JudyHoffman

It's the mother that determines the size of the litter, not the sire. So it was Coles mother who threw the 13 pups, not his father :wink: ! Chocolate in labs in a recessive color. Black & Yellow mix litters is not uncommon. It can take years to get chocolate labs, even breeding two chocolates together. Another thing you should learn, GENETICS. Now that's a lot of fun.

It doesn't make sense to show the dog to it's championship if you do not plan on breeding or using him for stud. Why go thru the time and expense of showing then? The entry fees? Also, where is your dog registered? Is it from a breeder? I'm just curious as where you live in the USA is major puppy mill country, altho they call themselves "The Mid-West Breeders Association" or something like that. Not to say you are, but you will need to be very very careful where these pups go to. I got tons of call from so called breeders in the mid-west who wanted a pup from my recent litter ...... after doing checks (and people doing checks for me) I found out they were puppy mills. You need to be very very careful.

No, Kendalyn, you are right. The stud dog owner usually gets a stud fee anywhere from $500 - $1500 depending on stud dog (titles, championships etc). Some may take a "pick" puppy in lieu of the $$$ Yes, the bitches owner gets to take care of all those puppies :( The point I was trying to make was simply that having the bitch is ton's of work with a litter, health clearances, trips to the vets etc. It is not so easy to have a nice stud and to have "bitch" owners falling all over you to breed to your stud. From what I've seen, the stud owners have a much harder time finding a female to stud their dogs too. I got the feeling that SweetRuiN wants to get a female and breed the two dogs. This is certainly possible, but then you are looking at showing and finishing an already 1 year old male, training, showing and finishing a puppy and waiting until it is old enough to breed, staying on top of health clearances etc. There are a lot of "ifs" involved. Nothing is guaranteed. In my mind, unless I am reading this wrong, SweetRuiN would be looking at not having a litter for at least 3 - 4 years down the road, unless she found a female from a reputable breeder who would be willing to sell her an older female that could be bred, which is doubtful. Most reputable breeders will keep their own breeding stock females. Of course SweetRuiN can just get a female, breed the two and have puppies and sell them too without ever having to worry about any of this, but then she wouldn't be considered a responsible breeder. It's a risk. Lab's are not the healthiest of breeds on the planet right now ...... they have been so overbred that the "gene pool" is saturated with the same dogs over and over which is leading to a lot of health issues in the breed. Does this make sense?

There are many many things that you need to consider. Probably too numerous to name here. 1.) What qualities does your dog have that will enrich/better your breed of choice? 2.) What can good characteristics can your dog add to the gene pool? 3.) What do you know about your dogs lineage/pedigree at least 5 generations back? 4.) Are there any working titles? 5.) Are there any conformation (show) titles? 6.) Are there any AKC champions or bitches with ROM (Registry of Merit) in their litters? 7.) What are the accomplishments of the parents? Littermates? Aunts, Uncles, Cousins? 8.) What are the health clearances of the parents? Any epilepsy? Seizuring conditions? Hip Dysplasia? Elbow Dysplasia? Hereditary eye diseases? 9.) At two years of age the dog must be cleared for Hip Dysplasia ..... this is done thru an X ray from the vet (costing between $200 and $300) with the slides sent to the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) to read. A reading by Good to Excellent must be received in order to even consider breeding the dog. 10.) Is there any bitch owner who would be interested in using your dog as stud? 11.) Would anyone be interested in buying your puppies? 12.) Would you be willing to keep the puppies if you could not sell them? 13.) Would you be willing to take your puppies back if they were ill and care for them for their lifetimes? 14.) Your dogs breeder should be involved and be your mentor. Perhaps they don't want the dog shown or bred. 15.) Where did you get the dog from? A reputable breeder or a pet store or a puppy mill? 16.) You say the dog is registered, with what club? The AKC, The UKC, The CKC or other? Showing: You need to go to first Basic Obedience Class. You need to go to a Handlers Class (Usually given by people who show dogs). Your dog has to stand still for a thorough examination by a judge without moving or minimal moving, including a thorough mouth exam and examination of his testicles. The dog has to learn to single track, the handler (you) needs to show the dog to it's best ..... learning to gait, learning to get the dog to put it's ears up and pay attention with major major distractions. One year is NOT old. No dog should be bred without it's Championship in the show ring or other performance venue. It's not all fun ...... breeding dogs takes time and work, lots of it! I can guarantee you, you will not make any money ...... you will lose money ..... guaranteed!

Getting mad at a drunk serves no purpose! He probably forgot what he did/said within 5 minutes of saying it! He's a sick man with a disease called alcoholism. Pity him, don't be mad at his rantings. Even manic-depressives, people with ADD and other mental illnesses can and do act the same. Your dogs reaction to him to does not surprise me in the least. Most dogs do not like the body movements/posture of drunks or mental disturbed people. I wouldn't be concerned. If it happens again, just say "Let's go" and continue on your walk with a happy bounce in your step and lightness to your voice.

Hi Het-Hert. My first question I have to ask (since I need a few more details) is has his dog been to obedience classes? My second question is has the dog been socialized with kids? Both are important to having a well rounded well mannered dog. Since I cannot see what is happening I'm going to take a stab at this. When the dog see children what do you do? I will guess and say that you encourage the dog to say "hello" and ask the kids to pet him? Stop doing that. If you go somewhere there are kids watch your dog, watch him for signs of being uncomfortable. Keep him (and yourself) at a distance where he is comfortable with kids. If he can give you a comfortable sit or a comfortable down with kids at a safe distance then highly praise and treat him for being so good. Gradually, over the span of a few weeks lessen the distance between himself and kids. Always treating and always praising when he is relaxed. Perky ears and a relaxed tail are signs of a relaxed dog. If his ears are plastered to his head and his tail is tucked way up under him, he is not relaxed. You will not be able to force him to accept kids, it is something he has to learn thru positive training. This really sounds like a socialization issue more than a behavior temperment issue. If you get uptight and nervous when kids are around, your feelings are travelling down the leash to him and he feels the same way you do. Be relaxed and happy. In order for a dog to be a Therapy Dog, it is my recommendation that they pass Obedience Classes, the CGC (Canine Good Citizen Test) and then the Therapy Dog Test. If kids walk up to you and ask if they can pet him, for the time being say no, he is in training. As far as your neighbors child, that might be a good idea and a good place to start. If you, the dog and the child could be in the yard (fenced in, with the dog off leash) and the child could just play and ignore the dog and let the dog watch and after a little while have the girl try to give the dog a treat. If he won't take it from her hand, ask her to toss it to the dog and if he takes it, tell him he is a good boy with lots of praise. If he takes the treat, fine. If not, try again another day. Also, do not let this dog hide behind your legs (just an afterthought). He should always be in front of you in a relaxed way. When he see's kids and backs up and tries to slip out of his collar in a happy voice say "silly boy, let's go" and coax him with a treat or a favorite toy. Try to keep his attention on your face (smiling and talking in a happy non-chalant voice) Start slowly and build his confidence. It sounds as if he needs confidence learning classes which is nothing to be ashamed of, there are more puppies that need that than you can imagine.

I agree Kendalyn, this behavior coming from this dog is unacceptable from any breed or mix of dog. This is truly a case of bad handling/ownership, unless of course the dog is extremely ill and in pain. There have been so many discussions/arguments here about dogs biting kids and most people think the kid and the kids parents should be fined/reprimanded. In this case, if this little dog mauls those children (and it can happen, he is already building up to that point) who is to blame?

WOW, you have a serious problem! Where is your dog from? A breeder? If so, you should call the breeder and let them know what is happening? Is she from a pet store? If so, sorry to say you have a product of bad breeding most likely. Most important, get this dog to a vet now and have a complete health check done. Blood work, CBC and thyroid panel. Perhaps she is in pain? I want to go on and on about how you let her behavior get away from you. She is an aggressive dog with teeth ....... irregardless of how tiny she is. She has little or no training and you don't sound like you do anything to correct the problem. You didn't finish her medication to get her well. Have you ever dealt with her separation anxiety as a pup or young adult? Have you called a trainer? A canine behaviorist? You also put human emotions on a dog! Dogs do not think like humans, they cannot look in a mirror and see themselves as little dogs, that is silly. I hope you realize that someday that dog is going to do some serious damage to one of your children, perhaps losing an eye, a piece of a lip or seriously scarred in the face for life. You say you don't know why she is doing this ..... what have you done to try figure it out or are you too busy "crying" over it. If you don't do something NOW, this dog will and should be put down, and even if you do something, it may be too late without professional help. Sorry to be so harsh, but as a breeder and a trainer these sort of posts just irritate the $&6@ out of me. [url]www.ambercreek.net/sourire-belgians[/url][/i]

I thought I was being pretty fair, considering what I am asking for in return from the owners. Believe me, I don't hound these folks once a day ...... every now and then I'll send them an email and ask how they are doing and how the pups are doing. They know I am available to them at any time day or night! I'll probably check on big days, like 6 month Birthdays, 1 year birthdays and the like. Believe me, the dogs they bought from me are theirs in every way shape and form :D .

Sorry I did not get back yesterday, I was quite busy with Christmas and the approaching holidays :( I speak to potential puppy buyers several times before I agree to sell them a puppy. I speak a lot about the tests I would like done and I encourage them to speak to their vet about them and do research about the tests and why they are done blah, blah, blah. I also tell them that I [b]cannot force[/b] them to do the tests but as potential members of my extended family I would like the pups to be tested. Since this is my first litter, I have no way of knowing if people will or will not do the tests, but I certainly hope so. I believe that 6 of the 7 puppies I sold will have the tests done within the specified time frame. What I do with my sold puppies is when the puppies are spayed, I refund $50.00 of the cost of the spay/neuter with proof of the procedure. For the tests to be done, I will refund $100.00 for the hips and $30 for the eye CERF with proof that it has been done. There is nothing more I can do monetarily. I also reimburse the cost of obedience class with proof of completion and certificate and if those owners go on to get their CGC, I reimburse another $50.00. I will also reimburse the cost of agility classes/tracking classes/ herding lessons etc up to the point that the owners get their full payment price back. This is all incentive for people to work with their dogs, to enjoy their dogs and bond with their dogs and develop a trust/friendship with their dog. You see, I make no money, even tho I am asking for people to do a lot with their puppy as far as training and health clearances, they also get more than 1/2 of what they originally paid for the pup in the first place. Aggressiveness/Temperment issues have to be verified by a 2 Certified Canine Behaviorists and my vet. This includes testing for any missed health issues. No money is refunded unless everyone agrees, including myself. The buyers are all aware of this. For Health issues, such as cancer, thyroid problems and any number of problems, the buyers must return the dog to me (if that is what they want to do because of the burden of caring for an ill dog) without any refund. This also must be verified and validated by their vet and my own. (My vet examination is at my cost, not the owners). The dog will then be in my care for the rest of it's life unless of course I can re-home the dog with someone who has full knowledge of the dogs health issues. All puppies leave my house to go to their forever homes with a new flat collar, a new bowl, a new leash, a 10 lb bag of premium dog food, raw bones, 2 toys and a 2 lb bag of treats and water from home. All pupppies with a puppy packet explaining about the Belgian breed and anesthesia, training techniques, crate training, pedigree papers, phone #'s, health certificates of both sire, dam and puppy and lots of other good reading material. I try to find them a good positive trainer in their area and supply them with a phone # and email address. I will also contact that trainer. Basically new owners just have to put the dog in the car, load their stuff and off they go. I ask them all to just stay home and bond with their dog for 2 weeks, not to overstimulate the dog and build a bond of trust. So far I've been lucky. I want my buyers happy and my puppies happy. I owe it to them, to their dam, to their sire & owners and to myself. I need to be able to live with myself knowing that my puppies are well taken care of to the best of my ability.

My health guarantee is 36 months, which is longer than most contracts and actually I would guarantee health even longer. Do I bear any of the responsibility in what way? Do you mean do I replace the dog? Do I take the dog back and refund the cost of the dog? I'm not sure how you are referring to responsibility. But for clarification, I only refund money in the case of aggressiveness or temperment faults and then only if it is verified by two certified behaviorists and a veterinarian. I also have the puppies eyes CERF'd at 10 weeks old to see if there are any genetic faults at a young age. They go thru range of motion tests at 6 weeks, 8 weeks and again at 10 weeks old to get an idea if there are any joint problems or potential joint problems. As a breeder that is really all I can do to make sure I am selling a healthy puppy to someone.

[quote]I had one person have her dog wrap his legs around my leg and pee on my ankle and I wasn't allowed to pull him off! How are these people allowed to have pets! It just amazes me.[/quote] How? Because, the person who placed this dog did not care how the dog was taught or if it was taught manners at all. It happens all the time unfortunately. The dog maybe was not followed up on ...... Just to start another discussion, I ask all of my buyers to have the dogs hips & elbows xrayed at 2 - 2 1/2 years of age and to have their eyes CERF'd also and submit the evaluations to the OFA and CERF. Yes, I even ask this if the dog is spayed or neutered. My reason? This is MY breeding program ........ I want to know if I have created any unknown health issues. I MAY want to breed these two animals again once their offspring are evaluated for the usual hips/elbows and eye problems. I may want to use a similar pedigree to continue the my breeding program with a particular line of Belgians. I tell all of the potential buyers that these tests are costly ...... Hips/Elbows can run over $325.00 (including OFA costs), CERF can run up to $80.00 then the cost to register the test. I think the poster who said something like it's my dog and they have no say in what happens is mistaken, from a breeders point of view. They have a lot at stake and if a puppy from a breeder develops problems they will be the first ones to be flamed as lousy breeders and how much they have hurt the breed. It's a double edged sword and I prefer to take the heat from potential puppy buyers than the AKC, my Breed Club and my other Breeder friends and mentors.

I hope the next time I breed I'm not so anal retentive :wink:

What can I say? It's a gut feeling. A quick story, I sold a puppy to a couple. This would have been their 4th Belgian. I knew they didn't have a fence, I knew they could do obedience etc. I let it go and sold the pup. They took the puppy home at 8 weeks, they totally stressed this dog for 2 days, they shoved him in a crate, the shoved his nose in accidents, changed his diet, bought him to a nursing home to visit old folks, traipsed him all over town and by day 3 they returned him to me for being "aggressive" and showing "no bite inhibition". The poor fella was totally stressed. Now I had the problem of assessing his behavior to make sure that in fact he was not aggressive. They totally screwed up this little puppy who was outgoing and friendly when he left. It took me 3 months to somewhat fix his issues. Never ever again will I for go my rules of owning one of my puppies. I am thankful that this pup was returned to me so quickly, but can you imagine if they had waited 6 months and then returned him to me? This was a lesson well learned and I am happy to report that this pup is now placed in a home in Canada, with a Belgian Tervuren sister and is doing quite well. The new owners are going to take him to obedience classes and possibly start him in agility. They were also aware of his issues and are continuing the work I painstakingly started to help him overcome his very bad experience.

Horsefeathers, I'm sorry you had such an awful experience with the Delta Society training. I went thru several courses with the Delta Society and I had never seen where they actually ran training classes. I know they conducted the CGC and Therapy dog tests, but not actual classes. If that were me, I would not have even finished the class for the evening, let alone a several week class if any trainer treated my dog that way. I'm sorry you had to go thru that. Once I agree to sell a dog to someone, I personally find them a class in their area. I have contacts in many parts of the country who can recommend classes and often times I know breeders that run classes themselves. I go out of my way to find obedience classes and of course just going to classes will not train the dog. It is something that needs to be worked on for the life of the dog every single day. You say it well Horsefeathers, it all comes down to "assurances". This is what I owe my puppies and my bitch ....... to give them great homes and prevent them to winding up in a shelter without my knowledge.

[quote]Mainly I think my problem with obedience class is that I know enough about training to do it myself. I know my dog better than the trainers who are also trying to work with at least 3 or 4 other people at the same time. Unless I had a dog that I could not train on my own I probably would never go to another obedience class again. I enjoy doing it myself.[/quote] I have owned and trained dogs for 15 years now. Just recently started breeding. With every new dog comes a new set of problems and I still go to obedience school with each new dog. I "think" I also know how to train a dog, but I find it is not true. Even the best dog owners and dog trainers will go to other "trainers" for help/training. Puppy Kindergarten helps dogs socialize with other humans/dogs. Puppy handling gets them used to being handled approached by strangers. Puppy manners teaches them not to jump,nip, lick etc. No one knows everything, even if you've been in the breed for a gazillion years. Each dog is different and it's interaction with people / dogs is different. To each his own and this is not a criticism, but if you wanted to buy a dog from my (as a breeder) and told me all of this stuff, I would not sell you a dog. There are too many warning flags about you that would make me uneasy about selling you a dog. This is not to say that you are not an excellent person or dog owner, but from a breeders point of view I would turn you away.

Since I consider myself a breeder of Belgian Sheepdogs I will answer your question. No, I would not consider you a good home for one of my puppies. Obedience School is a must and as a breeder I ask for proof that an owner went to obedience school. I am not "anal" about diet, but I do ask that a premium (more expensive) kibble be fed to the dog for their overall health. I do home checks of all of my "potential" homes. If there is not some sort of confinement system or a fenced yard, I will not sell a dog to that person. I have lost far too many dogs due to poor fencing and lack of fencing is just an accident waiting to happen. I check vet references and other personal references and if possible meet those people also. You have to remember, if you go to a breeder you are wanting their expertise with their breed of choice. No one knows the breed better than the breeder. The breeder knows what is best for their particular breed. Not jumping and manners will be taught in obedience class. When I still had 4 pups at 9 weeks of age, I paid and enrolled all 4 puppies in obedience class/puppy kindergarten/ puppy manners class, at an astronomical cost to me. I expect my owners to do the same with just one dog. Not going to obedience class, not giving the dog an outlet to use their brains, not establishing strong leadership thru training only causes problems down the road.

I do agree that playing tug is a great game! I play tug with all of my dogs who like it .... Kira will only play tug at agility practice or trials and that is fine. At home, she just prefers not too. I would not play tug unless you can get a reliable release of the toy and I thought Naomi had mentioned that Cody showed at one time "protective/aggressive" tendencies. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. Therapy work would have no bearing on teaching tug of course, unless any dog gets aggressive with tug games as some do. I personally think that dogs should have zero aggressive/possessive/protective tendencies to do Therapy work. 100% biddabity is best for a Therapy dog IMHO. Just my opinion tho .... I am a big believer in training using what the dog already knows & likes (it helps to build a closer bond)...... then you can move on to teaching new things, which is why I suggested teaching fetch away from the Christmas Tree, since he seems to enjoy fetching more than tugging.

I wouldn't teach him to play tug if he doesn't like it. He sounds as if he is being respectful of yourself and your husband. Since he seems to love "fetch" I would teach him to play fetch away from the Christmas Tree. If I remember correctly, you want Cody to be a Therapy Service Dog? I would not teach him tug unless you can get him to release on command or with a hand signal. Tug is a wonderful stress reliever, but if you already have a dog that shows some aggressive/protective/possessive tendencies I would not teach it unless you can reliably 100% of the time control it. Stick with fetch ...... it seems to be what he prefers.

Yes, I see what you mean! :lol: You mean the grinch isn't real??? :icon_rock:

Why would that upset you? That is phenomenal training and desensitizing and for any dog to be able to deal with that and act at the same time gets my applaud for the day! My hats off to the trainers of these dogs. Hey, these 6 dogs are no different than dogs in a circus act. If we could only get our own dogs to be as tolerant with such good temperments.

[quote]"I think this just goes to the basic unpredictability of certain breeds of dogs," he said. "The dog was frenzied. The whole thing lasted about 45 seconds.'' [/quote] What a horrible story. The only words I'd change to the above quote is instead of "certain breeds of dogs" would be "dogs". Any dog that is that frenzied can wreak havoc ....... didn't have to be a pitbull or any of the bully dogs.

Perhaps I try not to stress over it and let nature take it's course. I did the same with my kids and my own pregnancies. I also know that breeding bully breeds, giant breeds and mini toy breeds is much more dangerous. But BSD's are easy whelpers and good mothers traditionally. Don't get me wrong, each litter is nerve wracking but it gets easier each time I do it. I always had the attitude that my body was made and built to have children and that if I took care of it, it would take care of my children. I wasn't wrong. I just made sure Kira was healthy, the sires were healthy, good food, lots of exercise and fun and training. Kira actually got all of her qualifying runs and titles in Agility while she was pregnant and carrying her babies. I guess she must've felt good and more bonded to me ! :wink: I only let her relax and hang out the last 8 - 10 days of her pregnancy. The rest of the time, it was business as usual. :)

So far I have lost none. All are thriving and healthy. Never even had any close calls. Never even had a close call with the dam. Here in the US it is different with the breeders I consider my mentors. Most will stay home for one week and then the dam and pups are left alone for a time. I can't speak for everyone, but I suppose I am lucky.

I did say that this would not work with all breeds or all dogs didn't I? You are correct of course, but I would have no qualms doing the same thing again with this same bitch. There are very few breeders that I know will stay with their litters 24/7 for the first 2 weeks. They will have the bitch and litter in a secure room where the bitch has access to food, water and the puppies. Puppy whelping for "most" breeds do not require human intervention. The whole experience is much nicer when you can sit and watch in amazement at the how well your bitch instinctively knows what to do.