science_doc

Just for the sake of clarification: I am a FEMALE Ph.D. student (not all scientists are male) who works with laboratory animals on a regular basis for medical research, so for those of you who insinutated that I don't know what I'm talking about in medical animal research you are wrong. For example, I have worked at a toxicology lab that did CONTROLLED(not lots of variable to invalidate the research) metabolic studies. The animals were confined to small cages during the test (allowing controlled measure of oxygen intake, carbon dioxide exhalation, and waste elimination), that was my experience at a medical testing facility. I don't know how other companies do the test, but I do know what's considered acceptable for peer reviewed scientific literature. I would also bet that those of you who object to the Iams testing would strongly object to lots of medical testing as well. The results are often not pleasent to deal with. However, I don't know any other way to progress? I freely admitted at the start of this debate that I did not read anything published by PETA or anyone else about the Iams corporation. I am likely overly sensitive about this topic since people frequently accuse researchers like me of being insensitive "animal torturing barbarians". For me nothing could be further from the truth. I have spoken face to face with lots of animal rights activists and found them grossly uniformed, so forgive me if I'm a bit touchy on this subject. I have also found that people are easily fooled by most companies, Iams is no exception, so forgive me if I doubt other companies, they ALL use spin and 1/2 truths to sell their product. I think boycotting companies is a fine way to get them to change their practice, but in truth I think it's all spin. Since Iams has admitted wrong doing, there is in fact no point in continuing this debate, THEY were wrong. I do how ever stand by my position that overall animal testing is beneficial to both food and medical research. I'm not sure how I feel about other products, except that I know that alternative testing could be used to reduce the animal testing until the product appears relatively safe. TGD, as a side note I still think that you are not understanding valid versus invald reseach. I am glad you are well informed about dog food, I'm sure that I could learn lots from you. I have had bad experiences myself with other people on this site who claimed to be experts on things like genetics and then demonstrated they were completely uninformed. I also think that the vast mojority of people can be easily fooled by "scientific" looking research.......I have seen this with my own parents and friends. People in hospitals who are being kept in semi-sterile conditions because of immune supression are in fact able to be treat with anti-biotics or anti-viral agents because you are trying to keep them alive. How they were kept alive does not matter, so the methods don't matter. Often times introducing antibiotics into research studies add another level of variables. The bacteria and viruses can be introduced by the people who have to enter the animal rooms or just by the air. Those little germs find a way, even with super sterile precautions......so toys could become a major risk.

Each animal is selected for it's characteristics which make it ammenable for the study. for example, if your studying sleep, cats make excellent subjects since they sleep so much every day. Pigs have a digestive tract which is very similar to people, so they are good for intestinal work. I'm really not sure what dogs are used for, I have never worked with them in a laboratory setting. I do know that there are lots of beagles used for research I just don't know what they do with them. Some of the things people were describing sound like bone/wound healing work? Often testing is done first in rodents, because they are small and easy to handle and far less expensive than testing in bigger subjects like dogs and pigs. BTW primates make horrible study subjects......I am almost in agreement with a ban on all primate testing. They do not do well in cages at all.

Okay TDG I read what you had to say and I understand your position. I don't want to reply in detail to everything you said, cause I think we will never see totally eye to eye. I've had this deabte before and I just want to try and educate people on the truths about lab animal science without animal liberation groups negative propaganda. That being said I'm glad the public keeps an eye on us. Where you aware that every U.S. federally funded study involving animals goes through a review process that involves the approval of not only vetrinarians, but also one non-science member of the local community? I can't speak for every company out there, but I have worked in the private sector as well as goverenment funded labs and the vast majority do everything possible to make their animals as comfortable as possible. Kendalyn hit it right on the head. You cannot do any valid scientific study with too many variables. For example, people often suggest we should test drugs on prison inmates instead of lab animals. Well if you stop to think about that, the results would be uniterpretable. Say 6 of 10 of your prisoners get cancer when you give them the drug, okay the drug causes cancer? Well what if I told you that 5 of those 6 prisoners smoked and 3 shot heroin. Now what caused the cancer, the drug, the heroin, or the cigarettes? You seen how even a couple variables make the study uniterpretable? A metabloic study would absolutely need to monitor the animals very closely for some fairly long periods of time, so I'm not surprised the animals were in small enclosures during the study. I would be surprised if they continously housed them that way. This is why pictures taken by animal activist could be VERY misleading. As for bedding and toys not posing any harm, unfortuantely as far as I know no one makes autoclavable toys and bedding, the heat and intense pressure would destroy them. Without that type of cleaning treatment they would quickly become contaminated with bacteria and viruses and perhaps kill the poor animals. I do feel bad for the vast majority of lab animal enviroments and there is a group of scientists, myself included working on ways to change the current housing of all laboratory animals including rodents. As for P+G I believe they are breaking into the health care market as well as pet food, so some of the test you say were probably for human health products. I think that it's unfair to judge the work based on photographs taken by animal rights activists. If the government has busted them, I'm happy that the violations were caught. I'll never hesitate to pick up the phone and call in violations I see, I hope other scientists are the same way. My point about the dog food is that I think it's hipocritical to pick and choose different companies to boycott becuase they all have directly used or benefited from animal research. I believe that very few people realize the amount of research that goes into the products they use.

Without reading a detailed description of the study I am guessing as to why the scientists didn't want toys in the cages? Perhaps they were afraid of the toys introducing a variable that would invalidate the study. Complex studies of nutrition, behavior, and growth can be adversely affected by the introduction of too many variables. This could be something as simple as the idea that the beagles frequently used in these studies are born and raised in specific pathogen free conditions, meaning that they don't ever have exposure to common viruses and bacteria(they are bred to be lab animals). A toy rolling around in the bottom of a cage becomes a sink for these bacteria making all the dogs sick and invalidating the study and perhaps killing the dogs? Really to get valuable data from these types of study the experienc/history of each test subject is usually as similar as possible. This is why I can never understand who in the world buys dogs from animal shelters for experimentation.......I don't understand how they can validate the data with all those variable genetic backgrounds, environmental exposures, etc.

PETA and groups like them frequently lie about how animals are treated. By United States law the dogs must be give play time out side of their cages and if they don't the USDA would shut them down. These types of facilites are constantly inspected, again I know this from personal experience. I honestly didn't even bother to look at the links provided, because that type of propaganda on the internet is usually a waste of time........most of the time it turns out to be completely untrue or at best 1/2 true. Unfortunately the people who sneak into these facilites and "report" what is going on most likely don't even understand the basics of the experiment. One reason to cut a muscle and not stitch it up would be to test wound healing which is basically a study of how the immune system is doing. If you interfear too much with the natural healing, this would invalidate the study and then why bother doing it at all??????? The ability of the immune system to heal could be a direct reflection of the quality of a dogs/cats diet. We are trying to feed our pets the appropriate food, but without testing it's a total guess.

I think if we want to keep producing quality scientists in this country these types of advanced biology classes with dissections should always be an option. That being said, I think that everyone should be able to choose between a hands on experience and a virtual one. All the animals used in "teaching" experiments make me sad.....there are some things that computers can and can't do, but when ever it's practical I think that we should use a computer to teach. I can say that there is no substitute for really learning anatomy, but unless it's going your profession I'm not sure you need the hands on experience.

okay I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes..........Everyone on this forum wants the best food and vetrinary care for their pets, but how would you propose to discover these things without some experimentation? I would also like to point out that since P+G appears to publish their findings in scientific publications do you all think that all the other "no test" companies ignore the benefit of that research and don't read the article becuase they don't want to test on animals. NO, the answer to that is they don't want to spend the money to make the best food possible. Now for the other side of the coin....Where you aware that P+G sponsored(i.e. discovered, developed, and FUNDED) a major multi-center trial of an animal testing alternative to a barbaric test call the "Draize test". EVERY component of anything you have ever bought in your entire life has been used in this test. IT MUST BE TESTED. That way when your 3 year old child pours his shampoo in his eyes it won't burn them right out of his head. I'm sorry, but everything is tested this way. Products that claim they were not animal tested simpley use a mix of previously tested components and then they can say "our formula was never tested on animals", but I can gaurantee you that every single ingredient WAS TESTED. So back to the Driaze test, basically they pour things into rabbit eyes and score the dammage on a scale of established chemicals from caustic agents to water. P+G was working with Kimberly Clark on this test about 5 years ago and I know because I was one of the scientist hired to test the alternative. You'll be happy to know the alternative used cultured cells rather than live animals. These types of test are being developed all the time, but we can't make the jump overnight as much as we would all like to. Just so you know the costs of animal testing are absoultely astronomical so I can assure you that no one is doing these tests for fun their probably just trying to find the best food for your pets. As always I am more than willing to discuss this subject, but please be kind...........

HF, I was thinking about you last night, no really, I was. I have been wanting to write a thank you note of behalf of my dog from the shelter for a long time. I have to say that honestly I was on the fence if I was in the right place in my life to adopt a dog. You replied in just the right way to make me positive it was the right decision(I had already spent a great deal of time looking and thinking and looking and thinking). Now that little dog is just the happiest thing on earth. Everyone who meets her asks if she is a puppy because she is so smiley and outgoing and happy :lol: Now were doing our second obedience class together and I am getting more actively involved in dog rescue everyday, despite the fact that I was already a busy person. Bottom line is even though your feeling blue about what's going on around you right now, your work and knowledge is helping dogs and people you never even imagined. I hope that this post isn't too sappy :oops: but everything I said is the truth. I'll keep you and yours in my thoughts. BTW I have to thank everyone for their grooming advice on the other thread. I figured out the "stink" on Hailey. I'm embarrassed to say I'm pretty sure that I wasn't quite rinsing all the soap out of her fur. I negleted to mention that about the time she got stinky she started scratching pretty often too. Last time I washed her I rinsed 2 extra times and so far so good, so thanks so much.

Genetically speaking purebred dogs have a higher chance of producing diseased offspring because the dog and the bitch can be genetically nearly identical. Especially when breeders practice inbreeding. This is why you know exactly which diesease "pop" up in specific breeds, because the majority of the gene pool tends to be a carrier for the same genetic diseases. Now I have heard the argument that "my" lines are clean and all "my" dogs are healthy, but just wait, keep inbreeding. Eventually all the scientific evidence I have ever seen suggests that you are playing with fire. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The dog population is ripe for a major comuninicable disease outbreak. The immune system relies HEAVILY on genetic variability for the survival of any given population to a diesease outbreak. As the canine gene pools become smaller and smaller, the chance of all members of the pool being susceptable to a viral or bacterial diease increases EVERY inbred generation. This could lead to a disaster if a new canine pathogen comes along. [color=red]Disclaimer - I am not saying that ALL purebred dogs are bad or unhealthly, or that all dog breeders are bad. I base my ideas about dog breeding mostly from people on this site and things I read on the web. I'm just worried about the future of the canine species.[/color]

This "friend" of mine seems less interested in helping her dog this week :evil: I am really p***ed off! I DO NOT understand people at all! She comes running to find me with this terrible problem, then a couple weeks later she dosen't seem to care :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: Thanks for replying I think this information is usefully anyway :oops:

I would also tend to side with most of Cassie's views, but of course that won't make anyone go :o

:o :o :o :o Cassie, your post about rinsing under the ears made me realize something about the way I bathe Hailey :oops: I don't really "shampoo" and rinse her head. I have alwyas been worried about getting soap/water in her ears and eyes. So I just usually get a wash cloth wet, put some soap on it, "wipe" her head, then rinse off the wash cloth and repeat the "wiping". I wonder if her head gets smelly because i'm not really cleaning the fur there???? All my book learning is definately deleting some common sense, LOL!

Thanks so much for all the suggestions :P Hailey sure appreciates all the help. I check/clean her ears lots and I do look in her mouth at her teeth, don't think I see anything unusual going on. I do have problems getting her to chew on stuff for some reason she just isn't into chewing. I have tried lots of different things, but so far, nothing but greenies. When I buy her rawhides, she just licks them and then forgets them. I bought her the cow bones with the marrow still inside. She eats all the marrow and forgets about the bone. So based on all this I do worry about her teeth, but the vet said they look pretty good at her last check up. All that being said, I'm pretty sure what come from her head is just "doggie" odor. I have read that hound dogs tend to have more odor than other breeds? I have no idea if that's true, but when people see Hailey, they often ask if she is a beagle or hound mixed with a husky. I am just going to buy the Dremmel. If that doesn't work I'm going to go buy larger/sharper clippers.......I think the idea that I'm pinching the nail a bit before I clip is right on the money......silly me I never thought that might not feel to good :cry: I think trying the massage technique will be fun for me and relaxing for Hailey so that sounds good too! again, thanks so much to everyone!

HF, THANKS for the :o I am usually the biggest skeptic in the world about people products, I never thought that carefully about dog shampoo being exactly the same as people shampoo, but I should have known that :oops: So far Hailey's skin and coat seem to be doing really well with the frequency of washes and the shampoo I picked for its nice "clean" sent :oops: I guess I'll stick with that until I see any type of problem with her skin and hair. People are always asking me if she is a puppy, and how wonderfully soft and shiny her fur is, so I guess I have been doing something right! Thanks much for the tip about rinsing carefully, funny you should mention that (in the other thread), but when I washed her last Tuesday, I paid extra special attention to the rinse. I know that soap can make a GREAT growing ground for bacteria once it gets dry and crusty on skin and I was wondering if that is where the doggy odor comes from with Hailey? Well see in the next couple of weeks if the rinse was the problem.

Cleo, Sorry to hear about your loss btw. I understand how hard it is to loose a beloved pet. My sister just lost a cat she had for 16 years, terrible to go through. I'm sure your family will give a wonderful forever home to another dog who needs a home. I know what your saying about shelters, I plan on having about 4 more dogs once I get a house (about 4 more cats too, LOL).

cleo, While there are quite a few people who believe that dog breeds could use a bit of outbreeding to improve the frequency of genetic disease in some breeds (ANYONE here will tell you I am one of those people btw), there is no reason to believe that a single cross between 2 unhealthy dog lines will lead to healthy offspring. The types of disease that are prevalent as genetic disease were "bred" (please regulars no offense intended here I am not talking about ALL pure bred dogs, just poorly bred lines) into certain breeds of dogs over generations and genereations of careful breeding will be required to undo the dammage. PLEASE listen to everyone here and find a reputable breeder. Unfortunately the types of people who are likely to be making "designer" dogs are likely to be the types of people trying to breed for money's sake. These types of people don't care about the dogs they breed or the dogs they sell. I know that when you came here you never imagined these types of responses, but these people care more about dogs than you can imagine. Really check it out, you will be SHOCKED to know how many dogs are euthanized every year, I know that I sure was!

Another dumb question, but what makes a good shampoo? Are there any brands to avoid? I have heard bad things about some Hartz products so I have been avoiding that brand. There certainly are many to choose from at the pet stores here. Hailey nails are 100% black, no hope of seeing the quick. In addition, people have told me to look for where the nail sort of opens up, if that makes sense. Her nails are so broad, flat, and thick that they "open" up right at the end where they make contact with the ground. The only clipper I have ever used is the garden shears type, too chicken to use the guillotine type. I have been thinking about buying a Dremel like tool......I'm just not sure she will sit still for that either, but I think I'm going to try anyway.

I have some really basic questions about dog grooming. We have a Dog-o-mat here where I live, this is just a do it yourself dog wash. I like it mostly because it keeps the mess out of my tiny apartment. They have tubs and a drying room, lots of cool brushes, etc. pretty neat idea! I hope you guys don't mind me asking, but I like cleaning up Hailey myself, just more time for us to bond. #1 - How often is too often to bathe a dog? I find that Hailey get's a bit smelly after 2 weeks, but this seems a bit frequent for washes. I don't understand why, but most of the odor seems to come from her head? I have been trying the "no water" disposable dog towel things they sell in pet stores and that helps. #2 - Hailey HATES the blow drying part, but the shop only provides 2 towels, so she is pretty wet following the bath. This was no big deal in the summer, but in the winter I have had to sort of just work with her to dry her off. She absolutely under no circumstances will allow me to dry her feet. She also howls like the devil when I trim her nails, so much so that one person has to feed treats while the other rapidly tries like heck to trim her nails. I was wondering how common this is with dogs? I know that many cats HATE people touching their feet. I didn't own her as a puppy so I don't know her history, but I do know that the shape of her nails bugs me. Instead of comming to points, they are very flat and wide at the bottom and so this makes them tough to clip. To make matters worse they are black! So at nail clipping time I am way cautious about taking off too much and getting the quick. Anyway I was wondering if dog nails are a wide variety of shapes or if her nails were poorly trimmed or worse not trimmed at all leading to this funky shape.

I have a friend who needs to get a dog from Oregon to Michigan. I was wondering if anyone has opinion's on shipping dogs by plane? My friend has found a company, Animal shippers or something like that?, that will send the dog by plane and gaurentees to take care of the dog in the event of a cencelled flight, etc. I was wondering about trains too, that seems to me to be a bit less stressful, but then who lets the dog out to go potty? I was hoping for suggestions, personal experience, comments, anything to help us out. This dog belonged to my friend when she was younger and now mom and dad no longer have the time or the means to care for her. She is 9 and we really want to get her here to Michigan where she can have a good home living with someone she knows.

I think that when someone gives up a pet with a reason like "I'm moving" they are just using that as an excuse to dump an animal. I can't imagine someone loving and caring for a pet then just deciding to move somewhere without that pet. It just makes no sense. I think that unfortuantely allergies are often used as an excuse too, however I do know that in some cases there really is an allergic family member. When we were talking to rescues about our cat killer dog Abbie, the people were always shocked that I was asking for help in finding a way to keep my dog, they didn't understand, becuase they were so used to people telling them they wanted their dog gone today, no more chances, done, over! There is a good chance my partner and I are going to move to Europe for our postdoctoral training and we have already decided the cats and the dog go with us no matter how long and expensive the process to get them there!

Thanks for sharing guys, your stories give me hope. Hailey gets better all the time, but she has got so much wandering in her soul, :lol: When I took her to the private dog club area, I took her on a long line and kept her on, even thought I felt like a dope. I'm sure people were whispering, what a goof, won't even let her dog free inside a fence. But, I learned some interesting things. Hailey is great at ignoring me when she is doing something fun like chasing moles in the snow or sniffing deer tracks. So I guess I haven't worked with her enough yet. I think that she would be alright and come summer when the fence is a little taller (basically after the snow melts, :lol: ) I might be able to trust her off lead. I put her inside one of the chutes by the gate (holding her line tightly) and went on the other side and then watched. She whined and whimpered, but she didn't try to dig or jump the fence. I know she grew up with a fenced in yard, so I'm hoping she will recognize the boundry......but for now we are going to work on recall, a bit everyday and just keep trying to get better. The next obdience class we are taking is focused on off lead control of your dog so that should help us too.

HMMMMMM I have adopted 2 older shelter dogs and they are both great social dogs who just needed a bit of love and training, does that cancel out your 3 dog example?

I was wondering about the recall skills of everyone's dogs. In addition, I was hoping you would be willing to share your techniques for teaching and testing recall. I am trying to find the best methods to work with my little door dasher. Thanks in advance for sharing :P

1. About how many times do you take your dog/dogs out in a day? B. 3-4 times 2. About how long are you out with your dogs in a day? D. between 90 and 120 minutes 3. What do you do to give your dog mental excersise (?? I have no idea what to call it... I guess the options explain it.) you can choose several ones. B. Train basic obedience (Come when called, heel, sit, lie down, etc.) I'm hoping some day to perhaps find some mixed breed competitions to get involved with. 4. What do you think of the dog "hobby" or whatever it can be called? B. Dogs are one of my many hobbies Sad to say, but science is my life...........that's the life of a Ph.D. student :roll:

DANG, that last post was me, I keep forgeting to check if I am still logged in, please forgive my poor manners!