gooeydog

[quote]I just don't get it. How can people sit, watch and enjoy this so-called sport? Do they actually think it's fun to sit and watch dogs rip each other to shreds, and knowing that some of those dogs will eventually have to be destroyed due to their horrfifc wounds. People who participate in these events even the so called spectators should be either banned from keeping animals, fined or better still sent to prison. To me it's like an adult being cruel to a child but obviously the child can't fight back and sometimes the wounds are so appaling on the child that sometimes the child dies, and then the abuser gets sent to prison for so long. Why can't people who do this to animals be treated the same?[/quote] It makes them feel good :-? They won't fight for themselves, so they find a dog that can do it for them. Then they can brag about it and it makes them feel good. In all the US states, dog fighting is a felony crime, but a person can only be charged if caught fighting dogs. In some states, possesion of fighting dogs is illegal (I think it's a misdemeanor), in some, it's legal to posess(sp?) dogs used in fights. In most states, spectating a dog fight is a misdemeanor. Dogs are considered property in court, so I guess it's kind of hard for the judges/lawmakers to decide what constitutes abuse/neglect. Even then, the people have to be caught actually commiting the crime in order to be charged.

[quote]I wonder where the whole pitt fighting thing came from? why arn't the real fighting and war dogs being singled out like this? pitt have never been dog fighters before this century right? I'm not saying any breed SHOULD be singled out (accept Akitas ) but how on earth did pitts get this wrap and not Shar Peis or Dogos or even Mastinos for that matter? [/quote] Pit bull type dogs have been used in dog fights since the late 1800s, and in other bloodsports before that. Of course, the pit bull type dogs of those times were somewhat different in appearance from those of today. Pit bull type dogs were originally created by crossing terriers with "bulldogs" (nothing like the bulldogs of today, they were taller, more functional dogs, which actually look a little like some ABs of today). I think (not sure though) the "bulldogs" were descendants of some of the mastiff-ish breeds. Now, as to why pit bulls have been singled out as "dangerous"... They're easier to get than most of the rarer gladiator breeds (many of them are expensive, and breeders are more selective about who gets them). Of course, more people are breeding those rarer breeds now, so I expect there will be more of them falling into the wrong hands. Pit bulls aren't a "pretty" breed to most people. They're not fluffy, many have pretty excessive musculature, which is intimidating. [quote]Neos did fight in gladitorial games and did quite well.[/quote] Neos in those times. Poor breeding has brought a lot of problems to the Neo breed, as with many others. From what I understand, Neos back then were smaller, with less of the "typiness" Neos today have. Smaller animals have better agility and wind than larger ones, in general. Pit bulls were made to be a "utilitarian gladiator". They fought in the pit, but they also "earned their keep" performing other everyday tasks. They weren't to big, weren't too small, had agility, stamina, good wind, speed, power, loyalty. They've stayed similar to the way they were when the breed was created. Neos have changed a lot though. I think a Neo could have beaten a pit bull in a fight when Neos were in their "original state", but the present day Neos might have a harder time. It would really depend on the individual dogs. A Neo might defeat a pit bull before the pit's gameness could ever come into play. If a pit bull could keep from sustaining fatal injury early in the fight, the Neo would probably lose power as exhaustion set in. It's kind of like a heavyweight boxer taking on a lightweight (not sure if that's what they're called) boxer. [quote]Why would somebody want to see two 60 lb pit bulls fight when they could see two 200 lb mastiffs fight?[/quote] I think it all comes down to a trait pit bulls have that not many other breeds have... gameness. Most dogs will stop doing something (ie: fighting) if they are sustaining serious injury from it. Maybe not right away, but at some point self preservation will kick in and they'll try to get out of the situation. Not many dogs will fight for hours in a ring, with serious, sometimes fatal injuries, just because they don't want to quit. It's the kind of quality the people who attend dog fights wish they themselves had. Kind of the same as parents who live through their children.

Could she maybe be a Catahoula mix? I don't know much about them, but I think they can have colors like what you're talking about, and would be about that size...

I thought you were the same guest who posts about bite PSI, trying to validate claims that certain breeds of dog are more dangerous than others (I think the same one as K is talking about). Sorry :oops: . [quote]people are entitled to their own opinion no matter what the rest of you people may think if you don't like the posts posted to the forums then don't bother reading them, leave, or just ignore them[/quote] Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the opinion that you posted could cause a lot of harm to the breeds involved. The bite PSI myth is one of the biggest myths about "dangerous breeds", so people talking about it as if it were true/accurate can falsely influence other people's opinions. There was discussion going on about something that doesn't even exist (accurate testing of biting power), so some people pointed that out. [quote]your opinions are not going to change what people think or what they want to believe.[/quote] Maybe not... but a lot of myths about "dangerous breeds" have been disspelled simply by sharing facts, educating people about the dogs, and letting them form their own opinions, based on what they see.

This site was made by a person who euth's animals at a shelter. It has a few pages about the job and what it's like, none of it "made pretty", then at the end there's a link to a page with pictures of some of the animals. [b]Some of the pictures are very graphic[/b]. It's not exactly a happy, nice page, but does make a point to pet owners. [url]http://www.petadvantage.net/mypet/rescue/sr4488407/Real_World.html[/url]

[quote]I have read that they don't "bite hard" so their psi is probably not as large as the APBT is.[/quote] How nice... You read that they don't "bite hard", so you're going to assume that in all cases an APBT will inflict a more powerful bite then a Neopolitan Mastiff? That's absurd. Any dog, if pushed to the point where it feels the need, will bite hard. Also, you can talk about "accurate PSI measurements" all day, but you can't do anything to make them accurate. Consider that when a dog bites a person, first they jump "into" them as they bite, then in most cases they pull back while holding onto them. (notice that I said a bite, meaning that the dog is serious, not just playing or a warning.) It would seem to me that a larger, heavier dog going through those motions would, in most cases, cause more injury than a smaller, lighter dog going through those motions. In addition, you would also have to consider the drives the dogs were in at the time of the test. Different dogs bite differently at different times. There are just too many variables to accurately measure a dog's biting power.

:o 1,000,000 PSI... :roll: With 6 sets of fangs... It doesn't matter, no decent breeder would sell you one anyway. :lol:

Are you allowed to choose the breed/dog you want to work with there? I think around here, they choose the dog for you.. I'm not sure though.

The brindle & white dog (the first few pics) had an "encounter" with a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel a woman was walking, neither dog was hurt, but the police hunted him down anyway. Then they shot him in the paw and the head. He wasn't dead, so he laid on the sidewalk/street for over 90 minutes until the vet came to euthanize him. The vet messed up, and ended up having to give him two shots to euthanize him. The fawn & white dog (tied to the tree) chased and killed a cat, so they tied him up to the tree and (I think) shot him. Some of the other dogs were siezed by the "humane group", and one of the dogs (I don't remember which one) was choked to death because they wanted to have fun :evil: They have a list of "dangerous breeds", and in some places dogs over 15 inches tall are outlawed. If a resident of Germany has a "dangerous dog", the dog must pass a temperment test (in which the dog is hit with a stick, among other things), then they are allowed to keep the dog, under the stipulation that the dog is muzzled when outside, and I think they are completely banned in some parts of Europe. A pit bull over there is basically anything that looks like what they think a pit bull looks like. A blind person and their service dog (a Bull Terrier) were stoned while walking down the street. Dogs (and owners) have been set on fire. This all started because two "pit bull type" dogs (who had been abused, fought, and starved for months) attacked and killed a 6 year old boy on a playground in Germany. This occured(sp?) in 2000, and the laws were passed soon after. I think there are now 40-45 breeds on the list of "potentially dangerous dogs", that's almost 1/4 of all recognized breeds.

This page has pictures of some victims of BSL in European countries. And this is supposed to be the solution to the dangerous dog problem :x [url]http://www.waf-legislation.org/BSL%20Pictures.htm[/url]

I don't think it has much to do with the breeds... Most dogs do not take kindly to another dog "invading" their yard. This fight didn't seem like a typical "dog aggressive dog attacking" fight, but more like a "hey! what are you doing in my yard! get out!" kind of fight, which escalated into a real fight. I wasn't there, so I don't know, but IMO, but owners are at fault, the pit bull's owner for not keeping their fence in good shape, and the other GSDs owner, for letiing their dog go into another dog's yard. I think more of the blame does fall on the GSDs owner though.

The most common dogs used for police work (as in the actual capturing of criminal type stuff) are GSDs and recently more places are starting to use Malinois because it's getting harder to find stable, healthy GSDs. Other breeds that are less commonly seen are Boxers, Dobies, Rotties, Bouviers, and Giant Schnauzers. Some places are starting to use American Bulldogs, and there are a few that use APBTs. I might (probably :roll: ) be wrong, but I think most police dog training uses compulsion methods, which were/still are popular in Germany. I think that may be why the German/European breeds are better suited (in most cases) than other breeds. Most of the bully type breeds seem to like to play around and have fun more than the "working" types do, and can be harder to keep interested in the training. In addition to that, bully types are usually slow to mature, which means that more time would have to be spent on the dogs training/raising, which would mean more expense on the departments. You also have to consider the dogs' drives... the traditional "working breeds" seem to have more defense drive than the average APBT. That's not to say that there aren't APBTs out there that can do police work, but they're not as common as GSDs that can do police work.

Oh yeah... forgot that part :o

You guys are all wrong :wink: It's obvious that the dog was in "shark attack mode, typical of pit bulls... I bet he mauled the door open, using his two sets of alligator teeth, and holding the door with the back teeth while he chewed it with the front teeth. No door can withstand that 1000 lbs of clamping power... That man was doomed. He's just lucky that that nice <cough> man was there to haul the vicious beast off him.... :roll:

What if something happened and you couldn't get to your house to take care of your pets? Does anyone have a plan set up for situations like that? I know it's not something that's likely to happen, but it [i]could[/i] happen. :lol:

Not a guy, and not particularly big or intimidating either :lol: I sometimes thought about taking him, but they weren't going to give him up, and if he "disappeared", they would have guessed I had him (even if I didn't). His "owners" wouldn't have called the police anyway (they had both been arrested several times for drugs and other "minor" crimes, and definitely held it against the police), they would have just found him and taken him themselves. The laws here would have been on their side. Dogs are considered property, so even rescuers can't take them... it has to be left up to the AC. I know it's not really the ACOs fault, they're only going by what the law says, but it just doesn't seem right that people can get away with that much.

That's the hot wire I was talking about... sometimes it's used along the tops of the fences to to keep jumpers/climbers in, too. I've heard that in most cases, the dog only has to touch it once ot twice to get the idea, and that after that, some owners don't even have to keep them on... A problem with a hot wire is that there can't be anything (grass, plants, etc) touching the wire or it will short it out. That might make it hard to use around a garden.

I wouldn't use one to keep a dog in a yard, but if you have a "normal fence" to keep the dogs in, and just want to use the invisible fence (I'm guessing that's what you mean) to keep the dogs out of where they're not supposed to be, then it should be ok. Some not so good things about them: if the dog is in drive (chasing something, running from something, etc), they will most likely run through the fence. If this happens, they will usually not pass back through, because after the adrenaline from the chase wears off, they are afraid of the shock. Also, they only work for the animals that have the collar(s) on... this means that the neighbors kids, loose dogs, cats, mail people, whatever, can still come into your dogs "area" and do as they please. Some cheaper models have been reported as picking up signals from other electronic devices (remotes, garage door openers, etc) and shocking the dogs. Most (if not all, can't be set at different levels for different dogs, so if one dog needs a different level of shock than the other, you will have to decide what to do about that. Some emit warning beeps before the shock (a certain distance away from the barrier), and if the batteries start going dead, they may not do that, so the dogs may not realize they are going to be shocked until they are shocked. Likewise, the batteries can die or weaken, which will allow the dog to cross the boundary because there is no shock/the shock is too weak to stop them. Also, you can't just buy the fence, install it, and let the dog(s) figure it out themselves (well you can, but it won't be very effective), you should take them out on leash and teach them where the fence is, and teach them that staying "__" distance away from it keeps them from getting shocked. I don't have much personal experience with them, but this is what I know.

I wisk the minimal requirements were a little tougher too , but apparently the lawmakers around here don't. :( I think they would have accepted a videotape, but I didn't have access to one, so there wasn't much I could do. I don't know if pictures would have worked, since it would be hard to determine whether "abuse" was taking place or not from a still photo.

The pups [i]were[/i] biting out of fear. That's what I was trying to point out. They're not aggressive, they're doing what comes naturally to all dogs... defending themselves. In some cases, it could also be that they were taken from the litter too early, and therefore didn't have enough time to develop proper bite inhibition (knowing what and where to bite, this is important for all breeds). I see your point about the increasing amount of human aggressive dogs, but keep in mind that the dogs don't pass on their own past, they only pass on their natural temperment. This has helped the breed in some ways, but you're right that the amount of pit bulls with less than stable temperments in increasing. I don't think though, that these dogs are the majority of the breed, nor that the majority of the breeders are breeding naturally unstable dogs. Another thing I wanted to point out is that if you want an idea of the temperment a typical pit bull has, check out some of the fighting ring bust pictures/videos. These dogs have been abused/neglected/who knows what else, but in most cases they can be led out on leads (not catch poles), and in some cases are even carried. Many of the dogs wag their tails at the AC officers, and show absolutely no signs of aggression whatsoever.

Oops :oops: ... I didn't see that part :lol:

I've never seen one of those... I would think the dog would get smart and just jump over it. Maybe it's an invisible fence, and the wires are there so the dog knows where the "boundary" is. Is there already a fence around the areas you want them to stay out of? If there is, and it's just a matter of them getting in anyway, a hot wire might the best way to go, or a taller fence. If there's not, an invisible fence might work, but there are a lot of things to consider with them, and they don't work for all dogs. There's also those "dog be gone" sprays that supposedly repel dogs, so you might also want to check them. One more thing that I've seen done is motion detectors placed around, and they emit loud noises when the dog passes through.

Do you mean invisible fences (the type where you put a collar on the dog and it gets bazited when it crosses the "fence line"), or do you mean hot wired fences (where you use an electrified wire placed along the top/bottom of the fence to keep the dog from climbing/digging out)?

They had the "minimal requirements"... a bucket of water (not that it was always full), they fed him (he was boney though, so I guess he didn't get much, or he had internal parasites), and there was a wooden box out there that they managed to pass off as shelter.

It's not so much the instinct to bite, it's the instinct of [i]what[/i] to bite. Most pit bulls (even those of poor breeding), if let to their own devices, will not develop human aggression. There are thousands of pit bulls in shelters/rescues that have been neglected (some for months, or even years), but they have still not become human aggressive. What you said about the owner kicking the pups proves my point. Even with the "breeder" purposely trying to get "mean" dogs, he still has to beat them into fear biting in order for them to bite. Doesn't sound to me like those pups are particularly "mean". Any dog will bite if you beat it enough. It's how they survive. There was a dog like that around here. His owners tied him in their backyard, the only attention he got was when they came out to "train" him, ie: kick him around the yard until he finally would yelp and nip at them. I called AC several times, and they said that unless the dog was harrassing someone or I could prove the abuse, they couldn't do anything. I even offered to buy the dog from the people, but they insisted that they were going to turn him into a fighter/guard dog. He would run away if someone approached by a person, but once he figured out they weren't going to hurt him, he would crawl up and lay beside them, practically begging to be petted. He ended up dying during the winter, I guess his fur was too short and he didn't have enough body fat to keep warm.