Horsefeathers!

*Ahem*cough*cough* Ssssshhhhhhhh.... you know... that whole "battle of wits with unarmed opponents" thing. No need to even let this get started. This is obviously a prank. Let's just recognize it as such and move on. Please? :-?

[quote name='Mei-Mei']Long research has revealed that the ancestry of the Boerboel can be traced as far back as the time of Herodotus and to Tibet, Assiria and Babylon.[/quote] So (ignorant question here, I know) would this make Boerboele related to Tibetan Mastiffs, I wonder? I'm actually fascinated by this because I honestly had never heard of this breed before this forum. And Avalonia... though I can see exactly by your explanation how to pronounce it, I still can't make my mouth do it. I was trying to tell my husband about this breed and couldn't spit it out. Grrrrrr this southern accent. :x

I am certainly no Akita expert, but I will say that I've never met one that wasn't dog aggressive. An acquaintance of mine recently put down her 10 year old female (she still has a male) because of aggression. This dog had been exposed to every possible social situation, but she just became increasingly untrustworthy and too much of a liability. She was almost impossible to contain, so... Anyway, the other Akitas I've been exposed to are also people aggressive. I know nothing about the breed, so I'm not stating that it is a breed trait. Just that I've seen it in too many of them. There aren't many around here, so it could be just bad breeding in the area (though I don't know of any breeders locally, so it leads me to believe they were imported from elsewhere). However, it's much too big a dog to go around with a chip on it's shoulder. One Akita in our rural area has actually been banished from the city limits because it attacked a cop (not the breed... just that dog). My thinking is that one should be an "Akita person" to fully appreciate one and rear it properly. I don't think it's a dog for just everyone. As much as I hate to sound discriminatory, based on my own personal observations of Akitas locally, I do not trust them. There are only two breeds of dogs I refuse to work with. Akitas are one of them. It's not to say I think they should be banned (I'm not into the whole breed banning thing), but I simply do not trust them. If you are planning to get one, at least become acquainted with someone who is educated in Akitas who is willing to work with you in "reading" them and training them. I am sure Akitas can be wonderful dogs for people who are skilled in handling them. Just not for the everyday common pet owner.

Hmmm... I see you are in NC. I'll see if I can find some kind of breed rescue that might be close to you if you're interested. How far would you be willing to drive? Do you absolutely want a puppy, or would you consider an adult? If you are wanting a really young puppy, I think it might be good to consider seeing if there are any breed clubs near you and they would probably be better to steer you in the right direction. I was just pointing out that sometimes they do end up in shelters and you just might get lucky. I'm in a really rural area and I've been surprised so many times to find beautiful (once cleaned up) purebred dogs there. Anyway, it was just a consideration. I'll see what I can find in NC. :D

I have a question, too, and it's probably a really STOOPIT one. What I want to know is the proper pronunciation of "Boerboel." Also, I've seen it spelled in different places as "Boerboel" and "Boerboele." Which is correct? I'm more interested in how to say it. Is it pronounced just as it is read? I don't know which part of the word to add emphasis to. BOERboel... boerBOel... boerboEL...(keeping in mind that anything I say is going to be with a heavy Southern accent, so I'll screw it up, either way). This is the sort of thing that bugs me. If I'm going to read about them, I want to know how to pronounce it properly. :-? And they are really beautiful dogs, I'll say. Too much dog for me to want to handle (no, I'd rather be handling 6 ankle biters and a couple of medium sized dogs :-? ), but they are gorgeous.

I think cats try to live forever just to spite us. I already had four cats ranging in ages from 6 years old to 8 years old and most of them having some sort of health problems (asthma, chronic urinary tract problems, one has a deformed back end and heart murmur). I swear they only come here to live if they are sick! After all this I still took in a kitten a few months ago. He's about six months old now. About time to go have his doodads snipped off. LOL All these cats and I always say I'm not a cat person. :roll:

I ran across this and instantly thought of all the bully breed lovers here. It's an article concerning a policy change with American Airlines on shipping dogs. Oh, you're gonna love this... :-? BTW, I am NOT familiar with this news source, so you might want to dig a little further. It was just something that came my way by email. Check it out thoroughly before sending any hate mail to the airline. Subject: [ADOA NEWS] AMERICAN AIRLINES POLICY UPDATE 8/7/02......American Airlines has changed their policy regarding certain breeds of dogs. According to an American Airlines Cargo Service Advisory, "Effective Immediately, the following restrictions are in Place. American Airlines will no longer accept the following breeds of dogs: American Pit Bull Terrier American Staffor(d)shire Terrier Bull Terrier Doberman Pinscher Rottweiler Puppies of these breeds between 8 & 12 weeks of age may be accepted. The breed and age of the dog must be indicated on the health certificate. Crossbreeds containing one of the above breeds, when indicated on the health certificate are also p rohibited." It is suggested the we need to complain now, before we actually get turned down when you take a dog in to be shipped. We recommend that all members, non-members and clubs write letters to American Airlines indicating that this action is discriminatory and wrong. It should be pointed out that any individual dog of any breed can be vicious and that it is inappropriate to point out specific breeds when the vast majority of the dogs of these breeds are perfectly fine. Information on where to send complaints: The Chief Executive Officer of American Airlines: Donn Carty, P.O. Box 619616, Mail Drop 5623, DFW, Tx 75261 The Customer Relations for American Airlines can be contacted in 3ways: Telephone: 817-967-2000, Email from their website: [url]www.americanair.com[/url] , Snail mail: AA Inc., P.O. Box 619612, Mail Drop 2400, DFW, Tx 75261

Nah... it just proves cats are the exception to any rules :P . Remember... we cook our meat, too. :wink: I have five cats, btw. Want one? :-?

Smooshie, I would go ahead and make that switch to OMH Wellness (or 3 Dog Bakery, or Solid Gold, or something similar). I was once considering Nutro as an alternative to the Wellness I am feeding only because it is so much more widely available (I have to order the Wellness and I can buy the Nutro just about anywhere). Imagine how disappointed I was to find that Nutro is also on the list of foods found to contain pentobarbital (the drug used to euthanize animals). :(

Ah, but cats are much different. Feline nutrition is very tricky. The more I'm learning about it, the more confusing it gets, but their protein requirements are nowhere near the same as for canines. If this is the ONLY evidence, I still can't buy that cooking ruins nutritional content... at least not cooking at the temperatures that would be found in a home environment (extruded food cooked under extreme temperatures would be vastly different). I've heard of far less (no) ill effects feeding cooked meat to [b][u]dogs[/u][/b] than raw. Same with people... if cooking ruined nutritional value, we'd all be starving to death. It's just not a valid argument to compare cats and dogs, so it still doesn't "prove" anything. It was interesting to say the least, but I still don't see where it would have any bearing on canine nutrition. Cats' needs/systems are WAY different than dogs'. Cats are true carnivores (despite the occasional nibbling of such things as catnip and houseplants). Dogs are not. I know that's the BARF argument... that dogs are truly carnivorous, but....

Oh, then you really do need to read some of that pano stuff. It sounds really similar. If nothing else is obvious (xrays and such), it's worth a shot to check out. After this query, I began reading a bit on those sites I showed you. It's very interesting.

That was me... :oops:

Giz, I have heard of "growing pains" in dogs. That's about all I can tell you about it... that I've heard of it. I did a quick search and came up with some sites concerning pano (growing pains) in dogs. Maybe you can read some of it and see if any of it makes sense. Good luck with Gizmo. [url]http://www.inkabijou.co.uk/pano.htm[/url] [url]http://www.vetinfo.com/dencyclopedia/depano.html[/url] [url]http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/lpano.htm[/url] If you type "panosteitis" into a search engine, you should get lots of links and plenty of reading.

Did they do a skin scrape, or say what was wrong with Milo? What did they give you to put on him?

Well, now, let's see.... it would depend on what you mean by bad skin. Any number of things can cause skin problems. Allergies, fleas, diet, mange, thyroid problems, etc. I would think you'd need a vet's exam to find out exactly what's going on with your dog's skin since there are so many possibilities. I have a bully/boxer mix that gets skin infections about once or twice a year, usually during the warmer weather. The vet believes it is just basically seasonal allergies. For her, it's as simple as giving her something for the itching and a round of antibiotics to clear the infection... no big deal, really. I have another dog who has major allergies, had to have lots of testing done, changed diet, allergy shots, the whole works. Now THAT was a pain. Another of my dogs had demodectic mange when we adopted him and that is treated another way entirely. Still, another dog of mine has Cushing's disease and has a different kind of skin problem. Some diets promote skin problems, as well. Anyway, it just depends on what the "bad skin" really is. Good luck with Milo and I hope it's only something minor that can be easily treated.

I'm just curious... what part of rural Georgia are you in? We may be neighbors. We recently placed a Shar Pei rescue dog. We had him forever (it seemed) and had a hard time placing him and he was only $60 (and that was actually to cover the costs of neutering, vacs, mange treatment, etc.) and a great dog with awesome temperament for a Shar Pei (the very few we see around here tend to be very dog aggressive and/or fear biters). People around here (at least in my part of GA) aren't so interested in having them except the people who want something just because it's different, but know nothing about the breed, but then those are not the types of homes you would be looking for. Anyway, more than anything, I was just curious about which part of GA you were in. I'm close to the FL line, near Tallahassee.

Ah... Ol' Roy. Just so you know... Ol' Roy ranked highest on the list of foods containing pentobarbital. That's the drug used to euthanize animals.

I'm chock full of bright ideas, but no one would dare take them seriously. It's really ridiculous stuff, but it did work once to get some irritating neighbors to back off.... Let's see if someone can come up with anything sensible (I've never been accused of going about things with a lot of common sense). If not, as a last ditch effort, I'll share what worked for me.

Good grief, you're right! Kinda makes you wonder.... I tried browsing around that site just because I'm nosy that way, but it kept causing my computer to freeze up, so I had to ditch it. Still can't help but wonder why on earth these dogs are all dying so young.

I feed OMH Wellness supplemented with a natural cooked diet. :D

Oh, and I can tell you exactly what the dedicated BARFers will say. I presented similar information to some of the lists when my girl got sick... just to ask questions and see if I could get sensible answers. Basically, all I got were insults and attacks. When presented with anything that might even remotely conflict with their beliefs, they simply became defensive and the only thing I got out of it was that anyone who's ever had problems obviously did it wrong. That's exactly what they say. It really frustrates me that people get their mind so set on one thing that they refuse to look further. I'm always willing to expand my mind and willing to be wrong in the effort to learn more, so it's so beyond me that others want to be right no matter what instead of learning. At least you are asking questions. That's good. It means you are willing to learn and make up your own mind based on information you gather from ALL sides. Sadly, many are not. They just want to be right.

Aroura, you can cook these with the bones. I'm not saying to give them cooked bones. You just remove the bones when they're done (or prior, if that's easier). I'm talking about just cooking the meat and removing the bones entirely. Also, I'm not totally anti-bone (here comes another exception to a rule just to make it even more confusing)... I do buy those big ol' butcher soup bones that my guys can't splinter and they gnaw on those and work the marrow out. I do feel that's beneficial. I'm just strongly opposed to things like chicken bones that can splinter, or any small bone. Whew... so glad this has remained civil. I try to tread lightly, but a lot of people perceive me as being merely argumentative. Thanks for not taking anything as a personal attack. I may disagree with views, but I try hard to be respectful even if I disagree. A lot of people wold be calling me ugly names by now! :roll:

Exactly, Guest! As far as I've been able to find out, wolves do not live that long in the wild and are not necessarily that healthy. From what I understand, the reason that you don't usually see sickly acting or injured wolves in the wild is because it's a virtual death sentence.... not because it doesn't happen. Weak/sick animals are killed off. I just believe that comparing wolves in the wild to domestic dogs is like comparing apples to oranges. As far as cooking destroying essential nutrients... if this were true, we'd ALL starve to death since we almost always cook our food. Remember, not too long ago, man ate raw meat, but I don't see many people advocating a raw diet for people using the logic that it's what our ancestors ate. By the way, if anyone is still with me at this point, I also have information that supports the notion that 80% red meat in a dog's diet IS very harmful. Just in case you think I'm making this stuff up! :P LOL Aroura, you asked..... :wink:

Ah, here is some info and LOTS of reading. A lot of this says basically what I have been saying.... that not every dog will get sick/injured, but that it's possible and it also goes into quite an interesting discussion regarding how wolves ate and comparing that to domesticated dogs. Also, it states that there is NO nutritional benefit of feeding raw vs. cooked.... meat is meat, but cooked meat is safer. Cooking does not destroy any nutrients. It also addresses the issue of dogs being pumped with TOO much protein. I don't find any of this to be an anti-BARF site, per se, as much as the BARF sites are so pro. It's just a lot of good, useful info and, of course, much of it is a matter of opinion just as is a lot of the BARF stuff. You can view xrays of dogs who have had RAW bones lodged in their tracts and mouths at [url]http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/bones.html[/url] . It happens. Maybe not frequently, I don't know, but it happens. This has a lot of discussion on wolves in the wild vs. domestic dogs. [url]http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/wolfexrep.html[/url] This is a question and answer page that has a lot of raw diet questions. If you read through all of it, some people make some very strong arguments for raw diets. I'm with Dr. Mike Richards on this one... at the bottom of the page he asks, "Why not just cook the meat in the diet you plan to use?" [url]http://www.vetinfo.com/drawmeat.html[/url] A lot of this stuff makes sense to me. I just can't buy the "all or nothing" thing, ya know? It makes sense to think that wolves eating raw carcasses are not as similar to feeding domestic dogs store bought meat as many people would have me believe. Wolves eat bones coated with fur and flesh which many scientific types believe helps the bones pass through. I know of no domestic dogs who have fur and flesh included in their raw diets. Also, it's impossible to study wolves in the wild to know that they, in fact, do not suffer from bone fragments lodging in their tracts, or from bacterial/parasitic illnesses. It's entirely possible that it happens. How would we know it doesn't? Wolves in the wild do not have the same life span as a domestic dog. "Wolves habitually eat whole carcasses, including large and small bones, leaving nothing but scraps of hair. There are certainly documented cases of wolves choking on bones or starving after bones becomes stuck in the mouth or throat." *Richard Morley for The Wolf Society of Great Britain Anyway, please remember that I'm not comparing a natural diet to commercial kibble. I'm all for a natural diet. I just see no reason NOT to cook the meat if it eliminates what might even be considered a small risk (though I personally don't believe it's such a small risk). I just keep pointing out that raw is not without risk. I do understand that so many dogs benefit from it, but I just feel that anyone contemplating it for the first time should be aware of the involved risk and not count on JUST raw sites/books/advocates as their sole source of info because of the lack of objectivity. It's very misleading for these authors to tell people that the only risk involved is if you do it wrong. That's simply not true and many many other people besides me read the books, joined the sites and forums and followed it to the letter and had problems. Oh, and since you asked... my dog had salmonella illness (as per my vet and lengthy hospitalization/lab work/testing/whatever all it is that they do). She was a VERY sick little girl and all meat and other ingredients had been handled EXACTLY as instructed. I've long since ditched my books and everything associated with it as I was so upset. I couldn't even begin to tell you which all books I read.... a friend who was a major advocate ordered a lot of the stuff for me from Amazon and had it shipped to me and that along with joining the sites and pro-raw discussion forums was enough to convince me. I didn't even bother doing any objective searching because it [u]sounded[/u] so good (that whole "wolves in the wild" argument was enough for me) and it never crossed my mind that "they" could be wrong. I considered myself well researched, well read, had done my homework and all that. When my gal got sick and I began sharing that in case others had problems, I was instantly attacked (for lack of a better word, but "attacked" fits) because I was obviously such a crackpot and did it alllll wrong and blah blah blah. However, many people on these same lists contacted me via email privately to tell me they'd had similar problems. It wasn't just me. It just isn't openly discussed amongst many of the raw sites for fear of such attacks (who ARE these people, anyway?). Anyway, I digress...

Ah, yes, I have tons of links and info on what's really in commercial dog foods and even lots of info on government (U.S.) requirements regarding labeling and what is allowed and not allowed and what the manufacturers don't have to tell (if you're interested in that, too), but I'm not really trying to compare most average commercial foods to the raw diets. It's kind of like comparing apples to oranges. I guess what I was talking about was a raw diet vs. cooked/[u]quality[/u] commercial diet. Believe me, I am well aware of what is being put into most commercial foods. Again, my problem is with the idea that raw is TOTALLY safe. I have to agree with the guest who said that there are too many things to consider from individual dog to individual dog to believe that one diet is best across the board. Like I harp on constantly (I know), I'm just saying that I know that many many dogs have seen benefit from a raw diet. I just speak up when I see someone say that it's 100% risk free and safe as long as you buy the books and follow them. I know for myself that it's not always the case. Anyway, my greatest source of info (since you asked :wink: ) is a fellow named Jon Frey who totally advocates a natural [b][u]cooked[/u][/b] diet and has done extensive research into canine nutrition. Remember, I was once a BARFer and stood behind that as well and I like to think I'm as objective as anyone could be and willing to admit I'm wrong and learn more. If I thought for a minute that Jfrey was yanking my chain, I'd be the first to call him on it. The studies and links I've read have mostly been presented to me by him (one thing that gives him such credibility with me is that he is willing to direct me to [u]independent[/u] studies. He writes books, also ["Throw The Dog A Mirepoix"], which is all the more cause for me to be cynical, but he's gained my trust as much as it's possible to gain it... of course, I continue to learn and study on my own). I will contact him again and see if he can resend me some of the studies I've been presented with. Independent studies, not something slanted to present one point of view. Also, keep in mind that I wouldn't be so concerned if it weren't for the fact that MY own dog got gravely ill on the BARF diet despite my careful attention to detail and I've talked to many others with similar experiences. That is personal experience, but, unfortunately, not concrete *proof* to anyone else. Please keep in mind that I'm NOT saying BARF doesn't work for some, or even most, dogs. I just have a problem telling people it's 100% safe for ALL dogs. That's when I squeak up. :roll: Still not trying to be argumentative and I certainly see your point of view. I once felt as you do about BARF, so I know the enthusiasm. We each just want to do what is best for our own dogs and all we can do is the best we can do with what we each feel is right. :D