Hobbit

Daiseysmom -- has she ever been checked for Giardia or Cryptosporidium?

Crested, I totally understand your fears. The absolutely hardest thing I ever done in my life is to have Hobbit neutered. Not only because he is out of an excellent cattle working bloodline and is becoming a good working dog himself --- because he is the LAST of that bloodline. His dam is old and the sire has died. If something were to happen to his brother and sister, that particular bloodline would be lost forever........forever......it would be gone. Hobbit had (it's been corrected) a genetic defect that may or maynot have been passed to his progeny. I didn't want to take that chance and have a defect in my line. So, very, very reluctantly --- I had him neutered. Everytime I work him and everytime he excels at something......I play the "what if" game. I put his health and well being above all else. Have Ben tested and go from there. A female and male under the same roof --- she WILL get bred. No matter how careful you are and how many precautions you take --- IT WILL HAPPEN. The only way to ensure a dog doesn't runaway or go on adventures is to have a safe--very safe-- enclosure or keep him continually on a leash, with you on the other end. Dogs have a mind of their own. Some stay home and some don't > neutered or not.

I read this, then read something else....then came back. This was a discussion from a while back, too. I still stand by what I said then. It made you mad then and it will make you mad now. Ben has allergies. He is miserable. He will pass this on to his pups. The pups will be miserable.......but by golly they will have GOOD TEETH! Which is ALL you care about and will be breeding for. Crested you have your mind made up, as you did a while ago. Why do you keep asking for our opinion? You keep saying it's not natural to neuter a dog (him). If nature had anything to do with it....Ben would not survive in nature. That would take care of a lot of things.....puppies with allergies that will be miserable, substandard offspring, genetic defects....etc... I have a dog with allergies. She is miserable, absolutely miserable. She has to have medication and shots all the time. They have stopped working. She scratches until she's exhausted and her skin is bleeding. It's not dry skin, it's allergies. Oh I could breed her because she has good teeth........see how ridiculous that sounds. No, we have chosen to try some other medications. If these fail, we have no choice but to put her to sleep. Her quality of life is diminishing. She is miserable, stops eating, stops being happy. She just wants to stop. I could beat the crap out of the breeder ---- yes, her sire has allergies!!

[quote name='Poofy']You said: A merle-merle breeding would not "clean-up" the color. More than likely the offspring from this mating would be white with minimum amounts of color. If a high percentage color pup was produced, the color would be lighter than normal. Actually, you are incorrect on this one. [color=red][b]No, I am not incorrect -- you have just not taken into consideration the rest of my post.[/b][/color] As I have seen it done and utilized in sheltie and collie breeding programs. [color=darkred][b]I have seen this in Australian Shepherds and Border Collies. [/b][/color]These double dilutes, when bred do produce better blue merles then those who may be merle and carry discoloration in the coat. The F1 generation, the all white or nearly all white blue merle, is not the goal, its the offspring of that dog and what it will produce. [color=red][b]When bred to a black, the merle that is produced is what you are taking about, so was I in the later portion of my post. [/b][/color] That is really the only reason I have seen people do these breedings. [color=darkred][b]This can be achieved in other ways, other than merle to merle mating. [/b][/color]Now, *why*, it is like that...I have no idea.....I have a hypothosis as to why, but its not in relation to the double merle. [color=red][b]I want very much to explain this, but since I am still pirating a computer and was threatened last night to be banned from the business....I do have time to elaborate. Wait, I just remembered....I may have explained this in a post to Working Koolie about merles. You'll have to find it, don't have time now. The gate keeper is sneering at me. Boy, I'd like to poke her beady eyes out!![/b][/color] Since M only works on black pigment, dogs who are MM and do not carry excessive brown coloration (pewter tinge) to their coat, will come out with a clear high blue to white color, those that have it would/should still be discolored. That high blue is highly sought after in shelties. [color=darkred][b]Are you referring to "Maltese Blue"? Well, I can't answer you if you respond!! This is killing me....you how much of a genetics nerd I am! [/b][/color]So those are then bred and they are less likely to produce that discoloration. Who know...all I can tell you is that is why the MM is often sought after as a dog in a blue merle/tri breeding program. Most people do not have the knowledge of genetics and thinks the only way to obtain a merle is to breed merle to merle. This, of course, is not true. Merle to solid will produce merle (and solid). Yes, a double merle bred to a black solid will produce an entire litter of merles. Yup, you are correct. But I am not reffering to the average person, I am reffering to true knowledgable breeders. [b][color=red]If they want to clean up a mismark, there are still other ways to go about it other than playing with fire (merle to merle). That's the lazy way. [/color][/b] Breeding merle to merle is taking a chance ............ at the expense of the pups. As with any breeding. [color=darkred][b]Not like you are with merle to merle, KNOWING that this mating could result in fatal results. [/b][/color] You take the life of those dogs in your hands when you bring them into the world. No its not a simple choice...but those who have made it wisely, have reaped the benefits. [color=red][b]It doesn't matter how long a person has been breeding --- there is no way to tell how many lethal's will be produced from a merle to merle mating.[/b][/color] [/quote]

[quote name='Bensam']Over the last few days Ben had gotten worse, yesterday he couldn't stand up by himself, just laid flat in his bed. I nursed him right through the night and this morning had him PTS. Oh God, it hurts. Please let there be a heaven for these little people. Rest in Peace, Ben. Marvellous Memories.[/quote] So sorry for your loss. He is in a better place without pain. Sleep well, my friend, Ben. The angels are your caretaker, for now...........

[quote name='Poofy']There are reasons to do a merle to merle breeding. When a double dilute is used in a blue merle breeding program, it can help correct color faults and or "pewter" discoloration in the coat. There is an increased risk for having no ears or eyes due to the doubling of the merle gene...however those "defects" are not "inheritable" as they are associated only with the presence of M in homozygous form. Most dogs do have their eyes and eye sight, deafness is more common...however there are many that are also normal. Its one of those choices a breeder has to decide if they are capable of making.[/quote] [b]I am yet pirating a dial-up server computer, STILL have NO access from a DSL server! So, I can't respond back to any inquiries. [/b] A merle-merle breeding would not "clean-up" the color. More than likely the offspring from this mating would be white with minimum amounts of color. If a high percentage color pup was produced, the color would be lighter than normal. Most people do not have the knowledge of genetics and thinks the only way to obtain a merle is to breed merle to merle. This, of course, is not true. Merle to solid will produce merle (and solid). Yes, a double merle bred to a black solid will produce an entire litter of merles. Breeding merle to merle is taking a chance ............ at the expense of the pups.

Kiwi, I contacted a PhD in genetics, she said the color was due to the severe Piebald gene. The all white litter was very rare and she would question the actual sire of the litter. I can't answer back, as I can't access Dog-o from home. I'm pirating a computer.

:lol:

[quote name='laduenda']My dogs are not going to be the ones that got out and ripped up some old ladies chihuahua as they will not get out I make sure of that hence all the regulations on chaining in my contract. [color=red][b]ONE of YOUR dogs already got out and was ultimately put to sleep. Remember Taz? Or was that just too long ago?[/b][/color] I am [b]very sure of what my dogs would do [/b]if they got loose they would go find the nearest dog and rip into them that is a given. [b][color=darkred]If you are VERY sure, then you have fought your dogs. Otherwise, how would you be VERY sure of what they'd do, because they NEVER get loose?[/color][/b] They are Apbts you know. You don't knwo me how come you always thinkl my dogs will get loose. They wont that I am very sure of. [color=red][b]You are living in a dream world. I know some very well accomplished dogmen, who have been breeding APBT's for more than 25 years and they have had accidents. It's going to happen. An APBT can pull upwards of 2500 to 3000lbs. Do you really think that the leather collar around their neck is going to hold if they were to start pulling? Or lunging and pulling? NO, it's going to snap and break like glass. And guess what? The loose dog isn't going to run out of your yard to find another dog to fight with. He/she is going to go after YOUR other dogs that are chained up! [/b][/color] No having puppies does not bring in the money I alwyas end up spending more mony there are lots of things to buy that puppies need as well as the Dam.How many people with gamebred dogs do you know that actually gets them of f the chain every day? [b][color=darkred]A man from Austin has very well bred dogs, from historically game-bred foundation bloodlines. He rollerblades 10 miles a day, before work and after work with them --- everyday. They live in the house, they both have kennels, one has run of the house. [/color][/b] I know someone with 60 dogs and I know it would be impossible to go 60 hours straight walking dogs(no they are not a puppy mill nor are they a friend of mine)So why don't you pick on people like that or people that let their dogs run free ?[/quote]

The color is an optical illusion. Shaving it caused the illusion. Yeah, he is handsome. Not quite the lady's man, yet. He's too busy, no time for women, wine or song. He has absolutely no anomosity towards any dog. He isn't in the least bit dog aggressive. He loves everyone he meets and is just sure that they love him and want to pet him. :roll: He is afraid of Pugs and Boston Terriers.

[quote name='Jacsmom']Alright Bubble Guy!! Or should I call him MarkMan!! :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote] Well, you can call him Ray, or you can call him Jay, or you can call him RJ....let's hope it's never, "Marks-a-lot". Didn't rhyme, did it?...... :drinking: oh well.

[quote name='bk_blue']Wonderful news, I am happy it has all turned out so well. :angel: Re: my post I made under "radiographs"- has the leg regained colour now the halo is off?? (maybe it is a silly question but to me there was a marked difference in the colour of his affected leg to his other legs.)[/quote] Amazing the color difference --- caused by shaving his leg. Hope that didn't scar him for life >> you know, the other dogs seeing his leg shaved. :lol:

Modifier - A gene that exerts an effect on another gene. It does not act on it's own. Example: it affects how much copper is present in a tan highlighted dog. If a dog does not have tan highlights, then the effects of any modifiers will not be seen (even though they are present). Minus Modifier - A modifying gene or collection of modifying genes that acts to reduce pigment from whatever color or pattern the dog already has. A dog with no spotting pattern (solid color) may have a few white hairs on his chest, or a white toe has minus modifiers pulling pigment from him. Dogs with a spotting pattern, like a collar, minus modifiers can further extend the collar beyond the withers. Plus Modifier - A modifying gene (or collection of modifying genes) that adds pigment to whatever spotting pattern is present. A full Irish spotting pattern --- like a full collar, white legs, blaze face --- can be reduced to a partial collar, to white feet, and little or no blaze, depending on their number and action.

Kiwi -- it's more than likely a severe piebald gene (since this gene is common in Bull Terriers).

...... :hmmmm: who do you want to implicate? :lol:

Does having puppies require any training? :niewiem: :drinking:

[quote name='yellowlabsrule']YEAH! This'll sound dumb, but why did Guy have to have surgery? I never found out! :o :( Did the horses hurt him???? ???? ???[/quote] Yes. It really....technically....wasn't their fault, sort of anyway. In August, Guy (only 12 wks old) followed me out to feed. He always stays right at my heels. I fed and was walking back with him gleefully hopping right behind me. Reggie and Soot (for what ever possessed them on that day) had snuck by behind me and turned the horses and they ran over Guy. I never saw Reggie or Soot, until I heard the horses --- as they dang near took me out, too. It happened too fast and I was not able to grab Guy. I have appologized to him since that day. And on any NORMAL day, the horses would have just looked at them and thumbed their nose. They are dog-broke. Meaning, they are not afraid of the dogs. Guy was stepped on. It broke his scapula and radius (same leg). The vet pinned the scapula because it was a very fine hair line from being a compound fracture. It healed, as did the radius, beautifully. The PROBLEM -- the trauma caused the growth plate to close prematurely on the ulna, thus; causing the leg to take on an angular deformity (banana shape). The radius continued to grow; the ulna did not. It also caused the elbow to be torn from the socket --- because the leg was twisting and pulling. So, Dec 3. We decided to have surgery to repair the elbow and the leg. The leg had to be lengthened and straightened. During this time --- he grew an inch! It was almost beyond my realm of patience (with several things that happened after the surgery). I am glad it is over. We are desperately trying to convince him to NOT jump off the back of the sofa. To use the floor when he walks. He wants to jump from thing, to thing, to thing......makes me crazy. He takes great delight in sailing from furniture to furniture and seeing me almost have a heart attack. He must remain calm.....no jumping or harsh activity.....for 3 more (very long) weeks, until the bones are stable and hard enough to take the abuse that he intends on giving them. It has been TOUGH convincing him that he can not run, stalk, herd or play rough.

[quote name='gigishiba']Oh the little booger! Marking and barking. :shake: He's young. He'll learn not to "test" his dad. Can he go eat with mom yet?[/quote] They had snacks together. This evening, he went for a visit and they kissed and gossiped for a while. They are so cute together. Marking and barking --- :lol: .

Figured you were :drinking: :drinking: reading posts and laughing your :hmmmm: (no icon for that) off!

Goo -- you said the magic word.... [color=blue][b]TRAINING[/b][/color]! Which Laduenda "doesn't want to" do.

[quote name='DogPaddle']The split between working and nonworking BC lines is well under way here. Generally both camps are fairly responsible about ensuring working dogs go to working environments and nonworking dogs are not purchased by people who need to rely on the dog to work livestock. [b][color=red]Mostly that is what is happening here in the US. Unfortunately, some of the working dog breeders are starting to sell their working dogs to non-working families, because they can get more money from them. Sad, but true. AND yes, that does make them "in it for the money". [/color][/b] I still think many people who take on non-working BCs are not prepared for the drive to do something and intensity of these dogs but that is another issue. [color=darkred][b]That is true, very true. [/b][/color] Hobbit - Are you concerned that with the split into working and non-working BCs there will not be enough working dogs to fill the need or that the split will not be complete enough and the working traits of BCs will be compromised? [b][color=red]A little of both, more the later. There will always be good working dogs available from people that actually work their dogs for a living. If the economy continues to get worse, there is always the threat of them selling to non-working families --- because of the money issue.[/color][/b] As to Hazel it sounds like she was from working lines and sent to a pet home and that could be a bit of an issue. If so Hazel would definately need some serious outlet for her drive/energy.[/quote]

Yes, that is an Australian Kelpie. We have working Kelpies and Australian Cattle Dogs, mostly. We also have 3 Border Collies and 2 Anatolian Shepherds. Yes, that would be me.....the "anti-cross thy BC" person.

[quote name='Kiwi']This genetics stuff is WAY over my head :-? I'm adament that one day I'll get it though :o Hobbit, I have a question regarding the litter Kobi was from. Her Dam was brindle, and her Sire was white carrying brindle, yet all 9 puppies from the litter turned out to be white :-? Is this normal? I know that in the coloured Bull Terriers, the preferred colour is brindle - as it is so easily "lost" in this breed, but surely some of the dogs in that litter should have been coloured?[/quote] Brindle is said to be a dominant gene. Was the dam a carrier of the "Piebald" gene? This is common in Bull Terrier's. Have these particular parents been mated again? If so, was the entire litter white? If mated again, this complete coloration may not occur again. Sire and dam are extreme white factored. No, this isn't normal. It sounds like an extreme case of severe white piebald.

Isn't that the truth. Some doctors think they know [b]YOUR[/b] body better than you! :lol:

Are you going to ship? Or pick him up? Just curious. If you don't want to answer on the board, please pm me.