gooeydog

deepseasnake, Just wanted to clear something up :lol: Pit bulls have never really been used as attack/guard/war dogs... They were originally an all around farm dog, working with farmers in the stock pens (they would supposedly keep the bulls away from farmers as they worked. These "bite and hold" skills that they used were then put to test by bullbaiting and bearbaiting contests, and dogfighting started around that time as well. After bull/bearbaiting was outlawed, dogfighting was still legal, and was popular right up until it was made illegal (not that that really stopped it :( ). There were a few (very few) pit bull type dogs that were involved with various military groups but not so many that they can be considered a "war breed". Pit bulls have never been much good as guard dogs, either. Actually, they are one of the most commonly stolen breeds in the US. Until recent years, they were bred to be a strictly people friendly breed (even though many are animal/dog aggressive), and most human aggressive dogs were culled. This, in effect, has helped the breed to remain stable, friendly dogs (toward people), even though most breeders today aren't exactly breeding with good temperment in mind. That's not to say that there are no unstable pit bulls out there, but the majority are stable and friendly towards people. :lol:

From what I've heard, Bane, the dog that supposedly was most "involved" in the attack on the woman, is of questionable breed. Some say he was 1/2 presa, 1/2 english mastiff, some say he was a purebred presa, some don't know. Either way, presas (from what I've heard) aren't a breed for most dog owners, and there are a lot of poor breeders out there who are cashing in on the next "killer dog breed", so if you do decide they're the breed for you, make sure you find a good breeder. I don't think presas have too much relation to pit bulls, I could be wrong, though :lol: They have a more "guardian" type attitude than most dogs, which is something you should consider. I think too, that some can be pretty dog aggressive (true with any "bully breed"), so that could be a problem if you want to have other dogs. Again, find a good breeder, and they'll try to match you up with a dog that suits your needs.

[quote] 3. Why would they trank her when all they had to do was euthinize her??? The dog was in pain and it was time to end it... and the trank was expensive! Why not just put her to sleep... living was obviously too hard... [/quote] Some vets do tranqualize the dogs before the euthanize them... I've heard a couple reasons, but I guess it really depends on the situation, the vet, the animal, and the owner.

I really think that the best thing for dog owners to do is to work as a group to educate dog owners as well as the general public. Get together with other dog owners in the area and figure out an education program, then follow through with it. Show the public that no particular breed is bad, and explain to them why some dogs are aggressive and what can be done about it. Start teaching kids at a young age to respect dogs, and how to behave around them. Work with lawmakers to try to solve the problem, and offer solutions, rather than just sitting back and saying "this won't work" when they come up with an idea. Explain to them why it won't work. Most of them have no idea how to deal with the "dog problem", so someone needs to show them that it's not a "dog problem", but a "people problem". Why is educating the public so important? Because in order to enforce regulations (those already in existance, and those that may be implemented in the future), their help is needed. They are the ones who see the people fighting their dogs in abandoned parking lots, the dogs neglected and abused, and the dogs that could cause problems for the neighborhood (ie: running loose, aggressive, etc). The problem with that, is that they have no idea what to look for, and honestly, most of them don't care. They don't know enough to realize that the pit bull next door that tries to "eat them alive" wasn't like that as a pup, and that if they had done something to stop the abuse/poor training before the dog's behavior reached that point, the dog might not be that way. They just assume that the dog is like that because it's a "bad breed", and figure there's nothing they can do about it. Then when the dog gets out and kills someone, it's still a "bad breed", and the breed's name has been damaged even more. That's why it's important to educate the public. I think that there should be a dog safety program implemented into the school systems, to teach young people how to act around dogs, and what to look out for in dogs' behavior. This would serve two purposes, one: since most dog bites are on children, it would maybe help to lower the amount of dog bites, and two: it would educate the children, so that hopefully when they became adults they wouldn't be so completely clueless about dogs in general. Educating people would in no way be a quick solution, but I think it could work. Another thing that might help, is to have a "graded" lisensing system. Charge a high fee (let's say $50/year) for unaltered dogs. Then, cut the price in half for altered dogs ($25/year). There could also be even more of a discount (of $5-$10) if the dog(s) had been through training or passed a CGC or similar test. This would leave lisense fees at $15-$20/year/dog. Combine the "discount" with harsh penalties for unlisensed dogs, and I bet more people who train/alter their dogs. Maybe not many, but a few is better than none.

[quote]Jacsmom: I think owners should be screened before a purchase and home checks should be done from the get go. I also think that every dog should receive some type of training (obedience kindergarden etc.)... [/quote] The screening idea is good in theory, but how many of the people out there breeding dogs screen prospective homes/owners? Not many, and I don't really see any way to force them. :( Every dog should recieve some sort of training, but again, you can't force people to train their dogs. [quote]Smooshie: I think that owners should be made to take accountability for the actions of their dogs, and the consequences for offending OWNERS should be harsher.[/quote] I agree with you on that. I also agree that most shelters don't screen prospective owners carefully enough, but I think that sometimes the workers are so desperate to get the dogs out that they think [i]any[/i] home is better than being PTS. [quote]Guest Pat: I truly believe that cities, states, really all municipalities need to only strictly enforce already in place laws [/quote] The problem I see with that is that ACOs can only do so much by themselves. In most cases they depend on the public to call and let them know about a dog that is always loose, or acts aggressively. This is a problem, because it seems that most people really [i]don't care[/i] about whats going on with the neighbors' dogs, until they bite someone, then they just want them gone. Until people realize that they can (and should) do something about potentially dangerous/annoying dogs before they reach that point, I don't think the number of dog attacks is going to decrease.

People (not necessarily those who post here) are always talking about how horrible dog bites are, and how something needs to be done to stop it. Often though, when asked what they think should be done, they suddenly have something really important to do :roll: . I'm just wondering what everyone here thinks should be done to decrease the amount of dog bites that occur. For those who don't really have an opinion on the issue, remember that laws can be made which immediately affect all dog owners, or laws can be made which only affect a few dog owners at first, then gradually more laws are made which affect more dog owners, until eventually all dog owners are affected by such laws. If you choose an answer, feel free to explain the reasoning behind your choice.

You can check out the Doberman Pincher Club of America for more info about "white" dobermans, here's the page about them [url]http://www.dpca.org/albinoinfo1.html[/url]

[quote name='Underdog'] As for people saying that the dogs use the tail as a rudder. When have you seen a dog with its tail docked stumble or lost its balance doing ordinary things?[/quote] I don't think it affects their balance doing ordinary things, but if you look at greyhounds and other sighthounds, they use their tails when they're running, flipping them from side to side when they turn, etc. Again, I don't know if there is any validation to the balance thing, but it's something owners may want to look into.

Well, it says in the breed standard that tails should not be docked, so that might have something to do with the looks :lol: . I think the reason the standard calls for "natural" tails is because they suppposedly help a dog keep it's balance, and act as a "rudder" when turning. These things would probably be helpful to a fighting dog, so I'm guessing that's why they weren't docked. From what I've heard, a lot of pit bull breeders in the southeast do dock their dogs' tails. I guess it really just depends on where you live, and what you want to do :)

The saddest part about it is that the dog has done nothing wrong, it didn't bite anyone, it doesn't run loose terrorizing other dogs and people. It has been temperment tested by someone knowlegable in the breed, and found to be of great temperment (for any dog). Yet because it is a "dangerous breed", both the dog and the owner may loose their home.

:o Does anyone else sometimes get the feeling that their dog is trying to "dispose of them" so they can have unlimited control of the bed, tv, food, and all other things sacred in the house? I mean come on, I'm sure everyone here has stumbled out of bed at 3 am, only to trip over a pile of fur and crash into a wall or down a flight of steps. :lol: So what methods do your dogs use? Annie the Mini Doxie strategically places toys around the house... You can bet that when stepping over a baby gate or board across a doorway, your foot will land on a sharp toy, then as you jump in surprise, your other foot will land on a ball, and away you roll. :o Casey (Cocker Spaniel) and Joey (Chi) follow us around the house, with Joey licking our ankles to distract us as Casey runs in front to trip us. Goo loves to move my things around when I'm gone for more than a few hours, so if I come home after dark and forget to turn on a light, I'm sure to trip over, or step on something I thought was stored safely in the closet. She is, of course, right there with that innocent look on her face, like, "Oh, how did that get there" :roll: Sometimes I really wonder about them...

Judge rejects S.F. man's defense of emotional support Ever since Guy Lowe rescued Sophie from the pound where she was about to be euthanized, the dog has been the balm of his life. She gets him out of his San Francisco apartment, takes him to the park each day and helps him fend off depression from his diagnosis of AIDS. One other detail: Sophie is a pit bull. That was enough for a federal judge to grant the landlords' request to move her out. "It was unreasonable to have selected a pit bull rather than a dog of gentler reputation" as a companion dog, U.S. District Judge William Alsup said Wednesday. He cited expert testimony that pit bulls killed or injured more people in the United States than any other breed except rottweilers. Lowe said Thursday the judge had bought into stereotypes. "Look at the history of the pit bull," he said. "They are the most adoring dogs to humans if they're raised right." Lowe, 38, brought Sophie to his Hayes Street apartment from a pound in Pinole in November after getting a letter from his doctor saying an "emotional support animal" would ease his depression. He said she was the only suitable dog there. Some courts, and California's Fair Employment and Housing Commission, have ruled that a severely depressed person is entitled to a companion animal as an accommodation for disability, even in an apartment such as Lowe's with a no- pets lease. Lowe said Sophie, about 19 months old, gave him "unconditional love," socialized daily with people and other animals and had never behaved aggressively. The landlords learned about the pit bull in December and sent Lowe an eviction notice, but they later agreed to await court proceedings. In March, they offered to allow a less-menacing breed -- such as a cocker spaniel, poodle or beagle -- but Lowe said he needed Sophie. In court, Lowe offered testimony by a veterinary expert who said Sophie was the safest dog of 10,000 he had tested. The president of Bay Area Doglovers Responsible About Pitbulls, or BADRAP, which evaluates and recommends placements for pit bulls at the Berkeley city shelter, took Sophie into her home for 48 hours of testing and gave her a thumbs-up. Lowe "couldn't have chosen a more stable pet," the BADRAP leader, Donna Reynolds, said Thursday. "It's only guesswork," retorted the landlords' attorney, Saul Ferster. He said Lowe could have avoided the problem if he had approached the landlords before getting his dog. In his ruling, Alsup said the landlords had satisfied any obligation to Lowe under disability laws by offering to accept other types of dogs. He also noted that state law required landlords to protect tenants from dangerous dogs and said there was no evidence that the witnesses' predictions of safety were reliable. "The potentially catastrophic consequences of a pit bull attack must be considered, even if the risk of that attack is remote," the judge said. Alsup ordered Lowe to move Sophie out by Sept. 9. Lowe said he'll instead look for new quarters for himself and his dog while hoping for a reprieve from an appellate court. E-mail Bob Egelko at [email]begelko@sfchronicle.com[/email]

[quote]I use whips,chains and I starve tem, then feed them cats and small dogs. To ake them mean I put them out saide with no doghouse, rain or shine![/quote] Hahaha :lol: That doesn't make them mean :roll: It turns them into "wimps" who try to act tough when they're really scared outta their little minds. :o Just like their owners :lol:

They don't show up on xrays, but with some of the dogs, you can actually see a popping motion going on in the knee. If you have to take Gizmo back to the vets to get her stitches out from the spay, you might want to ask the vet to check it again.

[quote name='hazelhover']Just out of curiousity, what kind of work do pitts do? I thought thier orriginal purpose was fighting.... are they search and rescue or some thing like that?[/quote] They can do pretty much anything other breeds can do, but by work, I mostly meant the dog "sports" that dogs from the working breeds do, like Schutzhund (and other protection type sports), weight pull, herding, etc. Pits are usually pretty good at weight pull, some do well at the protection sports, and a few can herd. There are also a few SAR pits out there, here's a site for some in California [url]www.forpitssake.org[/url].

[quote]if I had a 'collar slipper' due to body structure I would use a martingale collar - similar to the prong in functional design but made of flat webbing with no spikes to put 'teeth' into the dog's neck.[/quote] I was using a martingale on Goo for a while, but I think that the nylon stretched, just enough that she could pull out of it. I've been looking for someone who makes sturdier, 2ply ones, so hopefully they won't stretch as much. Until then, we're sorta stuck. I don't take her out of the yard very often though, so it's not as if she walks every day like that.

If you want to breed, then don't get a "pet quality" dog. There are [i]more than enough[/i] people out there buying pet dogs and breeding them because they only wanted a pet, but they also wanted to breed. This has caused real problems for the breed. If you're really serious about breeding, then for the sake of the breed, and for the dogs you produce, do it right. Get quality dogs from working or conformation stock, have them proven in some sort of "breed suitability test", whether it's weightpull, conformation, or whatever. You shouldn't breed them until they are at least 2 years of age, since before that, they are really still puppies, not to mention some health tests can't be done until 2 years of age. Then, if you still want to breed them, make sure you get all their health screenings done (you need more than a simple vet check for this), and find a dog who's temperment/conformation compliments your dog. If you get your dog(s) from a responsible breeder, they'll be able to answer any questions you have about your dog(s). Breeding dogs responsibly takes a lot of work, and a lot of money. If you really don't want to get into that, then you might want to look into adopting a rescue dog. Most of them are already spayed/neutered, but even if they aren't they shouldn't be bred anyway (you have no clue what health problems their lines may carry), and they should already be fully vaccinated, heartworm tested, etc for a price lower than just purchasing a pet quality puppy. A lot of shelters test the dogs in different situations to see how they react, some are housebroken, some are even partially or fully trained. Rescue dogs can participate in most dog "sports", and give just as much love as a dog from a breeder.

Which leg is it? If it's a back leg, it could maybe be a torn Cruciate (knee) ligament. These are common in pits and other heavily muscled dogs, as well as in some small breeds. Does she limp only at certain times, like when she first gets up after laying down, or a day/a few hours after hard exercise? I've heard of older pups/young adults having lameness for no apparent reason, and it seems to disappear after a while and leave no lasting effects.

What state/country do you live in? That might help people :) Also, most "blue pit bulls" or blue brindles for that matter, are descended from AmStaff lines, so if you're looking for a more "performance" or working type pit, you might have a hard time finding one. If you go with a breeder, be careful, as blue and blue brindle are dilutes, and (I think) have more health problems than fully pigmented colors. Make sure the breeder does all the health testing, and good luck finding what you're looking for. Do you plan on doing any activities with the dog (Obedience, weight pull, agility, etc), or is it just going to be a family pet?

There are a lot of training style out there, and different ones work better for different dogs and owners, but I thought it would be interesting to see what "tools" and methods everyone here uses for training. I try to keep our dogs training positive, and use very few corrections. Most of the training we do is on a flat collar and 6' leash, although when we take Goo out for a walk somewhere, I put a choke collar on her in addition to the flat collar (and hook the leash to both), because she slips out of flat collars (no matter how tight), and I don't want to risk her getting loose if another dog is around. Two of our dogs (the lower energy ones) work for food rewards, my aunt's dog works for playing tug, and Goo works for attention.

I thought the show was pretty bad :( They perpetuated a lot of myths, and the MHS people didn't seem to know much about pits. They couldn't even get their name right :x They called them staffordshire pit bull terriers. Not even five minutes into the show, one of the shelter workers (supposedly an expert :roll: ) said that pit bulls have 1000 lbs "clamping power". Clamping power??? :o Then he was demonstrating the red dog in the kennel's vicious nature... by playing tug with him? I know a lot of dogs (pit bulls and other breeds) that like to play tug, does that mean they're dangerous? The shelter worker continued on to say that that particular dog was "game" (just because he played tug?), and that he could be bred with another game female and the pups would bring thousands of dollars. Soon after they showed the collar, chewed through, as if to prove how vicious and powerful he was. Then, they showed the dead dog being carried out of the euth room, and said that he had to be PTS because he was so aggressive (collar aggression :o very bad :lol: ), he was a danger to the shelter workers. Next, they talked to a dog fighter who was in jail after one of his "beloved companions" bit his stepson. He kept going on and on about how fighting is a sport, and that more people need to realize that. Then they showed a bunch of short video clips of fights and pit yards, with some commentary, etc. After that, they centered on attacks. One person said that dog attacks keep rising in numbers, and that it's due to the amount of "trained killers" that roam the streets looking for vulnerable people and pets to attack. Another said that pit are unpredictable, "they'll wag their tails and do a little happy dance, then bite you". Yet another said that pits can be good pets for a year or two, then one day just jump the fence and attack a family's pet, or worse, a child. They didn't seem to understand that dog aggression and human aggression are different. When they described the attack on the dogfighter's stepson, they said he got between them when they were fighting, and was bitten. The dog that bit him was in horrible shape. He didn't look like he could even see, his face was so swollen. They spent a lot of time on the story of the little girl who got attacked in Baltimore. They showed her injuries, before and after, and showed her mother campaigning to get pits banned. But did they mention that the dog escaped through a hole in the fence that the owners had been told by AC to repair? No... they were happy to let all the blame fall onto the dog. The story about the woman in California who was killed by the two Presas barely got any attention. They didn't even identify the breed. They just said, "two big dogs" :-? . Towards the very end, they did have a few people say it's the owners' fault, not the dogs', but that little bit of good wasn't anywhere near enough to cover up the bad. One good thing did come out of the show though, I always thought my dog was snoring at night, but now I know it's really her clamp (err.... jaws?) squeaking. I think it needs oiling. Any suggestions? :lol:

I think MSNBC has a tv channel, so I guess it would be on there... not real sure though :lol:

Mean Dogs: Born or Bred? Premiere, Saturday, August 3rd, 11 p.m. ET The bloody, brutal world of dog-fighting. It's alive and well all over this country. And there are breeders who stop at nothing to produce the most viscious dogs around. Wonder why so many people are getting attacked these days? Look no further than the dog-fighting ring and the puppy mills that are thriving underground.

SibeHusky: Let's try this again :lol: ... In your message to GizmoRedNosePit, You kept refering to pack status (ie alpha , omega, etc). If you ever find yourself in the midst of an accidental fight between a pit bull and another dog, or 2 pit bulls, you'd be amazed at how fast "pack status" goes out the window. You then answered my question as to why you think pit bulls don't make good house pets, but you answer was based totally on generalizations. If the dog's owners just made them sit inside the house all day, yes, they would do poorly in that situation. Most pit bull owners who keep their pits in their house don't do that, however. They give them adequate exercise, both indoor and out. My own "housepet" pit bull also weight pulls (for fun), and does some agility in our backyard. She goes outside several times a day, at least 3, then gets to play outside or inside (sometimes both) for at least an hour. That, along with her training sessions (usually 1/2 hour to 1 hour a day), give her plenty of work. Much more than she'd get sitting around in a kennel outside. For that matter, I used to lift weights, and I never knew that weightlifters are supposed to box, also :o . Did you know that pit bulls are one of the poorest breeds out there for guarding? They are supposed to be people friendly, which is probably why they're one of the top dogs stolen in the US. And yes, I know that dogs can jump through windows. My pit bull went through mine, trying to get the neighbor's dog when it killed one of our cats. She didn't get out, but still cut herself and bled all over my floor before I got home. I've since taught her not to even get in the window, but just in case, we have guards on all of our windows to make sure she doesn't do it again. Now for the response to me... I [b]know[/b] they use a fake arm to test bite pressure, that's one of the things I was trying to point out to you. You don't seem to understand that there is a big difference between prey drive in a lion, and defense drive in a dog; or even prey drive in a dog and defense drive in a dog. What's the difference betweenyour dog getting torn apart by a 3 legged pitbull, and your dog getting torn apart by a 4 legged great dane? There is none. They are both owned by irresponsible people who shouldn't have dogs in the first place. [b]ALL[/b] of the laws against specific breeds (ie: pit bulls) are because of attacks on people. All dogs will attack other dogs if provoked, so if all breeds of dog which attack other dogs were banned, there would be no dogs :o . I wasn't talking about them biting humans if provoked, I was talking about them biting [b]other dogs[/b]. There's a difference :-? . A poodle could indeed kill a person if it wanted to, as a matter of fact, Standard Poodles are sometimes used in police work. [b]Any[/b] dog can kill a person. Pit bulls are actually less easily provoked by people than other breeds, because of their high pain tolerance and playful nature :roll: . They are great with kids because they don't mind tail pulling, ear grabbing, and the other annoying and sometimes painful things that kids do. That's not to say that any dog should be left alone with kids. If a pit bull owner leaves their pit bull outside, and someone "provokes" it to bite, then it [b]isn't[/b] the pit bulls fault. It's the owner's fault for not paying attention to their dog and what was going on around their dog :roll: . Pit bull owners like you (if you really even own a pit bull), who perpetuate myths and misconceptions just to make them (and yourself) look tough, are the reason the public fears the breed so much. It's not a killing machine, a weapon, or superman, [b]it's a dog[/b]. By the way, "stfu"...I like that :lol:

SibeHusky: I disagree with a few of your statements about pit bulls... First, many pit bulls [b]aren't[/b] animal aggressive unless challenged, even some from "game" lines. I'm not saying that all are like that, but many are. They may be dominant over other animals, but most are "soft" towards people. They won't challenge their owner in the same way that some of the "harder", protection & guard breeds will. Another popular misconception is that [i]all[/i] pit bulls are game. From what I understand, "truly game" dogs are very rare, and just being a pit bull doesn't make them game. You're right that gameness means never backing down, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they will pick a fight. It does mean that they have the ability to finish one though, which is why pit bull owners need to be careful and keep them out of trouble. Determination doesn't go hand in hand with gameness, it simply [i]is[/i] gameness. As far as the bite pressure study, I've never really studied it, but from what I understand, jaw strength can't be accurately measured by PSI, and even if it could, all the animals would have to be tested under the [i]exact same conditions[/i] in order for it to be accurate, which would be nearly impossible. I'm a little confused by your statement, "Pits have a propensity towards aggression, as they were originally bred to fight bulls and bears". Yes they do have a propensity towards animal aggression, but not towards human aggression. [i]Any[/i] large dog can inflict serious damage to a person or animal, breed has nothing to do with that. Breed really doesn't even have anything to do with a dog's determination to do something. Our Mini Dachshund will hang from the springpole for almost 1/2 hour, then will let go for a few minutes break and go back for some more. Most pits [i]are[/i] more determined, or game, whatever you want to call it :D, than dogs of other breeds, but there are "freaks" out there in other breeds as well. Pit bulls are strong dogs, some say they are the strongest breed pound-for-pound, but other large bull breeds (ABs for example) have them beat overall. Many pit bull owners who think their dogs are "curs" are shocked when their dog matures a little more and gains confidence, (always in the worst places, like the middle of a petstore. After all, the dog was "cold", right?) :o . You state that pit bulls don't make good housepets. Why? Your friend's dog is testing his limits, as most pups will. Police officers are afraid of almost all large dogs, even labs have been shot. I've seen the site you refer to before, and most of the stories on there are the usual over-exaggerated media stories, but there may be some truth to them. Either way, the dogs were that way because of the irresponsible owners who didn't bother to actually take care of their dogs. What you said about not getting one unless you're going to take care of them applies to all large breeds, as an attack from any large/giant breed can prove fatal just as easily as one from a pit bull. Anyway, I respect your opinions, but mine are different, so I guess we'll just have to disagree :lol: