JudyHoffman

My Kennel name is Sourire Belgian Sheepdogs. I chose it because Sourire (said "soo-rear") means "smiling" in French and to me, the Belgian Sheepdogs are always smiling when they are working and doing something they enjoy or just being with their people. My pups registered names are: Sourires Maya of Hillside Sourires Belle of Hillside Sourires DJ of Hillside Sourires Payton of Hillside Sourires Emmika of Hillside Sourires Mozer of Hillside Sourires Rayn of Hillside Sourires Charley of Hillside The Sourires is my kennel name, Maya, Belle, DJ and Payton etc. are the dogs call name and Hillside is the Stud Dogs Kennel.

[quote]unfortunately the average "joe" does not purchase a pup from them, they buy from BYB's.[/quote] and because of this very simple fact, there will always be dogs that maul/attack children and adults. We can place blame on the dog, the kid, the kids parents or the dog owners, but realistically most people buy a dog having no clue what to do with it or how to do it or want to spend the time or money doing it. The "IT" I am referring to is quite basic, training and socializing. Let's face it, most of us won't have Champion Dogs in most venues, but I do expect to have a well mannered, well behaved dog that I am happy to take along with me wherever I go and with each new dog comes new learning for me. There is nothing that a dog can't teach me ...... It's really a sad state of things when it all comes down to this, don't you think? :(

atgylin ..... From what you describe I do not think your husband was reading Felix correctly. A dog that backs into a corner and shows aggression is showing fear aggression I believe. If he was "warning" your child he would have stood his ground and not backed away. Fear aggression (and I use the term aggression loosely as I'm not so sure this is a case of aggression) is not a good thing. What I would have done in that case is I would have asked my child to sit on the floor with a treat (I would be holding a treat also) and kindly and compassionately and with a happy voice and face call the dog to come coaxing him with a treat. By removing your child from him, you have in fact reinforced and told him that when he behaves that way, he gets what he wants, which was the removal of your child from his space. Felix needs to learn that your child is "higher" in the pack than Felix is ...... by punishing your child and giving Felix what he wants, you are teaching Felix that he is more important than the child. This is never the case in human - canine interaction, irregardless of the age of the human. You need to work on his "space" issue (all puppies have this).

These are my opinions about several issues that were bought up. As a responsible dog breeder, at least I try to be, I tell all of my buyers that they must touch the dogs mouth and look at the teeth at least 3 times a day. They should remove bones, food and toys from the dogs mouth all the time, giving high praise/treats for the dog allowing this. If not, corrections should be given thru positive methods. This is not rocket science folks ..... this is part of owning and training a dog. These things come first before sitting/staying/coming etc. They dog needs to be agreeable to human interference whether it be eating or chewing a bone. Reading dog behavior ........ this is a hard one. Ears and tail say a lot. But if you have a dog that is without a tail then you need to learn it's other signals. I notice a lot by the eyes, when my dogs are upset or something is "wrong" they're eyes get very sharp and bright. Body posture is always a tell tale sign of what is about happen. My general rule of thumb is if the dog is already in the throes of barking/growling/showing teeth it is too late to do much, except remove the dog from the offending situation. Dogs give many signals thru their body posture ...... normally at least 2 - 5 minutes before any altercation. Reading dog behavior and removing items from the dogs mouth is part of training and being a responsible owner. It also assesses any behaviorial issues at a very young age. If you can't read your dog's language and if you don't teach it bite inhibition then you will always be on alert when someone is around your dog or you are walking your dog. I do not believe that children or adults should remove food from a dog while it is eating. But if the situation arises, it should be able to be done without a problem irregardless of who does it. Being alert and nervous holding a leash will only travel down the leash to the dog.

You can call me Judy ........ Reading a dog is difficult even for those of us who know how to read our dogs language. It's a lesson learned for both the child and the parents and hopefully the owners of the dog. Too bad its such a hard lesson and a lifetime of scars will be left on that child, physically and mentally.

Absolutely! Dogs and common sense should go hand in hand! Well said.

Dog Lover, Haven't you ever seen a dog attack something or somebody with no audible growl? Sometimes it's so low and so deep only another dog can hear it. I always watch the body language ........ my dog, when provoked will, I know attack something so quickly and so fast and never make a sound. After she had her puppies, no other dog would go within 10 feet of her, she was so protective of her puppies and I would be sitting right there, right by her aside the whelping box and could hear no growling, but if I put my hand on her chest I could feel it. A dog can in fact growl so low that only another dog can hear it. Unfortunately that doesn't help us humans who don't have hearing as keen as a canine. :-?

I guess K, and I'm not disagreeing with you either, human well-being comes before an animal. Hey, I've seen kids abuse dogs ...... I have 3 neighbor kids that are like that ..... If I am ever unsure of my kids friends with animals, the animals get put away for their "safety" .... they look to me to keep them safe. Obviously I can't tell my daughter not to have her friends over, but I can put my dogs away where they are safe from children that are afraid of dogs. For me it works ..... everyone is happy, the kids, the friends and the dogs. So saying that, it is the dog owners responsibility to know their dog and know if the dog is "stable" or "unstable" with someone around it's food or with someone petting it. That dog bit a child ......... it's the dog owners fault. The child's parents should also teach their child respect of animals, but let me tell you, there is no way in hell a 2 year old will understand that concept unless it's been around animals from the day it's bought home, like mine have. Here's a picture of kids and 3 of my pups. [img]http://a2.cpimg.com/image/8A/78/24327562-6502-0200016A-.jpg[/img] The point to this picture is that kids are with my dogs/puppies all the time. Belgians are not easy dogs and are aloof at best. Do these puppies look aloof? To me they look comfortable and relaxed .... they have been highly socialized to children ..... even as young as 2 - 3 years old and they know to go to their crates if the children are "harrassing them" as do the older dogs. No dog is my house is ever ever disturbed while in their crates. If a kid disturbs a dog in the crate, the kid is punished or asked to leave my house. Fortunately, all the kids that come thru my house know the rules ahead of time. Kids are with my dogs/puppies from day one ...... they are asked by me to pull the tail, pinch the toes and tug on ears under my supervision. I ask the kids to take food out of their mouths etc. I try to nip most problems in the bud so to speak. Sadly, most parents don't feel that it is necessary to teach children how to behave around animals ....... which is why most dog bites happen in the first place.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, but my opinion is the fault lies with the dog owner, not the child and not the child's parents. I currently have 9 dogs in my house and my 3 year old can take any food bowl away, pet any dogs while eating and remove any bone from their mouths. I certainly don't encourage it, but my dogs are all taught that a human can in fact remove food, bones, toys or anything from their mouths and it's ok. I've yet to have any sort of aggression issues with the canine/human interaction with my kids. Dogs of all breeds need to understand that it's OK for humans to do whatever they want to them while eating. If your dog has an issue, it should eat in the crate or be kept safe from humans or toddlers while eating/chewing a bone.

[img]http://a2.cpimg.com/image/2E/75/23787822-1f12-028001E0-.jpg[/img] [img]http://a2.cpimg.com/image/74/77/23787892-d065-028001E0-.jpg[/img]

my favorite breed? Belgians ......... [img]http://a5.cpimg.com/image/37/6D/23787575-8141-028001E0-.jpg[/img]

Many herding breeds are like that also, including the Belgian Shepherd. They have a very loyal very protective instinct and were originally bred to be guard dogs.

Sounds like Coal needs the NILF program. This establishes a firm leadership role with only positive methods. Hand feeding all his meals is also good. NILF is Nothing In Life is Free. He gets nothing unless he does something for it. No pets, no sleeping on the bed, no food no nothing unless he sits or does what you ask him to do. He will learn that quickly and it teaches manners. It sounds as if Coal has no manners whatsoever and takes advantage of you. As far as crating goes, you need to crate him, bedside is good if he is more comfortable there and keep him there. But you already know that ... after all you did crate train Hazel.

Thanks .......... we're still tweaking it!

:P I am proud to announce the unveiling of Sourire Belgian Sheepdogs new website .......... take a peek and let me know what you think. [url]http://www.ambercreek.net/sourire-belgians[/url]

Here is my website and yes, I am a breeder also. [url]http://www.ambercreek.net/sourire-belgians [/url]

I also just recently had a litter of pups, altho not Bernese Mtn Dogs. I sold 6 of them before she was even bred. It is the only way to go and do it. Good Luck ........ it's hard to sell them after the fact. Are they AKC Registered and all health clearances done?

[quote]Temperament The Belgian Sheepdog should reflect the qualities of intelligence, courage, alertness and devotion to master. To his inherent aptitude as a guardian of flocks should be added protectiveness of the person and property of his master. He should be watchful, attentive, and always in motion when not under command. In his relationship with humans, he should be observant and vigilant with strangers, but not apprehensive. He should not show fear or shyness. He should not show viciousness by unwarranted or unprovoked attack. With those he knows well, he is most affectionate and friendly, zealous of their attention, and very possessive. Viciousness is a disqualification. [/quote] The above is the AKC Standard for the Belgian Temperment.

Believe me Rowie, I talk to Belgian folks all the time :D . I've posted pictures of Kira's puppies under the thread "the cutest puppy in the world". There are many many more knowledgeable people about Belgian than I, and for every unique Belgian there is a unique owner/handler who has a different take on them. But basically, what I forgot to mention, they still are sheep herders ....... I take herding lessons once a week with both of my dog ..... they love it and so do I! You will see many Belgians of all varieties at the Herding Trials around the US ........ they are fun to watch ...... and they are quite impressive with their thinking ability. Belgians also need a job to do everyday ...... they need brain work. They are highly intelligent and if training them gets boring to them, they will change the rules of the training session and if you aren't quick enough to follow along, they will leave you in their dust! :D

[img]http://a1.cpimg.com/image/1B/CF/21703451-5750-028001E0-.jpg[/img] [img]http://a2.cpimg.com/image/1C/CF/21703452-3793-028001E0-.jpg[/img] [img]http://a3.cpimg.com/image/1D/CF/21703453-e6be-028001E0-.jpg[/img] [img]http://a4.cpimg.com/image/1E/CF/21703454-533d-028001E0-.jpg[/img] [img]http://a5.cpimg.com/image/1F/CF/21703455-7473-028001E0-.jpg[/img]

Hmmm, how to answer this in a nutshell. The belgian sheepdog is aloof with strangers. It is supposed to be that way because it was bred as a guardian dog. They are in no way like a Golden Retriever or Lab. They should certainly welcome strangers, but don't expect happy faces, licks and tail wags. They tolerate it and should always accept it when trained and socialize properly. For this very reason Belgians are difficult to show in the show ring ....... after all they have to be touched by a "stranger", ie; the judge. They should never under any circumstances be vicious, growly or barky. Their demeanor can certainly come off as skittish or nervous, but it isn't. I've seen many Belgians of all varieties do from Schutzhund to Therapy work. Breeding lines are very important to get what you want. If you want high drive high energy dogs, you will breed like to like. Pedigree study and research is most important. My Belgians are very typical. They are aloof with strangers and won't happily walk up to one for a pet, but if I ask them to they will. This is typical of the breed. You should read the akc standard ....... it really does explain them well. My female is quite zippy and firey. I would consider her a harder Belgian to handle, altho she excels in agility and loves children, her first and foremost concern in life is ME! I bred her to a male who has a much overall stable temperament, but she is certainly within the breed standard for temperament. No I don't think one "flavor" is more affectionate than the others ...... if you speak to owners of the others they will all say that their Belgians often lay at their feet, follow them around like a shadow and sleep with them. All of them are extremely nice ...... some more biddable than others, but very nice just the same. I am, of course partial to the Black Coated Variety. :D

and I recently had a litter with Champion Folklor's Dillon of Hillside to my female Donatrix Quarelle of Finland. 5 boys and 3 females ........ All black and all perfect.

Yes, there are actually 4 "flavors" of the Belgian Shepherd. The US or AKC is the only country that separates them into the Sheepdog, Tervuren, Malinois and the Laekenois. The Belgian Laekenois is not recognized by the AKC, but they are recognized in Europe and Canada. The Belgian Shepherd is a herding dog. You can look up the breed standard for the AKC at [url]www.akc.org[/url]. The standard for all 4 varieties is and should be the same. The only difference is drive and coat type. Most if not all Belgians excel at everything from obedience to messenger dogs. Many are Search and Rescue Dogs and many Malinois are K9 and Military dogs. If you can be more specific, I can perhaps try to answer your other questions. Judy Sourire Belgian Sheepdogs (the Black Variety) New Jersey