Bensam

I think it's possible to find out the Owners, Directors, etc. of businesses in Australia through the "freedom of information" act. Is there anyone here who knows where to look for this on the 'net, could prove VERY interesting if we can find who is behind these puppy mills/shops? Any ideas?????

I read somewhere that dogs circle around before they lie down to make a bed, flattening the grass etc, this being an instinct from the wild.

QUESTION????? What are the Kennel Control Associations in Australia (in particular), USA and UK doing to protect the businesses of the registered breeders against this exploitation. We pay fees to these people to run our business, what are they doing for us? That's apart from helping to wipe out these puppy farms etc. Breeders have to agree to following a code of ethics to protect the wellbeing of their dogs which is supposed to be the aim of these associations. How can they distance themselves from the suffering of a lot of those farm puppies and still say they have the wellfare of dogs at heart?

They are Miniature Pinchers, - a big dog in a small body - the Australian standard is between 10 and 12inches at the shoulder, a big bigger in USA, they are a tough little dog, will go all day and there's nothing fragile about them. They come in black and tan, as in the pic. chocolate and tan, shades of red, a more rare blue and tan. They have a distinctive gait, the correct movement is a stylish hackney action, lifting the front legs high with a bend at the wrist, there are very few here in Aussie with the correct action, which is a pity as this is a charactistic of the breed. Part of the show standard here is the words "King of the toys" and they certainly think they are! Thanks for asking, I dont think there are many with little dogs on the forum, I love big dogs too, always had biggies when I was younger, but, you know, older and slower!!!

Over a lot of years I have owned big dogs, Afghans, Gordon Setters, Collies, medium dogs, Cocker Spaniels, Border Terriers, and small dogs, Miniature Pinschers mainly. All my dogs have been taught the basic obedience, sit stay, etc. and I must admit that my bigger dogs were all more consistantly obedient that the smaller ones. The reason for this was probably my own lazyness. My dogs have all been show dogs where they are on a leash for this all the time and know to mind their own business so the obedience was mainly for home and when I had them free running on the farm. The bigger guys just had to know to sit, stay etc when and where I wanted them to for both their own safety and visitors comfort, whereas if one of the smaller ones were not so keen to oblige, they could be picked up out of the way. See I told you my basic lazyness! But I agree, all dogs should know and obey the basics of good manners.

I cant think of any dog breed I know about that couldn't keep up or outrun a person given the right excercise to build it's muscle power. I've seen the way a friend's Pekinese could outrun him one day when it got loose at a show and had it's mind on getting to a nice little girl in season on the other side of the park, no-one else could help, we were all rolling around laughing at this 6ft man hurtling after this 10in. dog. :lol:

I have been around dogs all my life, (and it's a long one!). The only time I have been really bitten, drawing blood, was, believe it, when judging chihuahua's at a show one day I had one latch on to my thumb sinking it's teeth down beside the nail, hence the copious blood flow. Little devil would not let go, much to the exhibitor's horror. It hurt like h..ll, and there was me putting on a brave face while inwardly wanting to kill the little monster :x . Guess I've been lucky as over the years I've had some nasty ones to deal with, particularly when I had the grooming business.

Just a little add-on note, I'm certainly not saying that the workers should compete in the show ring or vice versa, the point I'm trying to make is that our show kelpies are structurally built the same as the workers (or going on the standard are supposed to be :lol: ) I think the Aussie show Kelpies appear to have followed the ideal type for working and it's a pity that the majority of them have probably never even seen a sheep.

Well, all I can say about that Champ. upon Champ. is if that is a true pic. of the dog, you certainly have a different type in the show ring over there and I can see why you wouldn't want to breed with that type for working apart from whatever instinct is missing, the conformation for a worker is all wrong. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the standard of the show kelpie, as written by our ANAKC and the standard for the working kelpie, as written by the WKC, are identical, ie. angulation, length of body, body type, feet, etc. Gen. Appearance (from show standard) "The general appearance shall be of a lithe, active dog of great quality, showing hard muscular condition combined with great suppleness of limb and conveying the capability of untiring work. It must be free from any suggestion of weediness." From 'Body'- (part) "The length of the dog from the forechest in a straight line to the buttocks, is greater than the height at the withers as 10 is to 9." I can appreciate that the worker is not going to have the polish of the show dog, but under the glamour there must still be the basic foundation.

Thanks, Hobbit. The first two links I had seen, the third one, lot of food for thought in that one! I didn't know there was such bad blood between the two factions, again what hope have dogs got when us humans can't act civilised! I missed a golden opportunity a few years ago. Chris Howe, mentioned in the third site, also had trotting horses and I knew him quite well through those, as I was also involved with them back then, never realised he was also the Kelpie man! I know pics can be very deceiving, I've had some of my dogs that don't even look like the same breed :lol: - the show kelpie in the pic. wouldn't win any awards here, too short in body, no front or rear angulation, but then as I said pics aren't always true. Thanks for the interesting info. I'll keep looking around on here, and while I can appreciate the differences in the working ability, I don't think there is a lot of difference in the basic conformation of our workers and showies.

I'll start by saying that I'm not really up with the background on Kelpies, but am interested to find out more. Was going to contact my friends with the Kelpies but they are away at the moment and I'm hate waiting for anything, so went looking. Looked in the Working Kelpie Assoc of Aust. and found that when they started the Assoc. they tried for some time to involve the State Canine Bodies in the formation of the Assoc. but, as the various State bodies are still doing, they could not get any co-operation, so went ahead on their own. Reading their standard for the breed, it is practically identical in word and meaning to the conformation standard while stressing that cosmetic features do not matter as much ie. eye shape,coat length, etc. It states 'medium size' while the conformation standard gives 18" to 20" dogs, 17" to 19" bitches, which I would take to be medium. Colours for conformation are basically the same, black, black/tan, etc. I have seen most of these colours in the conf. ring. Couldn't find the standard for the conformation Kelpie in America,(probably my fault, I still get lost on this thing!) but did find one of the American Working Assoc. sites where their standard for height was somewhat taller, dogs to 23". As mentioned in my last post, I know of some conformation bred Kelpies working on farms quite successfully and wonder if it's not so much inability to do this rather the lack of opportunity, it would be interesting to see what would happen if more had the chance. Another thing I will try and find out, one Kelpie I know of works sheep, competes in trials and shows in the conf. ring. I wonder if this bitch has to be registered with the Working Kelpie Assoc. to enter these trials? I hope this is taken as meant, a discussion, I'm just interested, not trying to start any arguements and would appreciate any comments.

I had not seen that article, as a matter of fact, I avoid that 'backyard'. He carries on about these 'designer dogs' being 'suitable' with never a mention of the hereditory or temperament problems in the individual breeds used to produce these. Dedicated breeders have been trying, and succeeding a lot of the time, to eliminate these problems from their lines and now this person spitefully has on National television a program which totally undermines the work being done AND promotes puppy farms! :evilbat: Hobbit, what do you think about this crossing of breeds, saying they're healthier, better temperament, etc. on these first generation crosses, how can anyone know this yet? This person is, in my opinion, creating a big problem, and encouraging more puppy farms.

May I just straighten out a couple of the comments in the Burkes Backyard article. Mr Burke has had a disagreement with the NSW Canine Assoc. Previously the segment would feature pure bred dogs but since the disagreement he has switched to (his description) "Designer Dogs" in other words, cross breds (probably from puppy millers, though I wont states this as fact as I dont want to be sued!). Even in the Kelpie segment he is putting a slur on the registered dogs. I have friends who breed and show Kelpies AND a number of their pups are also sold for working. It disgusts me that Mr Burke intimates that the registered dogs have not the brains to do the job they are bred for.

Victoria Canine Assoc, Australia have a code of ethics which includes a section on breeding, shortened down, it is basically- shall not mate any bitch under 12 months of age (although I think there is now another clause covering some of the larger breeds which states 'not to be mated before 18mths of age,). Thereafter not breed any bitch causing it to whelp more than twice in 18mths. Will not breed any bitch causing it to whelp more than 6 times without prior vet. cert. of fitness for further breeding. This is (no.4) of the code which covers care, breeding, sale of puppies, documention, registration,not selling to wholesalers, pet shops, etc. Pretty comprehensive and maybe a bit idealistic knowing human nature, but would be marvellous in the perfect world.

Hi, Rowie, You will have a great time down under, do let us know just when you are coming and where you will be going. I'm sure some of us will be near your destinations and would love to catch up with you. We can let you know some great places to visit when we know more about just where you will be.

I have voted 'yes'. A question --- is there any reason why we cant keep going back and voting multiple times, do they have any check as to how many times each person votes? If there's no check, maybe that's how there's so many 'no' votes? One has to be sneaky sometimes :lol:

Thanks BK, there may not be many of us, but I'm sure we can make a big noise between us. The legislation in Victoria does not cover this and I was hoping to find out if other States in Aussie were the same. Had hoped to get some feedback on the Aussie forum, but not so far. So guess we will just try and get it altered in Vic. Will be a start anyway.

BK, it is up to us to make sure the Gov. and other bodies who SHOULD be involved do not forget this issue. I have emailed the VCA and the Minister for Agric., who apparently is responsible for this type of legislation, again today. If you look under 'Government, Victoria' you will see the email addresses. I had also emailed Mr Bracks and will send him another if no reply from the Min. of Ag. I posted this on an Aussie forum and had hoped to get some support there, but so far there doesn't appear to be much. I'm afraid there may be a lot of ostriches out there! Never mind, at least I can keep trying, but I feel numbers is what we need.

This practice is disgusting. BK, I'm pleased to see you are going to take some action re this, but do you realise it is going on in your own country? While some are saying it's a custom in some overseas countries and practically turning a blind eye to it happening in Aussie, I think there is enough evidence to say it is happening here. The part that upsets me the most is that while these people are trying to excuse the practice they are burying their heads in the sand re the shocking cruelty that happens as part of that custom. I am emailing the relevent Government authorities, our RSPCA and the Victorian Canine Assoc. of which I am a member. So far the only one who has replied is the RSPCA. So perhaps you could get busy here as well, I'm sure the more agro they all get, the better chance of getting something done.

Hi, Deep, (hope you dont mind me calling you Deep, I'm a slow typist ). Those are lovely, I'd always had big dogs until they could outrun me :lol: and can see why you like those fellas. In an earlier post I mentioned liking dogs with a bit of elegence, in their own way I can see that in the pics. But poor old Chester left me speechless. I hope that when you can get one, it will be like the above and will post lots of pics.

And this guy has the nerve to put THAT on a web site!!! What hope do these dogs have if he cant see how bad it looks, surely he has looked at other sites, can anyone be that kennel blind! The puppy Dee has in the later photo her ears cropped. I know nothing about cropping, it's illegal in Aussie, but isn't it done when the pup is quite young? Also "Strangled by the chain", "died of unknown intestinal desease", sounded almost proud of this. Unbelievable!!!! Will be watching with interest to see if you can get anyone in authority to follow this up.

Some years ago I got my first Afghan, this back in the days when Affie temperament was a bit suss. My children were all old enough to understand the rules about Kush, if he's asleep, speak to wake him, never go near when he is eating, etc. One morning my son, 12 years old at the time, came out of his bedroom with a graze on his chin and said Kush bit him. My first question," what did you do to Kush?". "My fault, he was asleep and I pushed him off my bed" he said. Bathed his chin, put on a sticking plaster and off to school he went. He came in after school and said "you had better not go up to school for a while". "Why not?" says me. "Well, the teacher asked what happened to my face and I told her Mum's dog bit me". She said, "I hope your Mother had the dog put down". My delightful son replied "No, but I nearly got a hiding!" Needless to say, I avoided the school for some time :lol: .

Visited the Hermes site and have mixed feelings. I'm afraid they aren't what I would be looking for, but each to their own. While I do like big dogs, and always had them when I was younger, I do like some elegance, not just brute strength. Must go along with Roo, the front on 'Chester' is, I hope, the way he is standing and not the way he is built (sorry Deep), that front would really worry me. Roo, are there any of these type in UK, or just the plain old Bulldogs as we have here? And the 'elephant' chains are a worry too.

Horsefeathers I can understand your problem. One of my girls has a weird streak as well. She has always been extremely territorial, from a baby puppy she would not let anyone in the back yard, despite all my efforts and would like to attack any dog bigger than herself (she is all of 11inches at the shoulder!). As a pup she was socialised fully, she is a top show animal of her breed, and while I am the boss, she will try to take liberties when I am not around. She will be sitting on the couch and for no reason will suddenly fly at one of the other dogs. Thankfully they all just ignore her. Her breeder and I have discussed her many times, and on checking with 3 other owners of pups from that litter have discovered they all have different traits not usual to the breed. One will be fine then all of a sudden will decided that he will not come near his owner, sometimes for as much as 24 hours. Another will have what the owner classes as 'panic attacks' where he will hide under beds, couchs, etc. The only thing the breeder (and this is a careful, dedicated breeder) can come up with is that the mother had a toxic infection when the pups were born and it was a fight to save mother and pups. Perhaps this may have affected the brains of these pups as another litter from the same bitch have never had anything like this. I have the only bitch in the litter and have never bred her, for while I am inclined to think the behaviour is not hereditory but medical, I would not chance it and perhaps she would not be a good mother anyway. I am sure that not all different behaviour can always be put down to the owners fault, there must also be circumstances that we are still in the dark about.

Reading the previous posts I was amazed at some of those 'terms' and would not be buying any pup under some of those conditions. ON THE OTHER HAND - when I was breeding dogs, I had a type of contract with any novice owner, - any bitch I sold for showing (others had to be speyed) were on the condition that if the new owner wanted to breed the bitch, they had to consult with me re time to breed, choice of sire, placement of puppies. This was done solely to hopefully protect the bitch and the breed. It was always a discussion, not an arguement and I never had any problems.