Horsefeathers!

See, this is the stuff I was puzzled about. If SHE doesn't use rat poison and *I* don't use it, where could he have gotten it? I'm just not convinced it's rat poison. The dog was 12 years old and otherwise healthy it seems. :(

I just got off the phone with what WAS a really good client. She had a Cocker Spaniel. I've been calling people a few times a week to cancel prestanding appointments since I'm still not working. Imagine my shock when this lady told me that Sky had died. Now imagine my utter horror when she said he got into rat poison. Here's the thing and I'm so shook up, I don't know what to do- She says she has NEVER used rat poison around her place and there was no way he could have gotten into it at her house and that he is not a yard dog and there is nowhere nearby he could have gotten into it. She said he is NEVER outside without someone and that, in 12 years, he has never eaten something in the yard, anyway. This dog apparently got sick exactly three WEEKS after I groomed him. She started off asking me if Doc (in our vet clinic) has rat poison laying around. I told her of course not and she said it was the only place he could have gotten into it. I told her that when I groom them, they are with me all day and the grooming area is completely different than the general area, anyway, and I KNOW I don't use rat poison. Beside that, he'd have had to be loose and he's NEVER been loose. She wasn't ugly with me at all, but was understandably upset. Now I'm upset. Her regular vet is a different one than the one where I work. The OTHER vet is one I've had little respect for for several years because, frankly, I think he's not only a jerk, but an incompetent. Still, I've never, ever said a bad word to anyone about this vet. I don't badmouth him at all. This client said that the vet told her it HAD to be rat poison. Once she said she never used it, he insisted it HAD to come from "somewhere," leaving that implication wide open. From what I gather, he didn't go so far as to accuse me or my vet personally (nice save, a**hole), but insisted it HAD to be rat poison even after she said he hadn't been anywhere but our clinic. He saved his butt just enough by letting her draw the conclusion that we'd exposed him to rat poison without actually saying it. From what I could gather from her, no lab tests were run to look for anything else. It was just his opinion that, based on the bleeding, it HAD to be rat poison. He also said that it could take three weeks after ingestion to make a dog sick (remember... it had been three weeks after I groomed him that he got sick). Can someone help me here? Can rat poison REALLY take three weeks after ingestion to make a dog start showing symptoms? I know beyond any shred of a doubt that the dog did not get into anything while I had him, but I'm so upset that she thinks he did. She doesn't seem upset with me personally since she referred another client to take her dog's place in my schedule. My opinion is that this vet is WAY off base by insisting that it HAD to be rat poison. Isn't there anything else in the world that could make a dog bleed out? I think he should have run lab tests. She said he shot him up with B12 and as far as I could gather, that was it. I was very sympathetic to her on the phone and I feel really horrible, but the professional I am, it took all I had not to tell her that this vet is an incompetent a**hole (not only in THIS case), anyway.

[quote name='DivineOblivion19'][color=indigo]HF I can't help but think you are replying to my post. I'm not PO'd at anyone here. I'm mad about the people who were "attacked" that have told a totally different story. When I said "Funny how things change when you hear the other side of the story...." I wasn't saying that people's opinions here have changed I meant funny how much people tell a completely different story and make up lies from what really happened. Sorry if I stated that kind strangely but I was so mad after reading K's post I was seeing red. :wink: [/color][/quote] NO, DO, not you. It was in reference to Rotten Two's posting. Something about the wording of it that made it seem sort of insulting. Maybe I read her(?) wrong.

The staining can be caused by several things and "treatment" can be as simple as changing food and water, or it could be something that needs to be treated surgically. Sometimes they have blocked ducts. Just switching from tap water to bottled distilled water has been enough to eliminate the staining for my Toy who had HORRIBLE stains. Also, it does seem to be worse with one food than another (more staining on Wellness than Canidae, for example), so she may indeed want to ditch the Iams and see if it helps. Daily applications of Vaseline can help. Just apply a very thin smear of it right from the corner of the eye. It doesn't prevent tearing or anything like that, but kind of wicks it away and keeps it from settling on the coat. The face still needs to be washed daily and a fresh smear of Vaseline... it doesn't have to be globbered on. There are eye wipes and lotions for staining that some people swear by, but I've never had any luck with them. For the mouth staining, personally I believe the dog needs to be clipped more than every 3-4 months :wink: . I don't know how to prevent that other than keeping the hair clipped away. She may want to make sure the dog's teeth are ok (any bad breath?) and that there are no mouth sores or anything that would cause excess drooling and therefore staining. For the red feet, that sounds more allergy or yeast related since it usually means the dog is licking its feet. Hope that helps and that she can find something that works! :D

I think when some who are going on about "reacting on human emotion" aren't realizing is that [u]ALL[/u] we had to go on was the story posted. I think we said repeatedly that we were basing our opinions on what we read and agreed that our opinions would likely change if something new were to come up. *reading back* Yeah, that's what we said. I STILL hold true to my beliefs that [u]if[/u] it had happened as originally posted, the dog would have been considered dangerous. Sorry, but I just resent the notion that we were reacting based solely on emotion and without the intelligence to consider that the story could have been twisted. Who here has ever said they take media stories as gospel? Now that other facts have come to light, OF COURSE it makes a difference. I don't know how many more times we could have posted that. Thanks to *K* for digging up more. It does make a difference. [quote]3 puncture wounds? not nearly enough to constitute a vicious attack! come on people --do you have any idea the damage a dog could do if he intended that attack, people have died![/quote] I still disagree, though at this point it doesn't seem to apply to THIS story. I'm never going to believe that it's not a vicious attack unless someone dies or is horribly maimed.

I'm not trying to blame the dog. I agree that the owner was irresponsible. Leashes can break, yes, but if one has a dog with a strong prey drive, or that doesn't respond well to owner direction, you make sure you have one that doesn't. Sadly, in the end, it's the dog that suffers. Seems that's always the case when owners are irresponsible and I agree 100% that this owner is irresponsible. :(

I'm also basing my opinion solely on what I read of the story. Of course, it may not be accurate, but we can only base opinions on what we do know. I just can't think that it wasn't a serious attack just because the guy wasn't more seriously injured. That scares me to think that we could base the seriousness of an attack on the severity of the wounds inflicted. Next time, it could indeed be much worse and imagine the legal ramifications (not to mention another feather in the cap of the BSL folks) when people find out this dog attacked before. It just seems a disservice to responsible Pit Bull owners who are facing BSL. Like Sasha, IF it were an accident and IF the story is inaccurate and IF the dog merely grabbed the wrong thing, I would feel differently. What I'm reading (and all I have to go on) is that the dog bit a man to get his dog and didn't let go until someone intervened. I consider that dangerous behavior regardless of if the man were lucky enough to get off with a puncture wound or if the dog took his arm off. [quote]and I believe the trip to hospital was to ensure that a police report was filed and so that a possible injuries claim can be made...we all know Americans are 'sue happy' right [/quote] I thought this happened in Canada? :-? I respectfully disagree, K (just based on what I read... would love to know more). 8)

This is a recent change of heart for me, but I still firmly believe that any dog who injures a human for ANY reason, whether it's an effort to get another dog or not, is showing human aggression. There is something kind of similar on another board where someone I've known a few years was holding her Poodle in her arms. A Rottie [u]on a leash[/u] and under the handler's control (to this point) suddenly seized the Poodle from the owner's arms and killed it... just that quickly. There was no time to react and the dogs had apparently gotten along fine just a few minutes before when running loose, so holding the dog in her arms wasn't an effort to protect him. She was just holding him. This dog is still up for adoption and was just recently placed on PetFinder until the Poodle owner saw it and confronted them. The rescue group firmly believes there is no reason to "label" this dog as even dog aggressive and the ad on PetFinder just told what a wonderful dog he is... no mention of even having dog aggression. I'm kind of wandering off the original topic. I could almost believe it was an accident with the Pit Bull if it weren't for the injuries described. I've seen that "oh sh*t!" look dogs get when they realized they grabbed the wrong thing in an effort to get to something else. It's happened to me when one of mine grabbed my hand in an effort to get a toy that I was holding over his head and squeaking (duh, me). It WAS an accident because as soon as he realized it was a hand and not the toy, he IMMEDIATELY let go. I'm not hard hearted enough to believe accidents never happen. However, as soon as I read that someone else had to pull this dog off? Sorry, I still consider that human aggression. That dog had time to realize he had a human arm in his mouth and chose to continue. Strong prey drive and the urge to get another dog, toy, bit of food, or whatever, IMO, are no excuses for injuring someone. I'm wondering how this is going to do the breed any good when the next inevitable "accident" happens with this dog and it WILL. Won't that just be another nail in the coffin? Maybe my views are a bit influenced by the h*ll we went through last year with an aggressive dog that, despite the amount of training and rehabilitation, meds, natural diets and behavioralist working, was just plain dangerous. I'm not as likely to give biting dogs a second chance as I was even a year ago when there are so many "good" dogs. If we had put her down in the beginning when she bit her first kid, or killed the first dog instead of validating it away and trying to simply control her, it would have saved us a lot of h*ll and heartache. I can honestly say it will never happen again.

[quote name='Canis erectus'] It seems to me that the scenario was an accident, a dog aggresive animal's leash broke and the victim essentially had gotten himself in the middle of a dog fight. Haven't we all been taught not to be in the middle of dog fights? Granted the gentleman hadn't been thinking about that when he took his dog off the ground, but you know what they say about hindsight huh? [/quote] Maybe I'm misunderstanding the story, or maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I have to strongly disagree. How was it a dog fight at all? What should the alternative have been... to stand there and watch his dog be killed by another dog? To me, any dog that will go through a human to get to another dog IS human aggressive. I just can't find a way to validate blaming the victim for his injuries. I believe the dog should be destroyed (based on what I have read). [quote]On a related note, my finace was attacked (no, mauled) by a dog when she was a little girl. She was unattended in a parking lot when she decided to talk to the nice Chesapeak Bay Retriever in the back of a pick up. Well, Chessies are territorial, and this was Southern Maryland where dogs are expected to be territorial, she encroached on 'his' truck, and payed the price for it. She still has quite large scars on her arm to this day. At any rate my fiance's family pleaded with the dog's owner not to euthanize the animal, and tried to convince the guy for weeks that the dog was only doing what he was expected to do. Of course the dog ended up being destroyed anyway, but at least my fiance's parents had the sense to realize that it was their own fault that that had happened, and that as mankind we shouldn't condemn an animal that only did what we designed it to do.[/quote] The back of a pickup truck in a public parking lot is not ANY dog's "territory," or shouldn't be. Also, I didn't realize that Chesapeake Bay Retrievers were designed to be aggressive. To excuse that away as simply being territorial is like comparing apples to oranges. It's a hard pill for me to swallow that the dog was "expected to" protect his truck from the bed of it in a public lot. I'm honestly taken aback that the "quite large scars on her arm to this day" are blamed on a young child. I see a joint responsibility... parents who weren't watching and a dog owner who left an aggressive dog unattended on the back of a truck in a public lot. If it was "expected to be territorial" and left unattended, then that seems an admission of the dog's aggression... since the dog was "expected to" protect it and all. That dog MAULED (by your description) a child. I don't care WHY he did it, or what you call it. The owners did the right thing by putting it down. I can't help wondering what on earth the parents of that girl were thinking by begging for the dog's life. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the story. I'm with Carol... in short, I have no use for biting dogs and I'm inclined to care less and less each day the excuses given for WHY they bite.

Glad y'all had such a great time! 8)

[quote name='Cairn6'] I have never understood how a dog person could dislike children when they are that much alike. [/quote] It's easy. See, to me, dogs and kids are NOTHING alike. 1. When you need a break, you can't take an afternoon off and leave the children home alone. 2. Dogs don't have kicking, screaming temper tantrums. 3. You can't legally kennel children. 4. If you leash a child, people look at you as if you have three heads where dogs on leashes are considered socially acceptable (hats off to those people who give society the middle finger by leashing their kids, anyway). 5. Dogs don't invite their friends over. 6. Dogs don't b*tch about their "stoopit" clothes. 7. You can spay/neuter dogs. 8. Dogs don't slam doors. 9. I can go out with friends without making arrangements for a babysitter or going to jail for leaving my child home alone. 10. No diapers. 11. They don't complain about dinner. 12. They don't ask to "borrow" my things. 13. They don't just take my things without asking (ok, that's not ALWAYS true :oops: ). 14. They sleep through the night. 15. They don't go through the whole Santa Claus thing. Whatever they get for Christmas, if anything, is fine with them. 16. Blah 17. So forth 18. Etc. Ok, really, I'm just kidding :oops: . To be totally deadpan serious, though, I really don't view dogs as little humans or even similar. I just can't get into that whole "mommy/baby" thing with my dogs (not knocking the people who do... it's just not me). I love them for being DOGS and not because I think of them as furry children. I'm not a child hater... I just have no maternal desire, nor do I particularly care to be in kid company. I just don't find them and their antics entertaining, but then I'm not much of a people person to begin with. It doesn't mean I wish to marinate children in a fine wine sauce, or banish them to their own little island (hmmm... :evilbat: ), or hide behind bushes and throw rocks at them. My worst nightmares begin with the words, "you're pregnant." :nerwy: :scared:

Oh, I missed this! Now, some may think me odd (and if they do, believe me it's not just because of THIS post :roll: ), but I "reward" my dogs for barking. I try relating to them. I want them to think that when they do that constant barking because it feels good thing, they're asking for something. That "something" is a spray of Bitter Apple right in the mouth. It's never used as a punishment. I'm perky perky perky :D :D :D . I give them a few freebie barks. They're dogs and maybe they're trying to tell me there's something in the yard, or something they think I need to know. Once I've said, "ok, thank you," I really mean "ok, that's enough." Anything past the "thank you" gets a "reward" of Bitter Apple. I only started this fairly recently and lemme just go ahead and tell you it works WONDERFULLY. One dog out of my ten actually likes the Bitter Apple, but she's not a bigtime barker and responds well to just evil looks (she's very tenderhearted), much less fussing at her. If you do something like this, you have to be very persistent and willing to stand and wait and approach the dogs each and every time the barking starts. It takes a lot of running in the very beginning, but my dogs figured it out very quickly. They think I'm a total dumb*ss for "misunderstanding" them, but they're allowed to have their opinions :wink: . Just remember perky perky perky :D :D :D as if you were handing out their favorite treats and only one tiny little spritz at a time directly in the mouth. It's not meant as a punishment.

[quote name='izzy'] "maybe the best is let him die pacefully"... :evil: :evil: :evil: At the end i took the dog to the vet and he put him to sleep, that was the best for the poor guy, he was so quiet and pacefull and the final hour. R.I.P. this good dog. :angel:[/quote] Let him die peacefully?? As in he intended to just let the dog lie there in agony until he died? What a bastard! Good for you for doing something. It's a shame the dog had to spend those hours needlessly suffering when the end result was going to be the same. There will always be idiot owners who have their priorities all screwed up. You did more than could have been expected of you. I believe there's a special place in heaven for people who care enough to help take care of those who can't take care of themselves.

Actually, I think we're on the same side here.

[quote name='Cairn6'] If we don't protect them from their idiotic parents who will. Some of you talk as if they are some sort of alien being. I have heard stories of some of you speaking up to protect a dog why wouldn't you do that for child.[/quote] Actually, I do. I'll report abuse and neglect and have no problem confronting people. I've turned my own family members in. I don't want to see anyone, animal or human, mistreated. It still doesn't mean I like ill mannered kids. I'm also not trying to place one life above another, or compare dogs to children (no, I love my dogs more... ok, sorry... *snicker*), but I just feel that if humans are supposed to be the more intelligent of the species, we'd use better sense instead of so many "out of my control" excuses. Does it not make sense that pedophiles are seeking easy targets? What makes a kid an easier target than not being under his parents' control, allowed to wander up to strangers at will? I have my own 11 year old kid sister that I've raised and helped raise since birth. No kid is a bigger brat to her mom than she is. I don't have those problems with her because I refuse to battle. I'm the adult, I'm in control, case closed. We can negotiate other issues, clothes, hair, "expression," whatever, but when it comes to safety and stranger danger, I won't. Throughout this kid's life, I can honestly say that I could account for her every second she was in my care. I've NEVER had to worry about her roaming away from me AND she's been slapped with the ADHD label. When she's with me, she's MY responsibility (dammit *mutter*) and I'm not going to have to wonder where she is or who she's bothering, [u]or[/u] who's bothering her. Her mom, on the other hand, tries to argue with her, negotiate with her and all that. As a result, this kid has been bitten in the face, lost in the woods, etc., etc., etc., throughout her life because her mom tried to "teach" her, but let the ultimate decisions be made by the kid. I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. I'm not going to endanger her life by giving a CHILD the responsibility of making decisions that are best handled by adults. It turns out this kid is happy and well mannered with me and knows how to behave. I don't have to put up with the tantrums, the whining and the obnoxious behavior her mom does (and dismisses it as result of ADHD). This kid thinks I rock and LOVES spending time with me. Could it be because I took away the stress of her having to worry about her role in my household by being the [u]adult[/u]?? Nope, nothing anyone can tell me is going to make me buy the excuse that "kids will be kids" when ignoring obnoxious behavior. It's not to say I expect all kids to be perfect. Only that I expect parents to PARENT their children, not stand idly by expecting total strangers to babysit for them.

TDG, is there anything you don't know? :wink:

Geez, when it rains, it pours, huh? :( It will be good to hear what the vet says. I've had a couple of seizure dogs and, like you mentioned, usually the first thing was to document everything. Severity, duration, that sort of thing. Some seizures were just mild head bobbing that many people probably wouldn't notice and some were the holy moly flailing about that most people think of with seizures. It's important to document anything out of the ordinary like head bobbing, blank stares, stiff leggedness and really anything that doesn't seem normal. Many times, you'll notice behaviors or movements that indicate a bigger seizure is on its way. I really hope this is an isolated incident. I've seen some dogs that have seizures very, very infrequently and they are usually not medicated for them. My vet usually prefers to medicate only once it's a pretty regular thing. One of the dogs I fostered that had seizures was actually hypoglycemic. Once he went on a schedule of eating several small meals a day, his seizures didn't go entirely away, but they certainly were decreased to where he didn't require meds anymore. Just something to consider. Sometimes you can find an easy solution and often there is no solution. Let us know what the vet says. I'm really hoping it's just an isolated incident. I hate that you're having to deal with so much all at once. :(

[quote name='Matty']If you are dealing with an older dog which is iffy, then any bad situations you expose it to will not improve but the dog. It will set it back even further. I perfer positive controlled situations for socializing dogs.[/quote] You say "[u]will[/u] set it back" definitively. I prefer "[u]can[/u] set it back." I've fostered many dogs who were nervous and shy, but frequent outings to places like PetWhatevers were perfect for socialization. Perhaps it was because I DID control the environment. I do not tolerate rowdy children when I don't have dogs with me and I don't put up with them when I do have dogs with me. I'm well aware of my surroundings in these places enough to get rid of (for lack of a better way to put it) a rowdy kid before it's a problem for my dog. I do allow POSITIVE interactions with my fosters which is what builds the confidence. So while it "will" set YOUR dogs back further, I've had much success. I've still yet to see an explanation of how to socialize a dog without, well, allowing it to socialize. [quote]I know quite a few people whose children suffer from a condition called ADD. The children are very hard to control if not doped up on medication. The parents have a very difficult time controlling the kids.[/quote] Why is this MY problem? Label your kid any way you want. It's still not MY job to put up with them. As I pointed out above, I can deal with these "behavioral" issues with people who are trying... the ones who acknowledge there is a problem and maybe at least try to get the kid outside until the episode is over, or make an effort to do ANYTHING but stand there shrugging their shoulders. My biggest rant is with the parents who just stand back, do nothing and slap some label on their child as if they are powerless to do anything. [quote]In a perfect world all parents would have perfect obedient children, in a perfect world all owners would have well behaved dogs. We don't live in a perfect world. I always expect the unexpected from children no matter the situation.[/quote] By the same token, expect the unexpected from dogs no matter the situation. No one has explained to me yet how it is children have such free reign to terrorize dogs because "kids will be kids" or "he has a disability," but dogs must be perfectly behaved robots and only allowed in public once they're well socialized, but they mustn't be socialized in public. Catch 22? Once and yet AGAIN, I'm not talking about blatantly aggressive dogs, but dogs that [i]need[/i] socialization. Make whatever excuse, or hide behind whatever label, but I still believe it is extremely irresponsible of a parent to let their child run up to another living being whether it is a human or dog. So the kid has ADD or whatever else. What's keeping that parent from holding his hand to make sure he stays there? Just DO something besides stand there like a knot on a log while the kid is on a rampage. Why is that so unreasonable? I just don't get this. Looking at the big picture, children are allowed everywhere except bars and clubs. There are very few places that allow dogs. Why is it so hard for these parents to at least try to maintain SOME control over these kids in the few places we are allowed with dogs? I don't care what kind of label you slap on them, I'm absolutely, undeniably, positively NOT going to allow someone else's "problem" to become mine. If it sounds cold hearted, then at least be glad [u][i]I[/u][/i] don't have children! I am!

[quote name='Tammy']As far as kids in stores...I always seem to have a leash in my purse...James has belt loops and AJ always has over alls on...so I have and do leash my kids.[/quote] I was actually going to suggest that for parents who "can't" control their kids, but knew it would open a whole 'nother can of worms and I'd hear the cries of "they're not dogs and I'm not treating them like one!!" I say whatever it takes. You sound responsible. :bigok:

[quote name='coastie_wife']If you cannot control your dog, don't take them in places where people will be.[/quote] Ah, but we're not talking about out of control dogs, but rather out of control children. [u]No one[/u] has said an out of control dog needs to be in public. [quote]There will always be jerks who don't control their kids, and there will always be children who don't listen to their parents. If you cannot handle that, don't take your dog places where children will be. I'm not sure why that is a difficult concept--I don't take my child places where he is likely to be attacked by dogs....I don't take my dog places where he is likely to be attacked by children. Seems pretty simple.[/quote] What I don't understand is how people expect dogs to be perfectly behaved robots in every possible situation, but "kids will be kids" and we can't expect them to be able to learn restraint. Who's the more intelligent species? :-? [quote name='kendalyn']but I've noticed that it's not uncommon for people who love dogs to not be very enthused about little children. Does this ring true for anyone else? The correlation surprises me because I can draw a lot of similarities between dogs and kids.[/quote] Actually, I don't think it's particularly true among just dog lovers as much as it's true among people who don't have/want children INCLUDING some dog lovers. There are just many of us who are fed up and frustrated with the constant excuses of how "kids will be kids and who can control them" stuff. I have no problem sharing the planet with kids. I do have a problem with the irresponsible parents who believe that everyone else should be as enchanted with their little darlin's as they are, or that others shouldn't mind their fit throwing, squealing, kicking, obnoxious behavior. Not here. I make no effort to be more than polite and won't even attempt that in the face of a raging, out of control brat. I can even try to deal with it if the parent in charge is at least making an effort to do something. It's those parents who stand idly by watching the whole thing and just leaving it to go on that bugs me. I'm not a child hater- just intolerant of obnoxious behavior from the offspring of apathetic parents. At least DO something other than pretend you don't notice. If you can't control them, take them outside, or better yet... [u][b][i]home![/u][/b][/i] They're yours- YOU deal with them! As guessed, I have no kids, but have fostered some. I don't buy the excuse that you can't watch them every minute in a store. I did. I've raised them from toddlers on up and they were NEVER out of my sight in a store and certainly not harrassing passersby or dogs and my parents raised me with the same control. The thought never crossed my mind as a kid to run up to total strangers and crawl up their legs, or pull on their clothes, or ask ten gazillion questions while my parents stood by and smiled sheepishly, or pretended not to notice. Didn't happen. What are you going to do when these "kids will be kids and who can control 'em" kids approaches someone who is more than aloof, but is a pedophile, or a murderer? These people look for easy targets. Out of control children who "just don't always listen" are easy targets. I promise you that if it ever hits home, you'll find a way to keep your kids under your control and in sight every single second you are in public. It's not impossible. If you don't do it out of respect for the people who don't wish to be bothered, one would think you'd do it out of love for your children and the desire to keep them safe. I'm not talking teens here, but very young CHILDREN. I often wonder who the adult is in these families. Note: The "you" above is meant in a general sense and not directed at any one person on the board. It's directed at irresponsible parents in general.

[quote name='kendalyn'] No, of course it's not anyone's responsibility to teach other people's kids doggy manners, but it's one good way to make sure they aren't bothering your dog anymore. And it turns a negative situation into a positive one for the kid and your dog.[/quote] I'm glad that works for you and I mean absolutely no sarcasm in that. It doesn't work so well for me because, honestly, I get rattled when someone's ill mannered young'un approaches me. I truly don't care to share a positive experience with them as much as I'd like to share NO experience with them. I'm more of a "teach them that all strangers aren't friendly" kind of gal, I reckon. :oops: It's wonderful that your dog is well mannered enough to handle the ruckus. I foster and some of them are works in progress. While I don't worry about them biting, I do not intend to have them antagonized, either. Again, I'm speaking of the ill mannered little kids with irresponsible parents. Ditto, ditto, double ditto to what Pumpkin said.

[quote name='coastie_wife'] If you are going to walk your dog in public, expect to be approached. [/quote] That's a double edged sword. Kind of like- if you're going to let your children encroach on someone's space, expect frustrated strangers to tell them to naff off. I understand that it's not a perfect world and that kids will misbehave. It doesn't mean they're my problem to deal with, though. [quote]I agree that children should not just approach a dog without warning, but at the same time, if your dog has issues where you are worried about them biting a child or other person......don't subject the public to them.[/quote] Simple solution... keep kids out of PetWhatevers then and I'll keep my dogs out of Toys R Us :wink:. I mean, using that logic, if you (figuratively) have a kid that isn't trustworthy around dogs, why take them into an area that will almost certainly have dogs? There are plenty of dog free places to go. There aren't very many child free public places to take dogs for socialization exercises. Seriously, I'm not worried about my dogs biting anyone because I can promise you that as long as I'm holding the leash, it ain't going to happen. However, I WILL, in a manner that leaves nothing open to interpretation, tell a boisterous young'un to back off. I feel well within my rights to not have to expect to be disturbed by someone else's rowdy kid. Approaching is one thing. That whole running up, squealing and lunging for my dogs is another. I won't tolerate it in my own personal space and don't expect my dogs to have to, either. Indeed it's not a perfect world, so expect strangers to become frustrated when they've had it up to here >imaginary line< with other people's ill behaved kids. Disclaimer: I'm not advocating taking blatantly aggressive dogs into PetWhatevers. However, I do feel they are great for socialization exercises for iffy dogs in the hands of responsible, competent handlers.

I dunno... I have kind of mixed feelings. While I wouldn't take a blatantly aggressive (lunging at everything moving) dog into PetThis or PetThat, I find them great places to work on socialization for iffy dogs, or dogs that are works in progress. It's kind of ironic to say that dogs need socialization, but then say that they must not be allowed in public until they're socialized. I've taken many a foster into the PetWhatever stores just to socialize them and see how they behave in a crowd away from home. I also have little tolerance for people who let their children run amok in public and expect the store, or other shoppers, to babysit them or entertain them. If people used common sense (dog owners AND parents), everyone could coexist peacefully in these places. I'll keep my dog close to me and under control and you (figuratively) do the same with your child and the two of them should have no problems. I have no problem curtly telling someone or their kid to back off when they are encroaching on my space (and that doesn't have to mean there's a dog with me :o ).

Tammy, you wrote my story right down to the age of the dog (5 years old). I went through the exact same thing last year with the testing, behavior modification, behavioralist consulting, diet changes, meds, etc., etc., etc., and still had to make the same decision you did. It's never an easy choice. One thing that MIGHT make you feel better.... in hindsight, as horrible as this sounds, I'm glad we did it. I was in so much denial beforehand, but once the grief and feelings of "failure" subsided, I realized how much less stress my entire household is suffering. It was almost a sigh of relief, not only for us, but for Penny who couldn't possibly have been happy living a life of trying to be a good girl, but not quite being able to control her outbursts. If you ever need an ear or a shoulder, I'm only a PM away.

I honestly don't have a problem with it considering how Pit(ish) looking dogs are stereotyped. I don't think it's any worse than the "single black female seeking love" ad that ran in the Atlanta paper and has been posted on every dog board (was a black Lab and calls were actually to the shelter). I get the feeling it was tongue in cheek and just don't see it posing a threat of starting a trend toward breeding short haired Goldens. I really don't see any harm in that humorous description. I would imagine that anyone interested in adopting the dog would know or be told that it was in fact an Am Staff (X?) just as all the lonely men who ended up calling the number in the "single black female" ad were told it was a Lab. It worked... as far as I know, the dog got a home which speaks volumes for that kind of innovative advertising since Labs and Lab mixes are a dime a dozen in shelters and notoriously hard to find homes for. I guess I can kind of relate. One of the first rescues that I pulled from the shelter was/is a 120ish lb Chow mix. The lady who ended up being the perfect home for him is terrified of Chows and would never consider owning one. When he became a Collie/Shepherd cross, she fell in love and they've been happy for about 2-3 years. Labeling matters. I say good for them for being so creative in their advertising, especially if it saves a life. 8)