TDG

last i heard, those testing dogs go to a "retirement kennel" somewhere in alabama, but who knows what kind of facility that is, since the media have never been allowed access. procter & gamble is very sucessful in making a bunch of promises when it comes to the animal cruelty they still cause (not just to dogs and cats by the way!) in order to protect their interests and profits, but rarely ever have i seen them actually following up on those promises. whenever you inquire, you will either be ignored or just get some sort of roundabout canned non-statement with no real information in it. which is why i boycott ANY procter & gamble products and also anything that is affiliated with them. if i can help it, nothing P&G can poossibly make a profit from enters my house, no matter [i]how[/i] useful it might be. so for me, no swiffers, no febreze, no dawn, no cascade, no tide, no clairol, no pantene, no tampax, no charmin toilet paper, nothing that appears on [url=http://pandg.com/products/pg_products.jhtml]this list[/url] and then some.

crested, i know it can be challenging in the beginning, but once you have a good overview of the required nutrients, it's rather easy. here are a few key things that come to mind: 1. if you feed meat without bones, regardless if it's raw or cooked, you need to balance the phosphorus content by adding a calcium supplement, otherwise you are opening the door for orthopedic and kidney issues. fortunately this is not hard to accomplish - you can either feed a bone meal supplement, or go the really easy route and use dried, ground up eggshells. (i do not recommend manufactured nutritional calcium supplements, as you risk oversupplementing that way, which is not good for a dog's health.) each whole eggshell makes about a teaspoon of powder, which equals about 1,800 milligrams of calcium. i use 1 eggshell or 1 teaspoon of powder per pound of meat. to process the egg shells, wash them after breaking open the egg, let them dry and then bake in the oven at 300 degrees F/150 degrees C for about 10 minutes. then grind them up in a blender or coffee/spice grinder, or even just a mortar and pestle, depending on what you have available. just make sure you grind them into a fine dust without any sharp little pieces left. whenever i make a full recipe worth of food, i just toss the whole egg, shell and all, into the blender when making the veggie mash. 2. if you cook your dog food ingredients, don't cook them for hours on end. the longer they are cooked and the higher the temperature, the more of the natural nutrients and enzymes are killed and you basically end up with something that is just as processed as commercial foods. toss the meat into some simmering water and just stew it long enough so it's cooked through. any longer and you have a greater loss. for the grains, i also recommend soaking them overnight and then simmer at low temperature for 15-20 minutes. 3. any fruit and veggies you want to feed must be either mashed into a pulp or steamed for a short time to break down the cell walls, otherwise the nutrients are not available to the dog. they don't have the enzymes to accomplish this. fruit can be fed whole if it is overripe and mushy already (e.g. bananas with a dark brown peel). 4. you can mix everything together in a bowl if you want to, or feed doggie porridge with a little fruit and yogurt or cottage cheese for one meal, and meat with veggie mash for another. whichever is convenient for you. personally i try to keep meals as varied as possible just to make it a bit more interesting for my dog. 5. just as with the grains, you need to vary your fruits/veggies, and (most important) your protein sources as well. this is important because different meats contain different levels of aminoacids. eggs, cottage cheese, beef, pork, lamb, chicken, turkey, duck, goose, fish, venison - whatever you can find. in my feeding program, i mostly rely on turkey, chicken, beef, pork and lamb for meat based proteins, because it's what i can get easily. eggs and cottage cheese are easy to get pretty much anywhere even when travelling, so i use them a lot too. if your dog has any allergies to specific meat proteins, you need to keep that in mind of course. 6. as far as vitamins and minerals go, it's not all that difficult. the main thing to keep in mind is that if you feed a diet that is varied enough, you will cover most of the required nutrients naturally. whenever you can, pick organically grown products, since they are not grown on depleted soils (or fed things grown on depleted soils) and not treated with pesticides, antibiotics etc. - for me this is of highest concern when feeding organ meats like liver and kidneys etc., since they filter toxins from the blood. here is my "short list" again that covers a large number of nutrients with a relatively small number of food ingredients: [b]vitamins[/b]: - vitamin C: green leafy vegetables, carrots, berries, tomatoes etc. - B vitamin complex: liver, brewers yeast - biotin: beef liver, brewers yeast, cheese, eggs, chicken breast meat, salmon - choline: egg yolks, beef, wheat germ, oats - inositol: wheat germ, brewers yeast, liver, brown rice, oats, vegetables - vitamin A/beta carotene: cod liver oil, liver, egg yolk, carrots, dark green leafy vegetables, yellow/orange fruits - vitamin D: exposure to sunlight, cod liver oil, fatty fish, liver, egg yolk, dark leafy vegetables - vitamin E: whole grains, wheat germ and wheat germ oil, avocado, beef, seafood, apples, carrots, celery - vitamin K: leafy vegetables, cheese, liver, also produced by the bacteria in the healthy intestinal tract [b]minerals[/b]: - calcium: dairy products (cottage cheese!), blackstrap molasses, fish, ground eggshells - chloride: kelp, tomatoes, celery - magnesium: dairy products, fish, meat and seafood, apples, blackstrap molasses, avocados, bananas, dark leafy vegetables, whole grains - phosphorus: meat, poultry, fish, eggs, bones - most dogs get too much instead of too little, often resulting in kidney damage - potassium: fruit, vegetables,whole grains, blackstrap molasses, fish - sodium: present in many foods, also best avoided in high amounts - sulfur: eggs, garlic, lettuce, cabbage [b]trace elements[/b]: - boron: honey, fresh fruit, green leafy vegetables - chromium: eggs, beef, whole grains, brewer's yeast, blackstrap molasses - cobalt: vegetables - copper: whole grain, liver, blackstrap molasses - iodine: eggs, seafood, kelp and other seaweed - iron: meat, poultry, fish, grains, fruits, vegetables - manganese: avocados, eggs, brown rice, whole grains, leafy greens - molybdenum: spinach, liver, whole grains, dark green leafy vegetables - selenium: whole grains - silicon: oats, alfalfa, leafy green vegetables, whole grains - zinc: muscle meat, poultry, seafood, grains, eggs, seeds, brewer's yeast rules of thumb: * there is no danger of oversupplementing water soluble vitamins, since excess amounts are excreted daily in the urine. drawback: these have to be supplied on a fairly regular daily basis to keep the animal healthy. * the fat soluble vitamins on the other hand (A, D, E, K) build up in the body, which may cause health problems. lucky enough, you only need to watch out for A and K, since there is no toxicity in oversupplementation of vitamin E (the body utilizes it as an antioxidant), and vitamin D is synthesized in the body in sufficient quantities if your dog is regularly exposed to sunlight (3x 15 minutes per week is enough already). go easy on feeding liver and cod liver oil and there's barely a risk of feeding "too much". natural sources of nutrients are preferable, but if you still feel insecure, add a multivitamin supplement to your daily feeding program. kibble will [b]not[/b] cover this! if you want to feed vitamin supplement, stay away from your typical run of the mill "pet supplements" sold at most large pet store chains or department/grocery/drug stores in the pet supplies aisle - they are mostly made from poor quality ingredients and are a waste of money. i don't know about the situation in finland, but in germany and in the US i was mostly just able to find the quality stuff in specialty stores or mail order/internet. supplement brands like solid gold, wellness, wysong and azmira holistic animal care are quality products. if you have any more questions, i'll be happy to help out.

loulou, you are quite welcome. :) [quote name='Loulou']What do you exactly mean by [i]"...to rotate between several good quality brands every few month"?[/i] I mean: how many brands 2, 3 or even more? And feed it for 2 or 3 month or longer?[/quote] yes, that's exactly what i mean. :) pick two or more brands you are comfortable with and feed them for several months, then switch to another. i have a 22 pound (~10 kg) dog and usually don't buy anything bigger than the 7.5-9 kg bags of food. once one is empty, i switch brands. innova is my favorite, with canidae a close second. while there [i]are[/i] commercial foods i turst, i find myself going more and more off commercial food. over the last 3 months or so i progressed from about 2/3 kibble and 1/3 fresh food to 2/3 fresh and 1/3 kibble. i don't want to wean my dog off the kibble completely in case he has to be boarded somewhere for some reason, but overall i prefer fresh foods.

if you want to feed the grain raw, soak it overnight or even longer. dogs can not utilize grains in their natural state, so you have to help them along by either cooking or soaking them. i would also recommend rotating between different grains, since they all contain different levels of nutrients. barley, brown rice, whole wheat berries, quinoa, cornmeal, millet and several others are some alternatives. most fruit and vegetables are fine too, just stay away from onions and grapes, and go easy on cabbage type veggies, because they can cause gas. if you want to feed a homemade diet, you will have to offer as much variety as possible so your dog will get all the nutrients he needs. don't make the mistake of falling into a routine and feeding the same things for an extended time. not every single meal has to be balanced, but you need to achieve a balance over a timespan of a couple weeks. try to get the book "Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats". as posted in another thread recently, i don't necessarily agree with [i]everything[/i] he says, but overall it's a very good book to learn the basics of feeding a homemade diet, regardless if raw or cooked.

i would [b]not[/b] recommend vaccinating for lyme disease, unless it's a very, very high risk in your area (80% of lyme disease cases in the U.S. are found in the nine new england states and wisconsin). why? because there's a risk of your pet developing arthritis as a side effect of the lyme disease vaccine (which is also a symptom of the actual disease itself by the way) and the vaccination does not protect your dog 100% from contracting lyme disease in the first place. over-vaccinating is a serious risk for your dog's health, so make sure you inform yourself before giving your vet the ok to pump all these chemicals into your dog. and please, whatever you decide to use as heartworm prevention, do NOT let the vet give the proheart 6 shot. more info at [url]http://www.proheartinformation.com[/url] .

loulou, if you want to learn about dry dog food products, [url=http://home.comcast.net/~Mordanna/dog/this[/url] is a good place to start. you will find explanations of the items you see on the labels, and what to be wary of. there is no such thing as a "best" dog food, because just like people, different dogs have different requirements. those individual requirements have to be taken into consideration when choosing a food. but even then you could pick a product that sounds really great to you but your dog doesn't like the taste of it, or can't tolerate it. the food you listed sounds like it could be the artemis "natural 6 mix", which is definitely a quality product. as for [i]"Maker does not add preservatives of any kind, but does not disclose preservatives added to fat sources before manufacturing, either."[/i] - this is just how the pet food industry is regulated in the US. it means that a company does not have to list any ingredients that they didn't add to a food ingredient during the manufacturing process (this applies to [b]all[/b] pet food manufacturers btw.). so if something they buy from a supplier already has some additives or preservatives in it, these do not have to be mentioned on the ingredient list. an example: a pet food label tells you the chicken fat it contains has been preserved with mixed tocopherols (that's vitamin E), but the manufacturer could have bought it from a supplier who added for example BHA in order to prevent spoilage. since the BHA was not added by the manufacturer of the pet food, it doesn't have to be declared on the ingredient label. this is why it is so important to ask questions and educate yourself on the topic. those companies who produce quality products will proudly inform you that their ingredients, regardless if they are fats, grains, meat or other things, have been tested, and with what results. i do [b]not[/b] recommend mixing two different commercial food products, since each product is formulated differently. if you mix them, your dog might get too much of some nutrients and not enough of others. if you want to give your dog some variety, it's better to rotate between several good quality brands every few months. of course the best thing to do is to supplement with fresh, "live" foods that don't already have most of their natural nutritional value processed out of them. if you want my personal opinion, the company i trust most is natura pet products (the manufacturer of innova, california natural, healthwise and karma). they provide extensive information about every single ingredient they use, and if you email them, they will even send you a complete analysis of their products.

natural balance is an excellent choice. i'm sure you'll be happy with it. :D

above post was me, i thought i was logged in. :oops: i agree with black GSD, fish oil is an excellent addition. and just by the way, olive oil and fish oil supply completely different nutrients, so they aren't really interchangeable. olive oil/safflower oil/sunflower oil etc. are great if you need to add omega 6 fatty acids, fish oil and flax oil supply omega 3 fatty acids.

so far i have only read good things, but it is not a safe product to use when cats are present, so it's not something i can use in my own household...

you really have tomake up your own opinion about commercial food vs. home cooked or raw. i do agree very much that "hardcore BARFers" are almost like a cult, which completely puts me off as well. however, with all the food research i have done, i have come to the conclusion that feeding commercial food [b]only[/b] (and maybe adding a lot of expensive supplements) isn't something i am comfortable with. i want my dog to get fresh, live foods with natural nutrients that just don't survive the commercial manufacturing process. i'm not a "harcore" this-or-that, but i approach feeding my dog with an open mind and a lot of common sense [b]without[/b] following any of the "cultist bibles". he gets fresh, raw or cooked foods as well as some high quality kibble. i also don't feel comfortable feeding chicken bones, but i do give pork neck bones, beef ribs and other softer beef bones, lamb shanks and turkey necks - all of them raw, because cooked bones are not safe. other things i regularly include in my dog's diet are plain, cultured yogurt; fresh, raw whole eggs; oatmeal and brown rice; all kinds of fresh, mashed vegetables, mostly raw but sometimes also steamed (green beans, squash, parsley, carrots, broccoli, sweet potato, bell pepper, pumpkin, various green leafy vegetables etc.); and all kinds of different fruits (banana, apple, cantaloupe, pineapple, berries etc., but [b]never[/b] grapes or raisins, since they contain a toxin that accumulates in the kidneys and eventually leads to kidney failure). i also feed muscle and organ meats (beef, lamb, chicken, turkey, pork - ground or cut in chunks), but whenever fed without bone, they need to be balanced with a calcium supplement to bind excess phosphorus. bonemeal works well, or ground egg shells. if you ask 100 people what the right way to feed a dog is, you will get 100 different answers. you need to do your own research and come up with a feeding routine that works for your individual dogs. read as many books and articles on the topic as you possibly can and don't believe either extremist side, be it manufacturers of commercial foods telling you that feeding anything but their product is going to kill your dog, nor BARF cultists telling you that feeding anything but raw is going to kill your dog, especially if you include grains in the diet.

just like humans, some dogs are allergic to certain medications. did the vet give a combo shot, or several shots? if i were you, i'd only have one vaccination given at a time, and not all of them on the same day. each one stresses the immune system. especially the rabies shot should not be given in combination with any others. i would also start giving him 500mg of vitamin C daily, in a highly absorbable form (e.g. ester C). it helps the body to rid itself of the toxins contained in the preservatives and carrier medium used for the vaccine. a 1-week course of milk thistle starting on the day of the vaccination is also a good idea. also, read up on what kind of vaccination your dog actually needs. you don't have to give all of them if your dog is not at risk. for example bordetella, lyme, corona, giardia and lepto. also, be careful down the road with annual boosters. many pets will try to tell you that they [b]are[/b] required no matter what, but it's not true. the only exception is rabies, depending on the laws in your state. here in CA, a rabies shot is good for 3 years and i would [b]not[/b] subject my dog to any more than that and he has never had any issues. with a dog like yours, who [b]has[/b] shown a reaction, i'd be even more cautious.

i think 6-7 hours is not a problem at all. even 8-9 hours is still okay in my opinion, if the owner makes an effort to give the dog quality time before and after (long walks, plenty of exercise, mental stimulation). i'm self employed now and work from home, so my dog rarely has to stay home alone, but even if i am around he mostly sleeps during the hours i sit at my desk working. i doubt it would be different if i weren't there - he doesn't really need anyone to watch him sleep. :roll: just think how many people in the world work 8+ hours a day and could not have a dog if that was a problem. as for crate vs. pen vs. run of the house etc. - it depends on the individual dog and your personal situation. i know people whose dogs have the run of the house while they are at work, with a doggie door or without; i know people who crate, people who confine the dog to a laundry room or bathroom and people who keep their dogs in a kennel when nobody is home. whatever works for you and you feel comfortable with.

evolve is definitely the better of the two. salt isn't necessarily a bad ingredient, it just depends on the amount. try to gauge by the other ingredients on the list whether it is a lot or just a small amount further down the list with other minerals. another excellent brand (if you can find it) are neura canned meats. they are 95% meats without byproducts etc. and are made by the same company that makes wellness foods. since they are so high in meat, you can add in your own veggies, potatoes etc. and it's overall less expensive than buying the other canned foods that contain more grains.

horsefeathers, no i am not - luckily i never had to treat a dog for allergies beyond making some changes in the diet. this is by no means to say that changing diet is a "cure all", and i agree that blood and thyroid definitely need to be checked.

i'd go with a quality fish and potato formula (wellness, natural balance, breeders choice etc.). eukanuba has many low quality ingredients (such as "animal fat" and various unnecessary chemical additives) and is preserved with ethoxyquin. that is absolutely scary and very likely to induce worse problems in the long run than just some skin problems. *a definite thumbs down for eukanuba* as far as linatone and the other supplement goes, it's also quite a waste of money. both contain a lot of unnecessary stuff. you'd be way better (and cheaper!) off with a premium olive or safflower oil and a human quality fish oil supplement. if you look at the linatone ingredients, it's primarily soybean oil with a large amount of synthetic additives. and yes, definitely a quality diet, either fish and potato like mentioned above, or another brand that offers a formulation for sensitive skin. california natural or healthwise lamb & oats (made by natura) are worth a try, wellness fish & sweet potato, pinnacle trout & potato, natural balance duck & potato, avoderm specialty or verus advanced opticoat are some products that come to mind that i'd personally consider. they are all high quality diets without harmful/low quality ingredients, but most of them are not available at large chain pet stores, only at independent smaller ones. if you'd like more details, i'd be glad to help out.

if tuna, chicken breast and rice is all he is feeding, then it's not a balanced diet. in fact, i'd say it's grossly deficient in calcium (and other nutrients), which leaves excess phosphorus unbalanced, which in turn puts a heavy strain on the kidneys. kidney diesease is one of the leading causes of death in domestic dogs. i am very much in favor of feeding fresh foods to dogs (as opposed to strictly a commercial diet), but if you want to do that, you have to do your homework and feed a wide variety of things in order to provide proper amounts of all nutrients and to avoid excess. it is not important that every single meal be balanced in itself and you don't have to get an academic degree to figure it out, but over the course of a couple weeks it should all even out. no matter if you go for a home cooked or raw diet, or commercial food though, any of them would be better than purina kibble. it's not a very high quality food. more info [url=http://home.comcast.net/~Mordanna/dog/]here[/url], i hope it helps a little.

horsefeathers, i do see your point and understand perfectly. but i am also capable of giving someone the benefit of the doubt, especially in an area where people don't really care much about animal welfare. i've been in places where "animal control" of an entire county consists of a single person, who has to lock up the shelter facility in order to respond to a call. and i can relate to difficulties living with people who do not put enough importance in the welfare of an animal to help with a situation that is out of hand. heck, i've seen a dog almost getting strangled in the chain of another, having to watch helplessly since the owner had threatened to shoot anyone who tried to set foot on his (unfenced) property even just to give those poor, starved animals some fresh water. [b]you[/b] were the only person who actually stepped forward and offered a helping hand, instead of just berating SRC in the worst possible way and without giving her the courtesy of actually [b]reading[/b] her posts from beginning to end, otherwise the same questions and accusations wouldn't have popped up again, and again, and again. it even went far enough to make her want to stop posting altogether. i might be a newbie on dogomania, but i'm an internet veteran of almost 10 years, active on many different message boards and mailing lists and moderator of a forum community with over 150,000 users. on most of them, outright personal attacks on someone like those that occurred in this thread would have resulted in stern warnings from moderators, if not even the locking of the thread. it is fine to disagreee with someone's opinions, but never okay to stoop down to ad hominem insults. what purpose does it serve to beat someone who is already down? SRC seemed pretty upset and desperate to me, which is the reason she started this thread in the first place. what happened to her aunt's dog it is not her fault and i do not doubt that (as she said herself) if she had found out earlier about the situation, and had been in better shape to do something, she would have. shouldn't we all be willing to give a person the benefit of the doubt more often, rather than being rude and outright attacking them? or do some people need to make themselves feel better by treating someone that way? one thing everyone should take away from this thread is: pay attention to what is happening around you. if your neighbor, or someone further down your street (or even just in the area you frequent a lot) is neglecting their pets, don't just get upset but [b]do[/b] something about it. and if you have money, or items or even just some free time to donate, help out local shelters and rescues. don't just point fingers. this whole thread just upset me so much because some folks seem to be forgetting that people deserve to be treated with respect too - not just dogs.

wow, i must admit that this thread has definitely changed my mind about some people who seem to be "regulars" around here. a lot of finger pointing going on, and i also think a lot of ignorance about how animal control issues are handled in other countries and in states other than the one certain people happen to live in and never seem to have left. instead of berating SRC, folks, be a little more openminded and try to research how things may be different from where you are sitting comfortably in your chair, typing away, attacking someone for things you can't really relate to. especially when someone points out that their mobility is limited due to an accident. do you think in a state where thousands of racing greyhounds are treated like cattle and get killed off once they become "useless" (and this doesn't even have to be performed by a vet), a state that has a shelter euthanasia rate of over 40 animals per 1000 people per year, i don't doubt that it is difficult to get help, and especially not if you live in a very rural area. so many of you are always quick to point out how important it is to treat animals humanely, and how positive approaches are so much more effective than negative ones - why don't you take your advice to heart and see that it applies just as much to your fellow humans? honey instead of vinegar, know what i mean? SRC, if you read this and you still need help, please give me an email address i can pass on to a friend of mine who lives in alabama and might be able to help out, or at the very least maybe put you in contact with someone who can.

thyroid would be the first thing i'd have the dog checked out for. i also agree with dogpaddle that a better food would make a huge difference. pedigree is a popular food, but unfortunately not great quality - unlike the commercials want to make you believe. overall i wouldn't even go for a "light"/"diet" food but just feed a reduced amount of a high quality, normal adult kibble (innova, canidae, wellness, solid gold, natural balance...there are many nice brands, and what you pick largely depends on what's available in your area). if your dog has difficulty dealing with a reduced amount of food, bulk it up with some canned green beans (make sure they don't have any salt added) or coarsely chopped, fresh veggies, either raw or lightly steamed if she won't go for raw ones. the reason i do not like "weight loss" types of food much is that they contain even more carbohydrates than regular foods, mostly in form of starchy grain products that cause relatively strong glycemic responses and cause the dog to feel hungry much sooner than on a diet with less carbs but more protein and a moderate amount of fat.

the only way you can fight puppy mills is to take away the demand they fill on the market. if there is no demand, there is no profit to be made. and don't let yourself be fooled by people like the hunte corporation, probably the largest puppy broker in the US. they can vet and groom and care all they want, the puppies they buy (usually by the litter, "breeders" bring in the litter, hunte employees "grade" them like eggs and then tell the breeder how much he gets for each animal), and then load onto their trucks still come from puppy mill operations. as someone said earlier in this thread, a reputable breeder will [b]never[/b] sell a dog to a pet store, because he'll want to check out prospective buyers to make sure the puppies get the best possible home and don't get dumped at a shelter once the novelty has worn off and people can't be bothered with proper training. each puppy bought from a pet store, no matter for what reason, puts money into the pockets of these creeps. even if a puppy is bought to "rescue" it from its miserable life in a pet store cage. personally i do not buy anything at pet stores anymore that sell puppies and kittens. the place i usually shop at only carries food and supplies for [b]any[/b] kind of pets, but no live animals at all, not even fish. i've gotten dirty looks from several people already when i was looking for harder to find things my regular place doesn't carry but turned around and walked out as soon as i saw cats or dogs for sale. usually i say nothing, but if asked i just politely say that i do not shop at stores that sell puppies and kittens.

well, at least now we know the profit margin vets have from selling euk. :o

personally i wouldn't ever consider feeding [b]any[/b] iams or eukanuba foods to my pets. not only due to poor quality ingredients sold at totally inflated prices, but also because of the questionable business practices of the parent company, procter & gamble. it boggles my mind each time i see that eukanuba is more expensive at pet stores than actual quality products like for example canidae...

you could buy a tracking lead, but they can be quite expensive. sturdy nylon rope, such as the type used by rock climbers only cost pennies per foot and you can have them cut to any length you want. buy a snap hook (often also carried by stores that sell this kind of rope) or take an old one from a leash you no longer use. these nylon ropes knot well, so you don't have to be afraid of anything coming loose.

i would put more weight into ingredient quality than a "breed specific" formula. i very much agree that one particular dog food isn't going to meet the needs of every dog (breed or not), but even dogs of the same breed can have different requirements.

[quote name='drjeffrock']In all fairness Flint River is a great food comparable to Wellness, Innova, and Canidae.[/quote] while FRR is a decent food, it doesn't come close to innova and canidae. of course this is just my personal opinion, but in my eyes the drawbacks of FRR are: - whole wheat [b]flour[/b] as first grain ingredient. whole grains are nutritionally much more valuable. i'm not going to go into the debate of wheat or corn vs. other grains at this point. - poultry fat. a generic source of fat instead of something that is specifically named. i am wary of any dog food product where ingredients are not fully disclosed. - synthetic vitamin E instead of a natural vitamin is used. the synthetic version is only about half as effective. - most minerals are in form of oxides and sulfates, which are not absorbed as well from a dog's short digestive tract as chelated minerals. the makers of innova and canidae both guarantee that the meats they use are hormone and antibiotic free, which is always a plus. natura (maker of innova) even tests their ingredients for ethoxyquin, BHA, BHT and pesticides, because by law the dog food manufacturer only has to list what they [b]add[/b] to their foods, but not what has already been added by a supplier. so a company selling you a dog food containing chicken fat may list on the label that it's preserved with tocopherols (vitamin E), but the supplier they bought it from might have stabilized it with BHA or other chemicals before selling it. ethoxyquin is a big issue in fish meal, yet as long as the dog food company doesn't add any, you won't see it mentioned on the label. i'm a huge fan of all natura products, [b]especially[/b] due to their rigorous testing. wellness guarantees hormone free lamb at least, i don't know how far their other guarantees go.