TDG

you do not need to give a dog heartworm meds in advance at all since they are not really preventives as in that they prevent infestation so it can not happen. sadly there is still no drug that has that kind of capability. all these products do is kill off microfilariae a dog may have gotten infested with. so for example in a dog who gets a heartworm drug every 30 days, what the product does is kill off any microfilariae accummulated since the last dose was given. if there are no microfilariae present, you are essentially pumping pesticides into your dog for no reason. here's a link to a page that compares how long different heartworm products have been on the market and how many adverse reactions (and sadly, deaths) they have caused. choose wisely what you subject your dog to. the newest products are not always the best or safest. [url]http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/moxidectin/comparison2.html[/url]

sarahmyjoy, don't apologize, it's okay. :) and it's not your personal fault either, i did not want to give that impression. it's just a topic i feel very strongly about and i spend a lot of my time and resources trying to help people by teaching them about better ways to care for their pets, and to teach them in how many way the pet industry is suckering in people on a daily basis by providing false information just to make more profit. i hope i don't sound like someone who is all caught up in conspiracy theories, but i have learned a lot about these things in the past 4 years and am forever grateful to my mentors for putting me on the right track. hopefully i'll be able to do that for others as well.

garlic combined with nutritional yeast works pretty well. don't use brewere's yeast tho, it is not as good of quality as nutritional yeast, which is just a brewery industry byproduct. the abundance of B complex vitamins in the yeast and the properties of the garlic work well together to repel insects. and the healthier your dogs and the stronger their immune systems are, the better it will work - so a good diet and overall care is important as well. fleas only spend minimal time on the animal tho, so you should also manage your environment, for example by using diatomaceous earth and herb powders in pet sleeping areas to kill all fleas that are not currently on the animals.

that site is garbage. :( it's totally slanted towards poor quality commercial food, outdated vaccination schedules and so on. i don't appreciate hearing that my dog's health is at risk because i don't get him vaccinated willy-nilly every year and because i don't use a harsh pesticide for heartworm prevention, even tho i live in an area where it is not needed and i do test for heartworm twice a year. i also don't appreciate being told that by feeding a home prepared diet, i'm putting my dog at risk. there are also no [b]real[/b] quality foods listed where it asks " What kind of DRY dog food do you buy REGULARLY?". raw bones are not listed under "What does __ chew on between meals?", the whole page is slanted towards commercial garbage. the site does a great job of perpetuating a lot of facts about dog care that are outdated or were never true to begin with. but that's pretty obvious since it has purina ads plastered allover. :(

hi gunner :) if you want to feed commercial food, you need to know which brands are good and which are bad. i hope [url=http://www.mordanna.com/dogfood]this site on food comparison[/url] is helpful to you in making a decision. stay away from any brands that are sold at grocery stores, drug stores, department stores and mass retailers etc. home prepared diets, regardless if raw or cooked, are definitely a step above all commercial foods [b]if done right[/b]. there are also many suppliers of premade raw foods, such as oma's pride and others. do a google search on "raw food suppliers" or "raw food distributors" and you should get quite a list. as for the vaccinations, many states have moved forward to the modern protocol of requiring rabies only every 3 years and titers (antibody counts) are accepted in lieu of vaccinations as well. do a google search on "jean dodds vaccination protocol" and again you'll find a wealth of information. this site is also interesting: [url]http://www.bullovedbulldogs.com/vaccines.htm[/url] personally i'm going with rabies every 3 years and titers for parvo and distemper and revaccinations only if necessary. lyme and lepto are not endemic in my area, so i feel the vaccines are unnecessary. i also do not vaccinate for kennel cough unless i would be forced to because of a situation that requires boarding. i do not vaccinate for coronavirus either, because corona resides inside the parvo virus and if your dog is protected against parvo, there can be no corona. regardless of what you decide to do, keep in mind that each vaccine is an assault on the immune system and very stressful to a dog. i strongly recommend against "all in one" vaccines, especially rabies should be given separately from any other vaccines with at least a 2-3 week period in between.

i urge everyone who is interested in the topic to have a look at this page: [url]http://www.bullovedbulldogs.com/heartworm.htm[/url]

your best bet for getting the nails shorter is being diligent with dremeling. i've got the same problem with my own dog and never really managed to get his monster claws shorter until i started using the dremel and doing weekly sessions, sometimes even twice weekly. grind off as much as you possibly can each time, this forces the quick to recede because it's sensitive.

absolutely, melanie. it's important to consider different views and file away the best of all of them for personal use. :)

katetsai, they are all excellent foods made from very high quality ingredients. however, wellness has a relatively small amount of meat protein included, only about 30%. innova and canidae have about 50%. since a dog's diet should be meat based, not grain based, that puts wellness at the lower end of the premium foods for me, despite its excellent ingredient quality. california natural is also an excellent brand (made by the same company as innova), but it's designed mostly as an allergy formulation with a very limited ingredient list, so it doesn't have many of the "kitchen sink formulation" ingredients (fruit, veggies, dairy products etc.) that "regular" foods have. it's still a good choice of food, but if people want to feed it and their dogs don't have any food related issues, i always recommend adding small amounts of fresh fruits and veggies and a bit of yogurt or cottage cheese now and then. there is no problem with feeding canned food per se, but if you just want to do it as supplemental feeding, i'd rather recommend using fresh, unprocessed foods such as meat, cottage cheese and whole, raw eggs. it's cheaper and the health benefit is much greater. if anyone is interested in easy to make supplement recipes, feel free to PM me. carol - you are absolutely welcome!

Thanks so much for your help TDG - I am getting the Nutro at Petsmart, II did see that my trainer(instructor) carries Canidae, but unless I am was missing something the ingredients didnt look any better than the Nutro..... where else should I look, and what in your opinion would be a better choice for similar $ ? baileysmom, at first glance ingredient lists don't tell you much and often look very similar. for some help on telltale differences, check out these two links: [url]http://www.mordanna.com/dogfood/index.php?page=li101[/url] [url]http://www.mordanna.com/dogfood/index.php?page=identify[/url] if you can, try the canidae, most dogs do exceedingly well on it. it's more than a world apart from nutro and contains almost twice the amount of meat ingredients. pretty much the only decent brand petsmart carries is their "blue buffalo", which is quite expensive tho, especially considering it doesn't offer anything that other premium foods don't have. if you have a petsmart, look at natural balance and avoderm. also check out local farm and feed stores, they often carry better quality foods or will special order for you. innova and california natural are two brands i can't recommend highly enough. for comparing prices, see my post to the other current kibble thread, i posted a comparison calculation between two foods that show not-so-obvious facts about feeding cost. [url]http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=13875[/url]

carol, some comments on bil jac, going down the ingredient list: [b]Fresh Chicken By-Products (Organ Meat Only)[/b] i have so far not been able to get a concise statement from bil jac which organs this actually includes. if it is "organ meat only", why is chicken liver listed separately further down? other issues i have with this is the fact that the daily intake of organ meat should not be more than 5% of the daily ration and that this food uses three byproduct ingredients but only one meat source. also keep in mind that fresh byproducts are high in moisture content (over 70%) and ingredients are listed by descending weight before processing. [b]Fresh Chicken[/b] no complaints here, except for the fact that this fresh chicken also still includes over 70% moisture. remove this moisture from the first two ingredients and i bet you are going to end up with less of it present int he food than corn or chicken byproduct meal. [b]Corn[/b] no complaints here, as long as good quality, uncontaminated corn is used. [b]Chicken By-Product Meal[/b] a suspect ingredient, especially since the manufacturer claims that the first ingredient is "organ meat only" and chicken liver is listed separately. byproducts are whatever is left over after the choice cuts for human consumption have been removed. if you also remove the nutritious organs, there isn't really much nutritious substance left that can be thrown into the rendering vat to make chicken byproduct meal from. this ingredient is a dry product with little moisture, so listed by weight you can pack quite a lot into a product compared to fresh, unrendered meat and organs. [b]Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), [/b] no complaints, beet pulp is a clean, moderately fermentable source of fiber and as long as it is used in reasonable amounts instead of just as a filler, it's not a bad ingredient. [b]Fresh Chicken Liver[/b] a nutritious ingredient, but see above, i am very wary about what's in a product when byproducts are listed in 3 different instances. [b]Brewers Dried Yeast[/b] generally a good ingredient, rich in B complex vitamins and many dogs love the taste of it. nutritional yeast is a better choice overall, but brewer's yeast is an inexpensive byproduct of the brewing industry, so it's cheap to include it. [b]Cane Molasses[/b] here's your sweetener, carol, and i find it alarming that it is present in higher amounts than for example eggs. there is no reasonable explanation why this should even be included in a food, other than to make it taste more appealing - which a quality food doesn't need. dogs have been known to get addicted to sweet taste, refusing to eat [b]Eggs[/b] always a good thing, a great source of vitamin A and protein. [b]Salt[/b] in most cases a completely unnecessary flavoring agent, but sometimes used for electrolyte balance if other ingredients don't contribute enough. just like in people, too much of it is bad for dogs. usually whole food sources like eggs bring enough into the product. have you ever eaten organic, free range eggs and noticed how they often have a stronger, saltier taste than factory farmed ones? [b]Sodium Propionate (a preservative)[/b] chemical preservative [b]DL-Methionine[/b] feed grade aminoacid supplement. if quality protein sources are used, supplementation is generally not necessary. [b]L-Lysine[/b] aminoacid supplement. if quality protein sources are used, supplementation is generally not necessary. -----i am going to leave out the supplements unless i have a comment on them------------- [b]Vitamin A Acetate[/b] it worries me that the manufacturer claims that they are using gentle processing methods and include liver and eggs but still feel adding synthetic vitamin A is necessary. [b]Menadione Sodium Bisulfate Complex (source of Vitamin K)[/b] feed grade vitamin K3 supplement, linked to some health risks. quality foods include vitamin K1 or natural food sources. [b]Manganous Oxide[/b] oxide and sulfate forms of minerals are poorly absorbed in a dog's short intestinal tract. [b]BHA (a preservative)[/b] chemical preservative. banned from use in human foods in several countries already. [b]Iron Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Oxide[/b] oxide and sulfate forms of minerals are poorly absorbed in a dog's short intestinal tract.

carol, my beef with biljac specifically is that they use large amounts of salt and sweeteners in their formulations. if that wasn't the case, and they would switch to a natural method of preservation instead of using BHA, it would be a decent food. i know a lot of dogs really go for the taste and i used to use it as treats for training, until i learned more about nutrition. yes, i do think chicken soup is way above bil jac, it is definitely a premium product whereas bil jac is just mainstream (and for that, also overpriced). you could check if you can get "premium edge" where you are as well, also a good quality food made by diamond, but usually you will find it at feed and/or farm supply stores rather than pet stores. diamond recently reformulated that line and it's even better than before.

baileysmom, your choice isn't "bad", but for the price you are paying for the nutro, you could do much, much better. the saddest thing about nutro is that it has less than 30% meat content, even tho the overall ingredient quality is a lot better than other mid-range foods. where do you usually buy your food? maybe i can be of some help.

i don't quite agree with all the points of this grading form. [quote]8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3 points[/quote] there is nothing wrong with a food product containing corn, unless you have an animal that is sensitive particularly [b]to[/b] corn. i have talked to many people with dogs who do better on a food that contains corn instead of rice, especially larger breed dogs, and some dogs are outright intolerant to the most commonly used grain in commercial foods: rice. [quote]9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points[/quote] this doesn't make sense at all. why the top 5? if this is because of the often made assumption that the first 5 ingredients of a food are the main ingredients, i can tell you this is not the case. some foods have as little as 3 or 4 main ingredients, some have 8 or 9. it completely depends on the formulation. [quote]10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points[/quote] this doesn't make sense either. chicken fat for example is one of the best sources of fats in dog food. it is highly digestible and is the highest of all animal sources in linoleic acid, which is important for supporting skin and coat. a dog's digestive system is specialized for digesting animal fat sources, not plant fats, and if the source is of a specifically named source, there is nothing wrong with it at all. [quote]11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points[/quote] again, doesn't make sense. allergic or not, some dogs don't do as well on multiple sources of animal protein in foods, so to generalize as much and mark a food down because of this is a mistake. as long as the protein, fat and carbohydrate content are properly balanced, the number of sources doesn't matter. [quote]13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points[/quote] i would turn this around to make the statement more suitable. if your dog [b]is[/b] allergic to wheat, substract 2 points. for any other dog it doesn't matter, quality wheat is not a bad ingredient per se. [quote]14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to beef), subtract 1 point[/quote] see 13), it makes more sense the other way around. i happen to have a dog who does much better on beef than on chicken for example. [quote]15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point[/quote] depends on how much salt is used in the formulation. in large amounts it is out of place, but small amounts to support the mineral balance can definitely be beneficial, especially if the food doesn't contain any other natural sources of minerals, such as for example kelp. on to "Extra Credit": [quote]3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points[/quote] doesn't make sense. there is no proven benefit of an oven baked formula over an extruded formula. oven baked kibble is sometimes processed at higher temperature than extruded kibble. oven baked products also tend to crumble easier and tend to stick to some dog's teeth more. definitely not worth a 5 point bonus. [quote]5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points 6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points[/quote] fruit and veggies are a nice touch, but they don't contribute all that much. also pay special attention how much fruit and veggies are even used in a food. sometimes they are present in smaller amounts than other, less important ingredients. it doesn't make sense that a food that is overall of lesser quality than another product should get a bonus from having some minimal amounts of fruit and vegetables when other products may not have them but contribute more important supplements, such as for example probiotics, prebiotics and digestive enzymes. [quote]9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points[/quote] flax seed oil is a relatively inexpensive gimmick that doesn't really contribute all that much to the finished product, since the valuable nutrients in it oxidize quickly once a bag of food is opened. by the time the bag is about half empty, it's just a source of some fiber without much else left. if you want the benefit of flax seed oil, buy the whole seeds and grind small amounts, no more than what you would use up within 2 or 3 days. in supplements ground flax seed is a nice, inexpensive bulking agent. don't get fooled, you can buy a pound of this stuff for about $1.50 - the pet food industry acts like it should be worth its weight in gold. [quote]11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point[/quote] i would change that to "a specifically named vegetable oil source", since not only sunflower oil is a good addition to a dog food. personally i'd rate wheat germ oil, walnut oil, hemp oil and canola oil at least equal, if not even higher as sunflower oil. [quote]12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "" as 2 different sources), add 1 point[/quote] see 11) in the previous section - more is not always better. it very much depends on the individual nutritional requirements. [quote]13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point[/quote] again a widely played gimmick by the pet food industry. the fact that g&c are present doesn't necessarily mean they do anything, other than making the product more expensive. the amount present int he food must be high enough to even have an effect. if your dog would have to eat 2-3 times the recommended amount of the food every single day to even receive a maintenance dose, it's worthless. you are better off looking for a quality food without this supplement and spending a few extra dollars on a supplement that delivers appropriate doses of high-quality, medical grade g&c. so while overall this grading thing isn't bad, it leaves out a lot of things that need to be considered and it also includes a good number of myths. the biggest flaw is that if a food generally scores poorly throughout the first part but has a few extras (regardless whether hey have an effect on the overall quality of the product or not) it can still come out ahead of another food that may have a more basic formulation but offers excellent nutrition.

i'm not saying chicken soup is a bad food. i'm just trying to make a point explaining that the price tag on the bag doesn't mean much when you compare prices. small side note on wellness: it's also a good quality food, but it only contains about 30% meat, the rest is grains and some other things. that's why some dogs get huge, soft stools from eating it.

don't fall into the trap of just comparing foods by cost per bag, since what really matters is the feeding cost per day. higher quality foods contain less fillers and more meat, so you have to feed less overall and a bag lasts longer. here is an example: canidae and chicken soup adult have roughly the same guaranteed analysis, 24% protein, 14% fat (canidae has half a percent more) but the caloric content differs quite a bit. canidae has a higher content of omega fatty acids, which are beneficial for skin, coat and immune system. chicken soup statistics: caloric content: 336 kcal/cup, 1633 kcal/pound largest bag size: 35 pounds average price: $27 price per pound: roughly $0.77 canidae statistics: caloric content: 466 kcal/cup, 1865 kcal/pound largest bag size: 40 pounds average pirce: $35 price per pound: roughly $0.875 now let's look at the numbers on a daily feeding basis: let's say a moderately active dog of 50 lbs has a caloric requirement of 1200 kcal per day to maintain weight and good health. that's just over 2 1/2 cups of canidae per day, but of the chicken soup you would have to feed a little over 3 1/2 cups per day. 35 pounds of chicken soup equals about 170 cups of food, at 3 1/2 cups a day, it would last 48 days. your feeding cost in a 30 day period is $16.87. 40 lbs of canidae equals about 160 cups of food, at 2 1/2 cups a day, it would last 64 days. your feeding cost in a 30 day period is $16.40. so even tho canidae is the more expensive food on a per pound or per bag basis, there is only a very small difference if you look at the daily feeding cost. canidae's ingredients are of much higher quality, plus it doesn't contain synthetic vitamin K (health risks) but does have probiotics and enzymes, which chicken soup does not have. mind you, i'm not saying that chicken soup is a bad food, i know a lot of people who feed it with good results, my point is just that comparing by cost per bag can be very deceptive. :)

if you can, switch to the chicken soup. it is of much higher quality than the regular diamond line and doesn't include byproducts. :)

there are no lame questions! :) shoot me an email when you're ready to talk. :D

where i am, a 35 lb bag goes for about $35. to be frank and open with you, it's not only overpriced but also poor quality. it has a lot of byproducts, sugar, salt and chemical preservatives. you can get many better brands for less money than that. have a look [url=http://www.mordanna.com/dogfood/]here[/url] and [url=http://www.mordanna.com/boards/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=dogfood]here[/url].

i just have to post a note here. i too do not think that prong collars are "evil", but whoever recommended the fitting technique shown on the leerburg site - that is [b]not[/b] the proper fit and can do a [b]lot[/b] of serious damage to your dog. no instructor in germany (where this type of collar was invented) would let you get away with fitting a prong collar on a dog that way. it's positioned at the most vulnerable spot of the neck, directly over the larynx, which has very delicate bones. the site is correct that it is also not supposed to rest too far down towards the shoulders, but the true proper fit is snugly about in the middle between the yellow line and where it actually rests in that one pic, where skin and muscle protects the neck. the correction will still be effective, but is not going to cause intense pain and possibly serious injury.

HF, how is devin doing? :)

and of course you are entitled to that. nobody is debating that. :) i just think it's never a bad thing to keep an open mind and try something different. i'm glad i did, because it lead me from feeding my pets expensive, poor quality food (science diet) to better quality alternatives that don't cost a cent more. i started out feeding my dog nutro natural choice after i adopted him, thinking it was a great brand and he couldn't possibly improve. until he picked up a few fleas somewhere and i had to fight a long and aggravating battle against flea allergy dermatitis within just 24 hours. switching foods made a world of a difference i had never imagined possible. even diamond pet foods has lines that are better and some that are worse. "premium edge" and "chicken soup" being the high end ones, and "country value" being rock bottom.

AllAmericanPUP, it doesn't always have to be raw. there are excellent recipes out there for home cooked diets that will offer worlds of a difference in nutrition, better than any commercial food. personally i'm not an extremist in either direction, for or against raw. my dog gets both. what is critical for me is to avoid poor quality and outright dangerous ingredients. and i want to feed my dog appropriate food that doesn't put undue stress on his system. i want him to still be around 15 years down the road and do anything possible to keep him healthy.

i just figured some people here would find this article interesting: [url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5319129/[/url]

aroura, they are not specifically concerns with this dog (he's very healthy and happy, no issues at all for which i am grateful), but concerns with the food products themselves. i've been doing research for 4 years now and have learned a lot. my main concern about commercial foods (especially dry) is ingredient quantities and qualities. most people do not realize that the most popular brands consist of less than 20% meat content, and even some of the high-end brands are very heavy on grains. the content in wellness is only about 30% for example. kibble can not include more than 50% meat because it makes the manufacturing process impossible and the finished kibble would easily crumble and not store well. while dogs are not strictly carnivores, their digestive tract is designed for processing meat, fat and bones but lacks the enzymes and features that efficiently break down plant cell walls and carbohydrates. for that reason, you have to pulp, grate or cook veggies and fruit, or feed overripe things that are already starting to break down. if you don't do this, the pieces will come out the same way they go in. the same goes for grains, especially when only inferior parts of them are used - standard practice in cheap dog foods, and you can easily see the results by the giant piles the dogs leave behind. the more digestible (read usable for the body) a food is, the less waste product the body has to get rid of. this brings me to the ingredient quality. i'm not saying that price is [i]always[/i] the right factor to gauge ingredient quality, but how do you think a company can for example sell you a 50 pound bag for $12 (24 cents per per pound) or so and still [b]make a profit[/b]? it isn't going to be much more than poor quality corn or other grain (possibly obtained cheaply because it has been condemned from use in human food products) and meat (and bone) meal rendered from slautghterhouse leftovers, roadkill, restaurant grease and meat collected from supermarkets because it has passed its sell-by date. add to that feed grade supplements that can barely be absorbed, synthetic versions of vitamins that are cheaper to produce but less effectively utilized by the body and possibly cause buildup and toxicity. that's just a very rough rundown, there are many, many other concerns but these are the most important ones.