science_doc

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: These were the responses I was afraid of when I posted. I'm still really torn about the situation and here is why......I don't know where else to work on recall off lead and as I was saying on a long lead she comes back to me without fail. I have always known that adopting a husky or "northern" type breed means poor recall at best. So I never expected to be able to go off lead without a fence. I just wish this place had a slightly better fence. I guess for the next couple of weekends I'm going to take her there and work with her on lead with distractions and see what her response is like. I'm not worried about her going over the fence as much as under while I'm still 100 yards away and out of site(17 acres is HUGE). In her surrender paperwork her former owners state that she had a fenced yard, so I am thinking she will likely be alright, but I'm still torn. As you all know life with a door dasher is bad enough let alone when the dog takes off across busy roads once she gets out. I think the problem is that when she runs I PANIC and the tone of my voice is too high? All the books I have read on the topic suggest that the best way to deal with a runner is find a safe place for them to burn off that energy so they will be less likely to bolt at every opportunity. Based on all this I feel completely stuck. I want to work with her and help her learn, but I don't want her to be hit by a car either. I would be very open to other training suggestions and we are taking professional classes, this just all takes lots of time and patience. She is pretty good at class, sitting, staying, coming (on a leash for now), down, etc.

I used to post here from time to time, and now I wanted to post here again. For those of those who don't know or can't remember, I adopted a husky mix from a local shelter about 9 months ago. She is everything I ever dreamed of in a dog. An absolute JOY! She gets along great with our cats too, which is terrific. We have already done one basic obdience class and are waiting to start the next class. One more detail about Hailey (pretty for those of you who remember, LOL), she is what looks to be a husky/hound mix. So now the problem......She has poor recall skills. I know what you are thinking right now, of course she does silly, think about her mix. Well that's still not my problem. We have been working hard on recall and she does awesome on a long lead, but when she has gotten loose from me, door dashing, etc., she is gone and refuses to come back without lots of work on my part. Just last week a new 17 acre fenced dog recreation area (not an open to everyone who can get there) opened and I had Hailey were there last weekend. Part of the temperment test for the park (a VERY good idea btw) was an off leash interaction with other dogs. Reluctantly I let her off her leash and as I suspected she took off for the far side of the moon. She came back to me after 5-10 mintues, so that was good, but I'm worried. She only stays interested in playing with the other dogs a few moments and then she just wants to RUN RUN RUN. The fench around this park is the "roll out" type that is basically big squares of wire and only about 4.5 feet tall. I am worried that she will take off and then dig under or climb over the fence. The park owners tried to reassure me that it would be safe, but what do you guys think? I don't want to keep my poor dog from running and playing, but I also want to keep her and not loose her..........I have been completely obsessed with thinking about this problem. She had so much fun and the fench definately contained her, but she did check the fence and run along it. In my head she was checking for gaps, just looking for her escape route. Well guys what do you think, am I crazy or is this park not as "safe" as the owners want me to feel? Okey dokey I just read the thread about dog parks and how most of you seem to feel that they are a bad idea. I was wondering where would be another good place to work on recall without a lead? She comes back to me when on a 50 ft. lead EVERY TIME I call her the problem seems to only be when she is off lead. I live in an apartment and we walk/run 2 hours a day, but I know that is not enough exercise. PLEASE don't flame me.....I'm just looking for some advice from people with experience. This dog area is well designed and cool I can post the rules and tests if anyone is interested.

I would just like to add a scientific tid bit for everyone to think about......There have been MANY scientific studies about aging, since everyone would like to live longer, right? Can anyone guess the ONE factor that seems so far to increase life span in rodents and primates? You guessed it, Caloric restriction. There is also TONS of good evidence to suggest that excess fat leads to dramatic increases in cancer. All of these things happen in people as well as lab animals I am afraid, which is why I have been on a diet for the last 10 years :wink:

:o I just posted a question like this on another forum! I am wondering about the 2 different types of chips that are out there. I know that most places only have 1 chip reader and they can't read the other type of chip. Does anyone know if one brand is more popular than the other in the U.S.? I am concerned with a husky that she might wander very far and then I want the "right" chip. Maybe I'll get both?

BTW, the vet trip yesterday, turns out she has an infected anal gland not worms.....I'm not sure which is worse, YUCKY

I'm sorry the thread expired, they take the dogs adopted over the weekend off their website on monday morning.....guess I just have to post some of my own photos. And since there seems to be confusion.....I do happen to be female, yes there are some of us in the science world, LOL

Okay so I didn't have a chance to get on line yesterday, to busy enjoying my new baby. I still haven't decided on a new name yet, but I'm leaning toword Baliey, you guys were right, she will respond to anything with a "e" at the end. So she was SPOILED in her old life, but she is responding remarklably fast to a little training. I am starting slow, since I don't want her to think she can't have any fun. I couldn't get her to eat the food I bought , so late last night, I ran to the store and bought so wet food which she ate like a piggy. Someone has fed her table scraps, which I refuse to do, but when I'm eating all I have to say is go lie down and she leaves me alone. I suspect she has intestinal worms, we all know the evidence I won't get into yucky details, so we have a date with a vet this afternoon. Yesterday I gave her a bath and she was SUPERBLY behaved, so far I find no particular behavior reason why the former owners would have wanted to dump her at the humane society, but I sure am lucky that they did.....pictures to follow soon guys.

Thanks much for the input. I guess I'll just have to play it by ear and see what gets her going. I did find some treats she likes and she needs lots of work, so I guess to get some quick control I'll try treats to start. We are going to a free obdience class offered by the Humane Society and in a bit I want to get her enrolled in a formal class, I think we both have some learning to do. Another neubie question: When can you trust a dog off leash? Unfortunately for us all the dog parks in town aren't fenced. In addition she is part husky, not the most trustworth dog off leash, although I used to see a couple huskies off leash at the park. I just want to maximize her exercise since I don't have a fenced yard, and my last dog really loved romps at the park. But, I have been thinking in hindsight, letting my last dog off leash at those parks wasn't too smart and I'm lucky nothing bad ever happened. We are going to run or walk a couple of miles a day and judging from today that will tire her out, but dogs just seem to happy hanging out with other dogs?

Whew, now that I got that out here are a few more details. She has gotten very little training, but today we already started establishing the alpha thing. I have got her sitting to be leashed, eat, etc. and she has this weird habbit of yowling while she is excited. She is a little hand and hug shy, so I wonder if the kids she lived with were a bit rough. I already have her rolling over and showing me her belly, so I'm working out the trust issues. The best news of all is that her best friend, according to her surrender sheet was a......CAT. I can't wait till all our pets are together again. I'm sure this time it will work out, she is extremely gentle, I already introduced her to my neighboor boys and she liked them alot. I spent about $100 bucks at the pet store on a nylabone (which she whined/howled like crazy for, I figured out when she starts that whining crap, if I turn my back she stops, so I'll get that nipped in the bud), food, new bed, etc. However, I tired to feed her after the walk and she got pretty excited, but when I put the food down, she sniffed, then tried to tip the bowl over and won't eat yet. I hope she likes the food cause in all my excitment I bought a 20# bag, I'm such a spaz. Her former owners fed her Kibbles-N-Bits, but I tried to upgrade to IAMS (I know not the best, but it's a start in the right direction). Anyway I'm totally pumped, she is going to be a GREAT dog.

SHE'S MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So perfect in every way :D She was pretty hyper at the shelter so we just went for a 2 hour walk and now she is alseep on the floor. I'm totally in LOVE!

I was wondering how many people use food treats when training and how many people just use praise or a clicker or something else I haven't thought about? I have heard that the praise method is better, but I am wondering what the opinons are out there. I have been thinking about trying the praise method first and if that doesn't work switching to treats to keep my dogs(I hope by the end of today) attention?

Okay guys, going to the shelter, opens in about 1 hour....I am SO EXCITED! I hope she is there waiting for me, I have a feeling this was ment to be....I spotted her about 2 weeks ago, but this is the first opportunity I have had to go meet her, HOORAY :D

Thanks for all the warm wishes.....I'm getting worried now that I am attached to her, if she is gone I'm going to be distraught and I haven't even met her yet, LOL I am hooked on dogs :drinking:

Let's see if this link works: [url]http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=1602652&adTarget=468doggeneral&SessionID=3eb1799175d082ef-app2&display=&preview=&row=0[/url] She is SOOOOOOO cute, can't wait to meet her :P

Okay everyone cross your paws for me...... The local shelter has a husky mix that I might be adopting this weekend: [url]www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi...iew=&row=0[/url] I haven't met her yet and I'm a little concerned about the howling with an apartment, but the last 2 dogs I tried to adopt were gone before I even met them (the 2nd was a pure bred shiba, drat ) I hope next time I post it will be cute stories about the new family member

Whoops, that last post was me, forgot to sign in :oops:

Hooray Kiger, I agree 100% with your statement that pure=sick/mutt=healthy is believed incorrectly by many average people. I also agree that many dog breeders do strive to imporve the breed and are doing the best they can with the rules currently in place. I will even agree that the average mutt that has had poor nutrition/care it's whole life is likely to be a sick dog too. However, I am so happy that people out there see the problems with the closed gene pools of some show dogs. I haven't ever said that fixing the problems would be easy, but if we don't start to think about this now, it could get to be too late.

For those of you who missed it(LOL), check this out: [url]http://www.discover.com/apr_03/featscienceof.html[/url] At the very least this is an interesting article in a fairly good science magazine (note, not a peer reviwed journal) I would love to debate this topic again :P

I don't think "hybrid vigor" is a myth...... :wink: Want me to come and "help" the other side?

I know that I should just let this topic drop, but as a scientist I HAVE TO BE a stickler for details. That's the cool thing about science, there is evidence and more evidence and eventually you convince people that your evidence is enough to prove or disprove a hypothesis. However to do this stuff we HAVE TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO DETAILS. We are not allowed to speak in generalities, rough approximations, and vague ideas. Poofy you keep saying things that are flat out wrong or at the very least misconstrewed, this is not a difference in how a book "reads": 1. Transposons were also first associated with bacterial and viral resistance to antibiotics. I'm sorry but viruses are not killed by antibiotics, so they don't need to develop resistance. I know you are all thinking these are petty points, but to the trained eye these petty points show the difference between understanding the topic of genetics and having a rough idea about some genetic topics whic you developed by skimming a textbook. 2. I don't know who shigella is. Shigella is a type of bacteria that infects the gastrointestinal tract, not a person. Now I am the one who is "surprised you don't know that". 3. Crossing over can introduce genetic diversity (This is by far the one thing that irritates me most) Crossing over simply changes around the order of the genes present in a phenotype it's not the same thing as introducing new allelels into a population. There is no way that crossing over can be compared to genetic diversity, just not the same thing. I still stand by the original idea at the start of this thread, inbreeding is bad for a population and no one has yet given any type of scientific evidence to the contrary so I for one am still not convinced.

Rosebud, Knowing little about ridgeback genetics I am not sure why outcrossed ridgebacks are bigger, except wait.......here is a crazy idea: Perhaps the outcrossed dogs are bigger because the are HEALTHIER! I have already tried to explain that I realize that the current dog breed standards make inbreeding seem the only option to make champion dogs. I am just simply trying to point out that there are going to contiune to be "diseses" specific to each breed until breeders clean up their lines or whatever with a little outcrossing.

And William S Klug says: The coded information in DNA is first transferred during a process called inscription INTO a messanger RNA molecule. The MRNA subsequently associates with a cellualr organelle, the ribosome, where it undergoes translation into a protien, the end product of almost all genes. p8 Concepts of Genetics AGAIN POOFY WRONG WRONG WRONG THE PROCESS OF MAKING mRNA FROM DNA IS CALLED TRANSCRIPTION The reason I called your mumbo jumbo mish mash is that your are not participating in a logical discussion. As Hobbit said, why are you talking about bacteria at all? I asked why you were talking about "gram positive" because bacteria are a prokaryotes not a eukaryotes and the genetics of one do not usually apply to the genetics of the other, not logical. You need to know virtually nothing about the molecular genetics of bacteria and bacteria phage to discuss the problems of inbreeding. In addition plant genetics, things that can't move and so have a very different approach to life, will also not help your dog breeding program very much either.......why bother discussing side topics, tell me how inbreeding helps dog breeds? The problem is that you cannot provide a sound argument on the value of inbreeding from any textbook/book newer than 1922. Science done 10 years ago is out of date, so what would you suspect about science done 80 years ago? I think you posted all that malarky on bacteria to make yourself appear knowledgeable to those without the benefit of a scientific education. Please stick to the subject since you are going to confuse people. As for proteins and DNA......you are correct about proteins being encoded by DNA, but your post implied that they are part of DNA which they ARE NOT. They can bind to DNA and influence transcription and the ribosome is the site of translation so at least you got that part right. I don't agree with breeding mutts and selling them, however the genetics explaination on that site was good for those with little background knowledge. I'm just trying to help those out there with little or no genetic understanding to think a little about the REAL DANGER of inbreeding.

PLEASE as a favor to everyone, Poofy and Hummmmm, check out the links posted by me on this thread and by Hobbit posted on the other thread........I understand why you think inbreeding is so important, but just realize that there are risks/costs for doing this and someday there will be reprecussions in dog breeds.

poofy, Once again, all of your examples about why inbreeding is good come from dog breeders or rabbit breeders or people trying to create a certain "look". I will not argue that inbreeding is the easiest way to achieve a "look", but all those diseases you mention in other breeds that you would never outcross with are present because of inbreeding. In fact if you bred your dogs to some of those dogs, the pups could be less likely to carry those diseases than the sire and dam. Again, when you outbreed there are more combinations of alleles which prevent the appearance of a disease in a population. Getting rid of affected individuals will NOT remove the problem alleles from the population. When those allelels remain in the inbred population they will come together to affect the offspring. Cull or selectively breed all you want, someday all the individuals in your gene pool will carry the disease, then you will be FORCED to outcross. This is not my rule it is mother nature's rule and dog breeders are just seeing the tip of the iceburg. God help dogs, if a new canine virus pops up (think SARS in people), all the dogs are going to be sick. RR, After the last couple of BS posts I realize that poofy knows very little about genetics at all, be careful when taking advice on a topic where random words can be used to impress people... Rosebud, The purpose of inbreeding the mice was to create disease models. The lines used to create the models are/were checked for health and are free of disease before inbreeding. We know that the diesease arose through random mutation (please let me know if you guys want to know what a mutation is) which was then "set" in the line. We know far more about the genetics of our mice than dog breeders do about their dogs.

I must say that all the questions asked of me have been answered perfectly by Hobbit. I just don't understand why breeders fail to see that the "problems" found in tightly inbred lines are not the result of small mutations magnified by generation after generation of the same genetic material being used to generate thousands of dogs, each of those dogs with new mutations. If a trait can be "set" by inbreeding why can't a disease be "set" by inbreeding. I know your going to tell me that the vet said your dogs are healthy, but I'll be he didn't say their DNA was healthy.