Poofy

You said: "Hobbit, I said PSEUDO. Do you feel guilty and think the registry you use is not legitimate?" Well heck sandyb...they way you have been talking...only AKC is legitimate, at least in your eyes. I think this cramming of AKC down the throat has gotten to be a bit much don't ya think.... AKC may be the biggest and baddest kid on the block...but they are not the only ones who act for the welfare of the dogs...

The fact that this dog did NOT do the damage it *could* have done, tells you it had some sort of control. It would not suprise if the "holding back" of the owner, "inticed" the dog for the "bite" This is a technique done in bite work to enhance the dog's desire for "bite". It is a fact that if you choose to own breeds that were bred with drive, protection drive especially, then you take on a whole new set of obligations. Strict training is a must and disciplin should be swift and sure. You must be able to control them, overpower them, and take on any of the possible problems having such a dog can cause. These dogs are only doing what they were bred to do. I have seen golden retrievers jump up on people in play, and grab their sleeves, and do more damage then a scratch....with the jaw power that dog had he could have crushed the man's arm...yet he chose not to.

No, dogs cannot see in complete darkeness like a cat. They can however see in low level light better then a human being. Because a dog uses its nose like "eyes" and their olfactory perception is so powerful, they can practically smell their way through a room. Also their wiskers act as "radar" detecting walls or boundries before they tough them...their hearing, is so acute, they can hear shifts in sound and how it carries and also detect the presence of people and or other animals. Can they SEE with their eyes? no...but they can SEE with their other senses.

We are not requires...yet...to DNA females...we are required to DNA males if they are bred more than 3 times in one year or sire more then seven litters in a lifetime.

Geeze...after seeing all the fur fly between you two...i would hate to be needing a mentor...I'd be too nervous to tell some one my name...let alone that I breed... sheeesh.

You said: "Are certain things that have a genetic predisposition brought on by poor care, ie getting fat, etc. Yes. Fat doesn't cause HD for example. the dog carried the genes for HD to begin with. Diabetes due to being overweight, I would not refund money to." Sorry, you can't prove if the weight caused the problem or the problem caused the weight. One of the symptoms of Diabetes is weight gain. Also with HD, while it is not caused by excessive weight, it can be exacerbated by it. A dog that could have lived a long normal life, never showing symptoms, can be crippled by an owner who allows them to gain undue weight or even over exercises it, forcing it to jump at an early age, or pull weights etc. Dogs who may never have developed HD can show changed in the hip joint due to injury, dislocation, etc. Same with ED. What about OCD? Was it a fall that damaged the blood vessels and caused the cartliage to die then break off or was it genetic? There is no way to know. There are a myrid of things. We do a 5 year health guarantee because of the heart and eye problems in our breed (we also do clearances and many don't). Yet I have NEVER purchased a dog, that was guaranteed. Yes I have seen a couple of breeders who had them, but the guarantees were either useless (and made me more nervous then those wihout) or they were so full of loop holes they were a joke. I have purchased dogs, after I do my research, look at pedigrees, talk to people who have bought from them...I have been happy so far. Also, I can see breeders guaranteeing dogs, that are destined to be shown. But, I disagree that it is the norm, for breeders to guarantee pets. "Now are certain things caused by environment. yes. Are certain things that have a genetic predisposition brought on by poor care, ie getting fat, etc." Unless there are genetic markers, you can never 100% prove, if the affliction was environment? Or genetic. And don't think that that could not be argued in a small claims court. If you sold a dog who died of hemagosarcoma, a "geneticly predispositioned" type of cancer...was the dog truly genetically predispositioned? or was it the fact that the dog drank out of a contaminated creek every day that recieved runoff from the local power plant? If an owner fed poorly or too much, in the dog's early life, it could cause bone deformaties...that you will never know...were they genetic? was the dog predispositioned? or was it neglegence. I always encourage pet buyers to look for a breeder who will offer a guarantee...but the fact is, some of the best ones will not. They have been burned and learned a lesson. People who are desperate, angry or heartbroken, over an ill pet, will throw trust right out the window...pain causes irrational thought.

You asked: "By the way, it's me again, but do you think that it was our fault for bringing home a dog with such separation anxiety as first time dog owners? " No, it is not your "fault" per say. This was the "fault" of the animal shelter. You took the dog out of ignorance....you took them for what they said and did not quesiton it. I have found, more times then not, that shelters can be so deperate to get dogs new homes, they "accidently" sugar coat some problems. Also...when I say "ignorance" I do not say that in a bad way...you simply didn't know better. You said: "I think it's a lot better than getting an untrained dog that's all over the place, but the first thing a couple of people said was "Why did you get a dog like that if you have no experience with dogs?!" Having not owning a dog definitely doesn't mean that I don't have experience with them. " Well...what you have is more difficult then an untrained dog. An untrained dog can be trained...its just "ignorant" ;) a dog with a severe behavior disorder cannot always be helped. It would be kinda like adopting a dog with a medical problem, like epilepsy or diabetes....you will have a long bumpy road, even if you can get it undercontrol. You said: "Having not owning a dog definitely doesn't mean that I don't have experience with them. I've seriously been working with dogs for the past 1.5 years at a shelter." Working with dogs, even living with dogs, teaches you someting...BUT its not the same. When I say experienced, I mean some one who has some sort of back gorund in behavior problems and an understanding of dog behavior and modification of behavior. and yes...sometimes that experience comes from a situation like yours. You said "It makes me feel as though adopting Luka (saving Luka from euthanasia) was a bad choice. I need some cheering up. Plus, how can anyone guarantee that he won't be a good dog for first time owners? All it takes is time, patience, and support, right? " No it was not a "bad choice." Trying and making an effort is NEVER a bad choice. And there is no guarantee that, with proper help, he won't become a good dog, but the problem will never completely go away. I am not going to lie to you, if the worlds problems could be fixed with time, patience and support, then there would be no homeless dogs or dogs who have behavior problems. I am not trying to pee in your cheerios...but I am also being realistic and I don't want to make you think that tomarrow everything will be a-ok. Thats why you have to decide...are you ready for the job? Are you ready to try your best? And are you ready to possibly fail? Failure does not mean you are less or that the dog did not deserve another chance...it simply means you are only human and only capable of human things. I will say this...i think that if you can get professional help, you will make a difference in this dog...how much? I can't say...will your family put up with the set backs? I have no idea....but I think if you can do it...the rewards might be worth it all.

You said "Whatever you do [b]DO NOT[/do not take him back to the shelter. If he's lucky enough to find another home from there, he will be even worse with the new owner. Sounds like he has some psychological problems in feeling "left" or "forgotten". I do not recommend drugs as the dog will not learn to be a good dog in your absence. " When I mentioned drugs, I did not recommend as the choice of treatment. I am sorry, but there are some dogs that have chemical embalances that make them like this. Dogs that mutilate themselves and go into sever distress are usually *far* beyond NORMAL training methods. This situation needs a professional, not a T-shirt, and home course training methods. He DEFINATELY has psychological problems...which is why he needs help. Drugs will not "keep him" from learning how to "be good"..so to speak...they will however calm the anxiety so that the dog will have a chance to REALIZE that the world is not comming to an end when their person leaves. A dog psychiatrist will be the best choice...they will be able to combine training and medication to get a grip on the situation. Taking this dog back to the shelter is THE ONLY OPTION this person should even consider if they are NOT going to be able to finacially care for this dog and get it the help it needs. Giving it away would be totally irresponsible or trying to live with this behavior is only self destructive. Eventually you would begin to hate the dog because of the problems and destruction it *will* cause. Serious, professional help should be the first choice. When severe enough, this type of anxiety can be a serious problem...dogs will do what ever they can to get to their people, out of a crate, etc, this includes going through windows, steel doors, impailing themselves on broken crate wire, chewing off their limbs and tails, pulling out their hair, barking themselves into unconsciousness etc...and in my experience, it DOES NOT get better only WORSE with age...unless properly treated... Please contact an expert in this field so that you can get the advise that you need and a treatment protocol that would be best for the dog.

Please understand i am not condemming, but I must ask..why, being a first time dog owner, would you take on such a difficult if not impossible task??? All you have done is set yourself up for failure? Did this dog come from an individual or a shelter? Sometimes training does not help with these type of behaviors, sometimes the problem is chemical. You need to inlist the help of a professional dog psychiatrist. You can find one by contacting a local veterinary university. This type of care will cost lots of money...and there may not be any way to "fix" the problem. If you don't think you can handle it, my suggestion would be to take it back to whomever you got it from. I know thats probably not what you want to hear...and I do hope something can be done (if not training, perhaps drug therapy)....but if it can't I also don't want you to think that you failed in some way. Dogs can have mental disease like people...and sometimes you just can't fix the problem. Good Luck

Many breeders, even the best, are no longer giving guarantees on the puppies they sell. Reason is, that you cannot control what people do with and to the puppies and some choices, that new owners make, are detrimental to the health of the puppy. When those choices affect the health of the puppy, they will often try to "cash in" on a genetic guarantee. The difficult thing about many genetic diseases, is that, you cannot tell them apart from injury. A fall from a high place, dislocation of a hip from stepping into a hole, jumping out of a moving truck, can cause injury that can mirror genetic orthopedic problems, but there will be no way to prove if it was accidental or genetic. What you have to decide is what you can live with. Are you willing to simply trust the person you buy the dog from? or do you want a written guarantee? These types of details need to be worked out loooooog before you buy the puppy...if you did not do that...then its too late.

Worst case scenerio...you will be sued. The guy making the statement of it being the "end" of his pizza delivery career...makes me suspiscious that he might try to use that as a reason to file for disability or something along those lines... Best case scenerio he went to the hospital and the doctors laughed at him. I am not sure what state you are in....and you NEED to find out your local laws, NOW, to see if you are going to need a lawyer. Personally, it sounds to me like the dog wanted the pizza...not the pizza man...if he wanted the pizza man...he would have HAD the pizza man.

The key words are "Most commercial breeders know as much about dog raising and genetics, as the average show/hobby breeder as well." The average show and hobby breeder doesn't know squat. They simply go with the flow...breed CH to CH with no rym or reason, or will only breed to a dog in the top 20... thats not a breeding program. I am sorry...

My state has very strict laws concerning breeding, one litter, one stud dog, you need to be liscensed...however, our city's paper gets 100.00 per ten day ad...and there are noooo shortages of ads. Literally hundreds of them every day...we have four...read that FOUR inspectors for the ENTIRE STATE...those inspectors are not only in charge of inspecting breeders, but chicken farms, cattle farms, cow farms...etc...etc...The laws were put into place to cut down on the pet over population...the only ones who ever get inspected are the honest breeders who pay the 100+ liscensing fee...

The way that "large" operation care for their dogs is that they usually have staff. Mills, I don't care how small or how big are "mills" becasue they don't keep a clean operation. Those large farms that keep clean housing, food, and actually care for the dogs, I would lable farms. Some farms have thousands of dogs, they drive around the set up in a golf cart. They have state of the art kennels, with self cleaning runs or at least easy to clean run set ups. They have everything organized and labled...they have staff to care for the dogs and puppies. Many puppy farmers have large families and every one partakes in the puppy raising. If you have ever seen a good farm operation, you would understand. Those farmers care about those animals, even the ones they are going to slaughter...the good farmers take care of their charges...same with puppy farms. Smaller puppy farms are usually kept at a scale where two to three people can do the work needed. Again...I don't agree with it...but that is society.

Years ago I had a grey hound who had multiple strokes in her old age. Dogs recover from strokes a lot easier and quicker then people. I do not have any links...but if the stroke was mild, give her some time...she should come back as her brain re-works itself. Good luck

I always thought that the extreme slanted back made them look like rockets ready to launch...they are pretty when they move though.

Sandy B UKC does do inspections, as well as CKC (canadian)... UKC has a certian level of expection of care and sportmenship just ask AKC does. Many AKC people participate in UKC hunt tests because they feel they are better organized and laid out even. UKC required DNA before AKC would even consider it. Personally I think the only way that the "good" breeders are ever going to be able to compete with the commercial breeders and byb is to step up to the plate and make themselves heard.

The expanse of stupidty in this vast nation of ours...continues to astound me...

I'd bet money its a catahoula rott mix. ;)

Sandy B, What I have found, about dog breeders, that is parallel among those who are Commercial and those who are not, is one thing...the majorty of the really knowlegable ones, don't have time for the internet....and if they do, they keep their mouth shut and say nothing in public. To say, you know other wise, by "lurking" is nothing....I know from talking to these people, dealing with them through rescue, that there are those who know there stuff. I also know from talking to show people in person, listening to them online for the past 15 years as the internet has grown...how many of them know nothing. As I said...I don't agree with puppy farming....but I know that another has every right to breed as I do...and I will not challange that right as I do not want my rights challanged as well.

YEah...I have always said that we should get a cash reward from the government.. :) :)

I will disagree. I think that more commercial breeders love their charges then you think and they can be just as passionate about them...but about different things. They do c-section, morn old dogs, and many keep spayed brood bitches as pets unable to part with them. I don't agree with puppy farming, because I think dog breeding should be an art...but at the same time I understand. Yes it is about money. What breeds are selling, what breeds are easy to care for. Most commercial breeders know as much about dog raising and genetics, as the average show/hobby breeder as well.

I think show breeders really come in 3 classes. You have level one, who is usually a family or some one who shows and breeds for fun. Enjoys the dogs, does what they can to do things right. Some have lots of money to finish a dog...some don't...enjoyment is their goal. The second level is more serious, the breeder owner, the exhibitor. This is where, in my opinion, that politics begin to set in and can transform a breeder/exhibotor from type 2 to type 3. The third is all about ego and politics. You have those who are and wanna be. Those who are will claw their way up on the backs of their peers. Competition is fierce, and there is no holds bar on how to get that win. Some have money, some don't and get it however they can. These people cheat others out of co-ownerships, puppies, stud fees etc...its viscious.

Bully, most people call your first description a "hobby" breeder ;) Usually a BYB is some one who is just ignorant...and I too consider them the biggest problem... there are more BYB dogs then all the puppy farms combined.

"mills" are usually invisioned as being nasty dumps...and that is how I invision them. Commercial breeders or farms usually take emaculate care of the dogs but do have the goal of producing a profit, just as any farmer. I don't like the idea of puppy farms, but until hobby breeders can take on the public and make themselves more desirable, then they will remain.