JudyHoffman

After the first 5 days it was unnecessary for me to be there all the time, as in 24/7. Belgian sheepdogs are quite good mothers with quite a bit of common sense. The pups were fine being left 10 hours a day after the first week. This is just with my breed and knowing my dog. I would not necessarily do this with any breed or any dog, but I was more than comfortable with these arrangements. Each dog is different, each litter is different. I suppose if I ever breed another litter things might be different. Here is a picture of one of my puppies in his new home. He is 17 weeks old in these pics. [img]http://a9.cpimg.com/image/F1/94/26201329-6d7b-02000180-.jpg[/img] [img]http://a3.cpimg.com/image/9B/91/26201243-9ff9-0200012A-.jpg[/img] [img]http://a9.cpimg.com/image/D3/93/26201299-9a94-02000155-.jpg[/img] I hope you like the pictures.

Well, it looks as if I am going to disagree a little here. In July, my Belgian had a litter of 8 puppies on a Sunday. I took off from work the following 2 days and watched mother and babies. I did not have to stimulate the pups to defacate, Kira did that all just fine. My main job was to handle them. I watched them to make sure the smallest was getting her share of milk and the largest was not hogging the teats :) . Two days following delivery, Kira and her pups went to the vet. Kira has a slight infection and was put on antibiotics for 10 days. The pups were all healthy and thriving. My main job those first two weeks was to make sure Kira has easy in-out access to her puppies, the other dogs had no access to the puppies and cleaning her everyday, cleaning the teats with warm water, cleaning around the discharge area. She ate in the room where the puppies were, she had food available to her 24/7 and water. Bitches who have whelped a litter need A LOT of food, high nutrition food, high calorie food and lots of water. They need to be monitored at least once daily for heavy bleeding. You need to check in on the pups to make sure they are not under the mother and have not gotten stuck in the whelping box. Papers in the box need to be changed daily. The temperature of the whelping box needs to be at a constant 85 degrees. If it is too hot, the puppies will die. If it is too cold the puppies will die. The mother can lay down and crush a baby and you will never know. I've know many breeders who have lost puppies this way. Also within the first 2 weeks there is something called Failing Puppy Syndrome. Many complete litters are lost to this syndrome. If you are not there you cannot monitor the health and well being of the entire litter and the mother. Anyway, my point is, you need to be vigilant, you are taking a chance leaving them alone while you attend a wedding, but you must be prepared for what might happen if you are not there to monitor the pups and mom. All of them could possibly die ........ is this a risk you are willing to take? Three days after my litters birth, I went to work full time. The pups were alone with Kira from 7am to 6pm everyday and they were fine. She had access to the puppies to feed them and clean up after them the entire time. Once the pups are two weeks old, they will get out of the whelping box, their eyes will open and there is a whole new world to explore. If you can get the pups to two weeks you can probably start to sigh in relief, but then a whole new set of challenges begin. At 3 weeks they start on food ...... 4 times a day. This will be your responsibility and then mom will stop caring for them. You become mom! She will start teaching them other lessons. You will clean up, change papers at least 7 times a day. But first things first ....... you need to get them through the first two weeks of life. I do not think that marebears problem is common. The mother was quite young to have a litter and her environment did not sound nurturing or caring to me. That was a horrid circumstance due to a neglectful and stupid owner ...... it will happen again and again and it is not as uncommon as one might think.

Since I am a breeder, I would not have let them take the puppy from me, irregardless of where they traveled from to get the puppy. I would have waited until the puppy was 100% well then offered to help them pay to come back and get the puppy. Just my take .... never ever would a sick puppy leave my house, even if it was "nothing serious". All pups leave my house healthy, happy, bouncy and energetic.

I have two questions: How old is Zebra now? How long has he been living like this? Once I know these answers I will tell you a story about a foster dog I placed with severe hip dyplasia and how she is doing today without any surgery, a good diet, lots of playtime and what her life expectancy is without any surgery.

How about questions about the anesthesia: What type? how long with the dog be under anesthesia after the surgery? Will they bring her right out of the anesthesia after the surgery? How long will she be hospitalized (estimated time)? Can you come to feed her? Will she be on antibiotics? If so, what kind and how long? When will they try to get her up on her feet? Can you help in doing that? How long will she need to be "crated" or kept under "control" at home? How long do they estimate the surgery to be? What type of hip dyplasia surgery is it? Are they replacing the entire hip, or just shaving and reshaping the femur to go into the socket? Is there arthritis or calcification of the joint/socket? Just off the top of my head, this is what I can think of.

I must be lucky I think. I've had dogs done at 6 months, 9 months, 11 months and 2 years ...... never had any problems whatsoever! I guess my vet is very good at it :)

No No No .... another herding dog ..... the Belgian Tervuren, Belgian Sheepdog, Belgian Malinois and Belgian Laekenois. Nea, you have to stay away from the "herding" breeds or "sporting" breeds and even "working" breeds for that matter ....... they simply are made for apartment living as much as you want a big dog or bigger dog ...... it would be cruel to do that to a dog that has a high energy and activity level.

Actually ....... as a counterpoint to BlackGSD ..... I have two males, one intact and one neutered. The neutered one is the most mature dog I have ever seen or know. The intact male at 4 years old acts like a dopey puppy. Neutering has no effect on personality that I have ever seen and I've had them both of female and male gender.

What I have seen from early spay/neutering is spay incontinence (leaking of a sort) as the pup gets old, bladder infections (more than normal) and taller and leggier dogs. I also do not agree with early spay/neutering, but it is being done more and more with little problem to the dog/bitch except for what I mentioned above. Personally, I wouldn't do it. If you are uncomfortable, tell the breeder you do not want the puppy and find another breeder.

No, I don't breed them ......... I breed Belgian Sheepdogs! I don't make money on breeding, but I do love the breed and want people to love and appreciate them also and yes, I offer to reimburse 50% of the spay neuter cost after it is completed with proof of spay/neuter from their vet. Friends of Animals has a wonderful spay neuter program that most vets take and it is at a discounted price. I also give my puppy buyers the application from FoA for them to check out.

That's OK "K" ......... [ :roflt:

I was trying to help honest :wink: Ferky asked the questions and I tried to be informative and knowledgeable :) But seriously, registration papers mean different things to different people. I think if you buy a pure bred dog, you are entitled to those papers, irregardless if you want them or not. I gave all puppy registration papers to my buyers, signed by me. They have to send in the papers and register the dog. If they do it, great. If not then they paid a lot of money for a pure-bred dog in my humble opinion. I did not price my puppies based on their AKC registration. I based their price on the sire and dam's accomplishments and abilities. Any good breeder knows that you barely break even when breeding a litter ...... breeding a litter should always be to better the breed gene pool.

[quote]BTW- Miles would like to chime in for a second. He'd like his balls back.[/quote] Just like a man! :D :D :D It truly does sound to me as if the breeder did not understand the difference between Limited and Full Registration when writing her contracts. On my puppy contracts, I have them all sold on a Full Registration with a Spay/Neuter clause. I also reimburse 50% of the cost of the neutering ... sort of like an "incentive" to have it done. Again, my advice is to contact the AKC, THEN call or email the breeder and let her know what you are pursuing. My bet is you'll have those papers very quickly :wink:

[quote]Judy: can you explain this statement to me. Why? "I would pursue getting a full registration. There is no reason for a neutered/spayed dog to be under a Limited Registration that I can see." [/quote] OK ..... I'll try, but maybe other breeders here can pitch in also. A Limited Registration, the way I understand it, protects the breeders and hopefully prevents unwanted breedings or BY breeders from breeding their dogs. In the event a breeder sold a dog to a puppy miller unknowingly on a Full Registration, that person could breed that dog over and over and sell them to pet stores as AKC registered. A limited registration would in fact prevent any offspring from being AKC registered. Many people think that AKC registrations on dogs is the "cream of the crop" and the AKC will tell you it virtually means nothing. Most breeders will only sell on a limited registration because they "may want to breed the dog at a later time maybe after health clearances or prevent the buyer from breeding the dog period. Since Miles is fixed, the Limited Registration is moot, as you say. You should get a Full Registration now ........ the breeder has nothing at stake and her "breeding lines" are "safe" (if you will) because Miles cannot pass on his genetics to offspring because he is neutered ......... good for you by the way!

ferky1 ...... it does not seem your breeder understands the difference between Full and Limited Registration only. If I were you, since Miles is neutered, I'd ask for Full Registration. It's no skin off of the breeders nose and certainly none off yours. The breeder has nothing to gain since Miles is neutered by insisting on a Limited Registration. You're right, it's a moot point now ....... sort of 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another or the glass is half empy or half full. It's all a matter of semantics and how you look at the entire situation. But back to the subject at hand, yes, get those papers ..... call the AKC, write them and then let your breeder know what you have done. I would bet you have those papers within 5 days after leaving her that message. She was wrong, you are right! It's got nothing to do with money, it's principle and ethics ......

If you have a contract that states clearly that Miles was sold on a limited registration, write to the AKC and send along a copy of the contract (hopefully with your signature and the breeders signature) call the AKC and talk to them about it. They state above that they will do something if that occurs. Breeders hate to have the AKC sicced on them, it's a very serious problem when the AKC calls you ...... sort of like the IRS calling to conduct an audit of your finances :P I think the statute you are referring to is for "pet stores only" not breeders who breed the occasion litter (1 a year). Carol, I did not see where Miles is neutered. If that is the case, which I still did not read, then I would pursue getting a full registration. There is no reason for a neutered/spayed dog to be under a Limited Registration that I can see.

This is from the AKC site: [b]If you are buying a dog that is supposed to be registerable with the AKC you should realize it is your responsibility to obtain complete identification of the dog or you should not buy the dog. Failure to get AKC "registration papers" causes more grief for buyers of pure-bred registerable dogs than any other problem except sickness. It has long been common practice to explain the inability saying "AKC hasn't sent the papers yet." The essence of this and similar excuses is that because the American Kennel Club is at fault, papers are not available. The fact is that the processing of any AKC registration item takes approximately three weeks. If a breeder is doing his paperwork in a regular, careful manner, there is ample time to obtain the necessary "papers" from AKC prior to sale of any puppy. When "papers" are not available at the time of delivery, it is a red-flag warning sign to exercise extreme caution. [/b] Also, I think you are misunderstanding what "limited" registration means via the AKC website: [b]Limited Registration Limited Registration means that the dog is registered but no litters produced by that dog are eligible for registration. Chapter 3, Section 4A of the AKC's Rules Applying to Registration & Discipline states the following: "Limited Registration may be requested for a dog when application for individual registration of the dog is submitted, provided the application, together with a request for such limitation, is filed by the owner(s) of the litter at birth. No offspring of a dog for which Limited Registration has been granted is eligible for registration. Each registration certificate for such dog shall carry notice of the limitation, and the limitation shall continue, regardless of any change of ownership, unless and until the owner(s) of the litter at birth shall apply to AKC for removal of the limitation." A dog registered with an AKC Limited Registration shall be ineligible to be entered in a breed competition in a licensed or member dog show. It is eligible, however, to be entered in any other licensed or member event. These events include: Obedience, Tracking, Field Trials, Hunting Tests, Herding, Lure Coursing, Agility and Earthdog. Limited Registration is determined by the litter owner(s). The litter owner(s) check the Limited Registration box on the AKC registration application (blue form) rather than the Full Registration box. A litter owner must confirm the choice by signing in the signature box provided on the form. If the litter is co-owned, the owner and co-owner must sign individually. Limited Registration certificates are white with an orange border; the Full Registration certificate is white with a purple border. Limited Registration can be changed to Full Registration only by the litter owner(s). The litter owner(s) will need to obtain the Application for Removal of Limited Registration of an AKC-Registered Dog (form AXLTDR). That form will then need to be completed and sent to our Raleigh address with a $25.00 processing fee. After processing, we will send a Full Registration certificate to the dog's owner. Note: You can download the application from our website. The application is in .pdf format and requires the use of Adobe's Acrobat Reader to view the application. Adobe's Acrobat Reader can be obtained free of charge from [url]www.adobe.com[/url]. Limited Registration helps breeders protect their breeding programs. If breeders do not want puppies used for breeding purposes, they can request the Limited Registration option for those puppies. The American Kennel Club does not license or endorse anyone engaged in the commerce of selling purebred dogs and, therefore, has no control over the business practices of those involved in such transactions. Membership in The American Kennel Club is comprised of independent dog clubs located throughout the United States. No individual persons are members of the AKC. [i]The AKC will not become involved in disputes concerning 'full' or 'limited' registration of a dog. These disputes must be resolved by the parties involved in the sale of the dog. The only exception to this is in cases where there is a contract, signed by all parties involved and made at the time of the dog sale, that stipulates the registration status.[/i] In those cases, AKC will initiate an inquiry on the matter. [/b] It seems you have to deal with the breeder directly without AKC intervention unless you have a contract signed stipulating this was a sale with a Limited Registration. All of my contracts are quite specific the type of registration I give with the puppies I breed. Essentially, limited registration means that if you breed this dog, it's puppies CANNOT be AKC registered or shown in Conformation events. Neutering really has no bearing on a Limited Registration. I do not think it was fully explained to you why the dog was sold on a limited registration. If the dog is more than 6 months right now, there is a fine to pay for the person or breeder that has waited too long to register the dogs. I would call the breeder again and ask for the papers or call directly to the AKC to get papers and register him yourself. However, you will need sire and dam information, litter # etc. How old is Miles?

All of my puppies went from mothers milk, to goats milk soaked kibble to BARF. They are all thriving and have been eating BARF full time since 8 weeks old.

K - you are to be admired and respected. I had to laugh and chuckle at the posts about "being welcomed" and "would beg you to stay". I think that is marvelous to have such friends. I too have cyber friends that I do not personally know because of geography, but I know that I would always be welcomed in their homes and they in mine. A few of my dogs are from these friends ...... one as far away as Finland and one from Montana USA. It's much easier guys to just agree or disagree than to take the long way around to come in the back door :lol: I always teach my dogs the quickest way to any point is a straight line .... my children also as long as it is done with honesty, truthfulness and best intentions. There is no need to reiterate to me or "make me see the light" that you all are friends ..... it is obvious. I just prefer my close friends to be "nearby"! :lol:

Whoa ....... I am not belittling anything! Go back and read ..... I clearly said I was not bashing ...... I love the support I get from friends that are cyber friends ......... but I love the human touch and my dogs touch even more along with human interaction ..... that is where my emotional stability comes from ..... not the internet. Dogs are pack animals and like animals I think humans require that same thing to mature and develop and grow. I feel there is nothing wrong with cyber friendships ..... I just think that pleading with a cyberfriend to "Please Stay" should be done privately. It draws lines between posters and moderators.

It sounds nice K .... I am glad that I have a very supportive family, husband, children (even tho young), my dog friends, and my circle of friends, neighbors and school friends. I suppose wherever you feel loved and able to "let your hair down" is where you should be. I am ever grateful for the advice I get on the boards, but I am more grateful for the folks who lend a real shoulder to cry on and for those real hugs I get in times of need and the real shoulder and real hugs I can give in return. Whatever works for you and everyone else is what works. I still don't think that anyone should be pleaded with to return to a board they are unhappy with. I think private messages are the way to go with that .... Oh well ......... I wish you the best in "friendship".

I visit a few boards and many of the posters I consider my "cyber-friends" ...... not my friends, as in my "circle of personal acquaintances". To me, there is a difference. Of course, you all, or we all get support when we ask for it from message boards ...... there are "cyber-friends" I know that I will ask for advice from about training/dogs etc before I would ask a personal friend. Perhaps it is all a matter of semantics? This is just my opinion, not an attack or a bashing of anyone.

I have to agree with Mei-Mei. There aren't many boards left for Naomi to leave. This is the internet ...... everyone needs to grow up and understand that people use the internet ..... sometimes people let their frustrations out on others they don't know because it's easy. No one should beg, ask or plead anyone to return. It's their choice ...... Naomi is learning how to care for her dogs and offer her experience to others. Naomi and I have had our disagreements on another board and she left. I wish her the best with her dogs and her life, but to plead with someone to come back ....... it shouldn't happen and no one here or anywhere should place that much importance on a "cyber-friendship". Owning dogs is a learning experience throughout the dogs life with you. A new dog will offer you a new learning experience. No one knows everything ........ to be closed minded and hurt because others do not agree with your posts/opinions is childish ....... unless the posts were malicious to begin with. Maturing takes time in humans and animals.

First, I did not read all the replies you received, so if I am repeating something already said, I apologize. Two things about the "Leave It" and "Down" commands ..... both are asking for submissive behavior from the dog, so if you dog is not submissive at least to you, you have a double issue. The way I taught "Leave It" I would have the dog on a 20' lead (not a flexi). If she was sniffing something, or barking along the fence line, I would say "Kira, Leave It" and tug the lead. When she turned to look at me (because of the tug on the lead) I would profusely praise her then call her "Kira Here". She would come to me and I would use extremely good treats to praise her and let her know that she did exactly as I wished. The premise of the leave it command is to ask the dog to "Leave" whatever it is investigating and NOT GO BACK to it. Leave it means leave it for good and return to my space, at least that is the premise of the command. Down is also a very submissive for a dog. So again, if your dog has problems allowing you to be the leader in the relationship, this can take some time. The way I taught down was while watching TV at night. I would sit on my couch with pockets of treats and my clicker. Of course the dogs all know I have treats and would "sit" in front of me. I would ask "Lie Down" or "Down" and look at the floor, not at the dog. No Down, No Praise, No Treats. I would totally ignore her. Five minutes later, I'd say "Lie Down" and stare again at the floor. After 4 or 5 repetitions of this, she laid down when I told her. I clicked/treated and profusely praised. It took one night to teach a down or "Lie Down". I consistently asked for these behaviors anywhere we went, to the strip mall, for a walk, anywhere. It took a week to get a consistent 100% "Down" and "Leave It". The exercise should be done between 500 and 750 times a day and if you are home with your dog all day, it's really not as much as it seems. Down is Down ...... when you ask for it, you must get it. Leave it is Leave it ..... if you want it, work for it. The dog must comply and feel it is doing the best thing in the entire universe for you.

[quote]"This is a stupid idea. We should be encouraged to drink milk and I certainly won't stop drinking milk just because a man has dressed up as a cow outside my school."[/quote] Too funny ........ that just about sums it up! :P