Carolk9s

Congrats to you and Roxy on the progress that you've made!

Thanks again Johnny for answering my questions. I forgot to mention I would be away all weekend at agility trials which is why I'm late replying. I'm also exhausted! Your answers are pretty much what I expected but I wanted to hear it from someone in the know instead of simply relying on long held beliefs. I feel DogPaddle is really onto something saying breeding for temperament is the big key. Mydogroxy, please understand I'm not picking on you here, you say you got Roxy from a man with gamebred dogs. Haven't you had some concerns about Roxy's temperament? Again I am NOT in any way trying to poke a stick at you, just trying to remember what I've read and all. Seems like if Roxy is from gamebred dogs, and her temperament has caused you some concern, it kinda flies in the face of the assertation that gamebred dogs are more stable. I do know even when dogs are bred for sound temperaments some dogs just have ideas of their own about that.

Johnny, I appreciate your time in answering these questions. I have a couple more and they are purely questions as I am curious and interested in your OPINION. I have no desire on intention of being critical of your answers, I'm just trying to understand. First, I am 'assuming' that testing for gameness is another way of saying rolling or fighting the dogs? Is that the only test for gameness or are there others? If the only or even main test for gameness is rolling, does this, in your opinion, automatically-irrefutably-without a doubt-no two ways about it mean the dog is NOT human aggressive? No way, never, not gonna happen? Is it possible to have a dog that tested game and for that dog to at some point in his/her life exhibit inappropriate aggression towards a person? I ask because this is what I 'believe' is what has been said though not in exact words. That or I'm just dense.

Quoted from Courtnek 'Just FYI, if someone breaks into your house and you shoot him, unless he was carrying a weapon and you have video or eyewitnesses to prove it, YOU are in trouble,' I've always heard that if someone is breaking into your house and you shoot them, pull them the rest of the way inside so they are IN your house when the police arrive. 8)

I feel the same as Rosebud History of unprovoked aggression, dog is put down Provoked aggression with just cause, eval, most likely would not put the dog down but would work on some training just to remind dog that I am top banana. Nothing harsh mind you, positive remedial only. Would not want dog thinking it was ok to be aggressive if no consequences even from a provoked attack

Oh, BTW, do NOT let them sort out their differences on their own. You could easily end up with one or both dogs badly hurt, even to the extent of death. I would NEVER recommmend that bitches be allowed to sort it out on their own when there has been actual fighting and bloodshed, perhaps if only posturing with one dog clearly submitting and the other clearly accepting the submission. I would rarely think it was ok for males to sort out their own differences, again mainly if one clearly submitted and the other was accepting of that.

ACK! First and foremost, you KNOW your bitches are aggressive with each other, therefore you NEVER leave them alone together! NEVER. They MUST be separated, at least if there is no supervision, if they will not obey you then even with you present, they must be kept apart. I'm talking separate rooms with a sturdy door in between, not just baby gates. Why isn't Patti spayed? Spaying her 'may' reduce her aggression and possession issues, it may not but I would certainly have her spayed ASAP. If you CANNOT keep them 100% separated to avoid fights, then perhaps you WILL have to consider rehoming one of the girls.

Johnny, Yes, you are correct. The thread was in response to some questions some of us have about the term 'rolling' and how it relates to fighting. Thank you for providing some answers.

[quote name='yellowlabsrule']NOT FAIR! You get an awesome agility event, AND you actually have someone on dogo who lives CLOSE TO YOU!!!!!???!!! :([/quote] uh huh, cause I'm SPECIAL! 8)

sigh...I see there are no answers from Hmmmm to my questions. How are we, the narrow minded, hung up on a concept, refusing to understand supposed to become enlightened? I truly thought I would see some answers when I got back, I guess I will have to stick with my beliefs for now as no one cared enough to try and educate me.

First, who are any of US to say this topic should be closed? I still am OPEN to learning, I asked K some questions both on list and privately that have not been answered. My main issue, the one that started this, is Hmmmm being moralistic towards another who could use educating while he continues to 'temperament test' his dogs by rolling them. OK, someone please define rolling to me. I too have thought it is simply another word for all out fighting. If I'm wrong, I would LOVE to be educated and corrected. Truly I would. I am asking Hmmmm to please define this for me and for others. How does rolling differ from allowing the dogs to simply fight? What are the dangers of rolling to the dogs? Can a dog get killed during this? How long does a typical roll last? Do the dogs become physically engaged? If so, how long are they allowed to remain as such before being pulled apart? How old are the dogs when they are rolled for the first time? If a young dog does not 'pass', are they given a second chance? Would the same dog be rolled more than once? Multiple times? Certainly my perception of dog fighting is shaped by the media, AP being one of them, I am an avid follower of the Animal Cops show. However as HF said, doesn't matter to me if it's done in someones basement with ill treated dogs, money and drugs changing hands, or elsewhere, fighting is fighting. So if rolling is DIFFERENT from fighting, please please explain it. I DO try to keep my mind open just a crack so I AM willing to learn and adjust my thinking IF someone can break it down and explain to me what I am misunderstanding. And K, just because we do not all agree with you or one another, does not necessarily mean that WE are close minded and wrong. I choose to think for myself and question what I believe needs to be questioned. Oh, I will be away for about a day and a half but I will surely check on this topic when I return. I do hope to see some answers to my questions. I would not consider these answers to be 'talking about dog fighting' as I do not want or need to know of a specific 'roll' or fight, just the facts regarding. I will also of course check any pm's sent to me while away.

Yes indeed I will be there! In fact I have a few agility thingies to sell and I plan on running Candy around the course once or twice. Hope to see you, come on down!

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[quote name='K']Does anyone here actually know the difference between supervised, structured "temperament test game rolling" and set up dog fighting in a barn ...[/quote] Why don't you explain it to us K. Especially the 'temperament test game rolling'. Exactly what DOES this entail?

[quote name='K'] Long term breeding program...Hmmm has one she is having a mistake litter [b][color=red]YES TO BREEED MORE PITBULLS AND FIGHT THEM.[/color][/b] ...are we going to begin accepting back yard breeders with absolutely no knowledge or concience and welcome them in with open arms and congratulate them on yet another litter of bastard pups to a year old bitch puppy arriving into an insecure future???? [b][color=red]NEVER SAID WE SHOULD, YOU ARE COMBINING APPLES AND ORANGES. I THINK WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO EDUCATE ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BREED OR HAS AN OOPS LITTER ON THE WAY[/color][/b][/quote]

[quote name='K']There are SOOOO many differences between Hmmm and this person here... [/quote] Yes, we KNOW Hmmm fights his dogs. Period. I don't care what 'pearls' of wisdom fall from his lips, YOU are all to eager to embrace him in my opinion. If I knew a man who abused his wife, it would not matter how smart he was or how much clear, concise, correct info he could impart, I simply would not get past the fact that he abused his wife. If I knew a woman who abused her kids, same thing. You may not consider the above examples to be in the same category as one who fights his dogs, I do. Its that simple. I have heard that the RULES allow ANYONE. It sickens me that this includes one who fights his dogs. We can speak out against it all we want too but if we are willing to look the other way for just one person, we are just blowing smoke.

Can you bathe her in a tub? Do you have any oatmeal? An oatmeal bath might soothe her skin. Sounds like poor Nostalgia has some allergies also. I hope you don't plan to breed her, allergies can be genetic also. If no oatmeal, perhaps just a cool soak will soothe her skin. If you do have oatmeal, I think the slow cook kind is best, put some in an old stocking or some cheesecloth and tie the top. Soak this in some hot water squeezing the stocking to mix the oatmeal slurry into the water. Run a lukewarm to cool bath and pour the oatmeal water into it. Sponge Nostalgia all over with this, no need to rinse as there is no soap in it. If she will lie in the water, you can also drown some fleas.

Thanks Rowie, I am grateful for the support as I will not doubt be bashed at some point for my post. If indeed this is the same Hmmmm, then it certainly is sad, sad that many have apparently embraced this person and are willing to set a place at the table for him/her.

Aonir, Do you hope to show her in both the breed/conformation ring and obedience? If you want to show her in breed, I have heard that many will concentrate on that first, especially with a young dog. I've never shown a dog in breed so I will admit all I know I have heard from other sources. Is there a local kennel club anywhere near you? Sometimes they will have classes or clinics on how to show your dog. They'll help you learn how to gait her, stack her so she looks her best etc. You'll find out what kind of show collar to use as well as lead. If there is not one, is her breeder fairly local? Perhaps you could visit the breeder for some instruction. My personal opinion is if you want to show in breed, do just the basics of obedience for now. You of course want her to walk nicely on a lead but not necessarily in perfect heel position. If you drill that into her now, she might not be as 'showy' for you in the breed ring. If of course you are only interesting in obedience, then you can focus more on those exercises. Again if there is a local club that holds classes, they can be a great resource. Puppy class would be perfect. Hopefully someone with show experience can also reply and give you more info.

Ok, my flamesuit is on before I even type this. I have a really difficult time accepting comments and criticism from Hmmmm in regards to ruining 'his' breed. Please correct me if I'm wrong Hmmmm, but don't you fight your dogs and feel that fighting them is perfectly acceptable? Didn't you just have a bitch bred, no doubt to (hopefully) produce more fighters? My personal opinion here, I think the high ground is already far beyond your reach if the above is correct. If I am wrong, if I have mistaken you for someone else, I sincerely apololgize.

It varies with the bitch, coat length and thickness (or lack thereof) can play a part in when you will see visible signs. Best thing to do, contact your vet ASAP, ask about any specific prenatal care for your breeed, also ask when is the best time to have an ultrasound done. Then you will know if she is pregnant and the approximate # of pups to expect.

Enya, She is beautiful! I love her face, the puppy pics are just adorable. That Lab sure did get around didn't he!

OK proud backyard breeder, You do sound good and responsible and caring and meticulous. I would like more info. In addition to the concerns already mentioned about taking away potential homes from shelter dogs: What breed or breeds of dog do you have? What are the specific health issues associated with your breed(s)? What specifically are YOU doing to prevent occurrence of such health issues? If HD is present in your breed, do you xray breeding stock AFTER their 2nd birthday and get either OFA or PennHip (sp?) certification? At what age do you first breed your bitches and dogs? How often will you breed a specific bitch? These are just some questions I personally have before I would decide you are truly responsible or have been getting by on luck. Truly don't mean to offend, tho if these questions offend you, I'd wonder why. A FORMER friend of mine had two labs, I begged him not to breed, his partner was adamant that there WOULD breed. I asked him to have both his dogs OFA'd first, oh no that is not necessary, they are healthy and their parents are healthy. Sure enough, they bred the dogs. Pet quality labs. Lovely dogs but too damn many get put down every day as it is. Disgustingly, after weaning the litter, the very next time she came in heat, oops she was bred again. Poor girl ended up with mastitis to boot. As I said, FORMER friend.

Malamum, I totally understand your position. When Jesse passes on, I want another male Belgian, either a Sheepdog or a Tervuren. I may look into getting a puppy from a responsible breeder or I may look to rescue. But I do want another purebred Belgian in my life. This will not stop me from adopting another dog from the pound, if am looking for another girl down the road and I come across one in the shelter, I'll look into adopting her.

[quote name='DogPaddle']What precisely is the goal of this post "Your Special Guest" ?[/quote] Thank you DogPaddle. While I am just as sickened and dismayed about the attacks, I too wonder what point YSP is trying to make. Seems like an underlying agenda is present.