Poofy

You might consider having her x-rayed. If there are only one or two puppies they might not give off enough signaling hormone to trigger her into labor. Or they might have died in utero...If either of the above occured, the consequences can be serious unless delt with.

Okay..dog on dog agression.. At least this would not be as much of a hot debate as dog to human.. ;) heheheh Any hoooooo.... Generally, I would say no to euthenasia...if the following situations were met. It was the only dog If it was not the only dog I had a way to house it seperately without confrontation and stress to the other dogs and denying it contact to me. However, as some one who does rescue as well...to adopt out such a dog is a big risk. Since you can be held (legally) responsible for damage it does, if the new owner screws up. Also there is the chance for human injury if they try to break up a dog fight. Then it would depend on the level of aggression, type, and breed of dog.

If the milk does not come down, right after they are born, you might want to consider a shot of oxytocin (sp?). This will help contract her uterus and flush it out, and it will help bring down her milk.

Test breedings should never be done willy-nilly (padgett said that too), they are *risky*. And only when the benefits will out way the bad. The breeds that most rely on the willingness of breeders, to do test breedings, are those with small and limited gene pools. Sometimes for the benefit of the breed...you HAVE to know how something is inherited.

you have to remember, a mix can often closely resemble another breed. *especially* to the untrained eye, for that breed. Also, since there is such a *wide* variaty in the types of APT possible, it would be *very* easy to find one with physical traits to that of a Dogo. If you *really* want to know, you need to locate a dog show and talk to some Dogo breeders and get them to look at the dog.

"Many non-dog owners (and actually quite a few dog owners) think that all dog aggressive dogs should be PTS because they pose too much of a danger to people/other dogs. I know that different people will tolerate different behaviors/levels of behaviors in their's and other peoples' dogs, so I'm just trying to "broaden my horizons" a little, and get a better idea from a "normal" dog owner's point of view.... " It depends on what your definition of aggressive is. *aggression* in dogs is normal dog behavior, *AGGRESSION* as the media, the uninformed, and the general public has made it into, is a different story. "Notice we are only talking about dog aggression here, not human aggression. " So you want to limit this to DOG on DOG agression?

"Poofy we don't all agree with each other. If you do not find the board interesting, then it is your choice to either stay or go somewhere else." Its not a matter of just "agreeing" its a matter of thinking the same way. "Several asked for YOUR explaination on genetics and YOU are one that got defensive. " Yes, you asked me to state what I meant. And I said I did not want to get into this discussion, because it was a hot topic. You basically accused me of not knowing what I was talking baout and if I did I would prove it. I did prove it, and then I am accused of not writing what I wrote? That is NOT *me* getting deffensive that is being forced to defend myself. The point is I should NOT have to PROVE anything about myself to any one on here or any where else. If a person is knowledgable about a subject they normally do not mind questions and posting answers. Apparently, you do mind --- and that's okay. Actually, no I do NOT mind. I can talk the subject all day. Infact I get lots of e-mails from my peers in reguard to color genetics in our breed. I also talk to other breeders, of different breeds as well. I enjoy talking about it. But, test breeding is a topic as hot as abortion, among breeders. And I will say, the air of this forum is very unwavering. I have seen it over and over, when the topic of breeding is brought up. Now, if you have any scenario's as to the test matings that you know about, it would be educational to read some. Especially the conclusion(s) of the test. This may help someone that is reading the forum, but afraid to post, from making the same mistake I have a couple of scenerios in my color genetics article I am working on. Its on my home page. They are *not* very good examples simply because I had to keep them very, very, very simply because I am writing the paper for our breed club 'zine. But it will give you the jest of the idea. When its done (and I am so anal it will probably never get done) There is, I wish I could find the article, an institution right now, doing test breeding on liver shunts in Yorkies, I think. They want to purchase affected animals and animals with affected offspring and siblings, to try and test for the mode of inheretance. George Padgett has a decent explanation in his book, Malcolm willis has a pretty good explanation but no real examples, his is also a bit earier to read I think. I think the Genetic Connection, book might have some info...then of course there are my past text books, but they are about boring. I would have to think about that...and see if I could devise a test mating. I will probably use color, because I can give you personal experiences with that and plausible solutions, also, color is a benign topic and less likely to spurn emotion. Even if you use color, you could insert, any autosonomal recessive or dominant anomolie that might be an issue and it would generally work the same. The only problem, there is no way for me to design a good punnett square (in text) to give visual examples.... I will try tho.

What request?? Sorry I musta missed that.

As for Death over debarking...I never accused any one HERE of making that choice...I accuse the morons that turn in their dogs, for this unwanted behavior. And once again, for training...training does not always work. You said "Poofy has your shelter ever considered starting a no bark training program. If your shelter has such a problem with it then help the owners find a resolution. Spay/Neuter at 7 to 16 weeks! Now I can honestly say I WOULD NEVER do this. The dog doesn't have a chance to develop mentally or physically. I am a firm believer in the 5-6 month timeline. " One problem, our town does not have a shelter, there is not a shelter within 35 miles of my little town. The shelters that are around are so over taxed with other finacial problems...its scarey. The nearest qualified dog training facility is 1.5 hours south of me. "We put our dogs first, if they are unhappy or a neighbor is unhappy we will move. Simple as that." It must be nice, to be that finacially well off, that you can just go buy a house on a whim whenever you like. Not everyone can do that. I personally do not WANT to ever debark my dogs, and I have chosen to live in places where I am less likely to ever be faced with that. Currently I live down the road from a chicken farm, population 1 million plus....I don't complain about the sound of a million hungry chickens at 4 am in the morning...and they don't complain about my dogs...or the rescues (which do bark a lot). But not everyone has the luxuary of living in an agricultural community, or being able to move when they want... and then, life changes happen and they are faced with that delimma. " Dogs are smarter than people think, any dog can be trained to not bark." Its not a matter of a lack of intelligence...sometime, especially in LGDs it a matter of TOO MUCH intelligence. They think they know when-how-and why and are smarter then you. ;) "DO NOT debark your dog because of the convienience. This must be a last chance kind of procedure. I would much prefer to listen to a dog bark then that shriek they can emit after the debarking procedure." I agree here. Don't do it out of convienance...but don't be afraid to do it if it is the only solution other then getting rid of the dogs. Out of the 50+ debarked dogs I have known, I have never heard one shriek either. I have only heard a dog shriek when it has learned to avoid the correction of a citronella collar or a shock collar. "Have you ever sat down with these people and actually tried to get the truth from them." These dogs are usually, turned over to me, personally, as I do the rescue work for this breed in my area. Yes I talk to these people, they don't just fill out a sheet of paper. I have even tried walking people through, step by step, training methods, that are usually most effective. I have helped lay out, rehousing plans, where the dog's schedule would better fit their work schedule to try and control the barking as they guard the home when no one is at home. This works, some times, and many times it fails, due to pressures put on people by home-owners societies, local ordnances, dangerous neighbors, and family. "Most people will not admit that they just don't like the dog, or it's too big " The second biggest complaint for this breed is the hair...to much of it.. :) And of course I discuss grooming alternatives with them as well. "Before baby this dog is frustrated about something hum what could it be?" Well...my reaction to people like this is, why the heck did you have the kid, you had the dog..but that is just me... ;) Frustration may not be it. It may be the squirrles outside the window, it might be what ever is on TV, it might be the cat on the fire place mantel...etc..etc... "If you are here considering a breed to buy, go to breeders, owners, shows and learn, learn, learn about the breed." You will also see, these same breeders at the shows, will have their own dogs debarked to cut down on neighbor confrontation.... Visit the collie and sheltie ring...some of the schnauzer breeders....they will also have opinions about debarking.

People who breed these crosses and fill folks with mis-information, are just taking advantage of the public. People who buy them, usually have more money, then common sense. Ah well..

There is absolutely nothing wrong with not understanding something...we are not born knowing. But you have to look at it at my perspective, I said I didn't want to discuss this topic...then I sort of get challanged into making a point...I made my point and then I am basically told that all I did was cut and paste it from another article some where or took it from a book. I don't appreciate that. Surely you can understand why it ticked me off. I use these forums for information and education, I know some people are just on these things to stir the pot, but to be treated like a liar, when I oblige someone on a challenge, its not fair. Some one on here made the comment, something to the fact, that these topics didn't used to get so long until I and TLC came along...I know with me, its because I just don't smile and say "I agree". If I have a different opinion I will state it. I don't expect others to agree with me...but I do expect some (just a tad) of understanding...and not to be challanged on everything because I don't conform to your click. Diveristy is important...perhaps more people on this board would speak their opinion if they didn't think they would get flamed or crusified. I think all of these topics, would be a HECK of alot more interesting and we could learn a lot more, if more then just the same people posted over and over, agreeing with each other all the time...I am not saying, lets argue...but lets lay out our ideas and talk about them and not be afraid of being marked for doing it....

Well if I had used "big" words you would have probably accused me of taking that from some where as well SITEDCITED And I am sure you have never made a typo

Where I got it from? The top part of the reply is written by me, I "got" it from the dozen plus different genetic books I have read over the years, the knowlege I have gained as a breeder, and from my professors. The bottom part I SITED where I got it from.

I have a hard time believe he has read it or he would not accuse me of Plagiarizing it.

Why not accuse me of stealing it from Malcolm Willis's book, Genetics of the dog.

WHY DON'T YOU READ THE BOOK AND FIND OUT! You will notice that the QUOTE is from his book and I even stated that. Get real.

Excuse me but I do not need plagiarize. This was not cut and pasted from any article. I DID write it in word before I posted it so that I could spell check it. You asked me and I told you. You people make no sense. You question what I say, then when I explain it, you tell me I didn't write it. What a joke. The ONLY thing that was not in my words, was the QUOTE, from Padgett's book which I gave credit too.

I will explain the value of test breedings but please, lets refrain from a debate. First, test breedings have their greatest value when dealing with an autosomal recessive diseases that is evident early on. Test breedings, do not have much value when dealing with an autosomal dominant, trait, as the animal would be expressing the disease, and you would know who was a "carrier" for it. The only time when dealing with a dominant trait, that a test breeding, would have its value, is when you are dealing with a pleitropic trait. Test breeding can help a breeder, determine carriers, of any autosomal recessive trait. Because of the way, a recessive gene can be passed down, unnoticed, an entire gene pool, or breeding program, can be contaminated and on the brink of devastation, before the breeders even realizes there is a problem. Test breeding can also determine, how something is inherited. Is it a polygenic disease? Is it autosomal? Is it sex linked? Is it dominant or recessive? Is it linked, chromosomally with another trait? Or are they inherited separately? Without this information, any breeding program could be lost. The only way to achieve that information is through test breeding. And the only way to establish, non carriers, of recessives and sex linked diseases, is through test breedings. Those established non-carriers could then be used as the basis, for a clear stock, breeding program. There are many

Hey, I was simply asking...and yes, this person has already e-mailed me and stated that...thank you ;)

I noticed that you are inquiring about maltese or peekapoo rescue....I surely HOPE and pray that you are inquiring because you have decided NOT to breed your girl...and not looking for a stud dog, through rescue.

Didn't you post to the breeding board wanting to breed your dog? I hope you realize that rescues, by law, can only be adopted out NEUTERED. I hope your are not looking at rescue to find a stud dog!

If you love her spay her. To much can go wrong in a breeding its not worth loosing her. Breeding her can also change her demeanor. She could begin urinating and deficating in the house to mark territory. (yes b*tches do this too). These behaviors rarely stop even when you spay. She could become overly protective and aggressive as her hormones contiue to rise and fall, and even if spayed afterwards, she could exhibit agressive behavor from displaced maternal instinct. Also, no one with a quality dog is going to breed to your girl. And breeding to the dog down the road might expose her to nasty doggy VDs that could be spread to you when you whelp and handle the puppies. There are also bacterial infections that can be contracted through breeding your girl, that could spread to her lungs or brain and kill her before you even know anything is wrong. Breeding is never a paint by number... ;)

When I stated the neutering thing...I should have clarified the first time (I did in later posts) that I was reffering to pre-pubescent spay/neuteres. 6 months is NOT a pre-pubescent spay neuter... a 7 week old to 16 week old puppy, being neutered, is a pre-pubescent spay neuter. And leg lifting...leg lifting is a learned behavior like dominance humping. You won't stop the learned leg lifting and the dominace humping...you will prevent (99% of the time) the behavior of leg lifting for s*xual competition (which usually means peeing on everything in your house) and you will also prevent humping from s*xual frustration. And to the person who said, they would NEVER debark their dog for any reason... Never say never. You mean to tell me, if it came down to loosing your dog, or loosing the bark...you would get rid of the dog? Do you REALLY mean that? For some people it HAS come to that. Example: 25 years ago the town near me had no noise ordnances. Recently ordnances were past and a keesh hound breeder found herself in court facing thousands of dollars in fines. She was there first, the neighbors that moved in ACROSS THE LAKE, were there second. But they could hear her dogs bark...and they barked for more then a 5 minute strech at a time (wether they were quite for hours didn't matter). She could A: Pay the $500 fine for each infraction She could B: Leave her Job, her home, and try to get another home some where else and most likely have to disperse her kennel because of the realistic problem that houses cost $100,000 or more (then hope she doesn't wind up some where worse) She could C: Get rid of all her dogs, destroy a 25 year long breeding program that she has dedicated her life too. Or D: She could Debark the dogs, and give the neighbor nothing to complain about....and have no fear of breaking further noise ordnances. Another scenerio: Person buys a nice breed, such as a Lab, not usually prone to barking. Looses his job 8 years later and has to move into an apartment. The neighbors above tend to be a bit noisy and the dog, who is getting old barks back at them. He is left with the choice to get rid of the problem, or get out...and he has no place to go due to the limits in the job market. Another scenerio: A breed of dog, not known for barking, but for some reason has adopted the habbit and is driving the owners crazy. Correction has not worked, and has only been affective when the dog is on leash. They live with it for a few years...then a baby is born, the dog's barking wakes up the baby on a regular basis, no one is getting any sleep. A: Get rid of the Dog? Or B: Get rid of the bark? I can go on and on and on...and sadly tooooo many times people get rid of the dog. Currently I have two dogs in rescue. One, an LGD who was very attached to her people and does not want another family. She was given up because she, barks to much. I suggested debarking...and they winced and said...oh how cruel....my reply was, what do you think will happen to her if she can't be rehomed (and I got a blank stare). Now, she will probably wind up dead, because all efforts to rehome her have failed. It amazes me how people feel that death is better then compromise.

You asked "I'm not trying to be funny or argumentative, but why did your friend choose to breed and show collies? They are well known for barking A LOT." She has had collies for over 50 years. And many years ago people were not the same as they are now. Today people will shoot your dog for barking. She debarks to keep her neighbors from complaining. No matter where you are, uless you are centered on 100 acres, 10 collies barking, goes a loooog ways. Anothe wrote "I see no reason to debark," And there are those who see no reason to spay neuter too, keep their dogs contained, put them on heart worm prevention, take them to obedience...etc..etc... "move," Oh goody, you plan on buying her a new house. I am sure she will gladly move to a nice 100 acre secluded area, if your buying. GET REAL "keep fewer dogs," You cannot have a decent breeding program if you don't have dogs. Sure you can "pretend" you are actually doing something...but most breeding programs require 2-3 litters a year to actually GET any where, that is if you actually have goals. "teach them not to bark," HAHAHAHAHAAH you are sooooo funny. NOT all dogs can be taught not to bark. "lots of ways to correct the problem." Sure...and one way is DEBARKING the dog. Another wrote "I DO have guardian dogs. I have guardian dogs because of what they were bred to do.....guard, as in livestock. The do not bark non-stop, only when they preceive something is a threat. " Your right...they usually only bark when they percive a threat. Guardian dogs are not (usually) recreational barkers....but they bark at predators (or what they percieve as a threat), the mail man, the birds in the sky, the trash bag blowing in the wind....Butterfly farts. It would be nice if people would research LGD's before they buy them (and other breeds). But sadly most don't. I would rather see these dogs debarked, then subjected to shock collars or being hit or locked up...or worse...loose their homes and wind up on death row. Also...your dogs probably don't bark that much to YOU...but your neighbors (if you have any) may feel differently. I only have one pyr at home now, he is old and crippled. When I run them with livestock for training, or had them to guard what I had, I would listen to them all night long, barking as they patrolled. I liked the sound...my neighbors, who were acres away, did not. Another wrote "Anesthesia is very dangerous for all living things, even in small doses. I almost lost my malamute because he is so sensitive to it. " I never said there was not a risk. But we take that risk when ever we spay/neuter, when ever we clean teeth, etc. Debarking could be done, when one of those other procedures are being done. Trying to rehome a problem barker is a much greater risk... " don't understand what you mean by a dog that won't accept human control. Any dog can learn." LGDs are bred to be self thinkers. They are bred to be taken out into a pasture and release with the livestock, to remain out there and make descisions about what has to be done. LGDs do not make good obedience dogs for this reason. Teaching them to heal, when they feel they need to walk out front of behind. Most can NEVER be trusted off leash, because they will not come when called. There are those who do obedience and have been successful with it, achieving titles, but most NEVER get any where because these dogs are hard wired to be independant self thinkers...its about like trying to train a cat. Other dogs can just be plain stubborn...it just doesn't CLICK in their heads as to WHY you are correcting them. You said "Emotion Vocalization: well if dogs don't vocalize their emotions then my dogs are way off kilter. All three of them vocalize concern, regret, happiness, etc.. " Well I also never said they did not do this...but vocalization is still not the main thing for dogs. You notice the sound, because human being rely on voice A LOT more then dogs. Dogs RELY on body language and smell before sound. "As I said before, we are all entitled to our opinions and I for one do not care for debarking a dog! My dogs will never see that procedure. There we're done, enough said. " GOOD for you. I am glad you have things under control I think the problem here is you people think I am saying debark all dogs...that is NOT what I am saying. I have many dogs of my own, I also have neighbors. I have NEVER debarked one of my own dogs. I would not want to have to debark them. But if it meant debarking them, to keep them, by golly I would debark them. "P.S. If a person moved into our neighborhood who didn't care for dogs or their barking they would have to deal with about 50 homeowners. That's quite a battle" When people get really pissed, they won't DEAL with the home owners..they wil DEAL with the dogs. When they get mad enough to start poisoning dogs it will be the DOGS who will pay.

"Okay so you believe everything else is cruel, don't you think forcing a dog to go under the knife is cruel. Every time you put a dog under you are taking the chance of not getting the dog back. You have to take this seriously. Here's a solution; a humane muzzle. With the humane muzzle the dog can pant, eat, drink, etc. but cannot bark or bite (can nip). " Oh please...so are you against spay/neutering too? Debarking can and is done with very little anestesia, heck do it while your dog gets it teeth cleaned. They also do not "cut" the dog's throat open, they go in through the mouth and clip the vocal cords. Its quick, there is little to no bleeding, and the dog can go home the same day. Oh sure...like that is REALLy gonna stop a dog from barking...only in your dreams. Dogs who are muzzled learn other ways of making noise...they learn to scream..and if they can get their mouth open enough to eat...then they can bark. Another said: Dogs do not care if they can bark. "Please tell me how YOU know this?" Because the behavior of the dog is not changed, verses the behavior of a dog who has been corrected for the action. you rescue enough pyrs with burn holes in their necks and you would not even ask me this question. I have a friend who breeds and shows collies...her dogs...ALL OF HER DOGS are debarked. Why? you try living with ten dogs who bark none stop, day and night, no matter wether they are inside are out, its 9 am or 1 am at night...if they are awake..they are barking. No one, who can hear, could live with that. "Deaf dogs can not hear, therefore; they bark loudly. Dogs can be taught to bark softly, at least mine can and have. I've heard dogs bark softly and very loudly, depending on what they are barking at, the level of their stress, or competition. " Some dogs can be taught not to bark, even to adjust volume..but some CANNOT BE TAUGHT THIS... Some breeds, that are thousands of years old...or so bred for the action, cannot be rewired through training. It is not going to happen! Deaf or hearing...some breeds just have incredibly loud barks. "Maybe, but it's done because they do not want to take the time to teach the dog not to bark loudly. " Maybe its done because they are not some looser jerk that will dump a dog when they realize it can't be taught to not do what it was bred to do. "WHAT? So a genetic trait to bite is cruel to try and correct because the dog doesn't understand? It's the same thing. There are various things that a person can do to get the dog not to bark. " If a dog is genetically programmed to BITE then it is not a pet and does not belong as one. BITING is often the result of frustration or poorly directed drive, or sever behaviro problems. Very, very different. I do not know of any breed "bred" to BITE. But I am sure you will think up one, and I am sure the breeders of that breed would probably have a fit as well. There are breeds bred to be dog agressive, breeds bred to take down game, but not bred to BITE... "That is the shortcoming of the handler. If done correctly. There are ways to correct a bark without harm to the dog (mentally). Teach the dog to bark on command, then be silent. Teach him to bark softly --- it can be done with patience" What do you do when you are not there to exert that control? Are you going to baby sit the dog every moment of its life for the rest of its life? I don't think so. You have to sleep...you have to have a job... What about dogs that don't take human control? Such as the large guardian breeds? Pyrs, marammer, kuvas, and the many others...they couldn't give a rat's butt what you wanted...they have a job to do...and that is to warn off predators...which means BARKING. " Even being debarked, MANY still make some sort of noise. NOISE is NOISE to many neighbors, regardless of the level of pitch or decimal" Yes they do...but the noise level is tollerable...it does not penetrate walls, echo down the road, for every one within half a mile to hear. You can play your radio in your home at a level that will not disturb your neighbors...or you can crank it up and have the police called on you. "Neutering and spaying does NOT stop all these behaviors. It only stops reproduction. Many neutered dogs still mark, still roam, still hump, still display dominance behavior. Many females are still just as dominant as before" It WILL stop those behaviors if it is done prepubescently. Only on very, very rare occasions, will a male, neutered prepubescently, try to breed a female in heat...and she would absolutely have to antagonize him. The early s/n cuts down on about 90% of those behaviors...just as debarking will stop about 90% of the problem. humping due to dominance will not stop, but humping due to sexual frustration, should never begin. "That is debatable. MANY dogs still end up at the shelter for lots of other reasons....many times it's the owners inability to manage or handle the dog. " The NUMBER ONE reason why Large Guardian breeds, collies, shelties, GSDs, Dobes, wind up in shelter is BARKING to much. Having filled out hundreds of "why did you turn your dog in" reports..I do know this for a fact. " do not agree with debarking a dog. Dogs bark because of emotion, expression and communication. We may not understand it, but they are always telling us or other dogs what is going on" Dogs do not communicate through voice, like people do. They do not rely on voice. Dogs communicate, firstly, through body language, which is the first thing to be altered when you "correct" barking. Second through scent, and lastly vocalization. Vocalization is usually reserved for long distance communication... "Come on people, research your breeds. Also moving is not an excuse. Before you move into a new home check out your neighborhood." Some people, due to job changes and or military moving, do not have that luxuary. You may also move to a great place...then suddenly get crappy neighbors. "Keep your dog inside at night so it won't bark all night." This will work sometimes...or you could wind up staying up all night listening to your dog bark. "Find a breeder, go to a show, find someone who has that breed and spend some time with them. Most good people will be honest about the breeds faults. If you can't find anyone, find a breed specific forum and ask them. " Yes do that...talk to the breeders, go to shows...and you will be suprised how many of them have debarked their dogs. The people that KNOW AND UNDERSTAND the breed. The people that are responsible for its well being....yes, they DEBARK their dogs.