TDG

unlike dogs, cats are obligate carnivores, so they [b]need[/b] meat in their diet to stay healthy and are much more likely to be affected by a poor quality food than dogs. for dry foods to be extruded, the food mix has to have a grain content of about 50% for the manufacturing process to even work, otherwise the extruder gets clogged up. so you can be pretty sure that the top-quality foods have about 50% meat content, while cheaper types of food may just have 12-15%. corn is not a bad ingredient in itself (not even for dogs!) but is one of the least digestible grains, rice is the most digestible, and neither should be the main source of protein in a quality food for cats [b]or[/b] dogs. 3 other things you should be concerned about in a cat food is ash level, magnesium level and phosphorus level. feeding a food high in phosphorus can lead to damaged kidneys and kidney failure, high ash/magnesium levels are bad for the urinary tract. natural balance, innova, felidae and wellness are top-quality cat foods, only to name a few. i used to feed my cats nutro and i can only say the change has been dramatic since i switched them to innova, plus their poop doesn't smell as bad and there is less "material" to clean up from the litterboxes.

i think your best bet might be to contact some manufacturers directly. some produce identical lines to their domestic ones, specifically for export. here's a link to a sort of "archive" that has contact information for a lot of different foods and gets updated often. [url]http://www.mordanna.com/boards/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=dogfood[/url] good luck! :)

i think a lot of people still think that canned food is worse for a dog's teeth than kibble. the truth? they are probably about the same. dry food might be a little more abrasive, but it can also stick to the teeth quite badly and cause plaque that way. canned food is not abrasive, but generally has more live enzymes that contribute to oral health left after the manufacturing process. how clean a food (dry or wet) keeps your dog's teeth depends on the individual product and on the individual dog as well. i've seen some pretty nasty teeth from a high quality dry food (wellness) and very clean pearly whites from a private label "middle of the road quality" canned food. personally i gave up on canned food entirely because it [b]is[/b] expensive by comparison and as an "extra" added to kibble i don't like it [i]that[/i] much. it's just adding more cooked/processed stuff to the diet. thus i supplement my dog's kibble meals with fresh, human quality fruits and veggies (mushed to a pulp), eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, meats and bones - things that don't have a large amount of the functional nutrients processed out of them already. generally you can add about 20% meat without bones to a kibble meal without upsetting the calcium-phosphorus ratio (in case you are unsure and can't find this information on the manufacturer's website, email/call them and ask!). if bones are present in the meat, it counts as "balanced" in itself.

[quote name='Crested']the vet has diagnosed it as allergies (and so have I) but it's never been THIS red[/quote] has the vet been specific as to [b]what[/b] allergies? my dog (who isn't a hairless but has a fairly thin, sparse coat on his belly) had spots like that from scratching himself when he had a flea allergy dermatitis. there is no cure to allergies except avoiding the allergen entirely, or desensitizing (mostly done via injections). for either method to work, you have to find out what the allergen is. have you used any new cleaning products, laundry detergents, skin care products on yourself, or anything that you can connect to his problem flaring up? been feeding something new/different? aside from contact allergies (pollen/grass, dust mites etc.), food allergies are the most common cause. i don't know what approaches you have taken yet, but here are a few ingredients of commercial foods that often cause allergies in dogs: - wheat, corn, soy, and their respective fractions (like wheat gluten, soybean meal, corn grits), especially when poor quality grains are used - yeast (like brewer's yeast or yeast culture), - beef (like beef, beef meal, beef byproducts, etc.) i'm also familiar with cases where dogs were for example intolerant to chicken, to an extent where even an otherwise lamb-based food that just had chicken fat as an ingredient caused problems. the owners were able to track down allergens in foods by trial and error and successfully battled the problem by feeding a food that had only lamb as an animal source ingredient and sunflower oil as a source of fat. i hope you'll be able to pin down the problem soon, i know how miserable my own dog was when he had to scratch all the time. :(

the substance you mean is pentobarbital, and yes, a few years ago traces of it were found in some pet food brands. the FDA study was published, you can read about it here: [url]http://www.fda.gov/cvm/efoi/DFreport.htm[/url] [url]http://www.fda.gov/cvm/efoi/dfchart.htm[/url] as for rotating between foods, i am a firm believer in it, not as much because of pets developing food intolerances but because i think that if one food has too little or too much of a particular ingredient/nutrient/substance and lacks another, it's more likely to even out over time if you feed different ones instead of just getting worse if you stick to the same brand year after year. and my dog clearly enjoys the variety as well, even if i supplement his food with a lot of fresh, raw components like fruits, veggies, dairy products, eggs, meats etc. regarding different lifestages or diet foods, i say humbug. foods for different lifestages are an attempt of dog food manufacturers to make their products take up more shelf space, thus become more visible, so more people will buy their brand instead of that of the competitor. a healthy, normal dog's eating habits are far different from humans, unless the poor animal has been so spoiled by its owners that its natural instinct got completely buried. dogs eat to fulfill an energy requirement and most of them don't care if they have to eat 4 cups or 3 cups or 2 cups a day to fulfill that need. so say your dog is a bit overweight and to reach a desired target weight he should eat 800 kcal per day instead of 1200. let's assume your regular food has a caloric density of 400 kcal per cup. you would simply reduce the daily feeding amount to 2 cups from 3 cups and your bag of food would last a bit longer. the dog food companies would rather sell you a (often more expensive) diet food that has 267 calories per cup but includes a lot of grains, fillers and fiber and tell you to continue feeding 3 cups a day and spending money. don't worry about the dog not getting enough nutrients, if he is overweight, it's more likely he got more than he needed from what he was eating before instead of not getting enough from a reduced ration. most senior foods i find outright scary. yes, most older dogs are less active and thus require less calories per day, but they also have a harder time maintaining muscle mass and body tissue and would benefit more from elevated levels of essential fatty acids and other nutrients than decreased ones - yet most "senior" foods also have higher levels of grains and fillers than normal all lifestage foods. most vets did not receive a terribly detailed nutritional training, and most of the courses that [i]are[/i] offered are usually sponsored by companies like hill's or purina who just want to sell you a product.

in some cases there's definitely a possibility it's horse meat. here are the official AAFCO definitions: "Meat Byproducts" [i]The non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat, derived from slaughtered mammals. It includes, but is not limited to, lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially defatted low temperature fatty tissue, and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It does not include hair, horns, teeth and hoofs.[/i] see where it says "from [b]slaughtered[/b] mammals"? this means that the parts come from animals that are considered fit for slaughter for some purpose, they are not roadkill or diseased. they are labeled as "mammals" because they are not fish or poultry. so you could expect meat from pigs, goats, horses, rabbits, cattle, sheep, etc. or any combination of them. "Meat Meal" [i]The rendered product from mammal tissues, exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices.[/i] notice how the phrase "from [b]slaughtered[/b] mammals" is missing here? your only limitation is that the tissue is from mammals - so not fish or poultry - but they did not have to be slaughtered. in this case roadkill, 4D etc. would fit the category. here are a few more "generic" animal-source ingredient definitions for you: "Animal Digest" [i]The material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and undecomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed.[/i] again, no hint at the fact that the animals were required to be "slaughtered". "Animal Fat" [i]Obtained from the tissues of mammals and/or poultry in the commercial process of rendering or extracting.[/i] this is a byproduct from the rendering process of "meat meal", see further up. "Poultry Byproduct Meal[/b] [i]The ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcasses of [b]slaughtered poultry[/b], such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines, exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices.[/i] this one is at least somewhat specific again, slaughtered poultry could be chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese etc., or a combination of them, but not road-killed birds or for example a load of dead seagulls someone had to dispose of. "Poultry Meal" [i]The dry rendered product from a combination of clean flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts of whole carcasses or a combination thereof- exclusive of feathers, heads, feet, and entrails.[/i] no reference to "slaughtered" poultry, but it does mention carcasses, which are usually what "animal bodies slaughtered for food" are referred to - if it were something that died otherwise, it would more likely be referred to as a "cadaver". so theoretically "anything" could be in there, but it's most likely just whatever is left over at the giant poultry processing plants. the definitions for animal feed ingredients are very ambiguous and encompass a wide range of quality to protect the manufacturers, but the "legalese" is not very easy to understand for the end consumer. generally it's a good idea to stay away from any "generic" animal source ingredients, be they byproducts, meals or fats, just to be on the safe side and because their quality and nutritional value can differ drastically from one batch to the next, which of course also affects the end product: dog food.

it really depends where you live. personally i would not recommend giving heartworm preventives all year round, unless you (a) live in an area where heartworm is prevalent [b]and[/b] (b) mosquitos are present all year round. keep in mind that heartworm preventives are in fact pesticides, they do not "prevent" a dog from becoming infected but kill the early-stage microfilariae if they are already present. also, sometimes even dogs that are on heartworm preventives still get infected. weigh the risk of dosing your dog with a pesticide all year round for his entire life versus the chance of him actually contracting heartworms. [b]especially[/b] if you also have to deal with fleas and ticks and give preventives for these parasites as well. personally i live in a rather low-risk area and have decided against heartworm medication entirely - instead i have heartworm tests done regularly. just make sure your vet uses the correct test to detect them, not a blood smear test but the "ELISA" antibody test. this site is to date the best i have found on unbiased, non-manufacturer-influenced heartworm information: [url]http://www.bullovedbulldogs.com/heartworm.htm[/url] here's a page on a natural approach to heartworm prevention: [url]http://www.naturalrearing.com/newsandviews/articles/heartworm.htm[/url] whatever you decide to do, just don't let your vet administer the proheart 6 6-month shot. that stuff has not been tested properly and killed many dogs, some even only after they had it administered 2 or 3 times without problems.

you could leave out the carbohydrates from your homemade food, not just in the winter but period - dogs do not need high levels of them in their diet anyway and they are getting more than enough from the kibble. the mass for extruded dog food must have a certain amount of grains present or it will clog up the extruder. just give meats and vegetables.

it is not that i have problems with my dog's teeth in general, they are fine again after he has been off wellness for a few months now. thus my saying above i'm not looking for any advice on what to do or try to keep them clean(er), i just wanted to hear what other people's experiences with wellness are and what kind of dogs they own, since i have heard that some folks have noticed the same. personally i rotate foods every few months too, not because my dog stops eating a particular one, just to offer some variety and balance out nutrient levels that differ from brand to brand.

MajiesMom, have you fed wellness for any length of time? i am interested in hearing feedback from other folks on how wellness affected their dog's teeth. while it is a great food otherwise, i wasn't happy with that aspect of it at all, since my dog had a lot of plaque build up from it. i'm not looking for a discussion about what to do to avoid buildup or recommendations of feeding product X etc., just statments along the sort of "yes, i have noticed that with wellness too" or "no, i haven't seen any difference comparing to other foods". thanks! :)

small addendum to the whole dog journal's recommendations tho. those that are recommended are not the only "good" foods on the market. here's what the author has to say: "There are hundreds of dog foods on the market that I

ask 20 different people what the best dog food is and you get 20 different answers. it all boils down to what's acceptable for you and what isn't. for that you have to learn what the different ingredients actually are, and how a dog benefits from having (or NOT having) them in a food. if you want to learn more about dog foods and the ingredients used, have a look at this page, it has some good advice as well as links to other informative sites. [url]http://home.comcast.net/~Mordanna/dog[/url]

i have an alternative link for those of you who are interested in a breeder's opinion about the purdue study. [url]http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/on_my_soap_box_purdue_bloat_study.htm[/url] i am with linda arndt on this subject.

many dog food manufacturers state that their kibble is formulated to remain balanced even when meat is added. i don't think that there is an issue with mixing raw and kibble, since dogs are scavengers by nature and eat predigested food as part of their "natural" diet as well. many people just don't like to pay much attention tot he fact that carrion and stomach contents of prey is a form of predigested food. an example from timberwolforganics.com: Q: May we mix raw or cooked meat in with your kibble? We recommend that you mix in 10 - 20% raw or cooked meats and organs if you like. Our Black Forest

this page has a nice list of what to look for and what to avoid: [url]http://home.comcast.net/~Mordanna/dog/identify.html[/url]

canidae is one of the really high quality dry foods. personally i prefer innova, but i would feed canidae as well. as for the meals, it's one of the things a lot of people get confused about. you might want to check out this website for some additional info, it has some great information and also a page that tells you what to look for in a good food product and why. [url]http://home.comcast.net/~Mordanna/dog/[/url]

there are several things you can add to your dog's food to support his/her health. dosage would depend on what and how much is already present in the food you are feeding. e.g. most low to mid range brands do not contain probiotics or significant amounts of omega fatty acids. omega 6 and 3 fatty acids, probiotics, enzymes (both metabolic and digestive), vitamins, various herbs and so on. it's always safest to supply the above in a natural form, not only is the quality much better but you also do not risk oversupplementation and resulting health issues. missing link, nupro, doc krugers or the wellness supplements are excellent choices. instead of flax oil i prefer fish oil though (e.g. salmon oil). yogurt is a food most dogs love for the taste, but if you want it to have a real effect, make sure you feed a brand that has viable, live cultures.

personally i prefer feeding two meals. i believe it's less harsh on the dog's metabolism as far as blood sugar levels etc. are concerned, especially if the animal gets a lot of exercise or works. how much you feed depends on the shape your dogs are in and a number of other factors. if they aren't overweight, they are eating the correct amount. what's printed on the label is only a guidesline. the amounts you mentioned sound about right on a per day basis, so if you feed 2 meals, divide it up. if you think it's too much, reduce the amount, keep an eye on your dog's weight and if necessary increase the ration.

i don't know much about the relationship between your dogs, so i don't feel qualified to comment on that, but if he is lethargic, it's definitely something to be concerned about. does he eat and drink normally? have you switched foods recently? did he get into something he isn't supposed to eat? you can give vitamin C as a natural laxative, but if there are other signs of him not being well except no stool, i would not take any risks and take him to the vet.

have you checked out independent pet stores or small local chains? i don't know where you live, so of course i don't know your situation either, but i understand if you are somewhat limited in your choice. smaller pet stores are often very cooperative in special ordering items for you too, so no need to buy online.

i know it sounds very odd because freshness is always stressed so much with other ingredients, but you are actually getting the better product in a food that uses meat meals instead of "wet" meat. ingredients are listed by weight [b]before[/b] processing, so if you see for example "chicken" as a first ingredient and "rice" as a second, that chicken still includes about 75% water. by the time the finished product reaches its final moisture content (usually between 9 and 14%), all that water is removed and you have only about 1/4 of the meat content you started out with. meat meal has most of the water and some of the fat removed already before it is added to the food mix, so there is no "shrinkage" and what you see is what you get. also the manufacturer is able to include many times the amount of animal protein in the dry food, as opposed to using fresh meat, which "gunks up" the extruder if the food mix includes too much fresh meat, so the manufacturing process wouldn't work. the important thing to note is that you want a meat meal of a [b]defined[/b] source (chicken meal, turkey meal, beef meal, pork meal etc.) and [b]not[/b] anything generic, like "meat meal", "poultry meal", "meat and bone meal" and so on. if it's a generic name, the manufacturer has reasons for hiding something that they would rather not disclose to their customers. as for the price difference between the F&S formula and wellness, i was going by the price given on their website, since you were going to have it shipped. [quote] Dry Adult Dog Food - Chicken & Brown Rice (30 lb. bag) Additional shipping weight fee of $4.50 per item. $ 29.99 [url=http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=8959&N=2001+6000+113133&in_merch=1]link[/url] Wellness Super5Mix Dry Adult (30 lb. bag) Additional shipping weight fee of $4.50 per item. $ 34.99 [url=http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=8752&N=2001+6000+113133&in_merch=1]link[/url] [/quote] so if the difference is only $5, i'd definitely go for the wellness.

when i give human supplements to my animals, i usually just calculate the dosage down from the human recommendation. if a weight is not given and you are uncomfortable guessing, maybe you can ask the manufacturer. for herbal supplements i usually don't fuss and assume about 165 pounds as average human body weight and calculate as follows: dosage divided by human body weight, then multiply the result with the body weight of the pet. for example for my 13 lb cat: recommended supplement 500 mg a day divide by 165 = 3 mg, times 13 = 39 mg unless i'm dealing with nutrients where toxicities or oversupplementation problems can rapidly develop (like vitamin A and D or any minerals), i prefer giving human grade stuff by a rule of thumb dosage, simply because i trust the quality more. if in doubt, talk to your vet, it's always the best thing to get a professional opinion.

i agree with black GSD, the natural balance is definitely the best of the 3 as far as ingredient quality goes. as for the formulation, you will really have to see how your dogs do on the food, it's hard to make a recommendation without knowing any details about a specific individual. results from a food change usually become apparent after 4-6 weeks, sometimes it takes longer, sometimes much faster, e.g. allergy problems may clear up pretty quickly after the allergen is eliminated from the diet. my own dog for example does better on a formula with higher fat and protein than most average foods provide, while my friend's dog doesn't do well on fatty foods at all and eats a formula with only 8% fat. there are other factors that aren't as obvious, since most manufacturers don't even publish those details unless you specifically ask for them, such as the carbohydrate content, ratio and amounts of essential fatty acids (omega 3's and 6's), and other things. are you limited to nutro or natural balance in what you can buy? there are many other brands that are of superior quality, and not necessarily more expensive if you do a detailed comparison.

it's a decent food, even made the whole dog journal's list for 2003. have you considered tho that for $5 more per bag you can get the wellness, which is of much better quality? also, i don't know where you live, but dawgfood.com sells the 40 lb bag of canidae for $36 and shipping is free for some states (they operate out of idaho).

i really wonder what happened, because this is one of the highest quality brands of dry food available. :( some news article mentioned that elevated copper levels in the product could have been the problem.