Horsefeathers!

Congratulations, Courtnek! I also wanted to wait until it was a done deal to say anything. I hate to jinx anybody! You'll never regret for a moment taking in an old special needs pet. It's ironic that today (9-1-03) is the one year anniversary of the passing of a very special little old dog we had last year (the little Yorkie in my avatar). He was older than dirt and we only had him for a little over a year, but I would never trade the heartache over losing him and the experience of having known him for anything in the world. You're doing a great thing and in the end, YOU'LL benefit greatly from it!

I do think we have been VERY civil in regard to responses in this topic this time compared to the verbal bashing guests get just for being guests and daring to offer an opinion, or wannabe breeders get when they may actually have learned something had someone been civil enough to try. If this topic is locked, I believe we should lock any topic that deals with breeding, diet (as that sometimes becomes contoversial) and several other things if it looks like it might become controversial. I honestly hope we never come to that. I've noticed recently that we are becoming a group of head nodders and amen shouters and people seem to get upset with anything that disrupts the flow of "amens." Say it ain't so! So far, during this thread, we've (collectively) actually been pretty decent... no one has let loose NEAR the barrage I've seen (and probably dealt) in the past. Perhaps getting it out in the open once and for all would be good. Many questions have been asked in the past and many have been asked now in hopes that we learn something we didn't know that would change our minds. Obviously, banning the topic hasn't worked as people are still curious and I think rightly so. I think my biggest sore spot is the staunch defense Hmmm gets since Hmmm is "just being honest," but a guest on this forum takes a verbal beating for not knowing how important it is to this group to take a sign in name and daring to offer an opinion, or that a person who is cranking out puppies and doesn't know any better (that person was once me) is beat to death with words because "we're just being honest and telling it like it is" rather than at least offer the benefit of doubt and trying to help the unfortunate puppies on the way and try to prevent further litters. I see such double standards. :( I said last time and I'll say it again... if there's something I'm not understanding, tell me so I WILL understand. I need more than finger pointing and diversion ("other people are doing worse things while MY dogs are well taken care of"). Tell me PLEASE how it is a dog that is game tested is more reliable than any other dog who is not. I just don't get that and I am sincere when I say I would like to know. I can't wrap my brain around the idea of a dog that can hold its own with another dog being a BETTER dog. I really DO like this forum and no one welcomes diversity in opinions more than I do. No matter what I really think of Hmmm, I think I have been respectful and, though I don't agree with what everyone says, I never want them to be afraid or unable to say it.

[quote name='Michele']Horsefeathers: any breed can attack. [/quote] Well, YEAH. Still, it's beside the point. I have never met an Akita yet that wasn't at least iffy at best. Not saying they aren't out there. I just haven't met one. If I have to have a breed prejudice, Akitas (and one other breed) are it. I'm not saying I think they should be banned, or any of that crap. I just hope they never become popular enough that ignorant masses start acquiring them and the Akita show people I've met are the first to say that an Akita in the hands of an inexperienced owner is dangerous.

Since I'm so good at p*ssing people off, I might as well spit this out. First of all, I'm NOT in favor of any breed specific legislations, BUT I do see Akitas in much the same light as the general public sees Pit Bulls, Rotties and such. To be totally honest, there are two breeds of dogs I am afraid of and Akitas are one. I hope this breed NEVER appears in a popular movie or becomes popular because the idea of Akitas being acquired and owned by novice pet owners scares the heebie jeebies out of me. I'm not going anywhere with that. It was just my own reflection and, I reckon, to see who else I could p*ss off ("don't you know that all dogs are a product of their environment and training and...???"). :-?

[quote name='K']OK I dont want to comment/argue any more either so I give up..I am wrong ....I cant get people to change thier mind once they have it set no matter what I say ...we can never see eye to eye on this...so I am tired. it is late. I capitulate...congatulations you wore me down again....K. Argue and slag off all you like without me...[/quote] K, it saddens me that you perceive any of this as a direct attack on you. No one is trying to wear you down, or argue with you. All I can say is that I hate that you feel that way. You are very outspoken and speak out often for what you believe is right. I am saddened that you believe that anyone else who does the same is only trying to pick a fight.

Why is it when someone disagrees, it's arguing or slagging? :-?

K, I swear I don't want to argue this, but I'm getting sucked in. I *might* have felt differently (I doubt it) had I not seen some of Hmmm's own posts that admitted that dogs were sometimes lost (killed) and called it "unavoidable" (direct quote). Again, I see your point about all the ignorant breeders adding to the problem, but to me, it is just comparing evils. No matter how many other atrocities exist to compare it to, I will never be able to accept it. I asked long before for someone to show the warm and fuzzy side of dog fighting to me and to assure me that these dogs weren't being killed, but read that sometimes deaths were "unavoidable." That made quite an impact on me. If it makes me a "humaniac" (quote du jour by the pro-fighters), then so be it. I don't care the environment... back alley thugs, or carefully HIDDEN and high class society attended. To me, wrong is wrong, whether done by low class thugs, or articulate, well spoken, seemingly well informed people. I don't differentiate between classes if a crime is being committed. A love for the breed, IMO, doesn't justify it. As I pointed out a long time ago, people do all kinds of things in the name of "love." Wife beaters and child molesters "love" their victims. I know this is beating a dead horse, but I'm glad someone else had the fortitude to mention it. When I brought it up before, a "new" rule was in place that forbade us to talk about dog fighting here, regardless of the presence of a known fighter. I respectfully complied, but I know how Carol feels, seeing people who care so much for the welfare of dogs in general embracing a known dog fighter. We can all gang up on someone who is actually seeking knowledge and maybe TRYING to learn something regardless of mistakes, but to address a dog fighter is taboo and how dare anyone else have an objecting opinion. I have a hard time with that. For the record, several years ago, I was considering breeding my own two poorly bred dogs (not Pits) because they were both AKC registered and, in my ignorance, I thought that was all they needed to be "quality." It was through the effort of people who taught me better that I learned differently and know just how stupid that really was. I'm glad, though, that people took the time to help me learn rather than just ridicule me. I'm ONE person who will never contribute to the overpopulation problem. Imagine the difference we could make if we cared enough to bite our tongues and help someone learn rather than offer blatant insults in an effort to justify someone else's wrongdoing. Sure, many will never learn, but what about that ONE that will? Anyway, that's just changing the topic... I've been told repeatedly that I "just don't understand." Well, explain it to me so I do. Still respectfully disagreeing, HF

Sorry, K. I'm with Carol on this. I've already been through all this before, so had left it alone (and don't intend to battle it again since being requested not to), but I have to support and respect her for speaking out. You already know how I feel. I believe BOTH (dog fighting AND ignorant breeding) are wrong. Again, sorry. You asked. :(

I know this isn't going to be popular, but I thought this was a place where diversity in opinions was welcome. Guest had an unpopular opinion, but I didn't see anything in his/her post that was inflammatory or mean spirited. It was just their own insight. While we may not agree with what people say, I think they shouldn't have to be afraid to say it, guest or not, as long as it isn't blatant trolling. As far as it being a guest and not having a sign in name, they may have considered joining before being ridiculed for having a different opinion. Now I wouldn't blame them if they don't. What a welcome. :( I hope this never becomes a place where all we do is sit around in the amen corner and just nod and agree with whatever rolls off someone's keyboard and the rest be dam*ed. I love diversity and seeing other folks' points of view and think they should be respected, guests or not. Let's attack actions, if we must, and not opinions. Just my two cents. :-?

It sounds like a perfectly normal neuter. The skin will likely draw back up and it won't be so prominant. I know what you mean. We always called it a flat tire on our dogs. It seems that the older the dog, the longer it takes that skin to shrink, but it eventually will. :)

Mary's mama, just because YOU don't like it doesn't make it wrong. You have yet to tell me one thing "wrong" with it except that YOU don't like it. Please tell me what I'm doing that's detrimental to my dog's overall health and wellbeing and then maybe I'll change my mind. She doesn't mind, the other dogs aren't pointing and laughing, so I don't get where the problem lies. Educate me. People do lots of things with their pets that are for the OWNERS' fulfillment (again, those studded/spiked collars, costumes, clothes come to mind... tell me what the dog gets out of those... still, I would never deny a dog owner the choice to do that if they want to, no matter how silly I think it is). What does a stinky dog get out of a bath? HE doesn't care if he stinks, but the bath is for the selfish owner's desire to not have his olfactory senses offended. If you bathe your dog, you're being selfish and irresponsible! Let the dog smell natural! You have terriers... do you hand strip them (I have no clue if you show or not)? Oh, the horror of hand stripping terriers! Nature didn't intend for them to have hair yanked out. Then again, I guess grooming altogether is to satisfy owner vanity. After all, why not let dogs become the stinking matballs nature intended? Seriously, it's as ridiculous to me that people get upset over something so silly as it is to you that someone would color a dog. If anyone can give me any substantiated facts as to why it's detrimental to a dog's overall health, I'll gladly take it into consideration. You'll have to do better than the fact that you don't like it, though. Call me irresponsible all you want to, but can you substantiate that with facts of how my dog is being potentially harmed? I don't care who thinks it's silly, goofy, something they wouldn't do. People do things every day that I think are outright stupid and would never consider doing, but I'm just a live and let live sort of person. If it's stupid, but harmless, I can live with it. I'll be sure to post pictures when I color my Standard Poodle red, white and blue. If the other dogs point and laugh, I'll color them all, too, so they'll all be on a level playing field. Heck, I may just color my Toy this weekend just because now my mind is on it (she's never been purple... hmmm). 8) Pwrpufgirlz, I don't know what kind of Manic Panic you used, but the stuff I used stayed there until it GREW out. It doesn't rub off, wash off, or wear off and barely faded until it grew out and was eventually clipped off. My dog was pink for months (and never a single skin reaction).

Well, since I'm not one to be easily offended or hurt, I'll just keep my opinion that dying is harmless. My dog doesn't mind it; she actually loves the attention she draws from it and, being raised in a grooming studio/veterinary clinic, she doesn't know she isn't supposed to enjoy it. She enjoys grooming, but we have that kind of bond. I guess I see things differently. Being involved in various aspects of rescue, I see so much abuse, neglect, abandonment and other atrocities being carried out against animals. I reckon I just pick and choose my battles and a dog being dyed a different color than "nature" intended them to be just doesn't rub me the wrong way. If my Poodle had a problem with it, I'm sure I wouldn't force it on her. That just seems like common sense(?). To further fan the flames (never one to fear the wrath of others), I DO use Manic Panic. Yes, the dye NOT meant for dogs. I also use Listerine (diluted) as a rinse on dogs with certain skin problems or odors, Dawn as a degreaser (followed by the skin appropriate products), Vaseline on my dogs to prevent tear stains under the eyes, Neosporin ointment on certain cuts or abrasions, corn starch for a quick brush out/freshen up, hair spray/styling mousse/gel on really limp coats that need a boost, vinegar (diluted) as a rinse on some dogs, and I can't even begin to think of what all else I might use "off label." NONE of these products are labeled for use on dogs, but with a little education and an open mind, I've learned that any of these products (and others) has its place. You have to learn a little chemistry, but you'd be surprised in what's in some of the products labeled for use on dogs. Ph balanced ain't all it's cracked up to be. Oh, ph balance is important, per se, but just because something is LABELED ph balanced doesn't mean it's a good product. There's a lot of chemistry behind this stuff. Things labeled FOR USE on dogs I would never touch? Top Spot, Bio Spot, anything made my Hartz, a long list of foods, many brands of dog shampoos. I will never buy another ounce of a Nature's Choice shampoo. It's made FOR USE on dogs, but I had too many problems with it. Don't get me wrong. I have a whole array of very high quality products made FOR USE on dogs (fave brands- Pet Silk, Nature's Specialties). I don't use primarily off label products, but I did take an interest in the chemistry of shampoos and other products and learned a lot. I used to believe the masses... "must be made FOR dogs," but if you knew what was in some of the "for dogs" crap out there, you'd cringe. Also, if you knew the real deal behind "ph balanced," you'd realize that absolute rubbish can be labeled and marketed as "ph balanced." It's not an assurance of quality. Soooooooo... if you really want to raise a ruckus, join me in trying to stamp out homelessness, animal overpopulation, abuse, neglect and cruelty. Don't be so freaked out over a pink Poodle. You don't have to like it, but again, I don't like spiked/studded collars, coats, jackets, t-shirts, costumes and booties on dogs, either. To each, his/her own. :)

I know, I know, I'm always doing this:[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YwDUAqUfZk2VQwKU1!51HdetqBQpkey6r4Ba*Uqc8bfdY8h*3b6rvSdKSunlCzz!BT!jdfFigyEal07zKEqu8GYzKFBV8m4dzvelTAXqkeGgZjrlbAyh2xwqR4X1g92VHgasC7iDYmcvWdQhKQ2O!g/can%20o%20worms.jpg?dc=4675436072335082448[/img] :o

[quote name='PITBULL FAN'][img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDUAnQfFjqPoHbo*VO*k6YkVsjsui1KYGfqoPb3PGet0mEYsc71EksSfApXuugKjHdt1Ms4!cD27pQV8nrn8RUEz8INFOTJ4Y7k3Zm!c9uEBngtEstgEcUIspeAa!VL4dPfYKzfH*NGn!PTagXUzA/crying%20girl.gif?dc=4675436072349453090[/img][/quote] Sorry, Hazel. Couldn't help it. *snicker* You know K (or one of the others) will dump this as soon as they see it, so don't panic. 8)

I have a Pit/Boxer cross. We know her "lineage," so to speak, because the parents and grandparents of this bitch were intentionally bred and then the poor overbred mother decided she had had enough and just quit raising her last litter, so we ended up with our Penny when she was only 4-5 weeks old :x , but I digress... I think in cases of mixed breeds or unknown heritage, there's no way of really knowing what traits from each breed an individual dog is going to carry. My Penny is EXTREMELY dog aggressive and must be monitored at all times when around our others. Not a day goes by that we don't wonder if she should be put to sleep, or if we are jeopardizing our other dogs' safety. I often wonder if I'm just being naive in thinking that if we try hard enough, we can stop any problems before they begin, or if a major problem is inevitable despite our best intentions. The aggression didn't begin until she was around 2 years old and she was raised around other dogs her entire life. I know this may draw some heat from some, but just based on my experiences and my "if I'd known then what I know now" frame of mind, I don't believe an inexperienced owner who already has other dogs in the household should adopt a Pit Bull or mix. What's sad about that is that there's really no way of knowing what a Pit or mix really is since descriptions vary so from person to person and also there's no way of knowing which ones will be good with other dogs and which ones won't. When I say inexperienced, I mean in the sense of familiarity with Pit Bulls, not just dogs in general. Anyway, that's just my two cents, for what it's worth. If you are looking for a playmate for your other dog, I just think I'd consider something besides a Pit Bull or mix. It's not to say they are ALL "bad," or that any other dog couldn't have the same issues, but I've just learned that dog aggression in Pits is considered normal and wouldn't ever put myself or my other animals through this again, knowing what I know now.

Thanks, Guest. Food for thought, for sure. You seem to have done a lot of reading on this, yourself. I just never really gave the whole Iams thing much thought before since I didn't support the company financially by buying their products. I knew they were a subsidiary of P&G who I've also heard rotten things about. It's just very difficult sometimes to know who to believe when reading about things like this. I, too, do not care much for mob mentality and I like to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brain falls out. It's just SO difficult for me to take anything PETA says at face value. I've seen so many things coming from them that weren't just misleading, but outright lies and deception and some of their terrorist tactics and affiliations just take away any credibility I could otherwise give them. That's just me, though. Anyway, thanks for the insight. Definitely stuff to ponder. You sure seem to have done your homework. I came across that thread on the ebay boards and I just can't stay away from a good debate, though I never participated in that one (I had nothing to back up any opinions). :oops:

I don't know, "Guest." I haven't researched it at all yet, so I'm not ready to offer an opinion. Do you have any links to share that offer insight? Sure, I can research it, but I would like to read exactly what it is that makes you feel the way you do in addition to anything I might dig up.

In other words, I reiterated what K said about the chicken and rice. That's what I get for not reading thoroughly. :-?

Just my unprofessional opinion here, but I would think any kind of puppy food may be a bit too rich. I'm thinking that you may want to start this pup off on something really super easy to digest. About the best thing I've found for ill dogs who have upset tummies is bland boiled (boneless) chicken and rice. You could try offering that in small amounts to see if it helps just as a short term way to try to get something into this pooch. Whenever I've had to nurse an upset tummy, this seems to be the best thing that stays with them. That's only in reference to food to help with an upset tummy. Since we don't know what's causing it, I'd really suggest a vet visit and a fecal check. There are many things, some very serious, that can cause diarrhea and since it's been several days with little improvement, it's worth a look by a vet. Good luck.

I need to start wearing my glasses when I read. I clicked on this because I swore I saw a title that said "Rhodesian Midgets." Are those the miniaturized versions of the Rhodesian Ridgebacks? :oops:

[color=red]WARNING~~~ POTENTIAL DEBATE MATERIAL.[/color] Check out this thread on another board about Iams and PETA. I've heard all the horror stories about Iams as most everyone here probably has, but it never really meant a lot to me since I don't buy Iams products, anyway (just not crazy about the contents). About the PETA part of the thread... I'll have to admit that I'm vehemently anti-PETA, so I do tend to discredit anything they sensationalize until I see further CREDIBLE proof. I read this discussion with great interest (just because I'm nosy that way). I haven't researched it further, but I will. I'm very curious to dig a little deeper into this just to see what I come up with. Anyway, see what you think. The threads on ebay are tricky and sometimes you have to scroll down and click on the option to view previous or following posts. The posts are all numbered, so that's how you can be sure you are viewing them all. [url]http://forums.ebay.com/db1/thread.jsp?forum=2&thread=2291302&modifed=20030823202645[/url]

[quote name='PitBull Fan']P.S. Anyone can copy and paste articles on this board and be well read on a subject. It's all together a different thing to actually do it. Which is something no one on this board could ever prove they do. [/quote] And you can't prove they don't. You also can't prove any of the crap you keep spouting off, so what's your point besides just trying to hash out a smear campaign against Goo? Oh, that's right... she p*ssed you off when her beliefs conflicted with yours a little while back. Nice that you had to come back as a guest to have the balls to talk that shiznit. It speaks volumes for your character. [u]If[/u] you had a dog? What about the two that you let run loose at the park? Or is that your "buddy"? Anyhoo, it's hardly worth it to try to engage in a battle of wits with such an obviously "empirically" unarmed opponent. Resources galore have been offered to you. Do you even bother to read any of the stuff offered to at least try to form a half intelligent opinion, or is it just much easier to argue using what you [u]think[/u]? It won't matter, anyway, until you can recognize the difference between dog aggression and human aggression. It seems like such a simple concept, but it still escapes you. How can it be possible that everyone here, including some pretty young kids, can understand it EXCEPT you?

Aonir, never apologize for voicing your own opinion. You have a right to speak your opinion just as well as I do, or anyone else here does. We have just been having a problem with a disgruntled poster lately, posting under different (or no) names and basically trying to beat an already dead topic to death. No apologies necessary from you at all. :)

Goo, you are being baited (in regard to Guest) by someone who hasn't liked your answers in the past. Don't take the bait. No need to dignify that post with a response. I fully believe all it's intended to do is coax you into an argument and I believe it's *ahem* someone who has really not liked any of the "empirical" (one of their favorite words) evidence you've so articulately put forth in your posts. In other words, don't feed the troll. Save yourself the aggravation. I'll stick my neck out further to say this... just from seeing the time Gooey has spent researching and making the effort to actually LEARN something and the time taken to try to pass some of that along, I'd trust her(? :oops: ) any time with her dog under her control around any of mine as I fully believe she is just that responsible. Gooey is EXACTLY the kind of owner that a dog like that needs rather than someone who just blindly believes "it's all in how they're raised." Guest is just blowing smoke. Gooey, I am only assuming you are a she? I honestly don't know. :oops:

[quote name='shaye']So why can't I make up my mind?? Because people already think I'm the crazy dog lady. [/quote] Pshaw! After about the fifth or sixth one, they get over it. My neighbors all roll their eyes in disgust when they see eight sets of paws heading up the steps and into my house. No, I'd much rather be keeping company with the drunks and crackheads I see in and out of THEIR houses. *snicker* :evilbat: Welcome! :)