gooeydog

Not all pit bulls DO give signs before they get into a fight with another dog... they may be playing happily, then within (literally) 1/2 a second, they'll be going at it. The play doesn't even have to be rough, and there may not be a visible trigger. Even if there is, the two seconds of warning you may have aren't usually enough to get your dog out of that situation. Or if another dog should run up and jump on them (like the boxer and pit in RnP's story, though maybe not aggressively, just in play), you probably wouldn't have time to stop your dog from reacting if it was going to. You would only be able to break up the fight once it was started, and by then the damage (to both the dog(s) and the breed's rep) is already done.

It's very possible that theycould draw blood just in play, especially if they never learned bite inhibition as pups. Most pit bulls do play roughly with other dogs (when we had a pit/JRT mix foster a few years ago, she used to chase Goo through the house, dive on her back, then hang by a chunk of Goo's scruff until Goo shook her off, and Goo loved every second of it), so I'd imagine that if they were unmannerly little beasts, they could draw blood and make enough noise to convince you that they were actually fighting. It could have also been just a little scrap, but from what you've said, it still doesn't sound like they really wanted to hurt your dog. Also, the weight range you mentioned isn't uncommon in pit bulls, most range between 30-70 lbs, with some being a little larger or smaller. The two we have here are 52 (just right) and 60 (we need to work off the winter fat :lol: she should be around 56 by the end of spring). I don't particularly like dog parks, so what I'm about to say may be a bit biased, but here goes... I don't think that mature (in this case, over 8 months) dogs of bull breeds (APBTs, AmStaffs, Staffy Bulls, ABs) belong at dog parks or anywhere else where large numbers of unfamiliar dogs are running about offleash. It's one thing to get together with a few other dog owners who understand your breed and let the dogs have a romp around a baseball field or yard... or even to go to the dogpark during "off" hours with those people and their dogs that you know. First, pit bulls already have a high probability of becoming dog aggressive, so why tempt fate with all those chances to realize just how much they enjoy fighting. All it takes is for another dog to find a stick and come after your dog over it, and they may end up defensive around strange dogs for life. Couple that with their natural tendencies to fight rather than run, and you may end up with a dog that won't tolerate strange dogs anywhere near them. Couple that with the fact that if there ever IS an incident involving your dog (even if your dog didn't start it), your dog will take all the blame, and may pay with their life if the other dog's owners/other people in attendance put up enough of a fight, and it just doesn't seem worth it to me.

MOST pit bulls should not be at dog parks... the reason for this? If a conflict arises, the "average" pit bull is more likely to get involved than the "average" dog-of-another-breed, and more likely to cause serious damage then d-o-a-b. There a some pit bulls out there that are "dog park material", but not many, and even those cases are on a "day by day" basis, as you never know if/when they're going to start showing dog aggression. And the fact remains that most people who take their pit bulls to dog parks either are too ignorant to realize what teir dog is capable of, or just don't care. I'd be concerned if that had happened to my dog, even if the dogs were just playing (which is what it sounds like, had it been an actual fight, your pup would probably have needed to be put back together by the vet). If you enjoy that park so much, then find out who it's run by, and contact them about the lack of owner control in the park. Actually, you should talk to the owners first about their dogs' behavior, but they may or may not even pay attention. If you are unable to do something about that park, either find another park, or find a fenced area, contact a few other dog owners, and make your own playgroup.

Is there anything that you KNOW he'll come running back to you for? Food, or a toy, or an open car door? If not, then why not try tying a piece of rope (20-40 ft long) to his collar the first couple times, and just letting him drag that along, so that if he takes off, you can grab him before he gets too far. It doesn't even have to be a real thick/heavy rope, just enough to guide him back to where he should be if he wanders off. You could also work on his recall while he's on the rope, so that you can be sure he'll come before you let him off.

Don't even try to walk her on a "flexi"... if she's at the end of it and someone comes walking by, you'll have your fingers about cut off by the leash as you try to pull her in. I've also heard a couple accounts of them breaking (both the leash and the "brakes" :o ) when a dog bolted after something. If you can't find a horse line, you can make a long line out of rope and a sturdy snap. Get some rope (if you buy it, they should have load limits printed on the reels/packages), something that you're sure can withstand her hitting the end of it at a dead run (it's also good if it's wide enough that it won't cut into your hands while you're holding her). Tie the snap into place, then use electrical tape (or burn the rope, depending on what kind it is) to keep the knot from coming out. You can also put something in the "loop" where the snap is to cushion the rope from the rubbing of the snap if you want the rope to last longer. You can also soak it in bitter apple or one of those other "bad tasting" things to make it less enticing for her. The fact is that you KNOW she is aggressive, and you KNOW she would bite another person or dog if she had even 1/2 a chance. You NEED to ensure that she can't do that to someone(/dog). Training hasn't worked so far (or at least not well enough that she's under control, even), and if she does get loose or does bite someone, that won't be fair (or fun) for anyone; you, your family, her, or the victim. So, if you don't want her to be PTS, you NEED to be sure that she's in a situation that's safe for her and everyone else. You also need to consider yourself, and your own feelings, but don't forget about all the possible consequences of each decision.

First, the first two times she got loose were your fault. Never trust a leash that is/has been broken to hold a dog, especially one who you CAN'T have getting loose. I know you weren't expecting a rabbit to come along and her to chase it, but what if it had been another dog and she had hurt it (worse yet, a person. You said you were watching closely, but sometimes even that isn't enough). Second, a screen door is nothing for a dog to tear through (Goo accidentally ripped ours when she pawed at it to come out, there's now a ft long tear in it). The decision of what to do with her is completely yours, and though you may find help from others' opinions, only you really know what the best solution is.

Sorry about that then :oops: . And I'm glad you found one that you like :lol:

[quote]she is already living with 4 other dogs that she gets along great with[/quote] She's still just a baby though at 8 months old. Dog aggression can start to show up at anytime, but usually between 1 and 3 years of age. So unless Encyclopedia is fully willing to deal with any dog aggression that the dog may eventually have, a young, immature dog is not the best choice (an older dog would be a safer bet, but still no guarantees). If she/he gets a pit bull, and it becomes aggressive towards her other dogs, he/she will have to supervise them at ALL times (can't even go the the bathroom without either crating one or dragging it in there with you), and may even have to keep them completely seperate (their house will look like a cute little maze, full of babygates and boards across doorways so that the dogs can get to where they need to be without direct contact with each other :roll: ). Most mature pit bulls do best as only pets, or with one other dog of the opposite sex.

[b]Please[/b] don't get a pit bull just because they're not likely to be adopted otherwise. Do some research on the breed, talk to people who are experienced with them, and if you're still interested in them afterwards, [b]then[/b] start to look for one to adopt (unless you're already experienced with the breed(s)). A lot of pit bulls end up in shelters because people get them not knowing what they're getting into, then can't handle them once the "new dog high" wears off and they sink back into reality. I'm not saying that you shouldn't adopt one, just that it's important to know a lot about any breed you're interested in adopting, let alone a strong, determined, high energy breed like a pit bull. :lol:

Today I offered to help my aunt weed out her garden, and I didn't want to leave Goo home in the room (we have the windows open, so she can't be loose alone unless I close them all up, couldn't do that because it would get too hot for the other dogs :roll: ), so I just took her with me. I brought her tie out, a rug for her to lay on, a chewy (pizzle :-? ), and a couple toys, and we made the big trip across the street :lol: . first thing she did was wander around marking things... "this is mine".... "this is mine".... "this is mine, too".... "this is definitely mine"... you get the idea :roll: . Then once we started working, she went over and was "grazing" on this nice green grass by the porch... I called her away a few times, but she kept going back over, so finally gave up. A few minutes later she decided the grass she had eaten would be better off in the driveway, so I had to run in to get a towel to wipe the green slime off her mouth :-? . I went back to work, and she started to chew on her chewy, then got tired of that and just watched... of course she didn't want anything to do with the rug I had dragged over for her, and sprawled out on the blacktop driveway :roll: . After about 1/2 hr of that, she started bugging me again, so I played catch with her for a while, then she settled down again with the chewy (1/2 on the rug then :lol: ). My aunt found an old (rotten) duck egg buried in the garden, and threw it into the weed pile while I wasn't paying attention. I noticed it just as Goo was starting to drop down onto it for a good roll, diving onto her and knocking us both into a pile of weeds and dirt. Goo seemed a little concerned by my "outburst", and went and layed back down. A little while later, she was bugging me again, shoving her head under my arm ("you WILL pet me") and trying to climb on me for attention. I tried to ignore her and keep working, but it was a little hard once she climbed into the garden and started digging, slowly, at a large weed beside the one I was pulling on. I was kinda waiting for her to turn and fling dirt on me in disgust, but instead she bent down and started yanking on the weed with her teeth, like she was trying to pull it out. I shooed her off of it (didn't want her getting sick again), and she started digging at it furiously, hopping up with both front feet as she dug. The weed went flying across the driveway, and she ran after it, stood on it, and shredded it into little bits. Then she came back and tried to get the one I was digging out :lol: . I pointed at another one, and she started digging at it. By that time, I was wondering, "now, why couldn't you have done this when I was trying to fix the garden in our yard last summer!?" :lol: . She lost interest in weeding the garden when I moved to another plant, and went and layed back down. of course, when she saw us opening a bag of mulch, she was right back over there again, wanting to play in it :roll: . I finally got tired of trying to keep her out of it, and put a little handful for her out of our way. She spent a long time hopping around in it and scattering it around the driveway, playbowing and doing "zoomies" through it. By then it was getting dark, so we packed up and came back home, where she promptly hopped up in my chair for a nap :lol:

Well, Annie hates the rain, baths, wet grass, and puddles... but she'll swim :lol: She swims pretty good, but we have pretty strong undercurrents in some places around here, and she occasionally gets swamped by a wave or two, so she has a doggy life jacket. She also likes going in the boat, and is light enough that she doesn't count as an extra person like Goo does :roll: I don't know much about standards, but I think minis are usually more active, and standards tend to lean more towards the lazy side (that's just from what I've seen). It also seems like minis are more common than standards. The standards would be a bit larger, but minis seem to be faster and more agile, so they could get out of the way. Also, a standard would be a bit heavy for your sister to carry around if that's what she wants, as they can be up to 30lbs.

I'm so sorry shady :( I understand how you would want the dog to be PTS, but there are a few other things that should be thought about, too. As has been mentioned before, what if he gets another dog, and it ends up being the same as/worse than this one? If the problem is caused by an irresponsible owner, it will continue to happen again and again until they are held responsible for their actions. I also understand your fears about your other animals, and even your children. The dog would most likely take the opportunity to chase down another animal if it had the chance again. There's also a smaller chance that if it's got a high prey/hunt drive, and has had little socialization, that it would chase a child as well (though it might not bite it). It really depends on the individual dog, and it would be a good idea to discuss this further with your neighbor if you feel comfortable doing so. Tell him how you feel, and see what kind of solution you can work out. If he is unwilling to do so, then do what you feel you need to to protect your livestock, family, and yourself. Laduenda, I think you're jumping a bit too much on the victim in this situation, which isn't right, nor does it help the breed in any way. I would hesitate to wade in between ANY strange dog that was attacking another animal or person, even if it was an APBT. You have no idea whether this dog was purebred, or what lines it was out of, what training it had had, or anything, no idea of whether it was human friendly or not. Sure, it most likely was, but would you chance it, especially if it was a breed you weren't very familiar with. If shady lives on a lot of land, it's possible that the dog's owner lived several miles away, and the dog could already have inflicted a lot of damage by the time they had gotten the owner and came back. And if one of your dogs was fatally injured by a neighbor's dog, and suffering, would you drive it to the vet so you'd have proof that it was fatally wounded, or would you end it right there and save it from suffering longer? I know you're just trying to defend the dog, but you come across as trying to make it all shady's fault, when it was the fault of the owner, who left his dog in a situation where it could get loose and kill another person's pet.

Well, with an adult, it's more "what you see is what you get", and with a puppy of unknown breeding/origin, it's more of a "feel lucky today?" type thing. If I was going to go through rescue, I'd probably choose a young adult (1-5 yrs, doxies can live well into their teens) over a young pup. Through a responsible breeder, either would be fine with me (though I'd probably lean toward the young adult still, simply because I have some definite preferences that might not be noticeable in a pup). As for agility, some will tell you it depends on the dog, others will tell you "no way" should a doxie be doing all that jumping around. I feel that it's pathetic that the breed is supposed to be a hunting breed, yet due to people breeding without care to soundness (of the back), owners feel they can't even let their dogs run around in the yard for fear they might fall a few inches and hurt their backs. I've been playing around with Annie on the agility stuff in the yard for a couple years, and she does great with it. I also know that doxies are one of the breeds that qualify for the "lowered height" on jumps in agility, which in one club (don't remember which one) would put their jump height at 4". So yes, if your doxie is healthy, and seems to enjoy it, I say go ahead with the agility training (that's just how I feel though, and I'm definitely not an expert on it, so go with your instincts, or ask someone with more experience to be sure :wink: ) . First though, I'd have the vet x-ray his/her back to check for any calcified disks or other problems that might be aggravated by the training, and if I had a chance to talk to some knowledgeable breeders, ask them to check out the dog (in person would be better, but even a couple pics could help them identify any problem areas) and see if they saw anything that might cause problems. I also would get the dog as fit as possible before trying agility with it... at least a month of conditioning, maybe more depending on what kind of shape the dog was in when you got it.

Well first, if you are holding out any hope that he'll get tired of it, give up :lol: Then, either either learn to ignore the usounds or render the toys squeakless. Let him squeak a new toy for a few hours/days, then poke it in the squeaker a few times with a pin (if it's a stuffy... if it's one of those plastic/rubber balls, you can just cut a little "extra" hole in it). This will make it squeak less loudly, because not all the air will be going out through the squeaker. Some dogs don't even care if the toy still squeaks at all after they're had it a few days... they just "click" the squeaker instead of squeaking it :roll:

I probably should have been a little more clear about that... Annie has a great recall. I've actually called her off of chasing small animals, birds, ect, and she's never blown me off (YET :roll: , so I try to not let her get to into chasing or whatever she's doing if we're anywhere near a road). You have to make sure that they know that coming back to you is a million times better than sniffing around the yard, or chasing the neighbor's cat, or whatever they may come across. In Annie's case, I just made sure I always had something for her to play with if I had to call her back to me for something... I can remember several times when I'd pull off a glove and toss it for her, or a stick if there were any nearby, and we'd play for a few minutes every time she came back. Now she's great off-leash, and will "check in" without me even calling her. If I do call her back to me for some reason, she comes flying back and watches attentively to see what I'm going to have her do next. If you were to build a ramp along you stairs, it could just be a simple 2" x 6" or 2" x 8" board rested on the edges of the stairs (make sense?) on one side, that way it would be sturdy (Goo's 60 lbs, and a 2"x 6" is strong enough to hold her easily, so 100lbs might be ok even if one of the others did try it out) , and the other dogs probably wouldn't be TOO interested if it wasn't in the center where it would be in their way. Annie's actually a great dog to work with because she's very focused, and once she's concentrating on something, you could set a bomb off beside her and she wouldn't even know :wink:

[quote]A good point it that by the time your dog does show aggression it might be anywhere from 40 to 100 lbs depending on the lines. and by that time you need to have firm control over your dog. Yanking and pullin gon a leash is a horrible correction at this point. that is why i am a firm believer in getting your dog looking at you in an entire differnt direction. if need be put yourself between your dog and the other. APBTsarent people aggressive so if your dog is trained its a safe place to be. Get your dogs eyes off of the other dog as soon as you notice that he sees it. dont wait for the dog to be right on top of you. [/quote] I missed this post earlier, but out of curiousity, have you ever tried to hold a dog aggressive APBT behind you with one hand as you try to scare away another dog with the other hand? :lol: It's an interesting experience, and you'll feel something like a break dancer as you move your feet all around in an effort to keep your dog from "peeking" through your knees while your feet are apart, then around your legs if you keep your feet together. :roll: :lol:

Sure, a pit bull owner can happily visit the dogpark every day of their dog's life... and noone will mind when their dog eventually gets tired of being harrassed, goes for the other dog, and kills it. They can walk their 60 lb pit bull into a crowded petsmart on a flexi leash at full length, then panic, yell, and have a complete nervous breakdown when their dog goes flying under a display at another dog, because it's never done that before (this happened the other day while I was at petsmart... it took store personel and the owner nearly 10 minutes to get the dogs broken up and untangled... I just stood by and watched in disbelief). Afterwards they can claim that "he's never done that before", and the head trainer will claim that "most pit bulls are very unpredictable". All that's fine, and great publicity for the breed. Yet, if a pit bull owner should take their dog out in public on a leash and exercise caution around other dogs, not to mention warning new owners of the DOG aggression that will most likely show up at some point in the dog's life, they're making the dogs sound like killers and doing harm to the breed. They're also horrible owners for thinking that their dogs may one day act upon instincts that have been bred into them for hundreds of years. And of course they're not good dog owners for keeping their dogs away from situations that would cause conflict, or keeping their dogs on leash, or teaching them obedience, after all, what good dog owner does things like that? On a more personal note, I've owned a pit bull for nearly 10 yrs now, we've rescued/fostered several others since then, and currently have two living in our house(not nearly as much experience as many people involved in the breed). In addition, a good friend of mine's family has owned bull breeds for decades, and are always willing to "lend" their knowledge should I need help with something. What education do YOU have on the breed? Why do you think those pit bulls that you hear about on the news (barring those that aren't actually pit bulls) attack people? Do you think it's all in how they've been raised? If so, then how do you explain away the thousands of pit bulls who have been abused, starved, set on fire, "hacked up" with gardening tools, dragged behind cars, etc; yet still harbor a deep love for people? How do you explain away the dogs that have known nothing but love their entire lives, yet are still unstable, and end up being PTS because of it, or worse yet, attacking someone? Anyway, it's time for my "fake" (since I'm probably one of those people who are not "real" pit bull owners) pit bull to go outside again... they sure can be a lot of trouble for not even being real :lol:

She seems to have some trouble making up her mind about what her dogs are and aren't... on one page she says she doesn't crop her dogs.... yet there's a pic on another thread of a cropped dog that's supposedly hers. She also thinks that you can "train" a pit bull to interact properly with other dogs :roll: . And that human aggressive APBTs shouldn't be PTS, but instead sent to her, and she's "fix" them :o . She had 12 APBTs & 4 rescues two months ago... now she has 10? And of course, if one of her dogs (even her alpha male) gets into a fight, she can break it up simply by telling them to "drop it". After all, it's just a myth that they'll fight to the death :o . And all that health testing she does is just a reference for herself.... the owners don't need to know if their dogs line has a history of bad hips or PRA.... nope, not at all. She also supposedly is working with the police in her area to get APBTs on the canine force... great... I'm sure the public/media will love to see a pit bull running down a person and "mauling" their arm, bad guy or not :roll: . And she's against fighting, but her white dog is "game"? And that same dog has a great temperment, lunging at someone who walked up to her on the street in broad daylight? And if her dog's allergies don't cause him any problems, then why does he need a shot for them every month? Goo is allergic to something in our yard (it seems to be wet grass, but we're not 100% sure), and her allergies have been managed pretty well simply by keeping her from laying on the grass when it's wet. I'm actually beginning to wonder if her dog really has allergies, or if it's fur is falling out from too much radiation after all those x-rays :lol: I've given up trying to convince her of anything, I'm not a certified vet tech, or a breeder, or an "expert" on anything really, so I'm [i]obviously[/i] not knowledgeable enough to question her breeding ethics :roll:

We have a 5 yr old smooth mini Dachie, and she's been living here since she was 1 1/2 yrs old. BK described the dachsie personality pretty well... their original purpose required that they be pretty tough little dogs. Annie is dog aggressive (sometimes I think she lives for the chance that another dog might pick a fight with her so she can go at it with them) and fairly dominant towards the other dogs (except Goo, whom she worships :lol: ). She also has very high prey drive, and will chase anything that moves fast (this also included children, but we worked on that and she knows that they aren't to be chased down anymore :roll: ), which can be bad if you want a dog that can be left offleash (bunny runs across the street, dog follows, oops! :-? ). They also have a tendency to follow their nose wherever it takes them, and sometimes will tune you out completely, so you have to be sure to have a solid recall before EVER letting them offleash in an unenclosed area. As for stairs, we have stairs leading outside (one tall, steep set, and one short, not-steep set), and she has no problems getting up and down them, but if you're worried, you could maybe run a little "ramp" along the top of the steps on one side. This could be done with just a couple 6" or 8" wide boards or pieces of plywood. Some people also make ramps for their dachsies to get onto their furniture. Annie NEEDS exercise everyday, or she'll drive us crazy. We usually do an hour of obedience/fetch/swimming/running every day, and if we miss a day for some reason, I can expect to be out there longer than usual the next day while she runs off the extra energy. Some days in the spring/summer, we'll leave early in the morning, run to a park 4 miles away, play catch on the beach (with me throwing the ball in far enough that she has to swim out to get it), then run back home, and she'll still play ball later if I feel like taking her out. She's got decent obedience, but she's very toy/tug motivated, so it's not hard to get her to work. They don't seem to have a really high desire to please (compared to some of the "working" breeds), so there's got to be something good for them in the deal, or you can forget about them doing anything. I train Annie mostly with positive methods, but there are some situations where I'll use corrections, usually on a flat collar. In addition to the back problems they can have (some say that by keeping them well muscled up along their backs, you can decrease the risk of them having disk problems, it's also common for them to get bad teeth, and I've heard of some having slipping patellas. Here in the US, BYBs are producing a lot of dachsies with out-of-standard temperments, so watch for that. I've seen some that are extremely fear aggressive, shy, or snappish around children. Especially in a rescue dog (I DO support rescue, but make sure you evealuate the dogs' temperments carefully), who's owners may have thought it was "cute" to have a little dog that attacked peoples' ankles or barked nonstop when someone came into the house. They are a lot of fun, and I wouldn't mind having one at some point later on, even though I'm a fan of bigger dogs. Here's a couple pics of Annie Cute little dachsie tongue :lol: [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2373894a.jpg[/img] Not afraid of anything (this wave went right over top of her, and she looked like a drowned rat afterwards :roll: ) [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2373909a.jpg[/img] Dragging Goo across the floor [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2373945a.jpg[/img] Trying to get her tug back from Goo [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2637142a.jpg[/img] [img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2411682a.jpg[/img]

I don't think so, but maybe I'm missing something... [url]http://www.auspet.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000200.html[/url] The posts I'm referring to are towards the bottom of the thread, and are about breeding APBTs.

And of course the people who think "my dog would never do that, they love everything", "they're not from fighting lines", "they been raised only with love, never "trained" to fight", "they're very well trained, and they'd never disobey me", etc are the exact people who are usually so freaked out by their pit bull getting into a serious fight (due to their carelessness/ignorance) that they become afraid of the dog and either get rid of it or have it PTS. Then they carry on to everyone that the dog "turned" on it's "best buddy", and that they're sure it would have been a child next. After all, it was soooo friendly one second, then the next it was trying to kill another of "it's own kind". Often these very people, who once claimed that "it's all in how you raise them" will then decide that it must be "the breed", and that pit bulls really ARE unpredictable and dangerous. So not only do they create a ton of bad press when their dog injures/kills someone elses dog, but some of them also aid in the spread of myths of the breed because they can't stand to admit that THEY were the ones who messed up.

Rott 'n pit, the problem with correcting the dog when it starts to show signs that it's about to go after another dog is that there's not always signs that you can see.... some dogs don't do the tails up, hackles raised thing, they'll wag their tails right up until the dog is close enough, then go flying at them. It depends on the individual dog. And some dogs will actually get even more intense if they're corrected, especially if you use a leash correction. diamond, it's great that your dogs all get along now, but things will most likely change as your pup matures. She's just a baby, and is no real threat to the other dogs' ranks at this point, nor does she care about establishing her rank above them. If at some point she decides she's tired of being at the bottom of the heap (which she most likely will), there's a good chance that there will be conflicts between the dogs, and things can escalate quickly if another dog does something to "offend" a pit bull. She may even submit to them or put up with their bothering/nipping at her most of the time, but eventually she'll decide she's had enough, and when she does, she has the ability to seriously injure or even kill one of them within minutes. Laduenda is right about breaking stick(s) being a good idea to have, but you should check with the local laws too, because in some places they're considered "fighting paraphenelia". You can see an example of a breaking stick here: [url]http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html[/url] Here's the link to the board mentioned above: [url]http://pub89.ezboard.com/fdogcommunityfrm1[/url], and here's another site that provides a lot of info on bully breeds: [url]http://www.workingpitbull.com[/url]

Thanks for and the advice (and compliments) :lol: I know the "turning in" of the front foot is normal, but all the dogs that I've ever seen missing a front leg are usually smaller dogs, or dogs with fairly light bodies and sturdy legs. She's not too heavy, but her legs aren't really "big boned" either, and sometimes I almost expect to hear a "snap" when she tries to shoot off the couch (we're working with her on the furniture diving stuff :o ). I'm going to look more into the supplements suggested, and do some checking with the vet to see what's ok and what's not. And there are no hydrotheraphy places nearby, but as soon as it warms up, I'm going to try to get her in the water to do some swimming (so far she won't go within 4 or 5 ft of it :roll: ). The vet had mentioned something about a prosthetic, about a year ago, but also said that he had never heard of one being used on a front leg (anyone? :lol: ), and that it could cause more problems because she's already had problems with fluid buildup in her "stump" from banging it on things, and if she put weight on it (and the prosthetic), it might cause the same thing to happen again.

[quote]most dogs can be fighters and most pit bulls(ALL BREEDS) are known to be fighting dogs if you train them to fight or attack! I have two friends who will only buy red noses becasue of their beautiful personality, the oldest red nose I know is 6 years old and does not have an aggressive side to her, I have done my research to know that the way you train your puppy is the way it will act just like a child. So if you do your research you will see that all dogs can be trained to attack and all dogs can be trained to love and not be aggressive.[/quote] Not true. Why do you think that pit bulls are the breed used most often to fight? It's because they're [i]great[/i] at it. It's what they were bred for for over 100 yrs.... and because of that, no other breed (as a whole, there may be some individual dogs of other breeds who could hold their own against certain pit bulls, but not great numbers of them). All that time of being bred to go against other dogs has led to several inborn traits in the pit bull... First, "gameness"... there will be a dozen (if not more) different opinions on what constitutes "gameness", but here's a simple, broad one: the will to never give up, never quit, even when tired, uncomfortable, and in pain. Second, complete non-aggression towards humans... in the past, if a pit bull (especially a fighting pit bull) bit a person it was killed (there are some cases in which the dogs were not killed, but they are few compared to those that were). It did not pass on it's genes, it did not "get rehabilitated". That left only the most stable dogs as breeding stock, which in turn has led to pit bulls being a stable breed today. Of course, you will find the occasional overly shy dog, or even out-of-it's-mind aggressive dog, due to BYBs and other people breeidng without consideration to temperment, but on the whole, the breed is one of the more stable out there. Three, dog/animal aggression... you really don't think that 100+ yrs of being bred to kill other dogs/animals would result in a dog with no desire to do so, do you? Not all pit bulls will be animal aggressive, and there are varying intensity/levels to those that do, but most will show at least some, so it's a safer thing to assume your dog will become animal aggressive at some point, take precautions, and have a live, happy dog; than to assume that "it's all in how they're raised/trained, treat them like "any other dog", and end with a dead dog and a lawsuit because of it. I can give examples of dog aggressive dogs that coexist peacefully with several other subordinate dogs in a house, yet will go after a strange dog with such intensity that it's all you can do to control them... just as I can give examples of pit bulls that will control themselves until pushed, then "turn on" with that same intensity as described above... or those that will scream with rage anytime they see another dog... right on to those that have never so much as lifted a lip at another dog... YET. The fact is that MOST pit bulls will display some dog aggression at some point in their life, due to their genetic makeup, and if they get into a fight, they will in most cases have the ability to finish it, also due to their genetic makeup. The best you can do is train, socialize, and prepare for the day that you might find yourself staring at "another dog", because that's what you'll see if they get into a fight. Dog aggression usually starts to show between the ages of 1-3 yrs, but there have been accounts of dog "turning on" as late as 12 yrs, and as early as 4 months. It's not all "in how you train them"... it's also in "what you got to begin with". You start off with a pup, that pup may have certain genetic predispositions... like dog aggression, or desire to retrieve, or desire to herd. Then you start training... it's like swimming in a river, you can go either against the current or with it. Going against the current will be harder, but you may not have much choice if the current is heading someplace you don't want to be. Of course, you may not be able to fight your way up the entire river to where you want to be, so you do as much as you can... or you could always just quit and go with the flow. The river is basically the dog's natural traits... and it's taking you to wherever/whatever the untrained, unsocialized dog will be like. You can fight it, but it may be a constant struggle at some points, and you will probably never completely "change" or "cover up" the dog's inborn traits, just as you may never make it up the way up the river against the current. Make sense? You CAN'T "train out" dog aggression. It will always be there... you may be able to control it with training and/or socialization, but the desire to act aggressively towards other animals will still be there if the dog was/is born with it. If not, then you're one of the "lucky" few who ended up with a completely non-animal aggressive dog, but better to be safe than sorry, right?

The problem with getting a dog from a known "working" breed is that most have already been completely ruined by BYBs and people breeding only for conformation. Look at GSDs... Rotties... Dobies.... all BYB'ed or bred so much for "correctness" here in the US that it's hard to find a decent one without having it imported. And if you wanted a "bully looking" mastiff, like the presa or cane corso, you'd also have to search carefully for a decent breeder in the US (a lot of them use imported dogs anyway). So there isn't a huge abundance of working quality dogs in the US, but there are some if people take the time to look and do research. The main argument I've heard for these dogs is that no other dog has the gameness of an APBT, and most other dogs (even trained protection dogs) have enough self preservation instinct that they'll bail out of a conflict when things get too tough. So they figure that in crossing a gamebred APBT with a mastiff, some of the pups will get the gameness of their ancestors. Whether or not that holds true is questionable. And while they were originally bred to be fighters (as Hmmm said), they are now used mainly as protection dogs, not as fighters (which makes sense, considering that they couldn't hold their own against the APBT). Also, a lot of the dogs bred today are not bred in the same way as the Swinford dogs were, he died(I think?) before he had the crosses the way he wanted them, and people use different "formulas" for breeding them today. And in 10 yrs, bandogs won't be in places where APBTs have been banned... because they're [b]part[/b] APBT, and as such will be included in the definition of a "pit bull" for BSL purposes. They'll be banned just as any other pit bull mix (or presa mix, for that matter, since Presas are being banned in some areas as well). And the more breeders who start to wants to breed bandogs, the worse off the "breed" (and those breeds used to create it) will become. When these dogs make their way into the homes of irresponsible people, the "average" dog owner, there will be more attacks from them than there [b]ever[/b] have been by "pit bulls"... but of course the "pit bull" will bear the brunt of the attacks. timbos13, you seem to be only interested in having a dog that looks good and "is big and strong", but you fail to realize that crossing an APBT with another breed can and often does take away the bite inhibition that the APBT breed is famous for. That, coupled with this new "breed"s strength and size will create a dog that will be dangerous in the hands of anyone except an experienced dog owner, willing to be responsible and overly cautious with their dog. Not to mention that in crossing the APBT with the presa, or neo, you increae the chances of the pups having health problems that are prevelant in those breeds.