TDG

yep, trial and error is right. :) there are different types of omega 3s as well as omega 6s, and as you can see from the listing on that page, there are active and inactive sources of both. both are important for the body and need to be present in a specific ratio. excess amounts of omega 6s are harmful (see side bar), that's why it is so important to increase the content of omega 3s in the diet. a normal, balanced diet will usually have enough omega 6s in it already, as they are very common in a variety of foods. it's the omega 3's that are very limited. to confuse you even more, here's a list of all of them [url]http://www.nutritiondata.com/fatty-acids.html[/url] - the omega 6s contain a n-6 and the omega 3s a n-3. :) nutrition is so much fun! lol as for the MSM - one very, very important note: make sure you get medical grade, not industrial grade. if in doubt, ask the manufacturer. it is best used with - b complex vitamins, so look into nutritional yeast ([b]not[/b] brewer's yeast), which is a great source for that and - glucosamine hydrochloride, a compound found in cartilage. if you can, find this as a liquid supplement, tablets and powders aren't nearly as effective because they aren't absorbed well by the body. daily doses depend on the content strength of the supplement, for a 70 lb dog i'd say half the human dose, and scale it down from there.

i think you are doing excellent. :) and obviously the benefits of your supplement regimen are showing too. both chicken soup and canidae are good quality foods, i don't think you can go wrong with either one. just see which one your dog (or dogs) prefer and go from there. overall the fish oil is the better choice, but it really comes down to if your dog can utilize the flax oil. it depends on the enzymes a dog produces or lacks, see here: [url]http://www.mordanna.com/dogfood/index.php?page=efas[/url] the wellness supplement looks good too. :)

my cats eat innova and are doing extremely well on it. it's still baffling for me how 5 large cats can maintain weight on 2 cups a day divided up between them all, but it's all they need. 3-4 times a week i supplement with some raw meat, canned sardines or canned food, but the stubborn critters just consider those things a snack, but not a meal. my dog has eaten innova, canidae, wellness lamb and california natural with good results, but due to many concerns i have moved away almost entirely from commercial food. he now eats a diet that is made up of about 50% raw meaty bones, and the other half spans from raw meat mince with veggies to cooked meals including various grains to eggs, dairy products (especially cultured yogurt and cottage cheese) and last but not least a variety of healthy leftovers of human meals. i still do feed some kibble so he will still accept it when staying with friends or on road trips, but that is just a very minor part. 4 pounds of kibble last us about 6 weeks these days (my dog weighs 22 pounds).

um, i think this thread is kind of obsolete with the new developments? [url]http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=13757[/url]

send a message. [url]http://www.govmail.ca.gov[/url] if it hadn't been for hayden, i wouldn't have my lovely dog now either!

cow's milk is not automatically going to cause pancreatitis or colitis. many dogs can tolerate it just fine. however, just like humans, dogs can be lactose intolerant, i.e. don't produce any or only insufficient amounts of lactase, the milk-digesting enzyme. it is better to use fermented dairy products such as cottage cheese or yogurt. you can dilute both with filtered water to a fluid consistency if you like. yogurt is easily mixed with water just with a spoon or fork, but cottage cheese needs to go in the blender. :)

on the off chance you meant to say she has blood in her urine, get her to a vet, and [b]pronto[/b].

you will automatically get a higher fat content if you use the chicken with skin and the fat that is attached. i recommend using an entire chicken to prepare your recipes for example, instead of buying chicken pieces, and don't trim fat off meat you use for making dog food. you can also just add a little more oil, i highly recommend wheat germ oil for its high natural vitamin E content, and flax seed oil (cold pressed only). don't use hydrogenated oils, they are not healthy. :)

see if [url=http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/vaginitis_puppy_acne_demodectic_mange.htm]this[/url] is of any help. :)

don't worry about the carbs too much. they aren't all that important in a dog's diet, except for those that are exercised very heavily, or nursing bitches. protein and fat is absolutely critical for a dog's health. you can actually harm a dog by withholding protein and fat, but as long as you feed a large enough amount, missing carbs aren't an issue at all. if you still feel your diet is lacking, just split up ingredients and feed different meals. for example oatmeal with scrambled egg or cottage cheese in the morning and meat or fish with veggies in the evening.

yup, i think you got it now. :D and since it is all mixed, yes, you do have the same percentage of protein and fat even if you divide it up - after all you are dividing it evenly, not just taking out the meat or fat. imagine making chocolate milk - a pitcher full of milk plus a few scoops of cocoa and sugar make up the entire recipe, but no matter into how many glasses you pour it when it's all mixed, each glass will have roughly the same amount of milk, cocoa and sugar if you blended it all well enough. for a 55 lb dog you might be a little on the low end with 737 calories per day tho. my 22 lb dog needs roughly 650 kcal per day to maintain weight with moderate exercise. if you feed kibble right now, go by the caloric amount the daily kibble ration you feed has, and adjust from there. i've done a lot of studying on nutrition the past 4 years and think i've learned quite a lot. maybe someday i'll be able to go back to school and make something "official" out of it. for now i'm happy to be able to care for my pets better and help other people now and then. :)

getting there. :) small hint: look at the analysis of your recipe on the 100g basis. that's the easiest way to determine your protein content, because the amount in grams is exactly the amount in per cent ("per cent" means "per 100"). so with your current recipe you are at 17% protein and 5% fat. both could still use a little boosting, especially the fat, to prevent skin and coat issues, but i think overall you caught on. minerals: the 1,800 mg of ca in egg shell powder is per teaspoon, not per tablespoon. if i said otherwise in previous posts somewhere i apologize. see also pitcairn's book, page 38. the entire recipe as listed has 668mg calcium and 2,635mg phosphorus. if you aim for a ratio of 1.2:1, you need a total of 2,635 x 1.2 = 3,162 mg calcium. 668mg are already present, so you need to add 3,162 - 668 = 2,494 mg or just a little over 1 1/3 teaspoons. and yes, the healthy powder is balanced in itself, so you can add it as desired.

it's just basic math. :) take the entire amount, divide it by 100 and multiply the result by x, that way you get x percent. 20 grams protein of 100 grams total weight = 20% 100 grams of 500 grams = 20% 150 grams of 750 grams = 20% keep in mind this is just an example. you will have to add up the protein, fat and carbohydrate content of the entire recipe to check it out, since not only meat contains protein and fat. the percentages you pick depend very much on your individual dog. as you see in pitcairn's book, it is even possible to feed a dog a vegetarian diet, as long as appropriate amounts of nutrients are present.

[quote name='pitbulletta']when I was checking [b]my[/b] recipe it was 56 for protein on that website you gave me..so that's like twice as much..how is that not enough?[/quote] looks like you fell exactly for the issue i told you to watch out for in one of my earlier posts. lol :) re-read the first 2 paragraphs of my message posted on Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:38 pm. you looked at the little green/red/blue color-coded pyramid graphic , right? well, that shows the distribution of calories in the food item or recipe, but it doesn't tell you [b]how much[/b] protein, fat or carbs are actually present in the food. if you look at the [url=http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s04sb.html]details[/url] for the ground beef, you see that 29% of its [b]caloric content[/b] originates from protein, 71 from fat and 0 from carbohydrates. but if you look at the nutrition facts panel, you see that 100g of ground beef only contain 17g protein. that's 17% on an "as fed" basis, meaning in a form it will actually be fed to your dog. this means that if you are aiming for 22% (which for me personally is still too low, i prefer at least around 30%), your 100g serving of ground beef still lacks 5% protein. now have a look at [url=http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s00mq.html]this[/url]. turkey necks are a major part of my dog's diet. they have a nice meat-to-bone ratio, are fairly cheap and my dog does well on turkey meat. the caloric distribution is 64% from protein and 36% from fat, but 100g of the meat (sadly bone is not included in this nutrition panel) only contain 20g protein and 5g fat. i hope this clarifies it! :)

[quote name='courtnek']the dogs got a smaller level of kibble then usual[/quote] that means you don't feed a home made diet exclusively tho, so you still have somewhat of a balance in there that isn't present as soon as someone feeds [i]nothing but[/i] homemade food, regardless if it's raw or cooked. for example, take the concentration of different food types into consideration. a pound of dry dog food consists of about 85-90% dry matter, a pound of roasted chicken meat is only about 32% dry matter, fruits, veggies and prepared grains even less. feeding at least some fresh food in addition to kibble is always a good idea tho, it should just be within reason and no junk food. :)

carol, not necessarily. in livestock for example F1 crosses of two breeds are referred to as hybrids. these are always produced from purebred parents tho, as the qualities of the hybrid are desired but they decline significantly if you continue interbreeding them. that's just semantics tho. people breeding such "designer mutts" need a more elegant expression than "mixed breed", "mutt" or whatever to cash in, after all who would pay ridiculous amounts of money for something that's just referred to as a mix? if it weren't so sad, it would actually be funny. you could buy "whatever" mixes from the shelter, stick a fancy label on them and make a boatload of money if you just know how to advertise right and fool people into buying something they think is new and better than anything else. *sigh*

you are quite welcome. :) i know it's hard to find a footing to start out on, but over time you will learn more about nutrition and become more comfortable. [quote name='pitbulletta'] Here's an example of one of my own (I used that website you gave me TDG, as a guide for the mineral requirements)... 80% lean ground beef - 150 grams brocolli - 100 grams brussel sprouts - 100 grams carrots - 100 grams parsley - 100 grams sweet potatoe - 200 grams 1 and 1/4 teaspoon of bone meal and recommended daily supplements from dr.pitcairn's book This is enough for a 55 lb dog for one day...the only thing is that it contains a bit too much carbs and TOO much proteins..so I can never really even that out no matter how much I try... I've already got like 5 recipes made up and its always a bit off in those areas..also...my calorie total is always UNDER 700 which is odd...that's a bit low for a pit bull's intake so I dunno..but if I add more stuff than the protein and carbs are WAY too high...if I take stuff out then the calorie intake is TOO low..I'll probably never understand that but I think I'm getting the hang of it more at least[/quote] there is one huge flaw in that recipe. it contains [b]way[/b] too many vegetables. that is not enough protein for feeding a dog and keeping him healthy. vegetables and fruits are a nice addition, but they should [b]not[/b] make up the main part of your recipe. dogs need protein and fat before anything else to stay healthy, you can not apply human dietary requirements to them. if you think the regular recipes in pitcairn's book are too grain heavy, look at the ones listed on page 61 and 62. they are labeled as "growth" diets but you can still feed them to an adult dog. just pay attention to the caloric content, (listed under the recipes) and adjust rations accordingly. i have a very active 22 lb dog who needs about 650 kcal per day to maintain weight under average conditions and up to 900 kcal per day when he is heavily exercised, running 8-10 miles on a daily basis.

[quote name='pitbulletta']Thank you again TDG... I'll be looking around to see if I can find any more besides the one I booked an appointment with..I also found this website..its EXACTLY what I am looking for but I don't know whether I should trust it or not [url]http://www.petdiets.com/[/url] <--- is more than 90 bux even GAH :o have you ever heard of it before? Anyone else have any suggestions that lives in the Toronto area (nothing TOO expensive please I'm a student I have no money :oops: )[/quote] you are quite welcome. :) take it step by step and day by day, over time you will learn more and become more comfortable about feeding your dog. i started out by adding a tablespoon or two of cooked meat and veggies to my dog's kibble and have progressed to feeding about 75% raw in total. the remaining 25% are cooked items, leftovers, a favorite brand of dog biscuits, training treats and a little bit of holistic kibble mixed with yogurt as a "cereal style" meal in the morning. as for [url]http://www.petdiets.com[/url] - i do not think it is a particularly trustworthy site. some of their information has massive flaws and is quite biased towards commercial products.

[quote]So you're saying that its ok to give 2 tablespoons of healthy powder to each recipe and I shouldn't really worry about access calcium if I'm not feeding bones at all?[/quote] you can either add the healthy powder as the recipe tells you, or feed it separately. 1-2 teaspoons to a small dog, 2-3 teaspoons for medium sized dogs and 1-2 tablespoons for a large dog. however, the healthy powder is [b]not[/b] a calcium supplement. it has just enough calcium in it to make up for the phosphorus content of the yeast and lecthin. so you still do need a way to bring sufficient calcium into the diet, regardless whether you feed the healthy powder or not. what i meant about my personal feeding regimen is that my dog gets bones daily, which have a high calcium content, so for me it is not of as much concern to balance boneless meals as meticulously as someone who doesn't feed bones. if you don't feed bones, you need to be on top of this or you risk severe health problems. [quote] When I usually buy a package of meat in the store, it'll come out to rougly 3 cups of meat...so I guess then I should use about 3 or 2.5 cups of veggies/other carbs and 2 tablespoons or the powder (roughly) for example?[/quote] you can add the healthy powder in any reasonable amount. it's just not going to bring any additional calcium into the diet to help you achieve a proper ca/ph ratio. for that you still need egg shell powder, bone meal, calcium citrate or something similar, unless you feed bones in sufficient amounts. [quote]And if I am NOT using bones than what should I consider? I suppose that's when the healthy powder fills in the gaps or should I be looking even further calcium supplements?[/quote] the healthy powder does [b]not[/b] fill the calcium gap. it's there to supply vitamins and trace minerals and other nutrients, but it doesn't add extra calcium. it is only balanced in itself. [quote]I phoned about 7 places today (alot of them vet clinics and holistic food stores) ...and they have NO nutritionalists...they hardly knew what I was talking about...they're like "Oh, you can read the ingredients on the dog food yourself"..I got so ticked I'm like "No sorry this isn't about dog food, I want to feed my animals a natural diet"... and when I was looking in the phonbook, their ads were saying "Yes our clinic does have an animal nutritionalist!"[/quote] there are very, very few veterinary nutritionalists. in most cases the "best" you can find is someone who got an education on animal nutrition sponsored by one of the "big players" of the pet food industry, which is hardly unbiased. if you are truly concerned, you can check out monica segal's site, [url]http://www.monicasegal.com[/url], or check around for a holistic vet with a background in nutrition in your area.

keep in mind that the calculation page gives you only the [i]caloric distribution[/i] of a food in the pyramid graphic, not the actual percentage of nutrients. it's a little misleading, especially since any fat calories stand out so much since every weight unit of fat supplies almost 2.5 times the amount of calories than protein or carbohydrates. also keep in mind that this pyramid graphic doesn't take the moisture content into consideration [i]at all[/i], since water has no calories. so if you took for example a gallon of water and mixed a teaspoon of oil in there, it would display as 100% of the calories originating from fat, but you still have 768 teaspoons of water plus vs. one teaspoon of oil. don't apologize for asking questions, we all need to start somewhere. :) when i formulate a recipe, i like to use meat as 1/2 to 2/3 of the volume and grains (or other carb sources), legumes, veggies and fruit make up the rest. when i use more meat, i combine it with grains that have a lower amount of protein and vice versa. keep in mind that you are feeding a carnivorous animal and not livestock when you combine ingredients. roughly 50% of the diet of my dog is made up of raw meaty bones tho, so i'm personally not too concerned with feeding too little calcium. on the healthy powder: it is [b]not[/b] a calcium supplement, but the recipe balances the powder in itself, so it doesn't use up any extra calcium from the diet.

bones should never be fed cooked, because that's what makes them brittle and causes them to splinter.

you are quite welcome. :) read chapter 3 of pitcairn's book, it will give you recommendations for amounts of vitamins, minerals and so on. if that isn't "definite" enough, you can also refer to earl mindell's book "nutrition & health for dogs", it has exact amounts listed in the specific chapters. i also highly recommend the "healthy powder" pitcairn describes in his book. personally i don't mix it into any recipes but give 2 teaspoons daily with a bit of cultured yogurt on the morning meal.

yep, i made that recipe. it was just a quick example tho, nothing "tried and true". yes it is possible, and actually it's quite simple. let me see if i can [i]explain[/i] it as easily too. to analyze a complete recipe, you first need to "collect" all the ingredients. this you do by doing searches on the main page. there are thousands of ingredients listed, so make sure you pick whatever is closest to what you plan on using. obviously, if you want to calculate the nutrient content of a [i]cooked[/i] meal, you will need to pick cooked ingredients, not raw ones, but select the raw versions of anything you add uncooked. the cooking method isn't quite as important to pick, but keep in mind that braising something for hours will destroy more nutrients than browning it quickly in a pan or steaming it. once you locate your desired ingredient, pick a weight unit that will be simple to use for a recipe. you can enter fractions in the amount field later on if you need to to adjust. then click the "add to pantry" link to save your ingredient for combining into a recipe. do this until you have all your ingredients saved in your pantry. don't forget things like vegetable oil or flax oil or whatever you like to add for appropriate fatty acid balance. once you have all ingredients saved in your pantry, enter the desired amounts to calculate your recipe, enter a name for it and click the "analyze recipe" button. keep in mind that all recommendations on that website are calculated for human use.

[quote name='courtnek'] OK I can read that and understand it. However, my dogs (all of them, over 30 years) have eaten dry packaged food, and done well on it. Both purerebred's, and mixes...[/quote] different dogs, different requirements. i know where you are coming from, i've fed mainly dry food for 22 years and my dogs never had problems either. that doesn't mean that it applies to [i]all[/i] dogs out there tho. :) especially the types that [i]are[/i] genetically predisposed to certain health issues. and to be honest with you, after doing all the research i did, i definitely cut down on kibble to where i'm now only feeding less than 1/4 of the amount i used to feed. the US pet food industry is just not regulated well enough to be entirely trustworthy, and especially certain findings in the past 10 years have been downright scary. also don't forget that many brands were of far better quality before the corporate giants bought them up. last but not least there is no knowing how many dogs (obviously not yours or mine) in the past were euthanized due to poor health or died early because of a poor diet. it hasn't been long yet that the "average joe" invests a lot of money in veterinary care and research has advanced a lot as well. i don't think 20 or 30 years ago you would have seen a person investing thousands of dollars to have a dog diagnosed and treated for kidney disease to give him a few more years. those pets were put to sleep.

pitbulletta, the grains pitcairn includes in the recipes don't only contribute carbohydrates, they also contain a good amount of protein and other nutrients. that is [b]not[/b] the case with vegetables. i'm not saying that veggies don't have a role in feeding a dog, and while small quantities supply vitamins and some other nutrients, they aren't major sources of nutrition. to help you out with an example, i have loaded a very simple recipe into nutritiondata.com, i hope you can access it [url=http://www.nutritiondata.com/nd.php?q=001Turkeyqq0Patties-00p01e9-00p01t1-00p11u7-05k018e-05k10e1-00p01xt-05k00pv]here[/url]. if not, please let me know and i'll see if i can post it differently. as you see when you scroll down to the tables, the whole recipe contains 197 mg of calcium and 1803 mg of phosphorus. to achieve a ratio of 1.2:1, we need a total of 2164 mg calcium in there and only 197 are present. so we need to add 1967 mg, or just a little over 1 teaspoon of egg shell powder.