Horsefeathers!

I didn't read all the way through this and I'm not sure I want to go back several pages, but someone tell me how on earth a conversation evolves from talking about pizzles (aren't those bull peckers?) to wiping your butt on a wall (if one had to go through THAT much effort, might as well scoot across the carpet). Did someone delete a post somewhere? :-?

Lol, Sasha, I consider it a badge of honor! I have been called Satan's Spawn, but I think I like Devil's Advocate better.:D Yes, StarGaze, I do like Best Shot. The stuff is great. I don't use it for everyday use (I like ReFurbish and Coat Handler 'cos you can leave some of it in instead of having to rinse it all out), but it is indeed wonderful for those packed coats. These are the coats I am talking about... not the absolutely nasty, YUCKY things with dredlocks, maggots and old rusty fish hooks embedded in them (been there, done that, too :-? ) which I'm hoping the original poster doesn't have a problem with. I was speaking more of a packed undercoat. It is indeed possible to get them sparkling clean through even packed undercoats with a recirculating washer, but even a home groomer can rig up a power washer very cheaply that will blow through ANYTHING. Anything that's worse than that (packed undercoat) gets stripped in my little slice of groomer heaven, anyway. I have reached the point that I absolutely and adamantly refuse to put my equipment on a filthy, pelted, gritty, grimy coat (that becomes a vet tech shavedown... let them tear up THEIR equipment) and I refuse to put a dog through a torturous dematting session when the owners won't maintain it. Of course, now I digress. :oops: Great to see another groomer type on board. I, too, have been washing dog butts and shaving weiners for a lifetime! Oh, what a glamorous job... :D HF, Devil's Advocate Extraordinaire :lying:

Actually *ahem*cough* a lot of groomers now do not try to demat a dirty coat. I, too, was taught that you did ALL brushing/prep work before the bath. Uh uh... not anymore. Almost everything I do goes straight into the tub first. Especially double coated breeds like Chows (if I groomed Chows... I don't, but we're talking about coat type here). A clean coat is MUCH easier to work on (assuming we aren't talking about something that is pelted to the bone... only one alternative there). Anyhoo, I just thought I'd offer a different perspective. Here's an article written by Barbara Bird (a well respected name in grooming) about dematting tips and techniques >> [url]http://w3.gorge.net/dynmyte/bbird/dematting.html[/url] . Trust me on this... dematting (if it MUST be done) and brushing out is best done on a clean, well conditioned coat. :) Just one of those "to each his own" things and I used to think people were crazy, talking about plopping matted dogs right into the tub. I'll be doggoned if they weren't right.

Stretching and drying peckers is an artform?! In the South?! I'm obviously in the wrong part of the South. I wonder if there's a museum somewhere...:-?

[quote name='Hobbit']:o Are live chickens and peach preserves involved?[/quote] No, no, no! You are thinking of my Umbatoo War Dance again! :o

Nooooooooo... I never [u]said[/u] that. Y'all go right ahead. I'll be on the sidelines watching. :)

Ruh roh... methinks it best if I just sit on the sidelines and watch this one go by. I think it's great that so many people want to help and I applaud the cause. Good luck to those of you who are trying to come up with something viable.

Oh... I digress. :-? Corgi, I don't know of a particular organization to contact, but we may have to start small (as Deepsea mentioned) and work it from there. A real grass roots campaign and just let it grow.

Deepsea, I don't know that the TRUTH ads were part of the settlement, per se, but I do believe that was part of what the powers that be decided to do with those funds. Since I live so close to Tallahassee, that was the big talk at the time when all of this tobacco settlement stuff was going down. Of course, now that I'm curious and not entirely positive, I'll add this to my list of things to check out. I know Phillip Morris has done some educational "appeasement" campaigns, but I didn't think they funded any of the TRUTH ads directly. As sick as I have been of seeing them (when it's the ONLY commercial shown for several hours at a time and they show the same one at every break), I wish one would come on now where I could see. I have a hard time thinking PM would directly and voluntarily fund TRUTH despite their other ads I've seen. I really should pay more attention to my local news when it's happening. :-?

If I remember correctly, I think the money for the TRUTH ads regarding tobacco came from the mega money settlements that FL got from the tobacco industry. Soooooo that explains that. I think? Anyhoo, I am all for public education and there is nothing in the world I would love more than to see an in-your-face ad campaign regarding animal welfare, pet store/mill puppies, spaying/neutering, etc. However (and I know I'm jumping into the hot seat here), I am adamantly opposed to climbing into bed with PETA for ANY reason. Theirs is a much higher goal and to rationalize getting into cahoots with them by saying that it might benefit SOME animals is the same as to say that buying a pet store puppy saved that ONE puppy. Sure, but look at the much greater evil behind it. Without going into a long, drawn out debate about my hatred for PETA (can you tell), I will only say that I cannot justify (for myself) any collusion with them to benefit my genuine conern for animal welfare and therefore give them more ammunition for their animal [u]rights[/u] campaign. Holy balls, it goes against everything I believe in. I would love to see a public education campaign, but is there ANY way we can consider this and leave PETA out of it (not that they'd be interested)? :-? This isn't to knock any PETA members we have here. I believe there are many well intentioned *members." 'Nuff said about that.

[quote name='EBBY'] Lately I have been working with him extensively (about 4-5 hours a day). We were told to pretty much give him his first year of life off...and then start with training. This is pretty much what we have done. EBBY[/quote] Ok, I gotta say this first. I'm not a trainer and all that. Just a podunk pet owner. However... This is the first time I've ever seen where it was recommended to wait until a dog is at least a year old to begin training. It just seems odd. Especially a strong willed and typically stubborn breed. Anybody else ever heard of this? It just seems like a bad idea (from a podunk pet owner point of view, of course). I'm seriously not being sarcastic, or questioning your credibility. I genuinely wonder if waiting until any dog, but especially a breed notorious for being stubborn and strong willed, is a year old to begin training is such a good idea.

I lived in Hot Springs, Arkansas several years ago and, based on a personal experience (which had nothing to do with bestiality, of course), animal welfare was certainly not a high priority there. One would hope things would eventually change. :(

Keys, shoes and the corners of all my furniture. Oh yeah... and aloe vera plants. *groan* :x

Oh, Lordy! You went there! DUCK!! I mean, welcome. :roll: Errr... uhhh... will say this as delicately as I can, so that I don't offend anyone. Bought books, read sites, joined lists, followed to the extreme, dog got sick from salmonella. Basically, it's all I have TRIED to say from the beginning. I'd better offer a disclaimer. I am not a scientist. Don't try this at home. Some assemby required. Tax, tag and title not included. See store for details. Only at participating locations. FDIC insured. Batteries not included. For external use only; avoid contact with eyes. NOW maybe no one will become enraged for simply stating that MY dog got sick. :x

[img]http://www.groomers.org/discus/messages/91/12238.jpg[/img] [size=6]Sorry! I couldn't resist! I saw that today and it just cracked me up and this looked like the perfect place for an "intermission."[/size] [img]http://www.groomers.org/discus/messages/91/12241.gif[/img]

[quote name='Gordonmom']Horsefeathers, exactly what are you talking about. This is not research. There needs to be no scientific data. Go read a text book. Read the text book that Hobbit wrote. Go look it up on the internet.[/quote] Now you are not even making sense. First you are [u][b]against[/u][/b] Hobbitt "regurgitating" "research" and now you point to it as having some credibility. Which is it? You know what? Nevermind. I know this game. Basically, if you can't baffle them with brilliance, befuddle them with bullcookies. Keep on. This is hardly worth the time. I, and several other people, have asked you repeatedly to back your claims and prove us wrong, but all you offer is sarcasm and dreck. You still never answered the simple yes or no question I posed. By the way, YOU are arguing on the same "dog message board" that you are whining about. Forget about it. You've proven your point.

Let's see what the score is... That would be TWO totally different individuals with absolutely no stake in this other than concern for our dogs' health, with scientific PROOF that salmonella/e. coli poisoning CAN happen to dogs (don't forget about that culture that was harped on... still haven't heard back about that) and ONE person saying that it CANNOT happen, with NO scientific data to back that up. Sound about right? I mean, you [b][u]are[/b][/u] saying it CAN NOT and DOES NOT happen, right?

Corgilady, what gd word? :o [size=2]Please forgive my abruptness. I sometimes have a short fuse, too.[/size] :oops:

[quote name='Gordonmom']And again, unless you do a culture, there is no way of knowing that the food born illness that your dog has was Salmonella.[/quote] Then you must have assumed there was no culture done (in my case). Next?

[quote name='Gordonmom']I never knew that just because you owned a dog that got sick that you knew everthing there was to know about the disease process. Your knowledge must be a wonderful thing.[/quote] Ya know... thanks for the smartassisms. I say my dog got sick. I won't feed BARF again because the CHANCE of it happening again is not worth it to me. Hey, you want to take that risk, go right ahead. Feed your dog all the roadkill, wild animal feces and such that you want. Maybe you can market that as a "new" diet. Makes me no difference. Yup, makes me a know-it-all, for sure, since I said *I* won't BARF again. I never knew you were so sanctimonious just like you never knew blah blah blah. Arrogance must be a wonderful thing as well. For such a seemingly intelligent person, I am having a hard time figuring out what part of "my experience" you are understanding. "My experience" means "my experience" as it happened to ME, in case that's hard to figure out. Rather than subtle sarcasm, I'll just put it right out there. Now I feel better. Please continue. If you have something to offer, do it. I don't mind learning new stuff... h*ll, it's what brought me to this to begin with, but jump off your high horse long enough to make sense instead of ridiculing anyone with opposing viewpoints.

Tsk tsk tsk... not really like me to be sarcastic. For that, I'll apologize. I do feel, right or wrong, that my integrity was attacked with the "tired of people trying to scare other people..." wisecrack. I have no hidden agenda.

[quote name='Gordonmom']I get very tired of people trying to scare other people with bacteria stories. Salmonella very rarely kills anyone.[b][i]It's ok to be sick from salmonella as long as we probably won't die?[/b][/i] And I don't know if dogs can get E. coli O:157 as people do, but that bacteria is not as common as the news would have you believe. We do not live in a sterile world.[/quote] I get very tired of defending my position that I, me me me, *I* know that *my* dog got sick. Don't think I wasn't scared, myself. I'm just a mere common pet owner. I'm not a brilliant scientist and make no pretenses to be anything but a podunk pet owner, so I'm not out there swabbing my dogs' mouths and whatever else it is that science minded folks are doing with their dogs. However, I CAN learn from experience and I am open minded enough to know what CAN happen. CAN as in POTENTIALLY. Geez, all I have been preaching is what CAN happen and what DID happen. If sharing [b][u]my[/b][/u] story is interpreted as an attempt to scare people, then you have obviously misread me. Next time, just tell me what you want to hear and I'll practice saying it like I mean it, so that way nobody will have to get so tired of hearing differing viewpoints. I stated above that I was merely sharing my own personal experience. You can take it the way you want to. My dog got sick [b][u]once[/b][/u] and that once was enough for me. It may not have ever happened again in a million years, but it's not worth it to me to risk it. I kinda like my little dog, ya know?

Pshaw, no problem, Newfie. You've earned the respect. :D

*sigh* In short (too late for that), I'm not disagreeing that there may be benefits to feeding BARF over [u][b]most[/u][/b] commercial diets. My belief is that the benefit is not worth the risk to [b][u]me[/b][/u].

JC, you just got a taste of what I got when I was on some of the BARF forums a year or so ago. All I did was question it once I'd had problems and I got hammered. No one was willing to listen to anything I had to say and I was ridiculed. Some of the avid (militant) BARFers absolutely refused to hear any evidence to the contrary of it being the best thing going for ALL dogs. I'm not calling anyone here a militant BARFer and that comment is directed at the people on the other forums I mentioned. Most people here are pretty cool, but can be kinda trigger happy if they think someone is just stirring up doo doo. I was just sitting back watching to see how this would unfold. Actually, I've been with you on this thing. It's great that it works so well for other people, but, like you, I do think there should be more focus on the fact that things CAN go wrong and it doesn't necessarily mean that the well intentioned BARFer did it wrong. There aren't too many ways to poke a raw chicken wing at a dog. Again, I am thoroughly impressed with Newfiemom's program. Unlike a lot of BARFers I'm aware of, she seems to recognize the need NOT to feed too much protein in relation to other things (beta carotenes, carbs) if I'm reading her right. IMO, too many people place entirely too much faith in the notion of dogs being "strictly" carnivorous. I think Newfiemom is right on with what I've seen of her views on nutrition. I don't even bother to post to threads on nutrition and commercial food much anymore because I know she has it covered and about the only thing I could do is stand in the amen corner and say amen. The only thing we disagree on is the need to leave meat raw vs. cooked and I think I read that even she avoids raw bones(?). Stick around. To be honest, I am so glad to meet someone else who is willing to question the validity of it instead of taking the BARF sites as gospel. To each his own, but I wouldn't dare try another of my dogs on it.