gooeydog

BTW, just in case anyone was confused on what I said about the AC officer who said Goo's a choc. lab, Goo is a 50-something lb brindle pit bull with hacked off ears. I still don't understand how an AC officer could mistake her for a chocolate lab.

[quote] I wonder what sort of 'experts' are going to be judging whether a dog is a pitbull or not?[/quote] Probably the same kind as the AC officer who told me Goo was a beautiful and well-behaved [i]chocolate lab[/i] :lol: . My aunt's BF is from Newark NJ (he's a police officer there), and he definitely doesn't know a pit bull when he sees one. Any dog that is short or muscular, and has a fairly large head is a pit bull to him.

What really gets me is that they're calling it [i]"Responsible Pit Bull Ownership Licensing Act"[/i] :x :o :mad: Mei-Mei and HF, look at this link, and imagine how many [i]"not pit bulls"[/i] will be caught up in this stuff :x [url]http://members.aol.com/radogz/find.html[/url] And if anyone else writes to them about how foolish this law is, you might make it clear that you won't be coming anywhere near NJ because you like to take your dog on vacations, and you don't want to risk them getting caught up in this irrational law. :lol:

[quote name='bullygirl29532']I know some won't agree w/ me but... I think this is a great idea for New jersey. I use to live there and in many parts of that state owning a pit bull is a status symbol. people fight these dogs behind project in Newark and Camden. they use pits to terrify their landlords and neighbors into silence. they mistreat and abuse these good hearted creatures by feeding them gunpowder w. raw meat...i've seen all these things happen and alot more. Not just to pits but boxers, rotties, mastiffs and shepards. i think this law sould apply to all dog owners in this state. owning a gun is not a simple thing in NJ and having a dog that could cause as much damage shouldn't be either. and this insures the proper upkeep and maintence for a breed w/ a bad rep. May be it goes to far in some respects but if carried out properly it could be a good thing.[/quote] All these problems would not exist if laws that are already in place were enforced. Dog fighting is illegal in every state in the US. If the lawmakers would enforce that law, people would not be behind the projects fighting their dogs. There are animal cruelty laws in effect already, so if they were enforced, the gunpowder feeding and abuse would not be happening, either. The people who are abusing/fighting the dogs aren't going to follow the rules anyway, only the responsible, law abiding people will suffer.

Reed, Horsefeathers makes some very good points. A lot of innocent dogs and dog owners are going to be "punished" if this legislation is allowed to pass. Check out the regulations a "pit bull" owner must comply with (the bold print is my comments): (4) to display, in a conspicuous manner, a sign on the premises where the dog is kept and maintained warning that a pit bull is on the premises, which sign shall be visible and legible from 50 feet of the enclosure required pursuant to paragraph (5) of this subsection; [b]A pit bull owner has to have a huge sign on their property "warning that there is a pit bull" on their property. If people didn't think the dog was bad before, they certainly will after they see that.[/b] (5) if the dog is to be kept outside for any period of time, to immediately erect and maintain an enclosure for the dog on the property where it will be kept and maintained, which has sound sides, top and bottom to prevent the dog from escaping by climbing, jumping or digging and within a fence of at least six feet in height separated by at least three feet from the confined area. The licensee shall securely lock the enclosure to prevent the entry of the general public and to preclude any release or escape of the dog by an unknowing child or other person. The dog shall be confined in the enclosure when on the property where it will be kept and maintained or, if taken out of the enclosure, securely muzzled and restrained with a tether approved by the animal control officer, or other official designated by the municipality, and having a minimum tensile strength sufficiently in excess of that required to restrict the dog's movements to a radius of no more than three feet from the licensee and under the direct supervision of the licensee; [b]A pit bull owned in affected areas will have to stay in a small kennel (it's difficult to roof a large kennel) when outside, unless of course their owner muzzles them, hooks up their "approved" 3 ft leash, and takes them for a short walk (after all, they can't go farther from the dog's kennel than specified in the muncipality's BSL). Being a somewhat brachycephalic breed, it's actually dangerous for them to have to be muzzled in summer, just to go out for a walk. [/b] (6) to obtain and maintain liability insurance, or a bond if insurance is not available, in an amount determined by the municipality to cover any damage or injury caused by the dog. The liability insurance, which may be separate from any other homeowner policy, shall contain a provision requiring the municipality in which the licensee resides to be named as an additional insured for the sole purpose of being notified by the insurance company of any cancellation, termination or expiration of the liability insurance policy; [b]Pit bull owners will have to find an insurance company that will insure their dog, since most will stop once the breed is deemed "dangerous". They will then have to take out a large (huge actually) amount of coverage, just in case their muzzled, leashed dog manages to bite someone. [/b] (7) to not walk the dog further than the distance from the licensee's residence as may be established by the municipality; and [b]There's going to be a set distance pit bull owners can walk their dogs!?[/b] ( to allow the animal control officer, code enforcement official, or other official designated by the municipality to inspect the enclosure and the licensee's property at least monthly to determine compliance with this section. [b]At least once a month, a stranger is going to come and "inspect" the dog's "containment system", as well as poke around to see if they can find any reason to cite the owner on voilating the BSL.[/b] 4. a. A municipality may, by ordinance, fix the sum to be paid annually for a license issued pursuant to subsection a. of section 3 of this act and for each renewal thereof, which sum shall be not less than $150 nor more than $700. In the absence of any local ordinance, the fee for the license shall be $150. [b]Pit bull owners are going to have to pay [i]at least[/i] $150, and may have to pay $700 a year, just to get their dogs licensed. [/b] [b]Pit bulls are (in general) high energy dogs, and need an outlet for their energy, or they'll find things to entertain themselves. This ordinance will make it difficult for owners to get their dogs sufficient exercise, and will result in many dogs developing psychological problems. In addition, it will make it impossible for pit bull owners to socialize their dogs, and if it is passed, there will be a huge amount of dumped pit bulls when owners who don't want to be bothered drop them off. I'm only 17 yrs old, so this legislation also means that if I was in that area, I wouldn't be able to walk my own dog (even if she was muzzled, leashed, etc), because I would (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) be "harboring" her, and that is not permitted by this legislation. [/b]

This is off the ADOA site ([url]www.adoa.org[/url]).... 10/23/02 NJ PROPOSES STATE-WIDE BREED SPECIFIC LEGISLATION ADOA Board Member Melanie Tierney advises us of the following: ASSEMBLY, No. 2906 STATE OF NEW JERSEY 210th LEGISLATURE INTRODUCED OCTOBER 10, 2002 Sponsored by: Assemblyman JOHN J. BURZICHELLI District 3 (Salem, Cumberland and Gloucester) SYNOPSIS The "Responsible Pit Bull Ownership Licensing Act"; authorizes municipalities to require a license for a person to own, keep or harbor a pit bull. CURRENT VERSION OF TEXT As introduced. An Act concerning persons who own, keep, or harbor certain kinds of dogs and supplementing Title 4 of the Revised Statutes. Be It Enacted by the Senate and General Assembly of the State of New Jersey: 1. This act shall be known, and may be cited, as the "Responsible Pit Bull Ownership Licensing Act." 2. As used in this act: "Animal control officer" means a certified municipal animal control officer or, in the absence of such an officer, the chief law enforcement officer of the municipality or that officer's designee; and "Pit bull" means any dog of the breed American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, or Staffordshire Terrier, or any dog determined to be a pit bull type dog pursuant to subsection c. of section 3 of this act. 3. a. A municipality may, by ordinance, require any person residing within the municipality who owns, keeps or harbors a pit bull in the municipality to obtain an annual license to own, keep or harbor such a dog. No such license shall be issued to any person under the age of 18 years. This license, and any requirements or conditions attached thereto, shall be in addition to any license or other authorization required pursuant to P.L.1941, c.151 (C.4:19-15.1 et seq.), P.L.1989, c.307 (C.4:19-17 et seq.) or any other law. b. A municipality adopting an ordinance pursuant to subsection a. of this section may require the license applicant to provide: (1) information about the breed, sex, age, color and markings of the dog and whether it is of a long- or short-haired variety; (2) information about any licenses issued for the dog pursuant to P.L.1941, c.151 (C.4:19-15.1 et seq.), P.L.1989, c.307 (C.4:19-17 et seq.) or any other law; (3) the name, street and post-office addresses, and telephone number of the license applicant; (4) the license applicant's record, if any, of criminal convictions or of convictions or other adjudications for animal cruelty; and (5) any other information the municipality deems appropriate to protect the public health, safety, and welfare. c. (1) A municipality adopting an ordinance pursuant to subsection a. of this section may require any person residing within the municipality who owns, keeps or harbors any kind of dog to provide proof that the dog is not a pit bull. If breed records are not available or the dog is a mongrel, hybrid, or mixed breed, the municipality may by visual inspection and use of detailed professional standards and illustrations decide if the dog is a pit bull type dog. In lieu of visual inspection, the municipality may require submission of a photo or photos of the dog for the purposes of this paragraph. (2) Any person who owns, keeps or harbors a dog determined by a municipality pursuant to this subsection to be a pit bull may appeal that decision to the municipal court, which shall conduct a hearing de novo on the matter. Appeal from the decision of the municipal court may be made by the person who owns, keeps or harbors the dog or by the municipality by filing with the Superior Court, Law Division, in accordance with the Rules Governing the Courts of the State of New Jersey pertaining to appeals from courts of limited jurisdiction. The Superior Court shall hear the appeal by conducting a hearing de novo in the manner established by those rules for appeals from courts of limited jurisdiction. d. A municipality may attach such conditions to the issuance, renewal, or retention of a license pursuant to this act as the municipality deems appropriate to protect the public health, safety, and welfare, including but not limited to requiring the license applicant or licensee to comply with the following conditions: (1) to not have been convicted of any criminal offense set forth in chapters 11 (Criminal Homicide), 12 (Assault; Reckless Endangering; Threats), 13 (Kidnapping and Related Offenses: Coercion), 14 (Sexual Offenses), 15 (Robbery), 17 (Arson, Criminal Mischief, and Other Property Destruction), 18 (Burglary and Other Criminal Intrusion), 20 (Theft and Related Offenses), 24 (Offenses Against the Family, Children and Incompetents), 25 (Domestic Violence), 35 (Controlled Dangerous Substances), 36 (Drug Paraphernalia), 37 (Gambling Offenses), 39 (Firearms, Other Dangerous Weapons and Instruments of Crime), or 41 (Racketeering) of Title 2C of the New Jersey Statutes, or of an attempt or conspiracy to commit any such criminal offense listed in this paragraph; (2) to not have been convicted of, or otherwise adjudicated of violating, any animal cruelty offense set forth in chapter 22 of Title 4 of the Revised Statutes; (3) to not be a member of a household that includes a person who has been convicted of any criminal offense, or who has been convicted of or otherwise adjudicated of violating any animal cruelty offense, listed in paragraphs (1) or (2) of this subsection; (4) to display, in a conspicuous manner, a sign on the premises where the dog is kept and maintained warning that a pit bull is on the premises, which sign shall be visible and legible from 50 feet of the enclosure required pursuant to paragraph (5) of this subsection; (5) if the dog is to be kept outside for any period of time, to immediately erect and maintain an enclosure for the dog on the property where it will be kept and maintained, which has sound sides, top and bottom to prevent the dog from escaping by climbing, jumping or digging and within a fence of at least six feet in height separated by at least three feet from the confined area. The licensee shall securely lock the enclosure to prevent the entry of the general public and to preclude any release or escape of the dog by an unknowing child or other person. The dog shall be confined in the enclosure when on the property where it will be kept and maintained or, if taken out of the enclosure, securely muzzled and restrained with a tether approved by the animal control officer, or other official designated by the municipality, and having a minimum tensile strength sufficiently in excess of that required to restrict the dog's movements to a radius of no more than three feet from the licensee and under the direct supervision of the licensee; (6) to obtain and maintain liability insurance, or a bond if insurance is not available, in an amount determined by the municipality to cover any damage or injury caused by the dog. The liability insurance, which may be separate from any other homeowner policy, shall contain a provision requiring the municipality in which the licensee resides to be named as an additional insured for the sole purpose of being notified by the insurance company of any cancellation, termination or expiration of the liability insurance policy; (7) to not walk the dog further than the distance from the licensee's residence as may be established by the municipality; and (8) to allow the animal control officer, code enforcement official, or other official designated by the municipality to inspect the enclosure and the licensee's property at least monthly to determine compliance with this section. e. A municipality adopting an ordinance pursuant to this section may provide that it apply only to dogs born after such date as the municipality may establish in the ordinance and to dogs born before that date if they have not been properly licensed pursuant to P.L.1941, c.151 (C.4:19-15.1 et seq.). 4. a. A municipality may, by ordinance, fix the sum to be paid annually for a license issued pursuant to subsection a. of section 3 of this act and for each renewal thereof, which sum shall be not less than $150 nor more than $700. In the absence of any local ordinance, the fee for the license shall be $150. b. The municipality may provide for a reduction in the annual fee or attach fewer conditions to the issuance of a license under this act, or both, if the applicant provides proof to the satisfaction of the municipality that the person has completed an approved behavior training class for the dog. 5. A licensee under this act shall: a. notify the licensing authority, local police department or force, and the animal control officer if the dog is at large, or has attacked a human being or severely injured or killed a cat, dog, or livestock other than poultry; b. notify the licensing authority, local police department or force, and the animal control officer within 24 hours of the death, sale or donation of the dog; c. prior to selling or donating the dog, inform the prospective owner that the dog is a pit bull subject to this act; d. upon the sale or donation of the dog to a person residing in a different municipality, notify the department and the licensing authority, police department or force, and animal control officer of that municipality of the transfer of ownership and the name, address and telephone number of the new owner; and e. in addition to any license fee required pursuant to P.L.1941, c.151 (C.4:19-15.1 et seq.), section 1 of P.L.1983, c.172 (C.4:19-15.3b), section 1 of P.L.1983, c.181 (C.4:19-15.3c), and P.L.1989, c.307 (C.4:19-17 et seq.), pay the license fee required by section 4 of this act. 6. a. Any person who violates this act or any ordinance adopted pursuant thereto shall be subject to a fine of up to $1,000 per day of the violation and license suspension or revocation. Each day's continuance of the violation shall constitute a separate and distinct violation. b. A municipality may seize and impound any pit bull if the person owning, keeping or harboring the dog violates any provision of this act or any ordinance adopted pursuant thereto. Any dog so seized and impounded shall be placed in a no-kill shelter until either the animal is properly adopted or dies of natural causes. The violator shall be liable to the municipality in which the dog is impounded for the costs and expenses of seizing and impounding the dog. The municipality may establish by ordinance a schedule of these costs and expenses. c. The municipal court shall have jurisdiction to enforce this section. 7. All fines and fees collected or received by the municipality pursuant to this act shall be deposited in a special account and used by the municipality to administer and enforce the provisions of this act and P.L.1989, c.307 (C.4:19-17 et seq.). 8. Any action undertaken pursuant to the provisions of this act shall be deemed to be an exercise of a government function and shall be subject to the provisions of the "New Jersey Tort Claims Act," N.J.S.59:1-1 et seq. 9. The provisions of this act shall not apply to any governmental entity, or any person authorized by a governmental entity, that owns, keeps or harbors a pit bull used for law enforcement activities. 10. The provisions and requirements of this act shall be in addition to those of P.L.1941, c.151 (C.4:19-15.1 et seq.), section 1 of P.L.1983, c.172 (C.4:19-15.3b), section 1 of P.L.1983, c.181 (C.4:19-15.3c), P.L.1989, c.307 (C.4:19-17 et seq.), or any other law. 11. This act shall take effect on the 90th day after enactment. STATEMENT This bill provides the authority for a municipality to regulate the ownership of pit bulls and pit bull type dogs. Specifically, the bill provides that a municipality may, by ordinance, require any person residing within the municipality who owns, keeps or harbors a pit bull (or pit bull type) dog in the municipality to obtain an annual license to own, keep or harbor such a dog. No such license would be issued to any person under the age of 18 years. This licensing of the dog owner would be in addition to any licensing of the dog itself already required under existing law. Under the bill, a municipality may require a license applicant to provide: (1) information about the breed, sex, age, color and markings of the dog and whether it is of a long- or short-haired variety; (2) information about any licenses issued for the dog; (3) the name, street and post-office addresses, and telephone number of the license applicant; (4) the license applicant's record, if any, of criminal convictions or of convictions or other adjudications for animal cruelty; and (5) any other information the municipality deems appropriate to protect the public health, safety, and welfare. The bill also authorizes a municipality to require any person residing within the municipality who owns, keeps or harbors any kind of dog to provide proof that the dog is not a pit bull. If breed records are not available or the dog is a mongrel, hybrid, or mixed breed, the municipality may by visual inspection and use of detailed professional standards and illustrations decide if the dog is a pit bull type dog. In lieu of visual inspection, the municipality may require submission of a photo or photos of the dog for that purpose. The bill establishes an appeal procedure in the event a dog owner disputes the municipality's determination as to whether a dog is a pit bull type dog. In addition, the bill authorizes a municipality to attach such conditions to the issuance, renewal, or retention of a pit bull owner's license as the municipality deems appropriate to protect the public health, safety, and welfare, including but not limited to requiring the license applicant or licensee to comply with the following conditions: (1) to not have been convicted of any of various criminal offenses listed in the bill; (2) to not have been convicted of, or otherwise adjudicated of violating, any animal cruelty offense; (3) to not be a member of a household that includes a person who has been convicted of any criminal offense, or who has been convicted of or otherwise adjudicated of violating any animal cruelty offense, listed in the bill; (4) to display, in a conspicuous manner, a warning sign on the premises where the dog is kept; (5) if the dog is to be kept outside for any period of time, to immediately erect, maintain, and use an enclosure for the dog according to certain specifications set forth in the bill; and, if the dog is to be taken out of the enclosure, to securely muzzle and restrain the animal according to certain specifications set forth in the bill; (6) to obtain and maintain liability insurance as specified in the bill; (7) to not walk the dog further than the distance from the licensee's residence as may be established by the municipality; and (8) to allow the animal control officer, code enforcement official, or other official designated by the municipality to inspect the enclosure and the licensee's property at least monthly to determine compliance with these requirements. The fee for a pit bull owner's license, as established by the municipality, would be between $150 and $700 annually. Under the bill, a municipality could provide for a fee reduction or attach fewer conditions to the issuance of a license, or both, if the applicant provides proof to the satisfaction of the municipality that the person has completed an approved behavior training class for the dog. A licensed pit bull owner would also be required under the bill to: (1) notify certain authorities if the dog is at large, or has attacked a human being or severely injured or killed a cat, dog, or livestock other than poultry; (2) notify certain authorities within 24 hours of the death, sale or donation of the dog; (3) prior to selling or donating the dog, inform the prospective owner that the dog is a pit bull subject to this bill; and (4) upon the sale or donation of the dog to a person residing in a different municipality, notify certain authorities in that municipality of the transfer of ownership and the name, address and telephone number of the new owner. The bill provides that any person violating the bill or any ordinance adopted pursuant thereto would be subject to a fine of up to $1,000 per day of the violation as well as license suspension or revocation. The bill also provides that a municipality may seize and impound any pit bull if the person owning, keeping or harboring the dog violates any provision of this bill or any ordinance adopted pursuant thereto. Any dog so seized and impounded must be placed in a no-kill shelter until either the animal is properly adopted or dies of natural causes. The violator would be liable to the municipality in which the dog is impounded for the costs and expenses of seizing and impounding the dog. All fines and fees collected or received by a municipality pursuant to this bill would be required to be deposited in a special account to be used by the municipality to administer and enforce the provisions of this bill and P.L.1989, c.307 (C.4:19-17 et seq.) (the vicious and potentially dangerous dog law). And here's an update from 12/4, along with a list of people to contact... 12/04/02 STATE CONSIDERING BREED SPECIFIC LEGISLATION On October 10, 2002, Assemblyman John J. Bruzichelli and Assemblyman Gary L. Guear, Sr. introduced A2906, the "Responsible Pit Bull Ownership Licensing Act" which authorizes municipalities to require a license for a person to own, keep or harbor a pit bull. (Burzichelli has backed out his support of this bill, as have a few others due to it's obvious anti-pit bull wording.) Specifically, the bill provides that a municipality may, by ordinance, require any person residing within the municipality who owns, keeps or harbors a pit bull (or pit bull type) dog in the municipality to obtain an annual license to own, keep or harbor such a dog. No such license would be issued to any person under the age of 18 years. This licensing of the dog owner would be in addition to any licensing of the dog itself already required under existing law. Under the bill, a municipality may require a license applicant to provide: (1) information about the breed, sex, age, color and markings of the dog and whether it is of a long- or short-haired variety; (2) information about any licenses issued for the dog; (3) the name, street and post-office addresses, and telephone number of the license applicant; (4) the license applicant's record, if any, of criminal convictions or of convictions or other adjudications for animal cruelty; and (5) any other information the municipality deems appropriate to protect the public health, safety, and welfare. The bill also authorizes a municipality to require any person residing within the municipality who owns, keeps or harbors any kind of dog to provide proof that the dog is not a pit bull. If breed records are not available or the dog is a mongrel, hybrid, or mixed breed, the municipality may by visual inspection and use of detailed professional standards and illustrations decide if the dog is a pit bull type dog. In lieu of visual inspection, the municipality may require submission of a photo or photos of the dog for that purpose. The bill stablishes an appeal procedure in the event a dog owner disputes the municipality's determination as to whether a dog is a pit bull type dog. In addition, the bill authorizes a municipality to attach such conditions to the issuance, renewal, or retention of a pit bull owner's license as the municipality deems appropriate to protect the public health, safety, and welfare, including but not limited to requiring the license applicant or licensee to comply with the following conditions: (1) to not have been convicted of any of various criminal offenses listed in the bill; (2) to not have been convicted of, or otherwise adjudicated of violating, any animal cruelty offense; (3) to not be a member of a household that includes a person who has been convicted of any criminal offense, or who has been convicted of or otherwise adjudicated of violating any animal cruelty offense, listed in the bill; (4) to display, in a conspicuous manner, a warning sign on the premises where the dog is kept; (5) if the dog is to be kept outside for any period of time, to immediately erect, maintain, and use an enclosure for the dog according to certain specifications set forth in the bill; and, if the dog is to be taken out of the enclosure, to securely muzzle and restrain the animal according to certain specifications set forth in the bill; (6) to obtain and maintain liability insurance as specified in the bill; (7) to not walk the dog further than the distance from the licensee's residence as may be established by the municipality; and (8) to allow the animal control officer, code enforcement official, or other official designated by the municipality to inspect the enclosure and the licensee's property at least monthly to determine compliance with these requirements. The fee for a pit bull owner's license, as established by the municipality, would be between $150 and $700 annually. Under the bill, a municipality could provide for a fee reduction or attach fewer conditions to the issuance of a license, or both, if the applicant provides proof to the satisfaction of the municipality that the person has completed an approved behavior training class for the dog. A licensed pit bull owner would also be required under the bill to: (1) notify certain authorities if the dog is at large, or has attacked a human being or severely injured or killed a cat, dog, or livestock other than poultry; (2) notify certain authorities within 24 hours of the death, sale or donation of the dog; (3) prior to selling or donating the dog, inform the prospective owner that the dog is a pit bull subject to this bill; and (4) upon the sale or donation of the dog to a person residing in a different municipality, notify certain authorities in that municipality of the transfer of ownership and the name, address and telephone number of the new owner. The bill provides that any person violating the bill or any ordinance adopted pursuant thereto would be subject to a fine of up to $1,000 per day of the violation as well as license suspension or revocation. The bill also provides that a municipality may seize and impound any pit bull if the person owning, keeping or harboring the dog violates any provision of this bill or any ordinance adopted pursuant thereto. Any dog so seized and impounded must be placed in a no-kill shelter until either the animal is properly adopted or 21 days when the animal will be humanely euthanized. The violator would be liable to the municipality in which the dog is impounded for the costs and expenses of seizing and impounding the dog. All fines and fees collected or received by a municipality pursuant to this bill would be required to be deposited in a special account to be used by the municipality to administer and enforce the provisions of this bill and P.L.1989, c.307 (C.4:19-17 et seq.) (the vicious and potentially dangerous dog law). Listed below are the assembly members to contact: Assemblymen: Robert Smith, Chair [email]AsmRSmith@njleg.org[/email] 856-232-6700 Douglas R Fisher, Vice Chair [email]AsmFisher@njleg.org[/email] 856-251-9801 Herb Conaway [email]AsmConaway@njleg.org[/email] 856-461-3997 Michael J. Doherty [email]AsmDoherty@njleg.org[/email] 908-835-0552 George Geist [email]AsmGeist@njleg.org[/email] 856-227-1881

I like that one, and this one too... by the same person. [url]http://www.flyingdogpress.com/casehis.html[/url]

[quote name='corgilady']He also bowed while up on the couch, and kind of bent sideways with his head on the seat and BARKED at me for like, 10 minutes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had my hand on his head and I felt his ears go back like they do when he feels guilty. He then jumped up and ran off and ---- he had peed all over the couch![/quote] Joey the Chi does the sideways head thing, and he is very submissive. He doesn't bark, but he's never really barked at any of us, so that may just be him. He's also a submissive pee-er, and sometimes I think he gets so into his submissive postures that he just starts peeing, and then he gets "embarrased" and can't stop :lol: . Koda may have just had to pee though, and was a little disturbed that you weren't listening :roll:

[quote]I completely agree with you. Although I have never owned a pit myself I love the "breed" and am actually writing a paper on them for my animal welfare class. Believe it or not i have had great difficulty finding bad press (actual legitimate sources) on pit bulls and was wondering if you could give me the name of the show or knew of any other resourses bashing pits. [/quote] You can check pretty much any news station's archives and find some bad press, although it may or may not be credible. MSNBC aired a [i]wonderful[/i] :roll: show about dangerous dogs last year, on which a rep from the Michigan Humane Society spouted out tons of false information. Some of the things I remember from it were pit bulls having 1000 lbs "clamping power" in their jaws, having locking jaws, and the shelter rep demonstrated: a pit bull in their shelter being "game" for playing tug, and being aggressive because it chewed up a leather collar. He then said that the dog could have been bred and it's pups sold for thousands of dollars apiece, but it was going to be PTS because pit bulls are too "aggressive by nature" to be adopted out. Another shelter worker described all pit bulls as unpredictable, saying, "they'll wag their tails one minute and bite you the next". They had an interview with a dogfighter (who was in prison at the time), who's dog had attacked his stepson, and he carried on about "the sport" for a while. Also, FX has a show called "when good pets go bad" (or something along those lines) that airs pretty often, and you might be able to use that.

Oops... :oops: . Sorry about that.

There's a ton of theories out there about how and why pit bulls came to be, and what their original purpose was. I tend to think that they [i]were[/i] a "multi-purpose" dog, not just a fighter (of bulls/dogs/bears), simply because of the living conditions they lived in. Most appeared to be owned by working class people, so it seems strange that they would have a dog around [i]only[/i] for fighting, and that that would be the [i]only[/i] thing they bred for. Not sure if that makes any sense at all... :lol:

It [i]can[/i] happen because of gross negligence. Look at all the pit bull (and other "bad" breed) attacks you hear about on the news... poorly bred, unsocialized, untrained dogs running loose, parents leaving their kids alone with large dog while they run to the store, dogs chained in the backyard guarding the drugs, and kids wanders back there... dog "does it's job". It didn't know any better. It can also be due to ignorance (I suppose that could be considered a form of negligence)... the owners didn't know the pit bull could jump the 4 ft fence, or thought the dog "knew better" than to bite their child just because it jumped on their head, or "there was no warning" because they didn't know enough to se it coming. You're right that no sound dog should rip a person to shreds without a reason, but what constitutes a reason to a dog? For example, if a dog loves to chase and kill deer, cats, birds, and any other "prey", will he/she realize (without any training) that the child running around next door [i]isn't[/i] "prey"? They think differently than we do, and we have to respect it, even if we sometimes don't understand it.

[quote name='bullygirl29532']Recently i've noticed alot of you guys making off hand comments about bad stories you have heard concerning family pets suddenly turning on children in the home. .................................................................................................. Second question i have is there anyway to make your dog love all parties in the home the same? My husband is starting to notice that "our" dog is really "my" dog. and i think he's getting jealous.[/quote] Keep in mind that dogs don't just "turn" on family members... they will and [i]do[/i] give signs of their displeasure with the situation. The problem is though, that many owners don't pay close enough attention to notice the signs the dogs are giving, and sometimes the signs are very subtle. They can be as simple as a growl, snap, or even a strange look, but it's up to you to learn to read your dog and act upon her signals. I found this interesting... some dogs show dominance by leaning their necks/heads over another dog's neck/back/head, and a hug from a person can "set off" dogs that consider themselves dominant, or who are not used to the motion. I know it probably doesn't apply to your situation, but I just found it interesting, and it demonstrates the differences in "language" between us and them. I posted my experiences with my aunt's baby and her dogs in another thread, I think this the link for it if you don't feel like looking for it [url]http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=2264[/url] . As for her liking you more than your husband, it may just be her personal preference, and nothing will change it. There are some things you can try that might help... Let everyone (even your daughter can do this if she can say "sit" or "down") work with her on her obedience. This will reinforce to her that she is lowest in your house "chain of command", and will help to prevent any dominance problems that may occur later, and will allow everyone to establish a working relationship with the dog. Let him feed her on some days, while you feed her on others. Let him take her for walks and playtime, so they can strengthen their bond. Again, these things may not change anything, but they're not bad things to do even if they don't work for that, as they'll help to keep her from getting to be [i]too[/i] much of a "one person" dog.

With so many breeds/dogs for sale, I'm sure they have a sickly dog to fit everyone's needs... [url]http://www.wizardofclaws.com[/url] Make sure to read the "special instructions for toy breed puppies" page... [url]http://www.wizardofclaws.com/find.htm[/url] Surely someone wants to buy the "rare" double dapple dachshund... or the $3000 yorkie... right :roll: And look... this site has the definitions for "teacup" and "toy" dogs... [url]http://www.teacupspuppies.com/[/url] :o

I dunno what happened there... I tried to edit my post, but I guess I wasn't logged in, so it posted twice :oops:

[quote]Wrapping presents are just a little too much for me[/quote] But the paper's the best part :lol: I wrap Goo's x-mas present [i]only[/i] because she loves pulling off the paper and shredding it into a little pile :roll: I don't really have much advice for you Aroura (haven't been in that situation, yet), but I will say that being alpha is different from being a "tyrant". Lily shouldn't be allowed to make Tessa that afraid, you do need to step in on that and make sure to stop it. Lily can be the dominant dog, but [i]you[/i] are the one in charge, and what you say goes, no arguments, no second guessing. Set the "rules of conduct" and make sure to follow through on them consistently. :lol:

[quote name='HazelNutMeg']My methods did seem to be working (some of which were a lot like yours, start far away, etc.) and I have been trying SOOO hard not to show my emotions when someone comes by.[/quote] Peppermint supposedly helps to mask the smell of your fear, I'm not sure how much truth there is in that, but it may be worth a try :lol: You can also talk to her (or yourself if you prefer that), calmly, and it will calm both you and her down (don't do this if she's throwing a "fit" about something, as it will reinforce that behavior). I've also heard that whistling works in place of talking, and if you're really tense, it may be better since she won't be able to pick up on the tone of your voice. [quote]Mainly when a dog comes by, since we live in such a small town (i know it wrong :oops:) nobody really keeps their dog on leash. This creates more stress for me, because I can't control BOTH dogs!! I don't know what that other dog will do, I have had some younger dogs come RUNNING up to Hazel, and it was scary! [/quote] There are a lot of dogs around here that run loose, and Goo (and Annie too) is very dog aggressive. The best thing to do when you see a strange dog coming toward you is turn and go the other way. If you don't have time for that, try to keep the leash loose, but be sure you can get her under control quickly should she lunge. If you have animal control where you live, call them and report the loose dogs, especially if they're aggressive. [quote]I've never really looked at it that way. I always figured i had more control that way, but I guess Hazel doesn't have any then right? And if she feels she has NO control over the situation, well I don't blame her for acting out aggressivly then! :cry: [/quote] Not only that, but since you're the one who "took" the her ability to defend herself, she [i]needs[/i] you to defend her. Here's how it was explained to me (by a friend who's helped me figure out a lot of Goo's problems): If [i]you[/i] were deathly afraid of something... let's say kids (or whatever you're afraid of); and your parents hobbled you so you couldn't run, tied your hands so you couldn't fight them off, and made you sit in the middle of a school playground, imagine how you'd feel. Even if no one actually touched you, or even looked at you, wouldn't you still be afraid, just knowing they were there? And how would you feel towards the person who had "rendered you defenseless", then surrounded you with frightening things? Would you trust them to protect you? Sure, eventually after you had been there for a while, you'd probably realize that [i]those[/i] kids weren't so scary, but what about other kids? And would you ever really [i]like[/i] kids? Or would you just tolerate them because it's expected of you and you want to make people happy? Now, what if your parents held your hand, and slowly brought you closer to the things that you were afraid of, never being close enough for you to be afraid or uneasy, all the while handing you tasty pieces of chocolate for being calm? Which do you think you'd prefer? It's also kinda like teaching a child to swim... there are some parents who just throw them overboard, and let them learn... then there are others who slowly introduce them to the water, making sure it's an enjoyable experience for them. Both (usually :lol: ) result in the child learning to swim, but they can affect the child's mindset (about the water, swimming, their parents, and anything/one else that was involved) in different ways. [quote]I'm sure Hazel tried telling me before, but being human, I didn't understand that that wasn't working. I've never had an Aggressive dog before Hazel, I didn't know what to do.[/quote] The important thing though is that when you did realize it was wrong for her, you got her away from it, and now you're trying to do what's best for her. :lol:

[quote name='K'] was so way off mark I felt I had to comment, Goo is practically an expert on dog demeanour icluding aggression,anxiety,and dominance issues...I have always found Goo's advice to be very insightfull and usefull and above all workable...I have been known to copy/paste some of it to another site I belong to and try to make out I knew what I was talking about :oops: (hope you don't mind Goo :wink: ) [/quote] K, I'm definitely not an expert on this stuff, but you can use whatever you want :wink:

[quote name='HazelNutMeg']How am I supose to ever train her not to be so afraid of people, teach her that it's okay, if your telling me here not to ever let her have contact with people basiclly![/quote] That's not what I said. It is important for her to socialize with people, but you have to make sure to go at her pace. Socialization isn't all about having people come up and pet your dog, it's about making the dog comfortable around them. It can be done from as far away as 500 feet, if that's what the dog needs to stay relaxed. By muzzling her, leashing her, and "practically sitting on top of her" you are making her virtually defensless and completely vurnerable. She can't run because she's leashed, she can't move because you're holding her, and she can't bite because she's muzzled. Socialization isn't about having the dog scared out of it's mind. :wink: Because you can't exactly let her run loose and unmuzzled around stranger safely, though, you need to keep a distance between you (and her) and them, one large enough that she feels comfortable and relaxed. After she is completely comfortable with them at that distance, you can move a little closer, but never to the point where she feels she has to defend herself. If you reach that point, then you're pushing too fast and need to back up a few steps. [quote]That just doesn't make sence! Have YOU ever delt with an aggressive dog? Doesn't sound like you have, the KEY to an aggressive dog in training is SOCOLIZATION![/quote] I have lived with two aggressive (but improving) dogs... a Mini Dachshund who has only had desensitization and redirection training, and has made great progress, to the point where she's not "aggressive" and can be trusted in almost any situation, and a fear aggressive pit bull. I used similar methods to those which you are using (muzzles, obedience when a person was near, etc) on my dog at first, and it did nothing to fix her problems. It covered them up with training, but did not actually "fix" them. My dog would hold a sit or down stay while people walked a few feet in front of her, not because she was comfortable with that, but because she knew that was what I expected. In no way was she any better (more comfortable) with people after 5 years of that training. For the past two years, we've been using the methods I used on the dachshund, and she's made progress, although slow. She will walk with me past a person standing a few feet away, not because she knows I expect her to move past the "threat", but because she no longer considers it an immediate threat. She's now 9 yrs old, and I wasted 5 years of her life [i]making[/i] her live with her fears because I didn't take the time to learn how to get her over them, and in the past year, she's made more progress than in those 5. I also used to walk/exercise an aggressive lab/mastiff mix for some neighbors, so my experience hasn't only been with my personal dogs. [quote]In agility class (which was about... maybe even 8 months ago), we did a little test. I walked Hazel around the group, she growled, lunged, barked, ect. Then I stood at the side, and Jammie (my instructor) led her around. She glared at everyone, growled a little bit, then as soon as she was near me, lunged at anyone around me! If that's not protecting me, I don't know what is! (not saying I like this behavior! Trying to teach Hazel that I should be the one protecting her! NOT the other way around!)[/quote] Like Hobbit said, dog can sense your fear/apprehension, and that's only serving to make her even more tense. I bet the reason she acted less "protective" for your instructor was because your instructor wasn't as nervous/tense as you. She was probably more calm, the dog sansed that, and realized that there wasn't a threat. Whereas when you are walking her, you're constantly looking for the next thing that might "set her off", and are ready to react quickly if need be. She feels that, and is more likely to react because of it. I'm not trying to slash out at you, but I don't want you and your dog to end up getting into trouble over something that could have been prevented. Have you taken Hazel to see a behaviorist? They might be able to give you some insight as to her behavior, and suggestions on working with her. [/quote]

Glad I'm not the only one who thought it was just the [i]slightest[/i] bit strange :lol: The dog was playing with her kids, then she chased it and it "attacked" her kid, not breaking skin even though with a dog that young (as they said he was) the teeth are quite sharp. Afterwards, someone tried to chase the dog off, but it just wanted to play, and when the dog was in the school it acted fine. It sounds to me like the dog was still playing when the woman chased it off, and jumped on the kid out of excitement and scratched it or mouthed it. If it had really been an attack on the 5 yr old, especially "to the throat", there would have been more than a red mark. Not to mention the SPCA officers stated that there was no damage to the girl, so who knows if the dog even did it. The school called the police and restrained the dog, what more did the woman want? Would she have preferred the police make a dramatic appearance minutes after the "attack" and blow the dog's head off in front of the kids? :mad: It just "disturbs" me a bit to see something like this blown so out of proportion.

[quote name='HazelNutMeg']She is very protective over me,[/quote] That outward display of "protectiveness" is usually not really protectiveness at all, but more of a "you are scary. Therefore I need to scare you away before you hurt me." attitude. The dogs that make the biggest defensive displays are also usually the ones who back down the fastest if a real threat occurs. [quote]She use to get really scared around people, shying back, growling, and lunging if they came near. Now she'll growl still yes, and lung occassionally, but more often then not, she sits and watches.[/quote] [i]Any[/i] dog that growls or lunges at people (unless there is a real threat, which you have indicated there is not) should [i]NOT[/i] be out in public. [quote]if I don't muzzel her, she could bite someone![/quote] Simple solution. Keep her away from people if you're afraid she may bite them. If she feels threatened enough to bite/growl/lunge/whatever, she's too close. [quote]My dog is also not exactlly built like a husky, much easier to control. [/quote] She's still capable of causing great harm to a person or other dog if she bites them at a moment you happen to let your guard down. [quote]When you say vicious, it makes me think of Cujo, or Mans Best Friend, dog's that were unstable![/quote] Cujo and Man's Best Friend are both fantasy dogs... in real life there are varying degrees of unstability, ranging from slightly unstable/insecure to out-of-their-mind unstable. A dog that shows "unprovoked" aggression to people is generally considered unstable. That doesn't necessarily mean that the dog can't be worked with, and live a good life; but it does mean that that the dog will have to be carefully handled, and may never be fully trustworthy around people. Remember that you can cover up the problem with training, but in dogs that have fearful/dominant/whatever temperments by nature, it will always be there, at least to some extent.

I doubt this would work with most dogs, but I've also found that if you can break the dog's(') train(s) of thought, you can sometimes get them to listen to a command. Of course, it's easier to just stop the fight before it ever get's started :lol: . Also, if you're trying to break up a fight (or get a dog off off yourself), remember that pulling them off of a grip will most likely cause serious damage. It's better to wait (if possible) until they try to regrip, then pull them apart.

[quote]One person can not break up the fight, because the other dog is going to think they are being helped. [/quote] And the dog being pulled out/broken off is likely to feel extremely vulnerable since it can't defend itself, and may bite you in an attempt to get you to let go. Then you'll be bleeding on the floor and the dogs will be back at it :roll:

If you need to muzzle her in order to take her out around people, then you're moving too fast. It's overwhelming for her to be in such a crowded place when she's afraid of people she doesn't know. You need to take a few steps back, and get her to the point where she accepts one strange person, then a few, then as she becomes more confident, you can "add" more people to her surroundings. Also, you need to let her know that [i]you[/i] are keeping [i]her[/i] safe. It sounds like she feels she has to defend herself, and you. Don't let her get in situations where she's uncomfortable... if you see a bunch of people approaching, move away to a distance where she's comfortable. If they want to pet her, tell them she's in training, and they can't. Make sure good things always happen around strangers, that way when she sees one, she looks to you for the praise/treat/toy, and keeps her mind off them. By putting her in situations where she is afraid and acts defensively, you're losing her trust in your leadership and reinforcing in her mind that [i]she[/i] needs to scare the possible "threats" away.

[quote name='Hobbit'] Goo -- is thatt a pitt-peeve of yourrs! :lol: Glad I'm out of smacking range. 8) Just like [b]"healer" [/b]is a peeve of mine. :-?[/quote] Nope. I save all my "peeved-ness" for the people who insist my dog has two sets of teeth, is wired wrong, and will turn on me with her 1000 lbs "clamping power" ("clamping power" courtesy of MSNBC :lol: ) and locking jaws, then scissor me with her front teeth while she holds me immobile with her back teeth :o :x . "pitt" is nothing to me compared to that kinda stuff :wink: "Healer" [i]would[/i] be a little too much for me though :lol: