Horsefeathers!

Oh, wait! Someone WASN'T advertising something?! Maybe I didn't waste an hour. :drinking:

Oh, wait! Someone was advertising something?! So much for me and my soapbox. I just wasted a frickin' hour! :o

Oh well, why not... I've been in the hotseat before, so I may as well jump back into it. *sigh* I am one who did have problems with BARF. I followed instructions to the letter, bought the books, read the lists and was diligent in my "decontamination" (anyone wanting to put me on the spot and question this, please read back through similar discussions... I've outlined it before and I'm not going to argue a point... this is just my personal experience). My little allergy dog did wonderfully on it for a few months in that her scratching was reduced (not eliminated). However, she did become gravely ill. I was one who approached my vet about BARF and he, like many, was opposed to it. I do know that vets aren't the greatest nutrition experts out there, so I went ahead with the blessings of many BARFers and my "research." I did do my homework and made what I determined to be an informed decision, right or wrong. My dog became ill and hospitalized. My vet (and personal friend with no stake in deceiving me), doing whatever it is he did, said that my dog had salmonella poisoning. I questioned that then as I argued with him even still that dogs do not get it. I was sure I was right. However, I did some further digging past the BARF sites, looking for something objective. Something that was neither pro nor anti BARF. I found out that, despite many dogs doing so well on it, it is a reality that some dogs DO get sick and some DO get bones lodged in places they ought not. I found plenty of xray photos of dogs with bones lodged. RAW bones, even, and it's not as uncommon as many would like to believe. I have kind of avoided this thread only because I've said all this before and because I know I'm in a minority. What's so weird to me is that I found the avid BARFers to be so adamant. The same people who were once my biggest supporters became bitterly argumentative when I even suggested that perhaps it's not the best thing for ALL dogs. I was ridiculed and a basic outcast. I've never tried to change anyone's mind that has made an informed decision, but sometimes I do get kind of cross when I see so much advertising about BARF as being the perfect diet for ALL dogs and that ANY suggestion that it MIGHT be dangerous (or maybe we can at least agree that it's a calculated risk?) results in ridicule. I just like to see balanced info provided and, to me, strictly sticking to info provided on BARF sites is not objective. A point of irony... just this week, we had a dog come into the clinic with a bone lodged in his gut. It required surgery. This happens fairly often since so many dogs here in the rural South roam loose and get into garbage. What is surprising is that this person sent her husband home to get a BARF book (sorry, I don't know which one) and adamantly insisted that this was not supposed to happen. It was a RAW chicken wing and not just garbage as is usually the case. What was even more surprising was when my vet told me that this was the third client this year with the same problem from raw bones and a raw diet. I didn't even know and I work there (in grooming, not as a tech, so I'm not often aware of what goes on up front). I now feed Wellness supplemented with a COOKED diet. From all I've been able to learn, cooking at regular household oven temperatures absolutely does not destroy nutrients. The high temps that many commercial plants use in extrusion is what can destroy nutrients. My ideas on nutrition and dog foods are parallel with Newfiemom's. I have followed everything she has said and it is almost identical in my own beliefs/research regarding canine nutrition. The absolute only thing I do differently is cook the meat instead of leaving it raw. I'm not even going to get into my beliefs on canines and a high protein diet and the theory that canines are strictly carnivorous. Anyhoo, I just thought I'd toss that out there. I'm not selling anything and I am so glad that many dogs do great on BARF. I'd never attempt to change someone's mind if they've found something that works for them. I just get nervous when anyone adamantly insists that it is 100% perfectly safe and effective for ALL dogs. I just don't think there is any single magic bullet for EVERY dog.

[color=red][size=7]SMOOSHIE!!![/color][/size] :shocked!: :oops:

Maybe I have too many critters (8 dogs and 5 cats... yup, all in the house). No one seems to stress at all, anymore, when a new critter is introduced. It's to the point now where I can just basically pitch them all in there together and all that happens is an obligatory grumble, a couple of sniffs, "yup, that's a dog/cat, alright," and within half an hour, everyone is sleeping soundly. Dogs sleeping with cats, cats sleeping with dogs... they don't seem to know any better. Maybe I just have a house full of weirdos. :-?

[quote name='Smooshie'][quote name='Hobbit']Village photos are a little weird. If you post your pictures, they disappear --- if you are using Village Photos.[/quote] that is very true Hobbit.....they only give you a 5 MB daily bandwidth limit,and once you use it up they freeze the acct til the next day....does anyone know of any other good pic hosting sites?? I use webshots for my online album...but they're a little stingy with bandwidth too....[/quote] I use MSN Groups. There is no time limit for leaving your pictures up. You start your own "group" and put your pictures there. It also comes with your own personal message board and you can add pages and calendars and stuff, but I just use mine for putting up pictures and posting a few stories. I don't really maintain it except to edit photos once in a while. It's free, too.

[quote name='Hobbit'][quote name='Horsefeathers!']Housebreaking... such a simple thing... This has not been a problem for the first two weeks. He pees right in front of me and just smiles as if it's what I told him to do. Umbatoo War Dance (don't ask) in my back yard. I'm assuming that being kenneled his whole life has made him used to pottying where he has to live. [/quote] I think he pees in front of you because he isn't afraid of you and he's used to doing this in the kennel --- and he thinks he's being good and doing the right thing. This is good, because you don't want him sneaking around and peeing in places that you find later. Umbatoo War Dance --- did this involve a live chicken and peach preserves? I think you are totally correct that being kennelled in entire life, he just doesn't know any different. That was THREE YEARS of repetition! He done okay for the first 2 wks because he didn't know HE LIVED there. It was new and he thought he was visiting, NOW he KNOWS this is his home and THIS ..... his home ..... is where he uses the bathroom, because he has been doing it for the past 3 years. Advice: man this is going to take time. He is smart and will catch on, eventually. I guess staying outside is not an option? What about for a while? Part-time? Just long enough to redirect his thinking that OUTSIDE is where he lives? Since he's backward in his thinking, not any fault of his, this may work. Patience.......repetition....... a thought, if you crate him >> he'll just go in the crate, you think??[/quote] Well... I followed your advice and put his as.... errrrrr him out da door. Seriously, he absolutely seems to dread going outside unless he thinks we are going somewhere. The sad part is I've had to hook a run up and tie him out :( . We have a fenced yard, but when outside, he will only run back up the stairs and stay on the step indefinitely. We hooked up a run between a couple of trees and ran a cable from a little ticker wheel on it to hook to his collar. He has about 50 ft length and 20 ft width he can run, so he's not just tied in one spot. Oh, and we haven't banished him there. Nothing sadder than a Standard tied outside :-? . Anyhoo, we have been tying him there to eat (on one end) and leaving him there until he does his bid'ness (other end), trying to give him the idea that that is part of his home, too. Also, he gets LOTS of treats and petting and gushing while he's out there, trying to make it a positive thing instead of a punishment. He's probably tied there about an hour or two out of the day and is loose in the fenced portion of the yard about 4-5 hours a day. I'm hoping this will help. So far, so good, but I have been REALLY diligent with him in the house, monitoring his every move. When he starts pacing around in the house (basically every minute he is not asleep), I hook his leash to me and he is tied to me so that I can react quickly to any ummm crises that erupt. All I have to do is run for the door and he has no choice but to go with me. However, I haven't needed to do that since doing this. Maybe if I'm diligent enough, he'll catch on. :-? Thanks for everystuff. Oh, and as for the ritualistic Umbatoo War Dance.... it is designed to make pesky neighbors think you're insane. I'll have to share it with you sometime. :grab:

[quote name='Dad4duchess']Duchess will get off of us when we tell her to but when we have guest she won't stop :agrue:[/quote] Here's how we solved that problem. We absolutely never ever ever accept unexpected company. Anyone who knows me knows they'd better call before just showing up at my door. I have been known to peep out at people through my front window, shrug and go back into the house. I am adamant about it. I don't care if it's Ed McMahon and the Prize Patrol. He'd better call first. I have a whole houseful of dogs and some unexpected, inconsiderate nut showing up at my door is just enough to create chaos. By having people call first, I have total control of how the dogs are handled when people arrive plus you don't have guests who are screaming bloody murder and jumping up and down on the furniture about the dogs jumping on them (which is why I usually mutter, "shoulda forking called first"). I'm ready and waiting to control any jumping behavior which I usually do with a leash and verbal control (actually, most dogs are confined to another room if I'm expecting company... my more friendly dogs get to stay out, but jumping is not allowed). Anyway, I can't stress enough how important it was to me to know people were coming where I could maintain control when I was going through the whole jumping up training. I have no problem with that control now, but it sure made training easier instead of having people pop up randomly (besides, can you tell that I loathe inconsiderate, unannounced guests?).

Housebreaking... such a simple thing when you've had a gazillion dogs. I have had (and still have) dogs of varying breeds, raised from puppies, adopted as adults, intact, spayed/neutered... yup, I thought I was an old pro. Now we have Perry. That's the Standard Poodle I adopted about three weeks ago. For the first couple of weeks, this dog wouldn't dream of pottying in the house. Prior to rescue, he was in a kennel for three years, so I never expected him to be potty trained. Still, that first couple of weeks, we were so impressed at the way he would trot to the door when he needed to go out. Now, for whatever reason, his logic has turned. He absolutely refuses to potty outside if he can help it. No, he saves it until he comes back IN. Ok, let me illustrate. The scene goes like this. Perry starts pacing around the house looking kinda serious. I know that sign, so I whoosh him to the door. He bounds to the door happily as if he's ready to go, but the minute it opens, he turns tail back into the house like he's saying, "I don't frickin' think so, man!" So, me being the dedicated owner and all, I grab his leash which excites him even more (he thinks we're going somewhere) and he does his pretty little sit thingy while I hook him up. I lead him out the door and into the yard and unhook the leash. He hauls @$$ back up the steps to the house. Fine. I hook him back up and we walk and walk and walk and walk and stand for a minute and walk some more and stare off into space and walk again and still NOTHING. He absolutely refuses to potty on a leash and is beginning to refuse to potty in the yard at all. This has not been a problem for the first two weeks. Anyway, I give up, thinking maybe I misread him and let him back into the house. He races up the stairs as fast as he can and instantly PEES IN MY FLOOR!!! I don't get it. It's not the typical male leg lifting, marking behavior and he doesn't seem to prefer any one spot over another, so it's not that I'm not removing enough "scent" to deter him. No, at this point, I'm about to remove flooring from all the scrubbing. Besides (again), he does not have a particular favorite spot. It's like he's outside pacing around saying, "OH MY GOD, WILL SOMEONE PUHLEEZE OPEN THE DOOR SO I CAN GO INSIDE... I GOTTA PEEEEEE!!!" I have not had to do the crate thing with him in regard to housetraining and he is with me virtually 24/7. I take him with me to work and we only eat out at dog friendly places (places with outside tables and such), so he can go with us. He never potties when we are "out"... not even during the 10 or so hours I'm gone to work, not so much as a leg lift against a tree, though I turn him out each day in a fenced courtyard to do his doody (or ANYTHING). No, he saves it until he is home and safely in the house. What's the deal with this?! Is he just modest and afraid someone is going to see him and point and laugh, or what? The thing is he seems to not be catching on that he's doing it all wrong. He pees right in front of me and just smiles as if it's what I told him to do. My response has been this... run like h*ll to try to get him out the door. I'd praise him profusely there if he'd frickin' GO!!! I don't get it. He's such an intelligent dog and catches on to things so quickly. He is becoming a whiz (no pun intended) in obedience. Somewhere along the way, he has gotten the idea that he's supposed to potty inside. I don't know where he gets that. He's never seen ME do it and if anyone is going to suggest that I squat in my yard to show him where to go (I saw that advice somewhere... can you imagine), please know that I have neighbors who already think I'm off my rocker for doing the Umbatoo War Dance (don't ask) in my back yard. I'm sure me peeing for my dog in my yard would be the last straw. Anyway, what now? This beats all I ever saw. I've housetrained a ton of dogs ranging from puppies to adults and have never seen anything like this. No matter how long he is outside, or whether I put him out and watch through the window and leave him alone, or stay in the yard with him, he will hold it until he's inside. As far as I know, nothing traumatic has happened to him outside. I'm assuming that being kenneled his whole life has made him used to pottying where he has to live. Tell me what to do. Am I not beating him right? Ok, just kidding. There have been beatings, alright. Me beating my head on the wall. Help? :multi: [img]http://groups.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetMBPhoto&ImageID=nEQDbdysGXjMqJQO8VWWPci7r9FqUFwEml9xz52NTI6tvYAecdndHbg[/img]

[quote name='Hobbit'][quote name='Jacsmom']Question::: Do you believe you could take two even tempered dogs non-agressive (tested to the extreme)... but by nature are suppose to be agressive... And breed the agression out of the breed "without" outcrossing to another breed? My question is would this "mean" gene at some point be "lost" or bred out of the breed itself?[/quote] Jacsmom: you can believe me or not, I don't care. I study and apply genetics for a living. [/quote] Whoa.... I don't think she was questioning your credentials. I believe she was asking a valid question. Hard day at the office? Intended humorously, of course. You seem a bit on edge tonight. :2gunfire:

Nooooooooooo, Hobbit, I think you misunderstood her comment on the computer literacy thing. Either that, or I am misunderstanding it. I took that comment to mean that she doesn't know how to post with the quote box and so kinda made a funny about herself when she said that someday she would add "computer literate" to her credentials. At least, that is the way I took it. I did not read an attempt to slam you at all and don't think she was calling you computer illiterate. :agrue:

YES, Bitter Apple works wonderfully. It's a crisis in my household of eight dogs if I run out of it. One of my eight, however, likes the stuff. Go figure. I need to add this... it's not necessarily the solution to any problem, but an aid in training. Of course, you'll still want to monitor puppy and correct any undesirable and dangerous behaviors (training is critical!), but Bitter Apple certainly does work in my household as a deterrent (I use it on a couple of my dogs to curb foot licking... they are being treated for allergies, but occasionally they still lick lick lick which creates even more problems such as infections).

And all that said, I never did hit on the fact that we've discovered some physical problems with my knucklehead dog (said with affection) that have caused her to become so unstable (at least we think so). :-?

[quote name='Gordonmom'] If you believe that bad breeding produces bad dogs in dogs, then you also have to believe that bad breeding in people produces bad people. I don't know. But it is hard to tell if criminals are the result of their genetic make-up or the enviornment in which they were raised. There is also the personality question that has to be asked. Some dogs, like people, are easy-going. Some are difficult to deal with. I have to believe that how that personality trait is shaped, is a lot how the dog or person will act. And if it is the result of bad breeding, then pit-bull owners just better agree with the fact that there are TONS of bad pit-bull breeders out there, and that the media has the right to condemn a dog on generalizations.[/quote] Oh, now this might be opening a whole 'nuther can of worms, but I do believe that *ahem* people can be born "bad." Of course, we are talking exceptions here and not generalizations, but you better believe that I think there are puhlenty of folks who should never breed. I do believe that [b][u]generally[/u][/b] personality traits (whether dogs or people) are influenced by things such as environment, socialization and such. However, I stand firm in my belief that it certainly [b][u]can[/b][/u] be influenced by genetics. Too bad there isn't any test. Why would it seem so radical to think that behavior can not be influenced by physical and chemical factors? Think about it... how many women do you know who are otherwise nice people who become insane at "that time of the month?" A change in mood and personality is brought about by physical and chemical changes in a lot of women during this time, so is it not feasible that some people/dogs are just plain hardwired all wrong altogether creating "monsters?" Anyhoo, I really have some strong thoughts on this, so I'm just scratching the surface, but I effectively wanted to say that, yeah, I believe some people are just plain born bad, though that doesn't mean they can't overcome odds that are stacked against them if they are aware of it (such as my choice to totally abstain from any form of alcohol, or mind altering drugs, even OTC, because of the history of addiction amongst EVERY member of my immediate and distant family... reckon there could be a genetic link? Not worth it to me to experiment). However, dogs don't have the ability to reason the way we do, so if one has a "hardwiring" problem, well, you know... I do agree that the general public should recognize that there are plenty of bad pit bull breeders out there, but not that the media has the right to condemn the dog on generalizations. What they need to be condemning is irresponsible ownership and breeding, but then that doesn't sell papers. Anything more than that is supermarket tabloid dreck and who lends that any credibility, anyway?

My absolute favorite Bichon name that I've ever ran across is Bijoux. It's French for "gem" or "jewel." I love that name.

I am surely sticking my neck on the chopping block, but here goes... I kinda sorta have to take exception that ANY aggressive, ill mannered, insert-negative-adjective here dog is a result of poor socialization and lack of training. *Gulp* here goes... My own beloved Penny who, by all accounts, is a mutt (whew) has a screw loose. She is 3/4 Pit Bull and 1/4 Boxer (if I have that right... anyhoo, the mother was straight down the middle half Bully/Boxer and the father all Pit... it was a "carefully planned" breeding <said with dripping sarcasm>). I have had Penny since she was 5 weeks old since the old, overbred, dilapidated mother simply couldn't take care of that litter any more. She excels in obedience, has been in every social environment, was raised in a multiple pet household and is an all around great dog. Until she "clicks." She has become increasingly volatile in the last couple of years, biting one child who was taunting her (ok, I really think he deserved it which made me want to justify that incident, but it's really not acceptable behavior) and attacking my other dogs with increasing fury. It's not lack of training and socialization and she has no problem with obedience. According to one behaviorist we contacted and our vet, it was believed that Penny possibly had rage syndrome as there was nothing else to explain her behavior (some other things have come up since then that we are exploring and hoping for the best with). It's sudden and VERY unpredictable. She is extremely dog aggressive to other large, strange dogs. I have no doubt that she would kill another large dog, or die trying to, if she were able to get to it. Penny is now on medication which does seem to help control the frequency and ferocity of attacks. Of course, she is NEVER left unsupervised with the rest of the gang, or anywhere for that matter. She is, I believe, a product of poor breeding. It's what happens when people want a "tough" dog which is what the "breeder" was breeding for. Who cares about temperament as long as they're tough? Don't even get me started on the rubber band around the tail docking thing :x . The breeder, by the way, was my own sister. She couldn't sell these dogs as she had planned and ended up having to "get rid" of them. We took Penny. My sister and I do not speak to this day (she doesn't raise her children any better than she raises dogs... oh, and I also got a couple of kittens that had to be bottle fed from her overbred, old dilapidated mama cat... just to illustrate ethics). Anyhoo, I just keep seeing where people are saying that ANY dog that is aggressive is automatically a product of poor training and lack of socialization and it kind of bugs me. I mean, I don't think I've raised Penny irresponsibly and have no problem with her being obedient. She does fine on a leash and in public and I can take her anywhere. She just has a screw loose which makes her (I reckon) a product of poor breeding. I know that gal will kill another dog if she gets a chance. Ain't no training that out of her.:( This is not to say I think she is from a bad breed, but rather a result of bad breeding. I don't think Pits are bad dogs with people, but I do tend to think I wouldn't want to have another one of questionable temperament in my multiple dog household and let's face it... not too many people are breeding them with temperament in mind unless it's for fighting. Ok, vent over... back to the topic at hand.

Science doc, I don't know anything about the Dekalb Co. shelter. I lived in Dekalb Co. for a little while (Bouldercrest Rd. area), but never had any dealings with any of the shelters in that area as I couldn't have a pet at the time and the job I had at that time left me with NO free time. I've heard rotten things about the Atlanta area shelters, but I think it's great that you are wanting to make a difference. I honestly am a person who believes that all things happen for a reason and, sooner or later, you'll end up where your presence is most needed. I wish I knew something that could be of help.

Go to the bottom of that page and click on "appendix." Then there will be even MORE reading (yay) and at the bottom of THAT page you will click on "Dog Food Survey Results." That's where the brand names are.

Welcome back, Science Doc, from a fellow Georgian! Actually, a few minutes further down the road and I'd be a Floridian... :oops: Anyhoo, welcome back! :D

Oh my... I'll post it one more time and if it's going to cause problems, I'll just start another thread and paste the entire text there. Someone else said they'd had problems once opening this. On my computer, it opens as a Word document. :oops: [url]http://www.fda.gov/cvm/efoi/DFreport.doc[/url]

Around here, (rural southeast US), the primary reason for people not having their pets spayed/neutered is just plain ol' cheapness and apathy. All the education in the world doesn't do a thing for the select not-so-few who really just don't care one way or the other. After all, that's what the shelter is there for... to take the puppies that you couldn't "get rid of," yourself ("you" in the broad categoric sense, ya know?). Despite being a rural area, we have a couple of amazing shelters who dump huge amounts of their limited funds into mass education campaigns and certificates and low cost spay/neuter options, but too many people just don't care. It's not that they have some hidden agenda behind their well-thought-out-though-ill-advised decisions. They just don't care. How do you cure people of apathy? I get so frustrated. If the dogs roam loose, get killed on the highways, or by another free roaming, intact dog, oh well... the solution is to just get another dog from someone else just like them, too sorry to spay their dog. They aren't swayed by statistics, or sad stories. This is not to say that no one here spays/neuters their pets. I'm just angry about the many who don't, but they don't even try to pretend that it was a well thought out decision. Not really going anywhere with this. Just a vent. :x Anyhoo, about the early spay/neuter thing... my vet will do it as early as 8 weeks on puppies and kittens coming in from the shelter and they do heal amazingly fast. A week later, there is barely even a visible scar from the surgery. Still, for the general public, he does typically advise to wait until 6 months of age. He says that's just because too many people are way too uncomfortable with the idea of doing it much earlier, so he just gives them "traditional" advice.

And if anyone is interested in the US government's (FDA) report on sodium pentobarbital (yes, the drug used in euthanasia) in commercial dog foods, you can check it out at [url]http://www.fda.gov/cvm/efoi/DFreport.doc[/url] This opens as a Word document for me, so if anyone has problems reading it, I'll start another thread and post it there. It's very long, but it gives the names of commercial dog foods tested and found to contain sodium pentobarbital. It is somewhat open to scrutiny meaning that the FDA, though it has determined that some foods do indeed contain SP, doesn't believe the amounts are significant enough to be detrimental. Other independent vets, however, believe that it can be accumulated in fat and liver cells and could very well lead to problems down the road. Since there are no longterm studies supporting the government's "harmless" claim, I'm of a mind to want to avoid the drug in my dogs' food altogether. Also, there was no way to regulate the amounts of the drug found in these foods. Some batches contained significantly higher/lower amounts than other batches of the same food, so there is really no way to determine a "safe" amount of SP. Anyway, check it out. Is your dog's food on the list?

In short, I think the solution to the problem is to stop the cycle of supply and demand. If John Q. Public didn't want backyard bred and mill puppies, there would be no demand, therefore no supply. More legislation regarding microchips and litter limits will only serve to keep honest people honest. Unfortunately, you can't legislate common sense and plain ol' ethics.

I got my white Standard Poodle from the rescue today! Yippee! He's three years old and we are calling him Perry. He was in a kennel his whole life until he went into rescue, so EVERYTHING is new to him. I mean, he is even having to learn to navigate stairs! He is getting along well with my other dogs except for Penny, my Bully/Boxer mix, but she is VERY dog aggressive, anyway. It will be a very slow introduction with her. Still, he is doing great. He's funloving, bouncy and not nervous, or shy at all. He's one of those take-it-all-in-stride dogs. I think I'm in love! Here is his photo. He was shaved down recently, so he doesn't look very poodley and he has some staining on his coat from the kennelling, but give us time. He is going to be absolutely gorgeous! Right now, he looks sort of like a big, fuzzy hound. [img]http://groups.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetMBPhoto&ImageID=nHwDbdzgLRJ*tLRHPGGCWUv3cyLxsjAvvHSWCHhK7G8gQxb4JGSs16z1sPdXTUAj3[/img]

Well, I went to chat and my computer let me in for all of about 2 seconds. Stoopit 'puter! :x