Seijun

So animal and child abuse is no longer called "animal abuse" or "child abuse," it is called "failure to thrive"!? :x That's an awful nice way of stating things... :roll: ~Seij

[quote][quote]Quote: the dog would have had to of bitten the child for there to be so much blood [/quote] Where does it say there was a lot of blood?..all it says is punture wounds...and blood on kitchen lino spreads out and looks like more than it is..and to be honest theres not really a huge amount of blood in a baby anyway..if the blood loss was huge then the baby would have died... [/quote] In several other articles I read, it mentioned there being a lot of blood everywhere, it made it sound as though the child had been ripped half to pieces. :-? In the end though, it doesn't matter a great deal I guess, since the dog has been PTS anyway and the child is safe. A friend of mine BTW is working on getting the dog reclassified as a GSD(mix) as the owners had originally labeled it. Apparently the head of animal control decided it was part wolf because it howled :roll: . ~Seij

I know, the difference with labs though have been bred to retrieve kills, but not mutilate the prey or play with it (although it can't be said of all labs). Many dogs have prey drive that has been modified specificaly for different jobs, such as herding or guarding, or for hunting only one type of animal, like in bird dogs. Others have very low prey drive which is shown ONLY in play. There a lot of dogs though which have prey drive which hasn't been modified. Huskies, Malamutes and GSD's in particular are more likely to have the more 'primitive' sort of prey drive seen in wolves, which is not modified for just one specific type of job, but instead spans over anything that might be considered 'huntable', not just one animal, such as birds or racoons. Of course, this can't be said of all dogs of those breeds either, but a lot of dogs with high prey drive will and do play with there catches like a cat will. And of course, just because a dog plays with a squeaky toy does not mean it will be a hunter, but it is interesting to see how toys have been modified to mimic injured prey to elicit play behavior in dogs (even if that is not what people had in mind when they designed toys to squeak). ~Seij

Kiwi, the dog would have had to of bitten the child for there to be so much blood, I think it is unlikely that the dog was trying to be gentle (although it’s not impossible). Even the biggest and most powerful of dogs can pick up a child without a scratch if it wants to. How does a dog 'accidentally' put a child in critical condition just by picking it up and carrying it around? One other thing I just thought of, in regards to dogs 'playing' with their prey. Many dog toys are built to squeak when squeezed. The noise is designed to elicit predatory play behavior in dogs, in exactly the same way a dog's predatory play behavior is triggered when a prey item, such as a mouse, squeals, squeaks, or screams. A dog playing with a squeaky toy and a dog playing with a mouse are exactly the same; both are exhibiting predatory behavior in the form of play, which is triggered by the noise of injured or frightened prey. ~Seij

[quote name='Matty']Holy Dog!! If you look at the picture of the white wolf in the picture in this site the simularities are amazing :o [url]http://www.2lizards.com/arctic-wolf/[/url][/quote] Actually, there are a lot of differences between the two. (pure white and pure black GSD's always appear more wolfish, unfortunately) The white shepherd/wolfdog/whatever you want to call it: Large pointed ears short legs pure white fur pink nose shorter muzzle short fur long tail wide chest Arctic wolf: Small, rounded ears long legs grizzled white fur with a dark undercoat, copper coloring on muzzle black nose long muzzle longer fur shorter tail narrow chest Here are some white GSD's that look almost identical to the dog that attacked the kid (BTW, the dog was most likely playing with the child like a cat plays with a mouse. My dog catches voles and plays with them, tossing them over her head then pouncing on them, and mutilating them quite badly in the process. The creatures die relatively quick due to being bitten and nipped repeatedly during this 'play'. It is sad that the dog should have to die for displaying natural instincts.) [url]http://www.gsrt.net/WhiteMurphy.jpg[/url] [url]http://home.global.co.za/~sadtc/SADTCPics/SASHA_TIGHT.jpg[/url] [url]http://web.mawebcenters.com/evanssecurity/images/Mvc-084s.jpg[/url] [url]http://www.shepherdrescue.org/pages/frosty.html[/url] [url]http://www.shepherdrescue.org/pages/frosty2.html[/url] ~Seij

Prior to Aug 4, all the stories just said it was a white german shepherd, (some said white german shpherd/chow/malamute mix), but AFTER Aug 3, that apperantly is when the "authorities determined" it was part wolf. I can only see white German Shepherd. I am glad that the kid is safe though, stupid parents.. The kid is 2 weeks old, not many dogs that I know of would realize that a 2-week old is an actual human, and not just a really fun squeeky toy. Sure, a lot of dogs are good with kids, but no way would I leave a 2-week old unattended with a dog, even a small one. ~Seij

If that's part wolf, then my dog is half fish. That isn't a wolfdog, and if it is, there is barely even enough walf in it to count as a wolfdog! The pink nose, pure white color, and abvious GSD looks are dead giveaways that this animal has little, if any wolf. *sigh* Just another reason why I HATE it when people mislabel dogs as wolfdogs! ~Seij

Here's my horribly vicious dog... [img]http://a.1asphost.com/Seijun/rowr.JPG[/img] ~Seij

I didn't watch it, but according to others who did, it is almost nothing but breed bashing. Naturally, everyone who watches it will be inclined to think that pressas, pitts, rotts, and wolfdogs are all horribly vicious killers. There was once a show I used to watch called "When Good Pets Go Bad", it was almost entirely full of pitt bull and rottie attacks. It makes me sick thinking of how many dogs must suffer because of what media hype does to their name. ~Seij

When I take my dog out for walks, we occasionaly pass this one woman who will always look over at my dog and glare. I don't know if she just doesn't like my dog or if she's always in a bad mood anyway. :-? ~Seij

I have no idea what they plan to do with them. Right now they just have that "whatever happens we can handle it" sort of attitude. ~Seij

I am really a very shy person in public, so I don't talk to them much, just listen. I had told them they should get her spayed because a 6yr old dog shouldn't be bred anyway. They told me they weren't going to breed her, but they did. They are thrilled with the puppies, as is everyone who meets them. I doubt the pet overpopulation problem is one they are concerned about. People dump unwanted dog and cats back here all the time, it's not as if they don't know there are pets out there needing homes. They seem to have turned a blind eye to the problem, IMO. They are like a lot of people-they have a dog they really like, so they want to breed the dog and get puppies. They figure they will take care of the puppies fine and it won't be anyone elses problem, therefore it somehow doesn't contribute to pet overpopulation. :x ~Seij

I'm not sure if it was this board that I posted about this on a few months back.. But my neighbors had this little male Shih Tzu that they loved, so, naturally, the wanted to BREED him and get puppies! :roll: So they go to a breeder and buy a 6 month old female. They take it to a groomer and discover that it is actually 6 YEARS old. What happened seems very obvious to me: they bought from a puppy mill that was getting rid of their old breeders by selling them to 'easy targets' as puppies. Well, I didn't think they would breed a 6 year old dog, and certainly not one that had spent its entire life as a breeder-but I guess I was wrong, because now she has puppies. I am so mad right now, are they that stupid!? Did they not realize that this dog most likely came from a puppy mill and had been forced to breed her entire life?? :x Did they not have the heart to give this poor old girl a break?? IMO, they're as bad as the puppy millers themselves! (And naturally, they never stopped to think about what they are going to DO with the puppies once they begin to grow up and loose their cuteness). ~Seij

There are not a LOT of deer here, but there are enough that hitting one isn't uncommon. I live in a rural area though, so I guess I don't count :oops: ~Seij

Canis erectus, this is OT, but what kind of dog is that in your sig (the one on the right)? ~Seij

Sometimes it depends on the dog's pain tollerance. Some dogs just don't care or notice unless the collar is set high. Some dogs are more sensitive and work well with a lower setting. It might also depend on the brand of collar you use. The shock should not be extremely painful for a dog though. It should be more of an 'uncomfortable' sort of pain, more like a mild bee sting. ~Seij

StarFox, I agree with you. Yes, the dogs he trains are 'hard' dogs, that need a firm trainer to properly train as a fighting dog, but that does not mean you should be able to outright abuse the dog. I don't care what problem the dog has, hitting it with a shovel and choking are NOT proper training methods. In some of his advise collums he advises people to use this choking method-a method that if done by an inexperienced person could kill the dog. Here are two quotes from his site: [quote]QUESTION: I have had German Shepherds all my life. My dogs are my companions and I take them almost everywhere with me. I would like to find a GS that is less likely to show male dominance. I travel the California coast with windsurfing and other dogs are on the beach (mostly labs) and I have to keep my dog away from the other dogs. Is it possible to choose a dog as a pup and it be less likely to show this tendency and yet not be a timid animal? Thank you, Gary Fradkin ANSWER: It’s not possible to pick a puppy and know that it will not be dog aggressive - no matter what dog therapists say or vets say or dog pchycologists say. It cannot be done. I think that some dogs are genetically predisposed to dog aggression. But for every one of those, I think there are 10 to 15 animals that are dog aggressive because they have had ONE BAD EXPERIENCE. It only takes having the --I have a Potty Mouth-- scared out of a dog one time (by another dog) for it to become dog aggressive. As crummy as this comparison is, it is an accurate one. If a woman is raped she is permanently scarred for life. It is exactly the same with puppies or young adults that are attacked by other dogs. These pups will forever be dog aggressive. I also think the flip side to this coin is if handlers would put there foot down (FIRMLY) from day one on pups that become aggressive to other dogs, they would be able to eliminate or at least control the problem. The dog must know that if I am aggressive to other dogs my owner is going to get 20 times more aggressive with me because HE DOES NOT LIKE IT. The problem is that most people cannot correct a dog hard enough to make their dog think like this. So in my opinion dog aggression is 99% a handler problem. This means handlers propagate it by not correcting their dogs firmly enough. The fact is that one good correction is worth 1000 nagging corrections - most owners are naggers. I have owned some nasty dogs in my life. I own a male right now that is as bad as anything I have ever seen - probably worse than anything most people will ever see in their life (I bought him when he was 5 years old). This dog will viscously try and attack another dog through a fence when I let him out of the kennel. This is going to blow the minds of the Goody-two-shoes and the phooo phooo Halty and Clicker people that read my web site - but I have stopped this dog’s fence fighting. It took three 30 second training sessions. I simply told him “NO” and hit him over the head with a kennel shovel. The reason it took three sessions was because I did not know how thick this dog’s head was - I really had to whack him hard on the third session to get his attention. Now he knows that there are consequences to fence fighting. I will also say that I took a chance when I hit this dog with a shovel that he would turn that aggression towards me and attack me. I know that no dog is ever going to get me when I have a shovel in my hands - that is probably not the case with most people. But then most people would never own this dog. The next step on the this dog would be to muzzle him, put him on a leash, get the shovel out so he could see it and let him out with a bitch that is not dog aggressive. This may take a few sessions with different dogs. [/quote] [quote]QUESTION: I am writing to you about our 11 yr. old Lhasa Apso, Max. I have had him since he was 8-9wks old. As a puppy, he seemed to be afraid of strangers or anyone who tried to pet or touch him. He would scream and back away. I tried to socialize him, when people would come in that would play with him & he finally started coming out of his shell. However, about a year later he started biting the groomer & they informed me they wouldn't have him back. I had a dog trainer come into our home & work with him after I married. He was even worse w/my husband. The training worked a little, as I was able to at least bathe him, as long as I kept him on a leash. I can't clean his ears or eyes without him snapping. I have never been able to just pick him up and pet him. When we have people over they can't pet him or he will bite - he seems like he will be friendly and then he bites. I cannot take him to the vet anymore for shots or grooming unless they give him a sedative to put him out. My husband usually is the one who walks him, due to our work schedules. However, he has now bitten my husband twice in the past two weeks, the last being a puncture wound. Max didn't growl or snarl either time. My vet has suggested putting him down. Do you have any suggestions that may help? Thank you for your help. Teresa Meinert ANSWER: Putting him down or not putting him down depends on your willingness to correct this dog. When a dog gets to this stage (11 years of bad training and bad behavior) it's almost too late for most people to deal with. There is a solution but its not pretty - but it does work. It involves hanging the dog until it almost passes out when he bites. There is no pain - you use the dominant dog collar that I sell - it just takes the dogs air away. Dogs learn very quickly that being a DINK is unacceptable. The problem is that people do not have the heart to do this properly. In which case you have to kill the dog. That's the way to look at this - do I kill him or do I hang him until he shits and pisses himself to teach him that he cannot bite. Dogs do learn respect. There is more of a protocol for this but I do not want to go into more detail at this time. The dog should NEVER be around strangers. It should be in a dog crate when visitors come over.[/quote] As for the wolf hybrid stuff, I don't really care if you are against breeding them, or if you don't think they should exist or whatever, but this guy insists that they are all viceous kid-killers, and he thinks all existing wolfdogs should be PTS. If you try to give him any POSSITIVE information regarding wolfdogs, he will just cuss you out. He thinks anyone who owns one is an idiot, and anyone who brreds them is a crimminal. :( That is BSL, IMO, and I don't support anyone who support BSL. Bottom line is, this isn't the sort of guy who should be giving advice to average people. Yes, training attack dogs is hard and difficult work, and can require 'hard' training methods, but people come to him on advice for fear biting, dog/dog aggression, and other types of problems that many average dog owners face. He advises them as if their dog is some big attack dog or something. Geeze, I mean that one person had an 11yr old LHASA APSO! That's hardly the size (or age) of dog that the choking method should be used on, especially if it is an already fearful dog! I respect his ability as a trainer, but I do not like people who think that "no pain, no gain" also applies to dog training methods. ~Seij

[quote]I'm sure it's the same person. I'm not part of Leerburg, but I've seen her mention it on the board I know her from. [/quote] Leerburg's crazy. He is a big advocate of a dog training method that involves choking the dog as a means of correction ('choking' as in holding the dog up by its leash until it is ready to pass out). In one part of his website, he mentions training one of his dogs to not be dog/dog aggressive by beating it in the head with a shovel. He also support BSL against wolfdogs and pit bulls. ~Seij

[quote name='MajiesMom']Is it the same person that posted on the Leerburg BB yesterday, she's going to foster a hound/Dobie X. She sounds so clueless.[/quote] Leerburg BB? You mean "Leerburg" as in the guy "Ed Frawley"?? I certainly hope she hasn't gone to [i]him[/i] for help! :o :x I think shocks and prongs should only be used as a last resort, and only on certain dogs. Some dogs do not respong well at ALL to physical punishment such as with shock collors. On others it does work well, but I say last resort since dogs who have been trained with shock collars tend to disobey commands when they don't have the collar on. BTW, what is clicker training? I have heard it mentioned a lot, but I don't know what it is :oops: ~Seij

Ok, I get what you're saying Anyway, I HATE seeing these new wolf crosses. Huskies, Mals, and GSD's are the traditional dogs used for wolf crossings. Lately though their have been many supposed pit bull, rottie, and other mixes, and you know whoever is breeding them is doing it to try creating some big, "ultimate fighting dog" sort of thing, which isn't what the wolfcross world needs right now. I wouldn't mind so much if they were experimenting with an easier breed crossing, like golden retriever/wolf crosses or something. Wolves, huskies, and mals all have high prey drive, an instinct to roam, are better escape artists, and are for more advanced dog owners. Mix them together, and you will almost always get a cross that can't be owned by 'average' or first time dog owners, because they wouldn't even be able to handle a pure husky or malamute, let alone a wolf/mal, wolf/husky cross. On the other hand, retrievers and the more mellow breeds, mixed with a wolf, might be easier for average dog owners to handle, because the wolf intensity would get 'tamed' down much faster than if you mixed an already hard to handle breed in with the wolf. Such mixings will usually create very 'unwolfish' looking animals though, so I doubt they would be very popular. When people want a wolf/dog cross they are usually looking for something that looks like a wolf. If your going to try creating new wolf crosses, it should be done to create and easier-to-handle wolfdog, not a fighting one! (although personaly, wolfdog rescue is so overrun right now it would be nice if ALL wolfdog breeding stopped for a while) Grrr.... :evil: ~Seij

[quote]The only positive thing about this is that many of the so-called wolf hybrids do not have any wolf in them at all.[/quote] Yeah, I guess that's good, but misrepresentation does more harm than good. Everytime a wolfdog bites or attacks someone the wolf part gets blamed. More than half the time, the dog wasn't part wolf anyway. Sometimes people get a dog who they think is a pure wolf or half wolf or whatever, and it is very easy to care for because it is actually pure dog, the owners just don't know it, so they go out telling everyone to get a wolf or wolfdog because they think they are so easy to take care of. One lady I saw had a rottie mix that she thought was 99% wolf. She bragged about what a wonderful guard dog and therapy dog it was, and she wouldn't believe us when we told her it wasn't 99% wolf. In states where wolfdogs are illegal, there are always husky and mal mixes getting PTS because they are sold as wolfdogs, even though most of the time they're not. ~Seij

[quote]I think they are dangerous and can be more so dangerous as they "think" differently from dogs. [/quote] Why do you think they are dangerous? I am confused by what you say when you say they think differently. ~Seij

I think it is acceptable to have a dog who is aggressive to other dogs as long as that person has control over their dog. After all, we can't expect for ourselves, as sophisticated and advanced as we are, to always get along with one another, so how can we expect a dog to always get along with other dogs? ~Seij

Yes, the fact that there is an unneutered male around DEFINATELY increases the chances of having aggression between females. People who own wolf hybrids who have a lot of wolf in them almost never keep two females and a male together because it will almost guarantee that the females will begin fighting sooner or later. I am not sure if also neutering the male rottie would help any, but spaying Patti could calm her down some. BTW, is 5 yrs too old for spaying? All my dogs were spayed before 3 years old, so I wouldn't know. ~Seij

IMHO, you should get Patti spayed before you try rehoming her. Spaying could be enough to settle her down enough to where she would leave Free alone, or it might be that Patti dislikes Free to the point where spaying would do nothing. It is worth a try though. ~Seij