though I occasionally let Haley drag the long lead behind her when we go to the field, after she's pretty wore out and not so interested in running around like a savage). Goo would probably be fine off-leash unless a strange dog ran up, but that's not a chance I'm about to take... Haley still thinks the "catch me" game is really fun :-? Casey and Joey- On-leash anytime we're out in public, with the exception of runs at the field and late night walks at the local school. I also let them run loose in the backyard (only fenced on 1 side right now), but that's almost 1000 ft from the road, and has water on two sides, so there's not much chance for them to get in trouble. They both listen well off-leash, but get distracted occasionally, so they get some priveledges. Annie- Off-leash more often than she's on, but never if we're walking on or close to roads, or in busy/crowded places. I don't take her to too many places where she needs to be leashed, so that's why she's off more often than not. Our "normal" walk consists of: on-leash for the walk around the block to the field, then off-leash in the field until we get back up to the road. I also let her run in the backyard like the others. She's good in almost any situation off-leash, and most of her training has been done off-leash, so she's actually better off-leash than on for most things. She's to the point now where she'll ignore people, cats, ducks, rabbits, squirrels, other dogs (unless they come right up on her), even people throwing tennis balls/other toys of hers when I call her or tell her to stop. That said, when I have her off-leash, she's immediately put back on anytime I see a person, dog, cat, etc, and never let off anyplace where she could run out in front of a car should she hesitate in listening when I call her back. I'm 99% sure she'd listen every time I called her, but not about to take the chance of finding out. I'm assuming that by your question on dogs obeying commands, you meant when off-leash... If I call one of them, I give the command once, and if they ignore me (there's a difference between ignoring (where they'll flick an ear at me or even look at me) and not hearing (where they'll give no sign whatsoever that they heard)), I "hunt them down", put them back on leash, then we work recalls until the dog is coming before I even get the word all the way out, and I'm so sick of saying the same thing over and over that I'm ready to puke. This is done without harsh corrections... I call, praise the whole time they come towards me, then reward; and if they don't at all, I reel them in gently, minus praise until they get to me. If I don't have a long lead, and it's just an in-attention thing, I'll usually just call once, then go get them and walk them over to where I was by their collar, have them sit, get their attention back on me, and do some easy recalls just to remind them of how things work. I only call once because I want them to come back when I call them the first time, not the 4th or 5th. This is also not something to do if you're mad, as the dog will pick up on it and will associate recalls with you being unpleasant. That's another reason I get them right away, when a person stands there and calls the dog over and over, they're only getting more and more frustrated, and mroe likely to take it out on the dog either when they finally come back, or when the owner catches them. The second way I mentioned (for without a long lead) is what I used for Annie for 99% of her work, so I'd say it works great for some dogs, though maybe not for others. As a side note, I've found that it's important to also work on "stay" when you're doing recalls... I've been working with Annie for about 3 yrs now, and never really bothered with long stays or stays under distraction until last fall, then slacked off over the winter and picked up again late spring. She's SO used to always hanging right by me unless released that it really confused her when I was telling her NOT to follow me. It took a lot of work, and several months before she had a solid stay. She's still got a long way to go, but will hold a sit/stay while I walk 500 ft away, or disappear for a few minutes, and a down/stay for slightly longer (pretty good since she only learned "down" this spring also). We also do a LOT of work under heavy distraction... she loves tennis balls, tugs, etc, so I've found they work really well as distractions. I'll put her in a sit/stay, throw the ball, and then work recalls, heeling, stays, etc all around it... at various distances. If she goes for it, I correct (a sharp AHH!) and make her come back. We've done recalls where she had to run past it, over it, even stop beside it, then stay without bothering it while I walked away. At times, she gets so frustrated that she yips when I call her away from it, because she wants to get it so badly (and when I finally let her go, she's like a short, brown tornado :lol: ). I figure though that if she has that type of control over such a huge distraction, then teaching her control around other things we come across should a piece of cake.

[quote name='Cassie']OK, now don't laugh at me BUT.....how in the heck do people get off saying that SOME breeds of dogs are not human aggressive because they are bred to not be human aggressive?????[/quote] Maybe a better way to explain it is less willing to bite a person.. in some cases, to the point that even when beaten, chopped up by garden tools, and set on fire, they still remain friendly to people (sometimes even those who did the things to them :-? ). It's not so much "not human aggressive", as it is that "normal" pit bulls are submissive to humans (yet not in a fearful way, they're usually still very confident dogs), are high in prey drive but low in defense, and have a huge amount of bite inhibition... they don't just haul off and bite at the drop of a hat, but display a huge degree of control even in highly provocative(sp?) situations. I think too, that in addition to that, through "gameness", many also lack the attitude of self preservation that most animals (including humans) have, displayed by the APBT's willingness to fight to the death against a much greater opponent if it comes to that... it also carries over to "real life" in that they generally aren't so quick to switch over to defensive mode in situations that put them in danger, if that makes sense. It takes much more to push a normal pit bull into biting a person than it does, say, a normal GSD, not necessarily because normal GSDs are unstable, just because they're different, and their drives/temperaments are "set" at different levels for different purposes.

They're doing ok as long as I'm there standing over them, dictating what they can and can't do, but it has to be very "structured" at this point, or things would probably get out of hand quickly. Haley's still not sure whether Annie's "prey" or not, and Annie's still not sure she likes sharing her house with Haley. As for Goo, she's been great about all this.. she's sooo tolerant of Haley, even when she insists on licking her ears out for her :o Goo- "Get her oooffff meee...." Haley- "I wasn't licking anything.... honest!" [img]http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL201/1320985/2511494/33293829.jpg[/img]

courtnek, that's supposedly one of the reasons cropping/docking was done... though I don't know how much grabbing the ears/tail of a 100-200 lb dog -coming straight at you with full intentions of biting you- would do :-? It's also always been thought that cropping/docking gives the dog a more intense/scary look, as well as makes some breeds harder to read... both things that would probably be considered an advantage in a guard dog. I'm on the fence about docking/cropping... I think that for some breeds, it's better to be docked at an early age (a few days) then to mature and end up having to have the tail amputated after they bang it onto something and split it open. Yes, there's a chance it wouldn't happen, but if it does, it's not fun for owner OR dog, and will likely be more traumatic in the long run. On cropping, I don't think it's necessary for most pets, but for dogs who are out and about in rugged terrain or in brush, and/or have thin, flappy ears, I think it can be a preventive measure to ear tears. Annie's torn both her ears (4 or 5 times total in the 3 1/2 yrs we've had her), the left several times, to the point that she has noticeable chunks missing out of it. Torn ears are a huge pain in the a**, they often bleed like crazy (because of all the veins in the ears, close to the skin, easy to hit one), and take forever to heal because they're always flopping about, keeping a scab from forming. Here's a pic that shows the tears in her ear: [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2718740a.jpg[/img] The biggest one is about 3/8" long, then there's one about 1/4", and another smaller one. The first time she ripped an ear, we tried the following to keep it from reopening, and get it to close after it had opened up: styptic powder, chemical cauterizing sticks, liquid band-aid, super glue, the vet even put a stitch in the one tear, which did nothing to stop the bleeding when she'd shake her head, and ended up getting pulled out (a la Annie scooting her head across the floor) a few days after it was put in. We also tried taping her ear on top of her head, taping it under her neck, and just taping it and letting it hang... nothing worked. It eventually healed on it's own, but it took over two months before it was completely gone. And Annie's just a very active housepet... I can only imagine the damage some working dogs would end up with. I doubt that I would ever have a dog cropped, but I'm not about to condemn anyone who does, and do think that in some situations it's better for the dog overall than being left natural.

[img]http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL201/1320985/2511494/33293885.jpg[/img] That's two down for Haley :lol: Note Goo's position as "mediator" :roll: (Those who haven't been around to follow... Haley's dog aggressive, and we've slowly been introducing her to the other dogs, trying to get them to be able to be together when under supervision so we don't have to keep them seperate all the time. She's been ok with Goo now for a couple months, so I figured it was time to try Annie).

No suggestions for places to find one, but if all else fails, christmas isn't too far away, you might be able to find a red, green, and white collar as the holidays get closer :lol:

Anyone here order their dogs' food online and have it shipped? Or even can list some companies with good reputations? I finally switched Goo's food completely over to Natural Balance a month and 1/2 ago, after hopping around from food to food trying to find one that didn't cause allergic reactions, or make her puke/get the runs/gas with no luck. She really liked it, and had none of the effects the other foods had caused, so I was hoping to stick with it for at least a while. Of course, things never work out the way they should, and when I went back to Petco to get more last week, they had NO cans (I know canned food isn't very healthy, but she's always gotten it, so I don't want to cut it out entirely. I mix 1 can, and 1 cup moistened dry for her evening meals, then leave out dry for her to pick at), so I had to get another kind (which she likes, but I don't, because the "emissions" while I'm trying to sleep at night are horrible). I've about ran out of decent foods to try, because there aren't any specialty-type stores nearby, and I can't get anyone to drive me out to one of the farther ones. I'm also not going to be switching her around everytime the store doesn't have the food (they didn't even know they carried that food :roll: ), so I'm really considering just ordering it and having it shipped. My two main concerns are: 1. Shipping charges... I can't afford to be paying twice the amount the food actually costs in order to have it shipped, though I am aware that food is a pretty heavy thing to ship, and they do have to charge some, how much is too much? And from what I've seen on some sites, it might be cheaper to get several cases at once, or would they all be packaged seperately anyway? 2. Quality of the food... I'd guess it'd be the same as if it was shipped wholesale to a store, but I'm still a bit worried that it may sit around longer than it should before they ship it out due to demand/lack thereof? Is this a concern with a reputable company? And if so, should they take the food back and exchange/refund? How about if the food is damaged during shipping? I'm really hoping somebody here has experience with this, so if you do, don't be afraid to speak up :lol:

As far as what's been posted already, some I agree with completely, some I disagree with. [quote]2. All dogs except those owned by licenced breeders must be desexed. Penalty - $350 fine if dog has never been bred, $5000 if dog has been bred and lifetime ban on breeder's licence.[/quote] This I disagree with.... I fully support the spay/neuter of pets, but at the same time, there are things that some people like to do with their dogs that require the dogs be intact... conformation and french ring/shutzhund trials being two I can think of right now. Sooo... would people wanting to keep intact dogs in order to participate in these sports without the intent of breeding be fined and/or have to have their dogs altered just because they have no plans of breeding? If you wanted to keep an intact dog for some reason, and there were special exceptions made for that, then how would it be decided what was a suitable reason? Who would be deciding these things? [quote]Fines for breeders who's dogs are repeatedly involved in bitings or attacks and if a long term pattern persists a revocation of breeders licence.[/quote] Disagree again... if someone's dog(s) attack someone (or more than one person) on more than one occasion, it's time for the person to face some serious consequences. Obviously they didn't smarten up the first time, so I think that jail time should even be an option in some of these cases. [quote]Massive education campaigns![/quote] Agree completely! This is (IMO) the most important thing that needs to be done. [quote]plus compulsary microchipping and heavy fines for non compliers.[/quote] Another important one... this way dogs that are attacking can be traced back to owners, and owners held responsible.... Dogs that are repeatedly left to roam placed in new homes, owners held responsible... you get the point. [quote]4. Actual enforcement of existing laws pertaining to dogs and dog ownership.[/quote] Another important one. This would actually solve a lot of problems, and IMO reduce the number of dog bites drastically. The other stuff couldn't hurt, but I can guarantee you'd have a hard time getting people to abide by it, and in addition to that, if we have this much trouble enforcing the laws we have now, then HOW are we going to enforce all these new, expensive, time/resource consuming laws? I think that first, before adding any new laws, we need to start enforcing the ones we have now, maybe adding in a clause about microchipping.... $5 off annual licensing fee if dog is chipped, any dogs that have been deemed "vicious" or "potentially dangerous" required by law to be chipped, just to start off with. In addition to that, the city/county/state/whatever government needs to start an awareness campaign. I bet there are people out there who would VOLUNTEER their time/knowledge if they were asked to for these types of things. There needs to be a dog safety awareness program, a responsible dog ownership program, and possibly a "pet at risk" type program, which addresses what drives dogs to bite/attack, and what to do if you suspect that a dog you know poses a threat. In addition to that, maybe revamp the licensing system so that license fees were higher (say... $50 per dog per year), then add in "knockoffs" for responsible owners... like: dog is fixed=1/2 off... dog is a CGC, has passed TT, or been through obedience=$15 off... of course, something would have to be done so that responsible breeders weren't stuck with astronomical license fees, I don't know how that would work. If all that was enforced, and it still wasn't enough to stop the problems, then maybe more rules could be implemented, but I really think that would be enough to at least dramatically cut down the problems.

Very cute pup... huge, too. He's already bigger than either of our bullys, and they're both adults :o Be careful with the frisbee catching... it's an easy way to have a dog tear an ACL, all that jumping up to catch is hard on joints and ligaments, especially young ones :wink:

I just thought this would be an interesting topic to get everyone's thoughts on... here's the post that got me thinking about it (courtnek's post from the thread on submissive pee'ing): [quote]Play tug of war with her two to three times a day (I would suggest 3) at game 2, let her win and take the tug toy. Then play with her again a few minutes later and win yourself (winning the last round is VERY IMPORTANT) and put the toy up. After a few days, with a few wins, her confidence should improve. She is acting like pack Omega, you want to promote her a little bit without getting a big head about it. You DONT want to promote her so much she thinks she's top dog...there is a fine line here. You must always win the last round, and put the toy up. Dont let her take it to her bed. That causes major dominance issues with dogs. [/quote] I don't think that winning at tug is as important as it's made out to be... dogs know when they're strong enough/smart enough to outpower/outsmart a person, and when they're not (in fact, I'd say they're better at judging whether or not they can match someone/thing than most people). I know that when I was younger, I was NO match when playing tug with Goo. I could be hanging on with all my strength, but at only a few pounds more than her, she could have easily won every time. Yet she knew it was only a game, and she would often let [i]me[/i] win. I would start to lose my grip, and she'd either pause for me to get a better hold on the toy, or even push it closer, as if trying to help me get it. Even when I'd "lose", she'd run off with the toy, give it the "shake", then run back and lay it on my hands for another round. Even now, if she wanted to, she'd win most of our tug games, yet it's only a game for both of us, and we take turns with our wins. Same with Haley, though she's not as giving with letting me win, and usually gets more caught up in the game, she will willingly give it up when told. Annie, on the other hand, hasn't lost but a few tug games in over 3 years, I keep it that way, and while she is a confident little beast, she's by no means overly dominant with me or any other people. I often have to "out" her three or four times before she's completely let go of the tug, but that's the pretty much the ONLY area where she ever questions my authority. She's not that way with other toys, but she knows that tug is all about keeping her grip on the toy, and as such, she's always reluctant to give it up. I've also always let our dogs carry their toys for a while after they win at tug, especially Goo, she prances around teasingly, occasionally coming back to nudge me with the toy as if to boast about how she has it and I don't before dodging away again and playbowing. For Annie, it's her obedience/tracking reward... she does what I want, we have a roaring tug game and she gets to carry the tug around afterwards for a while. Sometimes I take the toy back from them after a while, sometimes I let them have it until they forget about it, then pick it up. I've also seen this same thing I mention in watching the dogs playing amongst themselves... when Goo and Annie play tug, they're not worrying about winning to establish themselves as boss, in fact, they'll banter about back and forth sometimes for 1/2 hr before one actually wins, and with a 58lb dog vs a 10 lb dog, it's obviously not usually even a real contest. That's not to say that Goo's always easy on Annie, she'll give her a few hard shakes during the tug session (once she shook the tug so hard I expected Annie's little pea brain to rattle loose :lol: ), but yet she'll also do goofy things like this: [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2373945a.jpg[/img] I've caught both dogs shoving the tug up to their opponent's mouth so they could get a better grip, too.. similar to what Goo would do with me... like, "here, grab this, so we can [i]really[/i] play". I've also seen them both abandon their game mid-tug in favor of a mutual "gutting" of their tug toy. Both dogs have won games by their own accord when they were both actually engaged in the game (Goo more often than Annie, but Annie's had her fair share, too), as well as won by their opponent "letting" them win. I think tug is what you make of it... if you make it into a status contest, it will become one... if you always treat it as a game and/or reward, it will stay one.

You could take her into the vet now for the doggy version of the "day after" shot... easier for you than having to deal with raising and placing a litter of pups, and much safer for her and any pups she may end up with. Another option is to just have her spayed now...

Forgot something in my last post... The process I described there is NOT fast. It can take weeks (even months) to get a dog to the point where it can comfortably work near even the first type of distraction I mentioned. It all depends on how deep the dog's fear/lack of confidence really is. Don't expect to go out and have your dog hanging out with the entire neighborhood after a week of work, it will take months (if not longer) before he's ready for that type of interaction. If you're willing to be patient and keep working at it though, even when you don't seem to be making any progress, then I think you may find that it really does help the dog to become better at handling different situations.

First, I commend you for realizing your pup is acting out of the norm for his breed and acting upon it now, rather than waiting for it to become a serious problem. You sound like the kind of owner the breed needs right now. I'm nowhere near an expert on dog behavior and the like, but have worked with a few shy/fearful dogs, so I'll share some of what has worked with these dogs. Keep in mind that you REALLY should, if at all possible, get help from a professional trainer on working through these issues. If he's only getting more and more afraid as you socialize him, you are probably moving too quickly for him. Slow down, move back away from the people, and work your way back up to being close to them. Socialization doesn't necessarily mean walking in and amongst other dogs/people having everyone fawn and make a fuss over them... for some dogs (one of mine, for example) it may be something as seemingly insignificant as hanging out on the parking lot of petsmart, 500 ft from the entranceway, working basic obedience and playing tug (or the like). It may not seem like a lot, but for her, it IS a LOT of effort, and at first, it was very stressful on her. Obedience is a HUGE help in getting a dog over problems like this. Also of great help (rivaling even the obedience in some cases) is a good food and/or toy drive. Get your dog MOTIVATED. Find something he LOVES (not just likes) and use it to your advantage. If he likes tug (since he's a bully, he probably does :wink: ), use that, if he likes tennis balls, use those, if he likes steak (let's hope not, or you may go broke :lol: ), use that. Whatever you have to to get him motivated. If you can't find anything he likes, then split his daily feeding rations up into "training meals" that you'll make him work for during his training sessions. He'll be amazingly eager to work for you once he figures out he doesn't eat unless he does (may take him a day or two, but he'll figure it out). If you use a toy, spend a lot of time making it special... it's not "just" a toy, it's THE best, most exciting thing in the world, and he ONLY gets it when you're working with him and he does what you tell him. In our house, we have one tug fiend, two food hounds, one that alternates between tug and food, depending on her mood and energy level, and one who goes mainly off praise (a weirdo, praise alone isn't enough for most dogs), with the occasional game of tug/catch and/or treat thrown in when she's in the mood. Take his reward (whatever it is you decide to use) with you EVERY time you leave the house with him, or anytime someone comes to visit (like that commercial, "Don't leave home without it" :lol: ). Start teaching him to pay attention to you NO MATTER WHAT is going on around him. To do this, start at a distance from a small distraction (maybe one person he knows, just sitting in a chair, reading a book or something), and run him through his basic obedience, with maybe some a tug/catch break thrown in to keep it interesting for him. Keep him busy (don't want him to have time to think about the scary guy/girl in the chair 200 ft away from him), and keep him focused on you. If he doesn't know the "look" or "watch" command (where he watches your face, and focuses only on you), teach him that before you start this stuff (he should also know, at the very least; "sit" and/or "down", "stay", "heel" and/or "close", and "come"). If he won't/can't focus on you, you're probably too close to the distraction, move further away from them, until he's able to focus on you and concentrate on his lessons. Work at that distance until he's completely comfortable, then move a little (that's important, don't move too close all at once, or you'll just scare him and undo the good work you've done; better to not move close enough and have to move a little closer after a few minutes, than to move too close and him fail) closer to the distraction. Work with him at that distance until he's comfortable, then move a bit closer to the distraction. If at ANY time, he seems uncomfortable, move him back to a distance where he's comfortable. You want to build success upon success, building up his confidence, NEVER putting him into (or allowing him to get into) a situation to fail and lose his confidence. During this time, it's your job to protect HIM from others. If, while you're out training, someone allows their children to run up to him, intercept and ask the parents politely to get their children. If someone tries to pet him, politely ask them not to, telling them that he's in training. No need to elaborate unless you want to, keep it simple and polite, but be firm. If you have to, leave. No sense risking your dog's mental well being and all your hard work because some people are rude. Once he's working close to/amongst the distraction (got a bit sidetracked there :oops: ), you can start adding more distraction to the situation (could be different types of people, people with dogs, a couple more people, etc). Again, you want to start at a distance where he's comfortable, and work your way up to being near them. Same routine as above, don't get in a rush, go at his pace. Keep adding more distraction as you go (maybe throwing in screaming kids, rollerbladers, skateboarders, bicyclists, joggers, loud yelling people, etc), using the same method as described above to get him used to it, until he's doing well under your controlled situations. Before you try to take him out into a public situation in close quarters with people, he should be willing to focus his beady little eyes on you in ANY situation, to the point where it would take a crowbar to pry them off (like this: :o ). Have your decoys walk near him (once he's to the point where he's used to them being near), run past, talk loudly to you/him, pat him, walk over him etc, all while you keep him focused on you. Do this over and over until it's engrained into his brain that the correct reaction is NO reaction (other than keeping his eyes on you). Only when you KNOW that he's ready for it do you take him out into a situation where he has to deal with the public. Even then, if you see a possible situation that he hasn't encountered before, and aren't sure of his reaction, avoid it! In the house, what I would do is put him away (either shut him in a room, or crate him) before answering the door. Bring your guests in, get them settled, then if they're comfortable with you bringing the dog out (this is important, as dogs can sense when a person is uneasy, etc, and it will pick up on their feelings if they don't want him there), bring him out on-leash. Sit on the opposite side of the room (or put a tiedown ring in the wall, and hook him to it), and put him in a sit/stay or down/stay while you all just sit and chat. Ignore him, and have your guests do the same. Praise him for behaving and staying quietly, but if he carries on, you should either move him farther away, or even gate him in the next room. Do this until he's practically oblivious to the visitors' presence, even when they get up and walk out of or into the room (won't work if he's gated out of the room they're in, but you get the idea), etc. Then you can put him on-leash and allow him to check them out, but if he barks or otherwise carries on, put him back in his crate/room. Have them ignore him even when he's checking them out, as some dogs get spooked by peoples greetings, and need to approach on their own terms. Don't push him to "visit" with them, as that will only make him more uneasy. If at any time he seems to be getting more and more uneasy, or is getting progressively more defensive during a visit, put him away. It's the same principle as when you work with him outside... working too close or when he's afraid already does him no good, as he'll have no concentration on you and will be learning nothing. Don't hesitate to put him up if your visitors are afraid of him, or if there are going to be a lot of them, or there are going to be other circumstances that will set him on edge, better safe than sorry. Again, this is just what's worked for our dogs, and finding a trainer would be the best thing you could do at this point. Good luck :)

[quote]Dog Aggressive American Pitbull Terriers should be "MUZZLED." Actually some of the owner should have one too![/quote] Well, if that's not an outright statement of breed bias, then I don't know what is. Never did you make mention of what should be done to control the two maneating, dog attacking, cat killing dogs next door, who are FAR more of a threat than my well behaved, well controlled, albeit dog aggressive pit bulls. Nor did you make any mention of how our horribly dog aggressive dachshund should be muzzled and locked away for life. Sounds to me like you're yet another victim of the media yourself, guest/pitbull fan/big guest/hollywood/whoever you are. I'm guessing that the thought of actually having to be RESPONSIBLE in the care/ownership of your dogs is such a horrible thought for you that you can't stand the thought of it, and have convinced yourself that it will (and couldn't) ever happen to you. Perhaps instead of a pit bull, you should suit yourself up with some less controversial "pets". One of these might do... [url]http://www.desert-tropicals.com/Plants/Cactaceae/Ferocactus_latispinus.html[/url] :lol:

[quote name='PitBull Fan'] You mean to say that dog has had dog aggression difficulties for 9 1/2 years now.[/quote] Actually, she's probably had them for longer than that, I wouldn't know though since we've only had her since she was 7 months old... she didn't like other dogs then, and became increasingly less tolerant as she matured. Fairly typical pit bull. [quote]WOW! And it appears that your other dogs have learned the same dog aggressive behavior too. Makes me wonder what's going on? [/quote] Well.... the younger APBT was found wandering at 8 months, initially showed some defensive type aggression towards other dogs, but as she became more confident, and matured, it developed more into an issue of her wanting to be boss, and trying to fight any dog that didn't accept her as supreme ruler. This was despite numerous attempts by her -then- owner to socialize her with other dogs and let her play. We got her 7 months ago, and she's mostly been seperated from the other dogs until recently, still hasn't met two out of four, and still wouldn't mind eating the newest one she's been introduced to. She will never be allowed with ANY dog expect for under the strictest ofsupervision, because she WILL fight, and we'd rather take a few precautions, than lose a dog. The Dachshund was socialized some as a pup, then her owner slacked off on it, but most likely her problems stem from poor breeding. She was also defensive initially around other dogs/people when we got her (age 1 1/2 yo), bordering on being a fear biter, but has since gained an enourmous amount of confidence, and her issues are similar to the younger APBT's, except because she's so small, it seems she views EVERY dog she sees as a challenge. [quote]Why is it after 9 1/2 years you are still attempting to stop your dog aggression towrds other dogs? [/quote] I am not trying to stop my dog's aggression towards other dogs (though I have in the past, with dismal results), instead working to teach her better control in situations that would normally cause a reaction from her. It's an ongoing process, not something that can be changed overnight (though, given your past posts, I'm sure you'll find that hard to believe). [quote]Why isn't your training working then?[/quote] It has. As I mentioned above, a well trained dog is a lifetime of commitment, not just a one time thing to be done, then forgotten about. [quote]Why has it taken 9 1/2 years to train your dog to be non-dog aggressive? [/quote] My dog is not "non-dog aggressive", never wll be. She is, however, a very well behaved dog aggressive dog, and has enormous amounts of self control, thanks to the training we've done. [quote]And if your dog is naturally dog aggressive, why even bother trying to stop the dog from it's own natural inborn PIT FIGHTING GENE? [/quote] As I said before, I'm not trying to stop the dog from wanting to fight. Instead, I'm teaching her to control herself even when she want's to fight, by showing her more appropriate ways of behaving in those situations. [quote]If you have to practically hide from everyone inorder to walk your dog, then you surely have a dangerous dog on your hands, now don't you?[/quote] Call it that if you like, I think of it more as there being less chance of a stray, loose, or out of control dog running up to us and ruining all the work we've put in to get to this point. We've passed a few leashed, under control dogs while out, not the slightest problem. If that's hiding, then so be it. [quote]If people would stop kissing each others asses on here and look at the reality, then people may be helped with their dog problems. To blindly read that someone has a very dog aggressive dog and compliment them on how well the dog is taken care of, makes no sense.[/quote] The only one not looking at reality here is YOU. There have been dozens of valid, scientific sources quoted and or linked to on here that back up the claims I and other people have made on pit bulls being dog aggressive by nature... you've managed to come up with a few irrelevant pieces from unknown sources to back your opinion, and expect people to take your word as the truth.

Aonir, pit bulls generally are extremely friendly towards people, but many (more than not) are aggressive to other dogs... though it varies as to what extent. Here are some links that have good information on the typical pit bull temperament. Click around on this site, they talk about dog aggression, human aggression (actually, I guess it should be "lack of" human aggression :wink: ), the works, on several different pages: [url]http://www.realpitbull.com/[/url] Good stuff on this page, other info on APBTs on the other pages if you're interested: [url]http://www.workingpitbull.com/aboutpits.htm[/url] More: [url]http://www.badrap.org/rescue/owning.cfm[/url] [url]http://www.badrap.org/rescue/myths.cfm[/url]

Aonir, I understand where you're coming from, but in my efforts to make a point, I also left out some key things about my dog (and our friend "guest" has added in some of their own thoughts, all of which are grossly unfounded assumptions). First, those "poor dogs" she bolted through the window after were in our yard (we're also pretty sure that they killed a stray cat we'd been feeding for a few weeks while they were there, as there was blood throughout the yard, no cat, and the neighbor had admitted proudly months before "my dog kills cats") have tried to bite me once (in our yard), have attacked her twice (again, in our yard), and have threatened numerous people and other pets/animals in our area during their roamings. I also need to make clear what I mean by "firing up", as I'm sure it's easily to imagine how horrible it could be.... when she sees another dog, she dances around on her toes and watches them, nothing more. I can put her in a sit while a dog on-leash (and under control) passes by 10 ft away from her, no outward reaction. She will NOT, however, stand by and ignore a strange dog harassing her, sniffing her, pawing at her, humping her, etc, so I keep her out of situations like that, avoiding strange off-leash dogs completely whenever possible, or if not, either walking quickly away or even picking her up and carrying her out of the situation if need be. I've only recently started walking her out of the yard by myself, and as a precaution, we go after dark (usually after 12:00am, when most of the neighborhood is in bed), and stay on quiet streets or the huge field where I let the other dogs run during the day. Goo doesn't get off-leash, even in fenced areas, because she's a fence jumper as well, and I don't want to risk a stray dog coming up to fence fight and giving her reason to jump out. Guest would also have you believe that I have done nothing but sit by as my dog blatently tries to attack other dogs... that is far from the truth. I've put [i]thousands[/i] of hours of work into getting her to this point, desensitizing her to other dogs, redirecting her aggression, teaching her to control herself around other dogs, and have used several methods to try to do this, all with different rates of success. Yes, she's a work in progress, but she's gotten (and will continue to get) better and better at handling these types of situations. Also, I DO socialize her, it just so happens that her "socialization" right now is with dogs that are at a distance from us, and I plan for it to stay that way until she's comfortable enough for them to be closer. Another thing guest fails to mention is that this particular dog is 10 yrs old, and that we've been managing her with these issues for 9 1/2 of those years (she's been spayed for that long, too... bit*hy hormones aren't the cause of her "issues") without a problem. It may not be the choice you would make, but to me, the endless devotion I see in her every day is more than worth the small amount of trouble we go through to keep her (and other peoples' pets) safe. She's not the only dog aggressive dog we have, there's also a younger pit bull (not as "on/off" as Goo, but also not as predictable as Goo, either), and a mini Dachshund, who is completely predictable... she'll go after ANY dog that happens along her way, unless given a direct command to leave them alone, and even then will sometimes try to sneak. Interestingly enough, all three of these dogs were lounging with me on my bed yesterday while I watched TV.... soooooo out of control they are :wink: BTW, thanks Michelle and HF for the friendly words, and yes HF, I'm a "she" :lol:

Here's a link to a post on another board explaining all that goes into RESPONSIBLE "pitbull" breeding (ie: not breeding two puppies together and then being unable to afford vet care for them and the pups they have): [url]http://pub177.ezboard.com/fdogcommunityfrm1.showMessage?topicID=3965.topic&index=58[/url] Read the post by "Hartagold".

[quote]so if you can't afford to take the dog to the vet I suggest you get her spayed[/quote] They probably can't afford that either :roll:

[quote]I have never met a dog aggressive one except for those who were trained to be that way.[/quote] Lucky you..... that doesn't mean they don't exist though, does it? [quote]I have friends with great Pits.[/quote] That's just dandy, but are you saying my two dog aggressive APBTs aren't great (the reporter who was tackled and slathered in bully kisses by the youngest one last weekend would probably beg to differ :lol: )? [quote]All you do is put down the breed even though you may or may not have one.[/quote] I obviously missed all these "put downs"... care to point them out? [quote]You may whined up in the newspaper or on TV when your dog attacks another pet someday.[/quote] Won't happen. That's the difference between a good pit bull owner and a bad one... the good pit bull owner is aware of their dogs' flaws and does whatever it takes to keep them out of trouble, the bad one simply pretends they don't exist. [quote]Good luck with your training because it is an ongoing thing with these type of dogs.[/quote] "These type of dogs"? What do you mean by that? Are you implying that "these type of dogs" are somehow different from other types of dogs? That's a bit stereotypical, isn't it? MackersV20 is also right that the case referred to in the article you posted only deals with whether or not pit bulls are inherently dangerous to humans... not to other dogs. There have been NO studies done on whether or not certain breeds have a higher propensity for dog aggression (which would, from your earlier posts on the matter, qualify them as "dangerous", nor are there any accurate stats on dog on dog attacks. One more thing I wanted to point out: [quote]They are friendly to all the dogs I have seen them with.[/quote] If you happened to see my dog, Goo lounging about the house with our four other dogs, you'd easily be lulled into thinking that she would never fight with another dog. After all, she's been humped, sat on, sniffed, trampled, licked, pushed around, had toys and chewies stolen from her, even been outright attacked by the other dogs, all without so much as a nip at one of them. She's the only one I trust to play on the springpole with our snippy little dachshund, because she's the only one who won't launch into WW3 when the dachsie grabs her nose while trying to get a better grip on the tug or get so frustrated with her that she starts a fight. Normal scenes from our house... [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2637142a.jpg[/img] [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2551229a.jpg[/img] Yet this same dog will fire up at the sight of another dog,and would fight if she was free and/or they came close enough for her to grab them. She has such a strong dislike for strange dogs that she went through a window after some, and even after that substantial "correction" (smashing her head against a window and cutting her nose) for going after other dogs, STILL has a strong desire to get them. It would be great if dog aggression was something that was "trained in", and could easily be "trained out", but it's not.

It seems that Annie just realized today that she's a Dachshund, and that Dachshunds are hunting dogs.... I spent almost 1/2 hr trying to convince her to come out from under our shed after she apparently found some sort of animal under there, and was holding it hostage by barking incessantly :o This was after I dragged her out from under a buch of junk inside the shed, where she was barking up a storm and digging at an old cabinet. As I turned to go up to the house, she dove under the shed, not to be seen again for a while :roll: I'm just glad that whatever it was she had under there didn't fight back :o Anyway, I'm hoping she'll forget about the new and fascinating "toy" under there, but if not, how do I get her to leave these things alone? Of course, it didn't help that when I tied Goo to the door so I could look under the shed, she crouched down and started barking too, as if she was trying to egg Annie on :roll: And this is on top of the fact that Annie's been trying to attack Haley through the babygates, and tore an ear while out playing the other day, which has been bleeding on and off for three days now. If anyone's looking for a CHEAP mini Dachshund, I think we might have one available :wink:

[quote=ROTT'N'PIT]Very True, But I still say being a responsible owner is being there so that when your dog does start up you are right there correcting the behavior and showing that... Hey when i act all tough, I get in trouble but when i sit and just let them pass i get praise. then your dog will find your praise much more rewarding then a solid correction. [/quote] If only it were always that easy... not all dogs are so easily persuaded into leaving other dogs alone. For a long time I tried to "correct" Goo into controlling herself around other dogs... the result? A dog who would hold a sit while another dog passed. Most of the time. Then there were the times when she'd seemingly lose all control and fly at the passing dog with such fury it was unbelieveable... she knew she would be corrected (sometimes a leash correction, sometimes verbal, sometimes both), but her desire to get at the other dog was so strong that it overrode even her fear of correction. Immediately afterwards, she'd start shaking in fear from being corrected, knowing that she'd messed up, but that of course didn't stop her from going after the dog in the first place. All I had managed to do was make her even more intense in her attempts (trying to get to the other dog before she was corrected), and make her afraid. She also became sneaky, something that still causes problems today.... she'd stay in her "sit", or "heel", seemingly not even paying attention to the other dog, then fly up in a full fledged lunge... no signs before whatsoever (she now does this with cats, bunnies, and other small prey animals). After a while, I realized that I wasn't doing to fix the problem, gave up on "fixing" her, and worried more about just keeping her out of trouble. The past couple years, I have started working with her again, but still mainly just keep her out of situations where she might react. She can walk past another dog on the street or in a yard without carrying on, and she's fine with our dogs, that's good enough for me. It's also important to note that she is extremely submissive, and even an angry stare will usually stop her in her tracks if she's doing something she's not supposed to be... which just goes to show HOW intense she was about other dogs that she would risk that type of disapproval from me to get to one.

[quote=ROTT'N'PIT]These dogs like to please and if you praise a behavior it gets repeated. Even as a puppy if your dog shows dog aggression and you think its cool and you praise it, it will be repeated even if you dont praise it the second time the dogs will remember the time that you did and keep trying. Its like letting a dog on the couch, you always say no and its not a problem the one time you let it up, its going to try over andd over to get back up there.[/quote] The problem with that is that you don't have to praise a dog (especially an APBT) for acting dog aggressive in order for it to be rewarding... there are numerous ways it can be rewarding all on its own. First, pretend for a second that a person walking another dog is the mailman on his mail route, it works the same way; mailman (errrm.... dog/owner) comes up, your dog carries on as he deposits mail in box, mailman leaves. Your dog thinks "Hey, I just barked and carried on and that guy left, I must be real tough!". The same thing can happen with a dog that reacts defensively around other dogs, they carry on, other dog is either led past by owner or leaves, not wanting to be in a fight, your dog thinks they're the biggest badass on the block. That alone is rewarding.... the behavior worked, right? Or, say your dog is fine with most other dogs, and one day gets into a scrap (either with one of his buddies or with a different dog). Win or lose, he's an APBT, he most likely thought that new "game" was pretty fun. Again, he was rewarded by the situation alone. No need for praise or encouragement from you.