Seijun

I'm not saying that ANYONE should euthanize a dog just because they don't want it or can't keep it, but I DO think euthanasia should be accepted if the alternative would have been to dump the dog (or puppies) on the street to starve, have them grow up on a chain in the back yard, or give them away "free" and have them end up in abusive or neglectful hands. I think a lot of us forget sometimes that no matter how hard we try, not every dog can be adopted. With the number of dogs in the USA currently needing homes, even if every person adopted one, there would still be thousands needing homes. Of course now with the publicity the pups are getting they will be adopted for sure, but what about before? What would have happened to the puppies if the owner hadn't decided to kill them? They [i]might[/i] have ended up in good homes, or they [i]might[/i] have ended up on the street, or they [i]might[/i] have grown up to produce even more litters.. There are just so many "might have's" in this situation. Again, I am not saying I agree or disagree with this person's actions, I am just prompting thought here. No need to get angry about it, everyone is entitled to their own opinions… On the subject of newspaper articles, one of the BIG reasons I am not taking sides is because of the inaccuracy news articles can have when they are dealing with ANY sequence of events. When you read an article, you assume it is all or mostly true. Half the time though, the article is riddled with half-truths and outright lies. As one example, I once saw a news story claiming a wolf had escaped from a man who had lived in an apartment with the wolf and who had also owned a Labrador. According to the newscasts, the wolf was to be "rehabilitated and released into the wild." I was given a chance to talk to the man and also some others who knew the story first hand, and it turns out the wolf was actually a high percentage wolf hybrid. The man did NOT live in an apartment and he did not have a pet Labrador. His "wolf" was not going to be released into the wild (this would have been impossible anyway) but it was actually going to be sent to a sanctuary. A lot of times, when reporters go out to do a story, they will go to neighbors or “friends” of the person to find out what happened. These people probably don’t know about most of what is going on anyway and they will just make guesses or assumptions as to what happened. These guesses and assumptions end up in the news story as “facts”. ~Seij

Courtneck.. I never said anything about drowning puppies. Anyway, true, puppies do get adopted faster, but we don't know the whole story. We have no idea how crouded the shelter was, or if there was even a shelter near him, or if he had a car/truck to travel with... The shelter near me gets puppies all the time, last time I was there, there was an entire litter of puppies scheduled to be PTS soon. Puppies do get adopted faster, but that doesn't [b]guarantee[/b] that they will be adopted. I just don't feel I know enough about this situation to pass accurate judgement. A single shot to the head is just as quick, and no less painful than a needle (if done right). I know the second we hear about someone shooting an animal, we start thinking up all these horrible scenes, but if you go down to the raw basics, euthanasia by needle and euthanasia by gun are exactly the same-in each case, the dog will STILL die quick and painlessly. The only difference between the two is the phyciological impact each has on people. Shooting a puppy sounds a LOT worse than "euthanizing" a puppy, even though the dog still dies painlessly each time. (Don't get me wrong, I deffinately prefer euthanasia by needle over euthanasia by shooting, because you can't guarantee that the person will shoot right on the first try. There is no way I could ever shoot a puppy, and this guy was deffinately irrisponsible for letting the puppies 'happen' in the first place, but I just don't know enough about his situation to judge his ultimate decission). ~Seij

I think that if he was unable to find the dogs homes, it would have been best for them to have been killed if it meant sparing them from a horrible life in a world where they were unwanted and uncared for. Would it have cost him anything though to have had the pups taken to a vet to be euthanized? Also, don't think I am being cruel here or anything, but if done correctly, shooting [i]can[/i] be done humanely (i.e.-single shot, kills instantly)... Personaly, I would prefer for an animal to be euthanized by a vet rather than done by oneself with a gun-a weapon with the potential to cause such pain and suffering if not used correctly or in the hands of an inexperienced shooter. ~Seij

To keep the ring on a dog's collar from getting hooked on something, you could try wrapping plasic wrap and foil over it. ~Seij

When I first went out looking for a dog, I had decided to "adopt" an adult dog from a breeder, unsold from the previous year (yeah, I know, not a good breeder, but I didn't know any better then). A meeting place was set up, but months passed and she never got to me on WHEN we were to meet. I confronted her about it and she told me the dog had died of WNV. I don't know if that was what really happened, but in the end I found a good dog at the shelter anyway. ~Seij

JustThere, in the ideal world, every rescuer would help with rescues. Unfortunately, it takes a LOT of money and resources to be a good breeder, let alone a good breeder AND rescuer. Some breeders don't rescue not because they don't care, but because it would mean neglecting their own dogs. ~Seij

I have created a webpage displaying many wolfdogs in need of adoption from all over the US (and even Canada). Although I am by no means pressuring anyone here to adopt a wolfdog, I felt I should post this as a future refference in case anyone came accross it who just happened to be looking for a wolfdog. They are by no means rare, hundreds are PTS each year because of irrisponsible breeders and owners, as is the same with any other dog, both mixed and purebred. Homechecks WILL be done on anyone wanting to adopt. [url]http://www.liquinet.com/wolfdogadoption/[/url] ~Seij

My neighbor has the most horrid black lab I have ever seen, extremely territorialy and dominantly aggressive. He has tried to start fights with my dog and he has threatened to attack me on my own land (which is a full 3 miles from his house)!! Everyone who goes by that house carries a huge stick because once this dog DID attack a jogger and he had to shove a branch down the dog's throat to get it off of him. Despite this, the owners STILL let the dog run around free. I used to think this was an isolated event because labs are supposed to be one of the sweetest natured dog breeds around, but lately I have been hearing that more and more aggressive labs are currently being produced. One person claimed that one third of the labs coming into her vet office were horribly aggressive. Is it true that the number of dangerously aggressive labradors has been increasing? ~Seij

Hmm.. think about it this way.. You're walking along and someone you do not know is yelling at their large dog to "get" the smaller one. Wouldn't you be afraid it was animal abuse even if the dogs did not look abused?? Plus, I'm sure they expected you to claim that they were just playing, to them, they think you are just trying to cover up. (although, if it was easy to see that the dogs were playing, they shouldn't have threatened you. By playing I mean gentle wrestling or play bows with the happy puppy face on, not just wild chasing). I don't think AC could get you though, could they? I mean, if they can't find any sign of abuse and they see that the dogs obviously like each other, what can they do? ~Seij

Yeah, its very difficult to adopt from a breed specific rescue, but its all for the best. Shelters often adopt out dogs to homes unqualified to care for that particular breed. Breed rescues make SURE you can care for that breed! ~Seij

[quote]but they do not have a hierarchy with humans in the same way. If I live with a dog, it does not view me as a dog. [/quote] They don't have to see you as a dog to see you as submissive or dominant. Most dogs are willing to accept that you are dominant. Most dogs won't take advantage of "open spaces" and take over. But they will STILL view you in an order of rank (even if the dog isn't able to fully inderstand rank to the degree that a wolf will). My own dog DOES have a very pushy personality. I ALWAYS have to reinforce my apha role because she WILL take advantage of me when I don't. Some dogs are just like that. They don't need to view you as another dog, they just have to see you as part of their family/pack/whatever you want to call it. Many people beleive that dogs are actually like juevenile wolves-like puppies who never grew up. In a wolf pack, the puppies will naturaly see the adults as alpha. Dogs who are in this permanent juivinile stage may also see their owners as more like parents then pack mates, which helps contribute to their willingness to be submissive (although this is not the case for ALL dogs). [quote]I have whelped hundreds of litters of pups, and have helped raise many many litters including my own dogs last litter. Never once have I seen a mother dog scruff shake or muzzle hold, usually when the pups start getting rowdy momma dog leaves the whelping box. [/quote] Can't help it if you have never seen it. I have seen adult dogs use scruff shakes, muzzle holds, and even alpha rolls on pups. [quote][b]Seijun said[/b] [quote]Actually, the people who work with and train wolves HAVE to train them by being alpha. For wolves, pack position is extremely important. If you are working with a wolf pack, you HAVE to be the alpha. Serious dominance challenges in wild packs rarely occur, and serious challenges on an alpha wolf are even rarer. If you let a wolf be YOUR alpha, it could be very dangerous trying to reclaim alpha position, and dangerous to stay submissive because alpha wolves often correct submissive wolves through methods that could draw blood on a fragile human. People who I know who work with wolves who have become dominant over humans are often forced to never go into the pen with that wolf ever again because of the potential danger of the wolf exhibiting dominant behaviors towards the humans.[/quote] [b]Director of Wolf park Erich Klinghammer quote[/b] [quote]No one at wolf park-least of all the handlers-is ever fooled into believing the adult wolves are pets. In fact, handlers operate as if they are entering the wolves world, and they behave within the social rules of woves. They are carefully taught how to work with the wolves without antagonistic confrontations. [b]The handler does not try to behave like a pack leader and make the wolves submissive[/b]. [/quote][/quote] People who DO own wolves as 'pets' usually prefer to be seen as alpha, especially when they actively work to be seen by the wolf as part of the wolf's pack. (Sorry for not making that clearer. when I was refering to people who train and work with wolves I was thinking in the context of them being private owners) Wolf Park's wolves are used for study, not private ownership, so it is not nesasary for the handlers to be seen as alpha. They have to be careful not to be seen as submissive either. ~Seij

[quote]THAT'S messed up and it shows two things. One, that the "super alpha" was truly pushing her luck, and two that nature provides. In a normal pack, the Omega would never give birth. She would not be allowed to mate, until she had climbed the ladder to a higher status. in fact, she wouldnt come into heat.[/quote] The very fact that the one wolf was such a "super alpha" probably contributed to what happened within the pack. I am not entirely sure of the details of how she came to power, but I have a feeling whoever was alpha male got pushed out of the picture for the most part. With the alpha female pushing everyone around so much, it could easily have created such displacement within the pack that a male wolf would have been given a chance to get to the omega female. I have never heard though that the omegs shouldn't come into heat, I will look it up. It is normal for a pack to only have one litter per year like you said, but if their is extreme discplacement and unsettlement within a pack, multiple litters can be born. Wolf culling for instance, can actually increase wolf numbers by destroying the delicate "balance" of the pack when certain members are killed, this can disrupt a pack enough that two or even three litters will be born to the remaining pack, instead of just one. ~Seij

What I found interesting about your desensitizing method is that it is very much like the more "humane" methods that have recently come into practice for taming wild horses to be ridden. I completely wild horse is constrained in a special holding cell, and grain is filled into the cell around the horse's body. It keeps the horse from knocking around and hurting itself. Its head and neck stick out of a special hole in the wall so it can look around or turn its head any way it pleases. The trainer then yells, waives his arms, and flaps umbrellas in the horse’s face, until the horse has become completely desensitized to any sort of sudden, unexpected, flashy, or large-type movements. Such methods work wonders on the horse and in literaly just hours, the trainer is able to walk up and pet the horse without the horse even flinching, as if it had been tame its entire life! My own dog was very nervous and flinchy around new things so I spent months exposing her to large, loud, and new objects. She will never be completely desensitized, but she is much better than she used to be. Such methods may seem harsh at first, but they can do wonders and it does not hurt or traumatize the animal at all if done correctly, and in the right circumstances. ~Seij

[b]Very[/b] good post Courtneck! :D I think a lot of people see using wolf-pack psychology as forcing dogs into submission through fear, but it isn't like that at all! Part of it might be because on wolf programs, they always show the alpha wolf standing over a submissive one, growling and snarling aggressively. It gives the impression that the alpha rules by fear. Such aggressive stances are not uncommon, and although it looks quite vicious, it really isn't. A LOT of the communication between wolves can look vicious and dangerous because wolves often express themselves through growling, bared teeth, and intense posturing (in dogs, this communication is much more subtle and usually appears a lot less 'vicious'). This is all just their way of communicating. During breeding season these conflicts can escalate into fighting, but it is usually among lower ranking wolves. When young wolves mature they may sometimes challenge more dominant wolves and get alpha rolled for it, but even that rarely hurts them (wolves depend on their pack to survive, they can't afford to hurt each other with fighting). There [b]are[/b] what are called "super-alphas" though. These are wolves who are so alpha that they will repeatedly become dangerously aggressive with the pack. An alpha is supposed to be looked up to as a protector and caretaker, a "super-alpha" abuses this right, and becomes more like a dictator. The Druid Peak Pack is one fine example of this. The alpha female (don't know about the alpha male, he is not mentioned much, he too might have been overwhelmed by her) was what is referred to as a "super-alpha". She ran her own mother out of the pack. Later, she killed a litter of puppies born to her sister, an omega wolf (known as the "Cinderella wolf" because her alpha sister picked on her so). In the following season, two more litters were born, one from the alpha, and another from the Cinderella wolf. The alpha female again tried to kill the Cinderella wolf's litter of puppies. Before she could, the Cinderella wolf and the rest of the pack turned on her, killing her. The omega sister became alpha and raised both her and her sister's puppies. It is VERY important for us as dog owners to understand that being our dogs’ alpha does NOT mean we should rule them with fear. If we do, then we will be acting just like the "super-alpha" in the Druid Peak Pack. Alphas are not supposed to rule with fear and physical dominance. Like all leaders, an alpha is to respect the "pack" (dog or wolf) and watch over and protect them. (In one of my most favorite stories, a man's wolf was attacked by a pit bull. The wolf did not fight back but howled/yelped and tried to hide behind his 'owner', as the owner was alpha, and as the "alpha", it was the owner's job to protect him! :D ). Even though the behavior of dogs’ is usually much less intense than that of wolves, and like Courtneck said, many dogs are more than happy to accept as alpha regardless of our actions, I think we can still learn a lot about our canine companions by watching and studying the behaviors of their wild ancestors. ~Seij

[quote name='kendalyn'][quote]People who try modifying aggressive dogs don't try to "dominate" them into submission. Everybody agrees that would be a disaster. Imagine training a wolf by dominating it. Quick way to get killed. It is a mistake to think that because dogs are descended from wolves, they behave like wolves.[/quote] This is my favorite part. I've never agreed with using wolf pack rules and applying them to dogs. Dogs are nothing like wolves and most of our pets have never lived in any sort of wolf pack. I'm am not my dog's "Alpha" anything. He has no idea what that means anyway.[/quote] Actually, the people who work with and train wolves HAVE to train them by being alpha. For wolves, pack position is extremely important. If you are working with a wolf pack, you HAVE to be the alpha. Serious dominance challenges in wild packs rarely occur, and serious challenges on an alpha wolf are even rarer. If you let a wolf be YOUR alpha, it could be very dangerous trying to reclaim alpha position, and dangerous to stay submissive because alpha wolves often correct submissive wolves through methods that could draw blood on a fragile human. People who I know who work with wolves who have become dominant over humans are often forced to never go into the pen with that wolf ever again because of the potential danger of the wolf exhibiting dominant behaviors towards the humans. I do not think wolf-pack training methods should be completely thrown out though when working with dogs. Alpha roles and other physical dominances like that are not often used on adult dogs, but ARE used on young and particularly rebellious puppies, in both wolves AND dogs. Dogs and wolves speak the same basic canine language, and even if dogs don't live in wolf packs, they will still see the others around them as either alpha or submissive. Canines DO NOT live in a democracy, treating them as equals can be dangerous, especially if you are working with an alpha-personality dog. I have seen many, MANY cases where owners try to treat the dogs as equals and let them do whatever they want, this is the same thing as telling the dog that you are not willing to take the alpha position, and therefore they should fill it in. The situation turns dangerous when the dog begins trying to "correct" the owner for exhibiting "bad" behavior. Cassie, if your dogs see you as the provider, then they see you as alpha, whether you like it or not :wink: The first thing a person learns when dealing with an alpha dog is to make that dog think of them as the provider. By letting your dog know that you are the source of all good things, you are setting yourself up as alpha. If you let a dog get whatever they wanted, whenever THEY wanted it, then you would be setting THEM up as alpha. Some dogs are submissive no matter what you do, others may have their canine instincts so watered down, that it is difficult to tell that they live by any sort of pack rules, but there will always be some degree of wolf pack mentality in a dog. No, this does not mean that we should start alpha rolling our dogs for every mistake, trying to train them entirely by dominance, or trying to take back our alpha position by challenging a dog, but that does not change the fact that wolves and dogs are still canines, and no matter what dog you are working with, they will STILL either view you as their dominant or submissive "pack mate", NOT an equal, that would be going against all that we know to be true in canine behavior. As for correcting a dog by challenging it directly, this would be dangerous even for a wolf in a wolf pack. Today’s training methods teach us to fix alpha problems in a dog not by challenging it for alpha status, but by asserting our alpha status through non-confrontational, positive methods. Either way, it is STILL showing the dog that we are alpha! You should never try to train a dog entirely through dominating it, possitive reanforcement is the best way to train most dogs, but dominance as a training method can and should still be used. Dog puppies, for instance, can be just like little kids, they can be brats and just like with a kid, being nice won't always work. With pupies, you sometimes HAVE to use wolf-pack based training through dominance. Even mother dogs will discipline their puppies through dominant behaviors such as scruff shakes and muzzle holds, depending on how badly the puppy was behaving. Once again, dogs DO maintain SOME wolf-pack mentality (even if they don't all live in a strict and clearly visible pack structure), and dogs do not look at humans as equals! If they DID look at humans as equals, then people wouldn't have problems with dominant dogs. I have seen numerous times on this list and others, people coming foreword for help when their dog growls at them when they approach it while it is sitting on the owners couch, or they ask what it means when their female dog humps their male dog, or one of their dogs at the dog park keeps "picking on" other dogs. These are all cases of normal dogs showing wolf pack structure mentality, to deny that dogs no longer live in any sort of pack hierarchy would be foolish, as anywhere you look you can find evidence AGAINST this. ~Seij

If a person brings a dog to a dog part that is aggressive towards other dogs, it should deffinately be kept on a leash. How stupid is this person? No way would I let my dog loose if I thought it was going to get even the least bit aggressive with another dog even if unprovoked! ~Seij

IMO, the dogs themselves were not at fault. Some dogs are so aggressive towards other dogs that they will do anything to get to that other dog, even if it means attacking a human. OR, the dog could have been so worked up that it just went after whatever was in its way without even contemplating that it was a human. My dog has tried to chew through BARBED WIRE to get at other dogs! The owner of the pits should not have had had them out together, and should have had them on a better leash. The owner of the small dog is not to blame, I would have done the same as him to protect my dog if it was that small. ~Seij

I do not know what mix your dog was, but even if you were able to mix those same dog breeds again, the puppies would not act the same as your dog. It is near impossible to mix two dogs of totaly different breeds and know what the puppies will act like. They are mixes. Mutts. Their temperment can vary greatly and even cloning could not recreate an individual dog's temperment. ~Seij

What sort of containment do you have for a husky/mal? These guys aren't just hyper for a few years, they are hyper for life. They were bred to run and roam, and that's just what they'll do without good containment to keep them in. They can climb a fence like a cat (at least huskies can) and they love to 'talk' and howl. Be sure your parents are well educated on the temperment and keeping of a northern breed before getting one. They are very independant dogs, so don't expect it to grow up acting like a carbon-copy of Lassie. ~Seij

You could adopt one. I adopted my Husky mix for only $100 and she came spayed and UTD on shots. Be careful when getting a husky or malamute. They are high energy, they will need a fenced in yard because they like to roam. They can also be good escape artists, so it will have to be a tall fence (I would suggest a fence that is at LEAST 6', you may even want to put lean-ins on top because nothern breeds can climb fences too), and maybe even make the fence dig proof, depending on how much of an escape artist the pup grows up to be (my cousins has a husky that ATE through the fence!). They often times do not make good house pets either. If you do not have a fenced in yard, a secure kennel will do, but the dog will have to be walked frequently. Huskies/mals are also known for having high prey drive and they can be difficult to train (they are very stubborn, they won't listen to a command unless they want to). They need a lot of socialization and they really aren't for someone who is just a beginning dog owner. I would suggest doing some research on the breed before getting one. They can be very difficult dogs to keep. ~Seij

Someone I met bought a $2,500 French Mastiff pup ("VERY RARE") from a petstore. The pups were sold to the petstore because the breeder could not sell them himself, as "no one in their right mind would buy a dog for that much" (yet she did? :-? ). Are French Mastiffs really as rare as she says they are? ~Seij

I agree that only well socialized and behaved dogs should be taken to public places like Petsmart, but IMO, even a socialized dog can get scared if some kid runs up to it banging a frisbee on the ground. Another important thing to remember is that dogs hear a lot better than we do. A frisbee banging on the ground might sound as loud as gunshots to a dog. I know a lot of good, stable dogs that would be spooked by such loud and sudden noises. ~Seij

[quote name='MajiesMom']To us that is certainly abuse but I'm pretty sure there is nothing you can really do about it if the owner provides food and water to the dog. (I think thats how the law goes in my neck of the woods anyway.) [/quote] I will have to agree on this. As long as the dog has food, water, and a clean living space, it isn't considered abuse, unless the local law specifically states that dogs must have XXX amount of room, and this dog's cage space was less that specified amount. One dog I was reading about yesterday had been kept on a chain on the back porch for seven entire years. Unless the dog was deprived of food or water though, this treatment was not considered abuse according to local law. ~Seij

Would a GSD be permitted in the campground if it was a police officer's dog? What if one of these breeds was being used by a person as a service dog? Would they be permitted? [quote] Exotic animals and dogs of the following breeds are not permitted: Doberman, Rottweiler, Boxer, Mastiff, German Shepherd, Airedale, Chow, Staffordshire, Pit Bull and any mixed breed of the above. [/quote] So basicaly every dog is banned except little dogs, goldens, labs, collies, bird dogs, and some of the more obscure breeds? Instead of having a banned breed list, it would be eisier if they just had a list of permitted breeds. ~Seij

No, she doesn't work for them. Your right, it won't make much of a difference anymore, but it still annoys me. I wish I could've gotten to the dog before it was PTS. ~Seij