rotten_two

thanks again k -- once again in a couple of your previous posts you have seen past the actual bite and right to the dog logic of the situation! sometimes you have to get past the human emotion and think like a dog in order to understand what/why they do the things they do. 3 puncture wounds? not nearly enough to constitute a vicious attack! come on people --do you have any idea the damage a dog could do if he intended that attack, people have died! make no mistake i don't condone the biting or the pit owner being a complete moron. she should be punished and her dogs taken. i don't think tho the dog deserves to die! mutts4me: [quote]I agree with most that you say, but I'm highly disturbed by this comment. To repeat a question that's already been asked, what was he supposed to do, stand by and watch his dog being killed?[/quote] my point in that paragraph was that had this guy been educated enough he could have avoided a bite and harm to his dog or family. i am sorry if you feel highly disturbed by what i said. i will try to offer some explanation. ok so let's say joe schmoe shih tzu owner is walking down the street. he has taken no precaution (direct stop, big stick, treats) in case of a meeting with a strange and aggressive dog. pit bulls approach. 1) put yourself between your dog and the approaching dog. i understand you have done this. i have done this. if you can break the stare you might buy enough time for the other owner to get control of her dog who just *broke* the leash. ok so let's say said pit keeps approaching with the intent stare and aggressive body posture. 2) throw one hand in front of you -- arm outstretched and stiff and in a stern tone say "SIT, STAY" directed at the pit. some people may not realize that we too can use our body to communicate with dogs. believe it or not this might work about half the time. if the pit actually stops to think or even sits then you have a few more seconds. pit keeps coming? ok this is where we're getting desperate because all this happens in like 10 seconds. is there a bush? is there some gravel in the street? maybe a stick near? see when i walk the pups (first of all i am prepared) but i am on the lookout for things in the environment that could help in a real jam. 3) bush rock or stick near by to distract the dog. get in a bush, throw rocks at the dog's face. use a stick to distract the dog. no dice? well now you are left with using your own body to shield your dog. i would do this in a heartbeat because my dogs mean that much to me. i would fight another dog to save my own. call me crazy. call me stupid but if it came to that i would do it. i think most of you feel the same! now you have to target the pit. track his movements and try to prevent his getting to the shih tzu. use your body. try to hit him in the nose or the eye somewhere that will hurt enough to make him stop at least temporarily. brace yourself because at this point you risk being bitten but at least you have tried something. now realize that i am not so naive to think that any of these approaches will always or even sometimes work, but you have to take action. don't just stand there and pee yourself. some people act (take action) and some people react (brain shuts down not thinking -- deer in headlights). this dude reacted. admittedly it may get to the point of a bite anyway. but i would sleep much better at night knowing i did everything i could to deter it. no one wants to see their dog hurt. i am just suggesting that by re-training ourselves (by education and practice) to take action we could handle things better. i hope that clears things up. i was in no way shape or form suggesting the man stand idle and let the pit at the shih tzu! he had options!

thank you k! finally someone who understands! i know i will likely catch he*l for my opinion but i have to say it. even without all the details or being there to witness it myself i can (from the story mind you) make a couple conclusions about blame! 1) the pit owner is the exact kind of person that needs to have a fish as a pet! who doesn't routinely check leashes for damage etc? i would think (and maybe it is just me) that if you have a breed that is "touchy" in society that you are EXTRA careful. i am hypersensitive when my dogs are with me. i watch them like a hawk. i am also constantly on the lookout for things/situations that might get them riled up. i watch other dogs and their body language and i try not to assume that all dogs are friendly! 2) the pit owner -- i would like to shake her to see if anything rattles? i am sure there is a screw loose somewhere -- there has to be. it is quite evident that she is incapable of handling both dogs on a walk. take one at a time. and please -- you know if your dogs get crazy when they see other dogs! if you see another dog -- change direction, get ahold of yourself and your animals. warn people. ask them nicely to stop and wait until you can get out of sight! act like you have some sense! 3) shih tzu owners- how many different ways can it be said? NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER lift an object (that a dog desires) into your arms or above your head! do you think dogs can't jump? when you lift something they desire (small dogs, toys, children, food) it just boosts that prey drive and they want it more. i am not saying he did this to himself -- of course he didn't bite himself in the arm. i am saying there are much better ways to handle it and he could have maybe avoided a bite! we so need more education on how to deal with "aggressive" dogs. owners of the offending pups for sure need to be educated but so does joe schmoe dog walker. you have to be prepared because in this situation there is really no time to think. it never hurts to be prepared -- even if your dog is not the problem. you could carry a stick, some direct stop, some food treats to throw at the attacking dogs face, rocks in your pocket. this stuff could buy you valuable seconds. i bet you if you hit a dog in the face with food treats it will stop and redirect it's attention at least long enuff to scarf up the food. anything to break that intense concentration and hard eye! find a bush and get in it -- then the attacking dog has to think. education people! 4) the pits -- i don't think they need to be put down. i think the owner gets the punishment. take her privilege of owning dogs away -- forever. fine her heavily for not being able to handle her dog and let her pay the medical bills. i am really all for having the owner take responsibility for their dogs. don't kill the dog because the owner is stupid! place them in a home where they can be properly cared for -- they deserve that much! i do believe they need training or reconditioning. 5) the good samaritan -- obviously knew enuff to get the pits off and back into the apartment so kudos to him. there are not a lot of people out there who could react when they saw something like this happening. also the mother (shih tzu owner) and the child came out physically unscathed -- thank goodness. i would bet that the kid will either choose not to have dogs in the future or stick with the small dogs! i feel for them as this is a horrible thing to experience and i hope they can get thru it. i think they also need to educate themselves. sometimes i don't know why i bother. i can talk til i am blue in the face and these poor dogs will still likely die. there will always be an ignorant human in the picture. today somewhere in the world this will happen again. i am continually disappointed in the human race. we have the more advanced brain -- why not use it?!

woo hoo do the doody dance! [img]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_209.gif[/img] [img]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_14_1.gif[/img] [img]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_209.gif[/img] glad she is back to her normal self!

[url]www.softouchconcepts.com[/url] is where you can get the sense-ation harness. it does have a plastic buckle that clips under the chest (or at the side depending how you set it up). the part that the leash hooks to is metal and that is where all the pressure will be absorbed so i think if you got it with the proper fit it would help. they only come in 2 colors (black and purple). if you have questions please call them and ask about the fitting -- they will customize if needed!

yep that sounds exactly like what gaia had struggled with! after exercise it would get worse and sometimes it looked like she stumbled when she would get up! we took her to orthopod after orthopod and they all did xrays and mris, argued about which leg she limped on and no diagnosis. everyone said oh it must be a tendon. they all wanted to do exploratory surgery! finally i took her to the holistic vet who does acupuncture and chiro. turns out she had some scar tissue on the muscle of her shoulder (left front) and one of her neck vertabrae was out of alignment. after a chiro adjustment and 3 acupuncture treatments in that shoulder she is fine! have you had a vet look at it? gaia is one of those dogs who has 2 speeds -- completely on or napping! she barrels thru things -- a brut force girl if you will. is zoey the same?

personally i think this topic is gonna get everyone a little hot under the collar and for lots of different reasons. maybe it should go into the debate section! my thoughts are as follows: the dog parent . . . 1) should at the very least offer to pay the medical bills that the insurance does not cover 2) should not leave a 14 year old boy in charge of an adolescent shelter dog 3) should probably rethink her ability as a responsible owner -- get your dog up to date on shots for pete's sake or get a more suitable pet -- hmm how bout a fish? 4) hello -- spend the vacation money to get your dog the training it so very obviously needs as a proud momma of 2 "VICIOUS" (that is total sarcasm people) rottweilers i would not put my family or guests in that situation. the dogs would be put away BEFORE the guests arrived and would be kept busy in their crates with interactive toys. if they were brought out they would be well supervised by me. unfortunately not everyone shares my thoughts about always keeping two eyes peeled! i feel you can not trust your dog 100% in any given situation. 99% maybe but there is always something that could push the dog to bite. dogs bite, period. every dog is capable it is a matter of what it takes to make it bite. the child parent 1) hindsight is 20/20 -- of course your child should not have been unsupervised with this dog. unless taught otherwise -- children are a bit inept when it comes to reading doggie body signals. i am sure there were warnings before the bite but likely the kids did not really pick up on them. for one thing the one kid had the dog by the collar. the dog likely felt it could not escape from a stressful situation. at a birthday party kids are excited, loud, exuberant, etc all things that can be construed as aggressive type displays. i'd say count your lucky stars it was not worse! this is a very unfortunate situation and so easily prevented. happens everyday and many a good dog has suffered for our stupidity!

allergies are weird beasts! i am allergic to just about everything outside, most things inside and especially cats! if a person at work has a cat and comes in my office my eyes start swelling from the cat dander they drag in. i love cats i just can't be around them much. i am not however allergic to dogs -- God spared me my one true passion i guess! they make a wide variety of otc and prescription allergy meds and the best thing is to try and see what works for you. i used to take benadryl but my body built up a resistance and this year i finally bit it and started on zyrtec. all these new meds advertise things like "controls indoor and outdoor" allergies. or pet specific allergies. natures miracle makes a spray to help control the dander on the dog so maybe that would help too?

hey DAL can you describe this limp? the reason i ask is that my female had a limp too for almost a year before anyone figured it out. how old is zoey?

yes a harness could be very beneficial here. not only will it prevent the strain and stress on his neck if he does pull but it will make it easier on you too. i suggest something like the sense-ation harness. it works in the same way a snout collar works except it is over the shoulder. my female rott only weighs 80 pounds but if she sees something she wants and starts to pull i would swear she is 180! we got her a sense-ation harness and suddenly i have power steering and i don't worry as much that she will hurt herself. [url]www.softouchconcepts.com[/url]

well when you do the yelp you are then supposed to walk away and ignore the pup for a couple minutes. this way he associates bites = good things come to an end. then in a couple minutes you can try to resume interaction. if he does it again repeat the process. try not to let him keep biting you.

me too on the karelian bear dog. he was in a puppy class i subbed for. not that we have a bear problem in md! i know these dogs are more prevalent in alaska, washington state, etc. i asked the guy if he had a bear problem (of course i was being a smarta$$) and he was like uh no -- well then i guess the dog is a success hahaha!

honestly i got my second rotten butt thru rescue (roxies fund) and it took a very short time for us -- from the time we applied til pick up maybe 3weeks? in that time they came out for a home interview, we did a phone interview and he got neutered. all rescues have different levels of organization and different numbers of dogs for adoption -- so try not to get discouraged if it takes a while. have any friends with dogs? maybe you could dogsit whilst you wait?

we call gaia either gai gai, gaia girl, snuggle butt, or diva princess [img]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_3_3v.gif[/img] aspen is aspy, huggabear [img]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_1_145.gif[/img], and/or spudsy. if he is being a brat he is simply "son."

oh one thing i might have forgotten to mention is that if you do have to take him out in the middle of the night you might think to carry him. sometimes they are less likely to let fly until their feet touch the ground.

yes haha come in kiger, can you hear me? hahah!

yay! good for you and whew! that was a close one for patti. you might think of reading the booklet "feeling outnumbered" by pat mcconnell and karen london. it deals with issues in multi-dog households. in my opinion pat mc is the leading authority on dog-dog aggression so it may do you good to use some of her other tools as well. you don't happen to live in wisconsin do you? that is where she is hq'd. you can find her material at [url]www.dogsbestfriendtraining.com[/url] if you are interested. jean donaldson just put out a new book too on dog dog issues tho i have not read it yet. you can find it at [url]www.dogwise.com[/url] hang in there!

is this the first time raisin has not been able to hold himself thru the night? i suspect not since he is so young. as a general rule pups can hold it for their age in months plus 1 hour. so if raisin is 3 mos you should plan to take him out at the very least every 4 hours or so. of course everydog is different so it can vary. i don't think you did anything wrong. you took him out before bed, you got up and took him out to finish and i hope you praised like crazy when he peed outside. come in and clean up and start anew. you might think about putting the crate closer to you at night -- maybe right beside your bed. there are a couple reasons to do this 1) dogs like to be near us and 2) the close proximity can allow you to hear the pee whimper much earlier and you can react faster.

yes follow their noses they certainly do. it is the beauty of a hound. here is the sense-ation harness website. [url]http://www.softouchconcepts.com[/url] check it out. they are a bit expensive and realize your pup will grow. they do adjust but i am not sure to what degree. i have them for my dogs but they are pretty much grown so i don't have to worry about the fit in 2 months. i can definitely understand your frustration with not being able to put up a fence -- that sucks. maybe you could find a playground or such that is fenced for a bit of off leash play. you could get a long line (15 - 20 feet) if you wanted to give a little more freedom. i wouldn't do it until raisin can walk nicely on a loose leash tho. it also sucks that there is no obedience where you live. socialization with other humans and pups is a very important stage in development. you can definitely check the apdt (assoc of pet dog trainers) website just to make sure there is no one in your area. they have listing of positive method trainers by area. maybe there is something "close" to you. [url]www.apdt.com[/url] hope this helps.

hey i am a military brat too :) my father was stern without being physical. i think you can be a leader to your dog (parent to your children) without the use of physical force. trish mcconnell calls it being a benevolent leader. your job is to teach and nuture this dog as well as to protect it. i can totally respect your father, my father, parents in general because they do what they have to and what they think is best. i am just suggesting we use their experience, the studies of others etc to improve upon these methods. i do agree with you that there has been some breakdown in the parent/child relationship but i don't think hitting is an acceptable tool -- what does that teach them? there are much better ways to coach your children. to clarify i am not preaching no punishment -- there is punishment (both + and -) in this training method allbeit it is used sparingly. all i am saying it that the correction does not have to be physical. ok i digress. on the toe biting. you certainly could spray the bitter apple on your toes and that might deter the nibbles. however be warned there are dogs that do not find the taste that offensive. i think the yipe or ouch or no will work here too. yipe -- remove yourself -- and ignore for a few minutes. come back with something appropriate to chew on. hope that helps.

haha i can identify with you because your problems are not uncommon. so he has figured out to bark to get outside. wow! isn't that the coolest thing? however most of the time we forget to teach the quiet cue, which means enuff with the barking already, until we notice they bark all the time haha. maybe you need to put the bark on cue with a word like speak or bark. if the bark alerts you to his need to potty outside that is great as long as you want him to do it. if you have a potty schedule like cassie mentioned then you pretty much know if he has to potty and can therefore decide if he truly needs to go (now there are exceptions of course and it is up to you). if you suspect he just wants to go outside to goof off and you have no time for it then i would start training the quiet cue or at the least ignoring his solicitation. if he persists a short time out may be in order. if you are unsure of his bladder/bowel condition then i would take him out on lead (just in case he really has to go), go to potty area, give him time to go and if not producitive bring him back in. he only gets to play if he first goes potty. the goal is that he learns bark at the door means i gotta go not i wanna play. you decide when he can play outside not him. be patient he will get it. not sleeping at night -- the first thing i would say is shame on you, j/k. if i read the post right he *gets up and comes over and barks* hmm why is pup not in crate at night? as we all know dogs bark for a variety of reasons -- frustration, boredom, defense, to get attention. your particular case sounds like maybe a little boredom, frustration, attention dealy. if you are going to let him sleep out of crate at night i would suggest when he barks 1) taking him out to pee just in case and 2) plop him in the crate with a stuffed kong toy if he does nothing outside. i am wondering about exercise. i know you said you take walk/run with him and that is great -- physical exercise is a great way to tire them especially if you pair it with a mental workout. maybe have a short training session shortly before bed time. give his mind something to do and he may sleep for longer. you can do basic obedience stuff, maybe hide and seek, cutesy little tricks -- anything you want to work the mind. ever noticed how tired you get if you concentrate on something for a while? same principle. i hope this made sense?

let me just be nosey for a second here. how old are you hounddogdaddy? not sure you have ever said and i guess i just figured you were at least out of school and i am formulating my advice as such. ok back to your concern of leash pulling. i hate to break it to ya but you are pretty much going to have to use a leash with raisin whenever you are not in a safe fenced area (the whole hound issue). the trick is to train yourself and the pup to use it correctly. there are a couple things i could suggest here. find a good postive puppy kindergarten (if i am wrong and you are not financially independent from parents then you may need to talk to them about it). the puppy k will teach you many many things about normal puppy behavior (mouthing, walking politely on leash, etc) and how to modify the unwanted bits. for training i would recommend you play "i'm a tree" when he starts to pull. pull = hounddogdaddy stops forward motion. you can call him back to you, make kissy sounds or whatever (treats/ toys) to get him to turn back to you and at the moment he turns even his head and stops pulling you can say ok let's go and begin forward progress. granted when first teaching this lesson you may not get very far on your walk -- but don't get frustrated he will get it. also if you are concerned about his neck you can try several other tools. the halti collar fits over the snout and gives a bit more control over where he can go. you do not want to let the dog hit the end of the leash on the snout collar (or any collar really). even better may be the sense-ation harness which operates under the same principle as the halti (where the front of the body goes so goes the back) but it distibutes the pressure differently -- into the shoulders/chest area. again obtaining these tools may be a bigger deal if you still rely on parents for $$$. as with most things dog these are not the only methods you can use. there are a variety of ways to train the same thing so you may find another method that works well too. you have to find what works for you and raisin.

good grief! i am not trying to be rude and please don't take it that way but i have watched the progression of your posts and i can no longer hold my tongue! at first i thought you might be a wacko wiseacre who was asking these questions to incite a riot on a forum where "do no harm" is the motto. now tho i am not so sure. maybe you genuinely need advice about raising a pup. i hope this is the case and i do hope you take our advice to heart. the first thing i would say to you is discard all the garbage material from which you are getting your info. the other end of the leash by pat mcconnell is an excellent suggestion <click and treat for TDG> another couple books you might invest in are culture clash by jean donaldson and the power of positive dog training by pat miller. next, stop taking advice (on dog training) from your father! our fathers' generation had some really old fashioned ideas about how and what to do to train dogs. ear pinching, ear biting, scruffing, helicoptering all totally unnecessary. whatever it is you hope to accomplish in training can be done more quickly and efficiently with postive methods. physical punishment to me is just not an option. would you ever dream of beating your children into submission? ever heard the phrase violence begets violence? you could end up with more serious problems. positive training is not only humane but very easy -- how can you go wrong with praise/treats for being a good dog?! let me ask you this -- when the pup is mouthing and biting you what are you doing? are you playing with him in a manner to make him more mouthy? for instance do you shake a toy near his mouth to get his attention? alot of times people actually unkowingly promote mouthy play. men in general (sorry) tend to play rougher with dogs. my suggestion is this -- the first time he mouths or nips immediately yipe or say no and play ceases for a couple minutes. you ignore him completely. when he has calmed resume and repeat if necessary. now it is important to stop it the very first time he nips. i have had people say to me well the first two didn't really hurt so i let them slide! no matter, if the dog is to learn that humans are not chew toys then he must be coached everytime he makes that mistake. try it. be consistent and if you truly need help the people here are more than qualified and happy to give advice.

here is my suggestion -- this is only my opinion . . . on bathing -- the tub, water, shampoo are all things you would introduce gradually in an ideal world over a period of time. now i understand you just got her and she is stinky poo but i think i would still try to do it gradually maybe over the course of a few days. work with her in the tub today maybe 1 or 2 quick 5 minute sessions until she is comfortable being in there --lots of praise and lots of way yummy snacks. then maybe tomorrow do the tub and run some water and see her reaction. always praise/treat for not stressin and being calm and accepting. if she seems ok maybe touch her all over as if you were lathering her up while the water is running. and then progress from there -- sprinkle her feet with water, etc. only progress tho when she is accepting and calm. in my experience dogs who are learning to take baths don't necessarily like to stand in water so maybe you can use a cup to wet her down and rinse her instead of filling the tub. be sure when you do finally really bathe her that you have someone to help with giving lots of treats. in the meantime one remedy for the stinky dog is nature's miracle. they make a spray deordorizer for stinkers haha -- petsmart has it. i would spray it generously on my hand and rub it all over her (then wash hands hahaha). i think if you take the time up front to do things gradually it will pay off later and she will associate baths with good things.

if you're getting the ilp then why not join an akc club in your area? they often provide training and hold the occasional fun show. they might even direct you to other agility clubs (there have to be some near you). i looked on the akc website under agility clubs and this is what i found in myrtle beach -- i dunno how near or far it is to you. Myrtle Beach Kennel Club Corresponding Secretary : Nancy Lee Smalley Address: 215 78TH AVE N, MYRTLE BEACH, SC , 29572-4301 Email: [email]SCTEXASAGGIE@AOL.COM[/email] Club Type: All Breed maybe an email to this club could get you started :D

there was just an article in the whole dog journal about de-skunking a dog -- tis the season i guess.