Seijun

Here is where my information comes from: [url]http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/gsd1.htm[/url] [quote]Subject: AKC German Shepherds are Wolf "Hybrids"/Wolfdogs by Ann Dresselhaus -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3/21/97 All dogs are "wolfdogs". The only difference between them (besides appearance and temperament) is the number of generations away from a "pure" wolf the individual canine is. The original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), shows several pure wolves were used to "create" the breed and this was only 90 years ago! Similar events can be uncovered for Alaskan Malamutes, Siberian Huskies, Belgian Shepherd types, and many rarer-breed "dogs". German Shepherds were recently the MOST POPULAR AKC breed. Imagine that -- a 'wolfdog' is the most popular working/companion dog! I think a key question to be answered is: WHEN does a 'wolf become a dog?? l. Since the wolf and the dog are the same species, is there really such an entity as a wolf "HYBRID". 2. Since all doge are descended from wolves, are not all dogs 'wolfdogs'? - the only difference between them (besides appearance and temperament) being the number of generations away from a 'pure' wolf the individual 3. Are we really not just talking about 'recent' wolf crosses (the onus being on us to define 'recent'' Many (but not all!) of the dogs we have today resulted from the PRIMARY domestication of the Old World Southern Wolf, a smaller, less pack-oriented animal than the Northern Wolf, the wolf we are most familiar with today and which most of the 'recent' wolf crosses have used. I say MANY dogs, but not all because many of the Northern breeds are the result of a SECONDARY domestication of the result of the primary with the Northern Wolves as 'recent' as 90 years ago (documented in the German Shepherd). The primary happened thousands of years ago, but it is a mistake to think that that was the LAST time wolves were used in dog breeds. I present the following research for your perusal: The original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), shows several pure wolves were used to 'create' the breed. Captain Von Stephanitz, of the German infantry, bought sheep-hearding dogs (many of them field trial winners) from all over Europe in the late 1800's and early 1900's and bred them together to create his 'ultimate service dog'. He started a registry and stud book. His favorite dog, Hektor, he gave the first # (SZ 1). Hektor was 1/4th wolf. He was bred to every decent bitch around, and all the dogs originally imported to America were proudly traced back to him. Shortly thereafter, the German Shepherd Dog's (GSD) name was changed to Alsatian Wolf Dog. Their popularity soared for a while, then fell tremendously as the media sensationalized every trivial remotely negative event that occurred associated with a canine with the word 'wolf' in it. There were arguements left and right - " Was the Alsatian Wolfdog (GSD) the best working/most capable/most intelligent dog that ever walked the face of the earth OR was Alsatian Wolfdog (GSD) the unpredictable/livestock eating/human attacking beast from hell?? Sound familiar? Well, we know how that one turned out. The name was eventually changed back to GSD, things calmed down, and the GSD soon reached it peak at the top of the 'most popular dog' list shortly after Rin Tin Tin aired. In the first decade of 1900, Von Stephanitz wrote a book (in German) about his loyal hard working dogs called "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture" in which he documents the above heritage and pleas to the breeders not "to add more wolf blood" into his dogs as he had ALREADY found the IDEAL combination. In 1923, an American version was translated VERBATIM. Not many copies were printed and few still exist. [email]Fang@howling.com[/email] has a pricey (about $350) original and more may(?) be found by doing rare book searches. In 1932, an 8th Enlarged and 'Revised' (read sanitized) version was financed by English speaking 'interests'. All references to the positive wolf heritage were removed and most GSD fanciers have been denying RECENT wolf heritage ever since. Herr Strebel is quoted in "The Alsatian Wolf-Dog", by G. Horowitz as saying that he "has seen how easily a wolf can step into the pedigree of Alsatians without causing all those terrible phenomena which are considered to be the results of crossing with a wolf". He gives an example of a hybrid wolf (whose granddam was a wolf) who "absolutely had the temperament of a Sheepdog; who was obedient and faithful, and the pet of the house" (page 14, "Concerning the Wolf Cross"). He goes on to state that this is a striking example of how quickly all trace of wolf's blood is lost in a 'domesticated' breed. In 1912, Monsieur Henry Sodenkamp wrote in the Belgian Journal, Chasse et Peche (The Chase and Hunt), that it is the French opinion that "THE WOLF LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE ALSATIAN". (The breed was partially created in Alsace, France). Mores Plieningen, SZ #159, who was bred to the first Stud dog, Horand Von Grafath (previously known as Hektor) and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of every GSD in the world today, was the granddaughter of a wolf at the Stuttgart Zoo/Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early GSD line. (Captain Von Stephanitz bought Hektor Liksrhein and renamed him Horand Von Grafath, after his kennel name.) In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 WOLF Crosses.". (Note: [email]fang@howling.com[/email] OWNS the actual Volume I and II of the GSD Stud books. I have interlibrary loaned the other old books mentioned and made copies of all the relevant statements.) So, I ask of you, are (AKC) German Shepherds wolf 'hybrids'? Ann Dresselhaus Cedar Rapids, IA [/quote] ~Seij

[quote name='TDG'][quote name='Seijun']The original GSD was created using wolf/dog breedings.[/quote] actually that's not quite correct. one of the ancestors of the first dog von stephanitz bought for his breeding program [i]originated[/i] from a dog/wolf crrossbreeding. that's about it. von stephanitz developed his breed based on the traditional german sheepherding dogs. these don't have much more of a background of an actual wolf than any other traditional breed out there. (by that i mean region specific working dogs.) it is true that some breeders tried to develop the looks (and health, mainly susceptibility to distemper) of their lines by crossing in wolves, but von stephanitz was very much against this, since the obvious side effects of crossing in wolves were excessive prey drive, shyness, flight and nervousness - traits that were not desirable at all for the vision of a working dog he had and that are still faults in the breed standard until today! von stephanitz always focused more on temperament and working ability rather than on looks. in his opinion, a good dog can't come in a bad color. :)[/quote] Actually, the founder dog did have some recent wolf heritage, and 4 wolf crosses were known to have been used in the GSD making. Although F2, F1, and mid-high content wolf crosses would exhibit undesirable traits, lower content animals were reported as being very good working dogs (although not widely used because of the bad rap wolf crosses get). 1/4 wolf crosses were especially good as working dogs (more specifically, as sled dogs). Old accounts I have read actually report the 1/4 crosses as being very wonderful pets (1/4th crosses would be considered low content, and by that time the shyness, prey drive, nervousness, etc would be all but gone). Police forces using the Czech dog have reported them as being MUCH better than GSD's; much more intelligent, better tactability, strength, etc, which are all traits reported in the original GSD's. Although wolf inheritance did not overwhelm the GSD's origins, that does not mean they did not play a crucial role. In the development of the both the Czech dog and the GSD, wolves were used only at the beginning. Through careful breeding the undesirable traits were bred out, but the wolf's intelligence, strong senses, strength, etc, were kept. These traits were all crucial to both dogs as a breed, with the intelligence part being the MOST valuable of all the traits the GSD and Czech dog inherited from the wolf. Of course neither can be considered a true wolf cross now that each is so far removed from the original wolves used to make them, but the wolf crosses were crucial to their making (unfortunately, the GSD has lost much of the unique temperament given to it by the wolf, most likely because they began being bred for looks and for the show ring). It is interesting to note however that here in the US, the Czechoslovakian wolfdog is now being called the Czechoslovakian shepherd because of the prejudice they would face if they were called WOLFdogs (this is exactly why the Alsatian Wolfdog's name was later changed to GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG). ~Seij

[quote name='ObedienceGrrl'][quote name='Seijun']I also saw a picture once of Hitler sitting with one of his GSD's which looked EXACTLY like a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (which is really what the original GSD's looked the most like).[/quote] Is this anything like a Sarloos Wolfhound?[/quote] Yes, but they have a more greyish color. ~Seij

OT a little, but since the GSD was mentioned... the original GSD actually looked nothing like today's dogs or even the ones in the AKC illustrations. If a GSD from back then where to show up now, any shelter would label it a mix bred because they look so unlike today's GSDs. Here is a link with some pictures of them. [url]http://www.shilohshepherds.info/whatIsAShilohShepherd.htm[/url] I also saw a picture once of Hitler sitting with one of his GSD's which looked EXACTLY like a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (which is really what the original GSD's looked the most like). In fact, IMO the Czech dog is probably the closest we have to the original GSD. The original GSD was created using wolf/dog breedings. The Czech dog was made by taking a GSD in reintroducing "wolf blood" into the line, in a sense, bringing it back in time to what the original GSD had been. ~Seij

Because I was bored last night and this morning, and had nothing better to do with my time, I decided to create some designer breeds on Photoshop. This actually got started somewhere else, but I was so happy with my results I thought I would post them here :D [url]http://groups.msn.com/Dog-O-Maniaphotohosting/shilo.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2610[/url] The "Goad". It was part of some experimental breeding projects that were done in the mid-1800. The goad was used primarily for pulling carts but quickly fell out of fashion due to its habit of always trying to seek out water to swim in (as you can imagine, this behavior would have been very inconvenient for the Goad's passengers). [url]http://groups.msn.com/Dog-O-Maniaphotohosting/shilo.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2611[/url] The "Purse". It was first created in Eastern China sometime during the early 16th century A.D. It was a completely useless animal but some specimens can still be found as pets in remote forest villages of the region. These little guys were fun to make, I am trying to think up some other interesting ones to do, anyone have any ideas? Maybe a cow/dog mix...? (heh, the "original" Bulldog!! :lol: ) ~Seij

Yes, the dog is in Florida. However, arrangements have now been made to send the dog to a sanctuary where her adoptability can be evaluated. She will stay at the sanctuary if they decide not to adopt her out. ~Seij

HE and his mother seemed to think the dog was out of control. :roll: The pup was only about 8 months old, and they only had her about three months. The only thing she EVER did wrong was follow me home every morning and evening if she was lose (she hardly ever ran away by herself). She never barked or howled unless a stranger came into the yard or they were gone all day and had left her tied up. She never chewed on ANYTHING even if she was very bored. She was even house trained even though they never let her indoors. The husband and mother grew to hate the pup though because it ran off from home so much and if they YELLED at it to come (i.e.-"Come here, I'm gonna beat you good") she would tuck in her tail and run even further away. The other thing they hated was how if guests came she would run up to greet them and try to lick their hands. The guests would yell at her when she came to great them. The owners tried to give her away but no one wanted her, so they took her to the shelter and they didn't have room I guess (please note, the owners tried only a few days to find her a new home). Really, you couldn't have found an easier dog anywhere. At least the husband didn't get the German shepherds he had wanted (or as he put it "I really like dogs, I might get a whole pack of German shepherds)". ~Seij

I assume Florida. I will ask though just to make sure. ~Seij

No, no one ever reported him. The dog was fed. It was horrible food, and often times wet from rain, but it was food, and the dog was not underweight. It had water, most of the time. The dog also had shelter, although she never used it. As far as beating, I never saw it, but the husband and his mother often yelled and threatened to beat the dog and after about a month of their having the dog she became [b]terrified[/b] of anything resembling a broom handle, although there were no physical signs of abuse. I wished that I could have reported him, but in the eyes of the law the dog was legally NOT being abused. :x You all know how that works... I don't know why the wife couldn't have reported it, but I don't know her well enough to judge (she strikes me as being extremely timid though, and she is always stuck with doing the hard work while the rest of the family just sits around, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the husband is abusive to her as well). ~Seij

Remember the lab/golden mix pup that I told you about-the one the self-proclaimed "animal loving" husband got, the one he never paid attention to, never played with but once, left his wife to take care of, fed only OldRoy on the occasion that they were home; the one he let run lose mere feet from the main road; the pup he would yell at, beat, and tie up if it ran away causing the pup to fear the husband and want to run away again, causing the husband to beat it and yell at it even more.. Remember that one? Well, they had it euthanized last week because the husband "didn't want to spend $1,000 on a fence" (hellooo, ever heard of an

Some field working dogs such as pointers have their tails docked to prevent the tail from being injured. A working pointer often ends up running through thick weeds, briars, and barbed fences. The tail is one of the most commonly injured places. An injured tail is painful and difficult to heal, so for the dog's own safety the tail is docked. For all who claim docking, cropping, and declawing is painful-yes it is. BUT when done properly and at a VERY early age, the pain usualy lasts only a few days. ~Seij

I do not really think those people were breed bashing (at least not how I saw it). Both posters agreed that bad breeding is what is causing all this, neither seemed against ALL labs. ~Seij

The next door neighbor's pups were jumping and licking Shilo's face and she regurgitated her last meal for them. Kinda interesting since it was something I had only seen on TV Plus for the past week or so Shilo has been excavating an old drain pipe. I'm assuming it

I like it. ~Seij

[quote name='Sarahstaff']How old is she? Elmo was 6 when he started weight pull, and 7 when he started carting: [/quote] She is about 5 or 6 years old. Unfortunately I just don't think she has the concentration level required to weight pull. Also, she didn't receive any training for anything until she was three. Pretty much any chance she had at a serious "job" was ruined by her first owners. [quote]As far as cow hocks being a benefit to wolves, not so sure that is true. If they were a solitary predator, it could be quite a drawback over time if the angle was more than moderate.[/quote] Wolves are not solitary though, although their cow hocking is quite often "more that moderate". ~Seij

Wonder what all the Rottie haters would say about this one... :wink: [url]http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/29/canine.caller.ap/[/url] ~Seij

That's weird how the cow hocks on your dog actually work in a negative way, Shilo has cow hocks like that but she's an absolute bull when it comes to pulling. I've actually considered turning her into a sled dog, but I think she is too old now to actually start learning. ~Seij

Out of curiousity, is there a name for when the front feet are splayed outward (elbows angle in, causing front paws to point sideways and away from the body instead of strait forward)? My Shilo has that too, especially when she is nervous or upset-then she stands so that her front paws apear VERY splayed to the point that her "wrists" touch and her hind legs splay out so much that her "heels" touch. ~Seij

No, it was just something I was wondering about. I had once heard that you needed a liscence if you had over a certain number of breeding pairs but I wasn't sure. ~Seij

Does a person need a liscense to breed dogs or does it depend on the individual state, the number of dogs being bred, and/or if the person plans to sell the pups for profit? ~Seij

I always thought cow-hocking looked kinda pretty.. :( IMO it gives a dog a more "natural" look. ~Seij

This makes me so MAD! Stupid AC!! :evil: Please email [email]ddeppen2003@juno.com[/email] if you can help this poor dog... :( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deanna Deppen" <ddeppen2003@juno.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:26 PM Subject: Tragic Situation-Need HELP! Below is an email I received about an Akita needing a home. If anyone knows someone who may be able to help in this tragic situation, please let me know. She has already tried a number of rescues (most of whom tell her immediately to "put the dog down") and Best Friends (who said they have no room). This is a tragic situation in which she does not even have the option of fighting animal control or her homeowner's association...as the soon-to-be-ex will use it against her if she tries to keep the dog... > Deanna, > > Thank you for speaking with me about my beautiful Akita. My heart is breaking right now at the thought of going to sleep in a house without my Mikimoto. > > I got Miko as an 11 week old puppy. She is AKC registered and Schithzund trained. She is perfectly mannered, rarely barks, and has never chewed any of our things or gotten into anything that wasn't hers. She has been through my side through thick and thin for over 9 years. She was the only one I knew when I moved from Oregon to Florida 4 years ago. When I got married 2 years ago she was the Maid of Honor in my wedding, with a flower collar to match my bouquet. > We got married on a private island in the keys which has never allowed dogs on the island before. The owner made an exception because Miko was so well behaved, trained and beautiful. The wedding picture, featuring Miko, was published in Town and Country magazine. > > When my son was born last year Miko instantly fell in love with him. Every morning he would sit on my lap and she would lick him until he pushed her away. When he'd crawl she'd nudge him along with her nose just like a mamma dog. I am sure she thought he was the puppy she never had (because she is spayed). > > I have always known Miko was food aggressive. I never feed Miko when the baby is around. Last week I was running late, fed the dog, answered the phone, was doing things around the house and sat the baby down for a second. The baby immediately crawled over and stuck his face in the dogs bowl. Miko bit him in the face. I am sure she thought she was just correcting him, one dog to another, but it severely damaged his face. He required 26 sitches and will be > permanently scarred. > > Animal Control insists that Miko be put down. I am trying to negotiate with them if I can find a good home for her that doesn't include children. I can't live with the thought that the two that I care about the most (the baby's scars and the dog's possible death) are suffering because of my stupid mistake. Right now, Miko sits at the Vets, kenneled with only a few days to live unless I can find a home for her. I wish I could have her here sitting at my feet, but > Animal Control, my neighborhood association, and baby's father will not allow it. I am crying as I type this letter out. > > I have emailed a friend to try to get a picture to email you. I know if you could see her I know you'd fall in love with her too. > > Please, please help save Mikimoto. > > Colleen > > > Deanna L. Deppen, Secretary > Shy Wolf Sanctuary, Education & Experience Center, Inc. > Cell Phone: 239-290-9867 Email: [email]admin@shywolfsanctuary.org[/email] ~Seij

[quote]I have been told and have read that it is a genetic problem,[/quote] I have been told this too, and I know that cow-hocking is not accepted in AKC standards, at least not the ones I have looked at but I am wondering, why is cow-hocking considered so "bad"? All wolves have cow-hocked legs, it is part of their natural build, and it aids in their movement. If it was not a benefit for them to have cow-hocked legs then natural selection would have bred it out of them by now. Does it have something to do with the length of a wolf's legs in comparison to that of dogs (wolves having the longer legs of the two, usually)? ~Seij

My Shilo has an extreme cow-hock, but I don't have any good pictures of it. ~Seij

Aussies, huskies, and Great Danes can all have blue eyes. There are several other breeds that can too but those were the only ones I could think of right now. ~Seij