Horsefeathers!

Courtnek, I wish you all the luck. You're a better woman than me. I'm the kind of person who would invite the b*stard down for coffee to "discuss" it, let him in all nice-nice, and blow his freaking brains out (self defense, you know), all AFTER documenting the threats, etc. with the proper authorities. There is nothing I hate worse than someone who victimizes others by using terror tactics to be in control. That just sucks. Again, I hope things work out well for you. You know you are going to have to check in regularly now or everyone is going to get all freaked out. Stay in constant touch.

Many of mine sleep with me. My dogs are all allowed to be pretty much anywhere they wish. If my guests don't like dog hair, boy are they in the wrong place! The only dog who is "grounded" is Devin and it's only because we are working on dominance issues with him and he is currently undergoing rigorous doggie boot camp. As soon as he "gets it," he'll have more privileges. The hubby is great, but there's nothing better on a cold night than to be skooshed up between two Standard Poodles and having one little dog in my chest and another on my feet. Heaven. :)

[i][b]This is a really disturbing post that I got from one of my grooming lists. This really haunts me. The stupidity and apathy of some people just make my head spin sometimes. :-? Crossposted:[/b][/i] This is a VERY sad true story, so if you are not in the mood, don't read. I got a call from a client yesterday. Seems there is a guy at the end of their street who has a 1 year old Golden. He is chained to a tree. On Saturday night, it was very cold here with sleet and freezing rain. I even brought my 2 belgian sheep dogs inside for the night and they LOVE the cold weather! Anyway, my clients were on their way to get some coffee on Sunday morning and they happened to look over only to see this poor golden frozen to death in a sitting position! Seems he had gotten his chain caught around part of the tree and couldn't get to his dog house. The chain was hung from above so he couldn't get caught in it if it were on the ground. His 5 gallon bucket of water was frozen solid, I use a heated bucket for my dogs when they are out, and his food dish had 3 inches of snow in it. This is the second dog this guy has had. The sheriff and animal control were called right away. Seems they can't do anything because the dog had shelter and supposed food and water, though he really didn't if you think about it. My client called me for advice and I told him to go straight to the County Commissioner's and tell them since they head our animal control here. They are also going to go to the local paper with photos. The sheriff took photos as well, but since nothing can be done, I don't know what good they will do. I was sick to my stomach imagining this poor dog and how it must have suffered. It was even 10am on Sunday and the guy hadn't even been outside to check on the poor dog! I would like to go and beat him with something!!!! Just makes you think how inhumane some people really are when it comes to their animals......

I've signed up for that board, but it will be tomorrow before I can really surf around to try to catch up. In the meantime, I'll send out positive thoughts and energy. :(

A Lhasa Apso? What's funny is that I have three of the beasts (like doodoohead Devin) and their appeal to me has always been that, unlike most small breeds bred primarily for companionship, they are more independent, aloof and a bit head strong. This is the first one of these quizzes that pegged me as a Lhasa. The others always have me as a Collie or a Bassett Hound. I certainly do share this hairstyle, though. :-? [img]http://a820.g.akamai.net/f/820/822/1d/www.ivillage.com/pets/breedsatoz/nonsport/1lhasano.jpg[/img]"The Lhasa Apso may be petite, but she is one tough cookie. Always ready to romp, her daily exercise requirements may leave her companions winded. Fond of her loved ones, she is likely to cuddle up with them at night, content to be doted on. Her long coat requires regular maintenance but is sure to turn heads when properly styled. The rambunctious little Lhasa Apso has awell-earned reputation for her lovability."

Actually, I honestly do not know. I mean, I imagine if it got REALLY ugly, the resources it could take to enforce it could definitely hamper the effort. That's another reason why I always try to err on the side of caution. I truly do not want to ever be put into that position to find out. The one dog I did repossess, I was able to convince (badger, coerce, whatever it took) her to give the dog up. If I'd had to, though, I would have taken him right out of her house (I do visit there). By being so cautious (I like to think), I've so far been able to avoid an ugly scene with anyone, but I've always believed I would try to handle it diplomatically if the situation arose. However, if need be, I would not hesitate to knock on someone's door and snatch the dog up and leave, or just pluck him out of someone's yard. I've never had to do it, but I know I would if I thought I needed to. If you ever read the contract I signed with the rescue group I got my first Standard from, it would make your head spin. It is 4 pages long of specifics. The resue contact, from another state, keeps in touch with me and does ask for updates. One weird scenario... another girl in my state got one of the Standards from the same rescue (believed to be a littermate of mine) and broke the contract in several ways. The rescue contact was able to deem the dog repossessed (remember, she is in another state) and remanded him to my custody (the new owner did give him up) and he is now officially mine, too, but with the same 4 pages of stipulations. It was a weird situation, but last I heard, these two were actually tied up in court over the breaking of contracts. Again, our rescue is just my husband and me, so we don't have a lot of legal backing (another reason we are soooo cautious), but apparently some of these rescues can and do go after people in court if need be.

[quote name='kendalyn'][quote]Actually, the law DOES mandate how children, adopted or not, are to be treated. If you adopt a child and the government doesn't like the way you raise it, they DO have the right to "repossess" them. [/quote] Yes, the law says this as it also requires certain treatment of dogs, but the adopting mother does not retain any control over the specific upbringing of her former child. Just as I don't believe you should over dogs that you adopt out (unless requested by the owner). [/quote] Again, it's easy enough for people to choose not to accept the terms rather than try to change them, or get upset about it. They are what I perceive to be right and it has worked for us. [quote name='kendalyn']I don't have a problem with continued relationship or committment if that is what the owner wants obviously,[/quote] It's not about what the new owner wants, but about the welfare of the dog involved. [quote name='kenalyn'] but I think it's kind of crazy when potential owners are required to inform the breeders/rescuers of address changes. I mean, if someone sold their house and moved to a rented apartment, would you then repossess the dog?[/quote] Possibly. A lot would depend on circumstances, but I can tell you I would require written verification (obtained in person by ME) that the property owner was aware of and ok with the dog before even considering leaving it there. If that person has one of my rescues, they agreed to my terms which include my right to remove it. I say this again, if it's too much hassle, then one should get a dog from a source where dogs are more easily obtainable rather than have ill feelings toward people who are not in such a hurry to get rid of theirs. With the huge overpopulation problem, getting a dog is easy as can be, so IMO it's wasted energy trying to change the minds and ways of people who truly care about and are committed to the lifetime wellbeing of their puppies/fosters/rescues. :)

[quote name='kendalyn'][quote]What a lot of people fail to realize is that WE also make a lifetime commitment to these dogs. It doesn't end when they leave our physical care[/quote] This is actually the attitude that bothers me about breeders/rescuers that adopt out dogs. Actually, the relationship does end when the dogs leave your physical care. [/quote] The relationship may end, but not the [u]commitment[/u]. If I weren't committed, I wouldn't give a crap who gets my dog or what happens to it. I'm committed to making sure (as is possible) these dogs are kept current on heartworm prevention (major killer around here), these dogs aren't just left tied to a tree when someone gets pregnant (I offer a lifetime take back policy... I do not want my dogs dumped at the shelter because of a major lifestyle change), they are provided adequate vet care and things like that. I'm not such a stickler about what they are fed, though I do strongly suggest what I feel to be best... the whole adoption doesn't hinge on that. I mean, I won't deny someone an adoption if they feed Dog Chow vs. Wellness, though I much prefer the Wellness and other higher quality foods. [quote name='kendalyn'] It's like someone giving up a kid for adoption but mandating throughout the kid's life what he/she is allowed to do and how the parents should treat the child. Or perhaps someone selling a car and continuously checking to see if it is getting all the scheduled oil changes.[/quote] Actually, the law DOES mandate how children, adopted or not, are to be treated. If you adopt a child and the government doesn't like the way you raise it, they DO have the right to "repossess" them. I can't really relate to the car analogy as cars are inanimate objects and I place more value on the lives of my dogs. [quote name='kendalyn']I really think that once the dog is released to the new owners, they should be able to decide everything that happens to the dog. It is after all their dog. [/quote] I agree. That's why I put so much effort in trying to find [u]my idea[/u] of the best possible home, so that once the dog is home, hopefully the new [u]responsible[/u] owners will not need my interference. I have only ever repossessed one dog and I'm glad I retained the right to do it. The family was inadvertently creating a monster with this dog and, despite my attempts to help with training and behavior modification, continued to encourage the behavior that would eventually cause this dog to be put to sleep. Since he was no longer in my physical custody, should I have stopped caring what happened to him? Again, even if the relationship was over, my commitment to him was not and I DID "repossess" him. I don't put forth the effort, time and money into these dogs to not care what happens to them and throw up my hands when they leave as no longer being my problem. Again, it may not be perfect and it may p*ss off a lot of people, but I feel that the people who are so upset at my "rules" are probably best off buying a dog from a newspaper ad from someone who is happy to end their commitment as soon as the money hits their hand, or from a high kill shelter that really can't afford to be too picky and are glad to have nearly anyone adopt a dog. Since my dogs are not in danger of being put down, I can afford to be picky about who gets them. There are plenty of people out there who DON'T mind my pickiness. As a matter of fact, most appreciate the fact that I stay in touch and are happy to have me involved. These are the kind of people I want for my animals... not folks who think it's too much hassle. When they have questions, it's ME they call. Apparently, plenty of people appreciate the fact that I take a lifelong interest in these dogs. My "rescue" consists of my husband and me and all we can do is make the best judgments we can based on what we feel is best. I'm not getting into the whole right or wrong thing (that's all a matter of perception), but it's what works for US and so far, only one adoption hasn't worked out and that's the dog I got back. The rest are doing wonderfully in their new homes. If it works, we aren't going to try to fix it. I'm sorry that it upsets some, but honestly my concern is more for the welfare of my dogs than for the hurt feelings of others. There are plenty of places to get dogs that will place a dog with anyone with the money. I don't understand why anyone would get upset with breeders or rescue groups who are choosy. Dogs are easy enough to get elsewhere. If the rules are bothersome, it's easy enough to choose not to agree and go elsewhere for a dog.

[quote name='kendalyn']I also have never had a fence. I could be off the mark here, but I've always thought it makes the dog more calm about being loose. My aunt and neighbors have fences. If one of those dogs gets out of the fence, you can forget about it coming to your call, you have to go get it. However, inside the fence, the dog's recall is good. I think they just get really excited or disoriented and run because they aren't used to being unconfined. I can trust Buck off leash almost anywhere. He knows not to run in the road and he comes very well when I call or whistle. It's almost like he knows that I trust him...[/quote] I don't know... only my back yard is fenced. The front is open. I can let almost any of them into the front yard and they'll come back. They don't run. The only exception is my Schnauzer who will bolt the minute he gets a chance. Perfect recall in the fence, sucks outside it. However, he was picked up a few years ago wandering on the side of the road, so un-instilling this behavior has been difficult. The other nine dogs, however, do not bolt when out of the fence. Our fence has been more of a luxury in the sense that we no longer HAVE to walk them. They are able to spend more time outside and get more exercise rather than just walked out to do their business and back inside. Since we have 10, luxurious strolls individually are not something we have the option of doing too often. Their one-on-one time is primarily inside in that they share our furniture, kitchen, bed and whatever. It's a trade-off, I suppose, but it's what works for us. I wouldn't expect it to work for everyone. All that to say that I don't necessarily believe that a fence automatically makes a dog suck at recall. I feel that a responsible owner would take time with their dogs to teach them how to behave outside the fence, as well as outside the house. A fence should not be used as a crutch to keep from socializing or training dogs. Nine out of the ten of my dogs have perfect recall ANYWHERE, fence or not.

I just realized something. I lied and didn't mean to. The first time I adopted out Devin, my foster Lhasa Apso, he did go to a home without a fence. He's the ONLY dog I adopted out to someone without a fence. I went against my own "rules" and did it, anyway, because it was otherwise a perfect home. Guess what happened? Doodoohead Devin escaped the guy's house by a means no one could have imagined. It was totally not the guy's fault and I didn't hold him responsible for Devin's escape since it was one of those weird things that no one could have imagined. However, the guy didn't have a fence and Devin was missing for two days before being reported found. Had there been a fence, Devin would have still escaped from the house, but at least the fence might have contained him and I wouldn't have had to spend two days agonizing over his whereabouts and condition. Again, to each's own. I never said for one minute that a fence is a requirement for someone to be a responsible owner. There are plenty of people who make it work without one. For years, we didn't have one and we also did the thing of walking several dogs at a time outside, all times of the day and night and in any kind of weather. However, I think people who do this are more the exception than the rule and even though someone could be well intentioned and agree to do it, I feel better knowing a fence is in place. All the screening in the world of potential adopters is no guarantee that they'll abide by any agreements or contracts set forth. That's exactly why I feel better to know that the dog is physically contained. It's not fool proof, either, but it makes me feel better. I don't plan on placing any more of my rescues with anyone without a fence. I don't like to say "never" in regard to what I will and won't do, but so far I haven't met anyone else I would make an exception for. I also don't adopt out to renters which has been another source of ill feelings for some. Each person, be it breeder or rescue worker, has to use their own judgment to do what they feel is best for animals they've made a lifetime commitment to. If it p*sses off a few people, it's all a part of the "job." There are no absolutes in breeding/rescue placement and all we can do is what we can do to be assured our babies have the best chance possible to live a long and healthy life in their new homes. If it means some potentially great people miss out on one of them, it's just one of the evils involved. What a lot of people fail to realize is that WE also make a lifetime commitment to these dogs. It doesn't end when they leave our physical care.

By the same token, I have to admit I'm not a breeder, but from a rescue standpoint, I've never placed one of my dogs in a home without an upright fence, or to outside only homes. Not that I don't think every owner without a fence is irresponsible, it just gives me a bit more assurance that IF and WHEN errors of judgment are made (as everyone will do... none of us are perfect), at least there's some containment. In other words, it just makes me feel better.

[quote name='kendalyn'][quote]Not going to obedience class, not giving the dog an outlet to use their brains, not establishing strong leadership thru training only causes problems down the road[/quote] I agree that dogs need to be able to think and go through training but I don't believe that obedience class is the only way to do this. I have been to an obediance class before and it was a terrible experience. Granted, there are good ones and bad ones and maybe this was a bad one. I really don't know. [/quote] I really have to agree here. Obedience [u]classes[/u] and obedience [u]training[/u] are not necessarily the same thing. I took one of my dogs through, of all things, a therapy dog training program (Delta Society) and it was the most horrific experience for him and me both. He was a rescue Lab and did great, but his "weakness" was pulling on leash. The "trainer" put a prong on him (not getting into the whole prong, to use or not to use debate), but my problem with it was that she was absolutely brutal. She would yank him off his feet or to the ground with it. In that one session, he went from a jolly, happy go lucky dog to a quivering, tail tucked, nervous wreck. I discontinued allowing that form of training (he ended up doing great, by the way... aced all tests and "recovered" nicely from his experience). Any one of my dogs could easily pass the CGC test and they were all trained at home. Socialization is achieved through taking them everywhere, work, errands, parks, social gatherings, when they are young, or first homed here (I actually primarily rescue adults... very few puppies). Since there is really no way to always be assured of what is and isn't a good obedience class, it's kind of moot, IMO, to mandate it UNLESS you have a particular trainer or program that is advocated which seems kind of hard to do for (other) people who ship their puppies hundreds or even thousands of miles away. Any way a breeder like you would sell to someone who has achieved CGC or therapy dog success through their own means without going through formal channels if all other required criteria were met?

KP, now you see why I don't have much company. I like it that way. :) I reckon the thing that really soured me is that my (ugh) sister in law showed up unexpectedly once (first no-no... I HATE unexpected, UNINVITED guests... she could have at least called first). Of course, my dogs (and cats) met her at the door, going berserk (all of them were pretty young at the time and still learning manners). This chick hopped up onto my brand freaking new furniture and went to doing the "ohmygawd make 'em go away, ew ew ew, shrieeeeeeeeeeek, I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would have so many animals!!!" dance. It p*ssed me off to the point that I changed my priorities and perspective. I just respect this now as my dogs' home and anyone else can kiss my posterior. If their space is that precious to them, they need to seek refuge elsewhere. :P To be honest, I'm kinda serious, but not as bad as I sound. I just hate rude, obnoxious, UNINVITED guests who waltz into my house and treat me as if I should be washing their feet at the door and breaking bread with them. I've pretty much weeded these folks out. Really, my only fairly regular guest now is someone who is just as happy to let all 10 dogs pile up on her (seriously... me- "here, let me put some of these guys in my bedroom..." her- "nooooo, don't you dare! They're glad to see me and I'm always glad to see them!"). Since she respects this as their home and acknowledges them, they greet her and then go lie down. Gawd, I love her. Then again, I'm not much of a people person. :oops: Just for the record, in public, where I do ALWAYS have 4 of the 10 with me (yes, in stores, offices, almost anywhere), the rules are different. Then THEY are in OTHERS' space and expected to behave so.

Behle! I've been thinking about you lately, wondering how you've been and where in blue blazes you were! I'm glad the guys are doing so great. I'm sorry to hear about Paisley. I recently acquired yet another rescue Standard Poodle, this time a girl, and I almost named her Paisley, but opted for another name as I knew your Paisley was one of a kind and didn't want that name to lose its "uniqueness." I'm truly sorry you had to lose such a special friend so soon after losing another. My thoughts are with you. I hope to see you around more!

[quote name='KP'] Either that or crate it or close it off in another room where other people never have to be bothered by it. [/quote] I feel a little differently. I feel that my dogs' comfort and happiness comes before that of anyone wishing to visit. If my dogs annoy people, my door swings both ways. It is my dogs' home as well as mine and I refuse to "punish" them for being dogs. Their manners are great individually, but having 10 in the house... well, sometimes they get a bit carried away :oops: . I can control them and call them down, but I still refuse to effectively punish them for being dogs. Then again, I don't have much company. :P Seriously, I do feel a little differently than a lot of people. I enjoy my dogs' company because they are, well, dogs and not children (which I don't have *shudder*). Each dog is taught basic obedience and manners, but they are still all individuals with their own personalities and I can appreciate that. I mean, they're not running loose, terrorizing the neighborhood and I don't let them just outright overwhelm anyone (jumping and lunging and all that, but that's not acceptable even where there are NO guests), but I really can't stand people who show up at my house acting disgusted and annoyed that there are (so many) dogs there. They are dogs. They are going to bark to announce your arrival, they are going to greet you at the door and they are going to run in circles until the initial greetings are over and then they'll go somewhere and lie down. The least my guests can do is acknowledge them and say hello, too. I reckon it's that attitude that makes me a lot more concerned with my dogs' comfort and happiness during visits than with guests'. The guests have their own homes to go to. My dogs live here. :) I have no idea what any of that had to do with whether or not I'm a responsible dog owner. Probably not by many folks' standards. :-?

Oh, I'll debate it! I swear all of mine lay in their beds at night thinking ways to torment me. From the pillow aiming projectile puker to the "let's carefully place this raggedy half chewed HARD toy in the dark hallway right in front of the bathroom door" monster to the never-does-it-any-other-time-except-in-public-in-plain-view public crotch sniffer. Oh yeah, I firmly believe they plan these things. :x

Something I read elsewhere that seemed like it might be a good idea was where someone said they were putting an x-pen around the tree as a barrier. It seemed like a good idea to me. However, I have TEN dogs in the house, some of them large, and have no intention of going through the headache of having a tree. I do have a little Charlie Brown tree that just sets on an end table and plugs into the wall, but it's so far isolated that no one can bother it without some effort.

We have designated mealtimes and they eat twice a day and usually a snack in between. The reason is because there are 10 dogs in the house and some are scarfers while others would never have a chance to eat. I don't see any way we could leave food down all the time for 10 dogs. Besides that, two of my five cats are on prescription diets for stone prevention and these two cats will eat the dog food if given the chance. Also, each dog is fed measured portions in their own bowls and they are all fed kenneled (even the two cats on prescription food are fed kenneled). This way, I can be sure each dog is eating the right amount with no one getting too much and no one going without. It's also good for me to be able to tell if one is a bit off their feed. I used to just put food out twice a day and give them a half hour to eat, but some of them were really getting fat because they would eat the entire time it was available. Feeding measured portions at designated times has worked out best for mine.

You know, I should have clarified my statement by saying the ones I've actually put my hands on had a stop underneath that hair. I know they are scissored in one long flowing line with no stop, but every one I ever put my hands on did not have a head (sans hair) like a Bull Terrier. While I've seen show Bedlingtons, I've never actually peeled through the hair to see if there was a stop on those (never really thought about it). The ones I've groomed personally were only pet Bedlingtons as opposed to showdogs and they did have a stop under the hair. Now I'm curious, too, as to whether there's not supposed to be a stop at all, or just not a visible stop... :-? I'll bet I can find out! I know just who to ask. If no one else has clarified it later, I'll check back in with what I find out. :wink:

Good grief! When you're done having your temper tantrum, maybe you can read back through some of these posts carefully and objectively. The way to respond to solicited advice is with "thank you." You asked, we answered. No one yelled at you. The advice is there to use or not use as you see fit, but don't come pitching a fit because it isn't what you wanted to hear. It's not all about being happy for YOU. Have you even stopped to consider that it's not all about YOU? Fine, I'm happy for YOU wanting another dog. I'm just not happy for the dog.

At first, I thought maybe they were just trying to play, so we tried to include them. It's hard to explain... my husband can wrestle and rough house with them all he wants and they are happy. He can play with me and they charge at him. Figuring they were playing, too, and it was a bluff, he charged back, just playing along (he thought) and, good grief, what'd did he want to go and do that for?! I nearly had to pull them off! They were dead serious and he had to talk them down. It's almost like they didn't even recognize him. :-? Maybe I just have stupid dogs. They sure wouldn't be the first. We have a regular Island of Misfits here. :-?

Ok, I'll toss my coupla pennies in there! :) My dogs, eight of whom have been here the entire time, have been on Wellness dry food for a bit over a year. They have all done wonderfully on it except for the couple who initially had really bad gas, but that passed (no pun intended). However, I have noticed that they do have a bit of plaque buildup, but it's not bad. I just had a 6 year old Chi's teeth cleaned last week for the first time and they were actually in pretty good shape... just needed a bit of scraping and polishing, but nothing dramatic. I thought it was really good for a small dog (notorious for dental problems) of that age who'd never had them scraped before. I guess my overall opinion in regard to Wellness and dental health is that their teeth are probably about the same as with anything else they've eaten. Certainly no worse.

Two of my Standard Poodles are believed to be littermates who were separated for a year or so and are now both living with me (they are four years old, neutered males). They are extremely bonded to each other and to me. They are also very social and well mannered. They don't mind pushy people, other dogs, loud noises... usually nothing seems to bother either of them. Except my husband. It took them a LOT longer to bond with him. Perry used to be aloof and would grumble in fear if my husband directly approached him and Pauly seemed downright terrified of him and would just cower. My husband is great with the dogs and works wonderfully with them and I know it's nothing he has done. Maybe it's the facial hair (he has a beard), or maybe someone in the kennel they came from looked like him and was aggravating, I dunno. Anyfreakinhoo, now they get along with my husband great. The thing is my husband and I like to play and rough house sometimes (yeah, so we're not THAT old :o )... tickle fights, wrestling and just other goofiness. Perry and Pauly, who I trust implicitly with strange children or anyone else and who have never shown ANY form of aggression to ANYONE else seriously try to attack him. They get between me and him and charge him and they mean it! Ok, I know THAT'S not a good thing and we certainly do not encourage it. They can always be called down and we don't reward that behavior. They are all friends afterward, but it's like if they think I'm threatened, they react. What I'm wondering is if they would do this if I were in public and a perfect stranger rushed me. I'm only curious. I mean, I'm not planning on hanging out in the bars with them and taunting passersby to find out, but I just wonder if these dogs would react the same way to someone who was indeed a real threat. I don't get it. They are so perfect with anyone. People can reach right into the car with them, anyone is welcomed into our home by them, they aren't territorial at all and put up with anything. They're Standard Poodles, for crying out loud! I have read that they can be very protective, but it's kind of tough wrapping my brain around that. Any insight from some of you behavioral minded types?

Good luck to Paddy. :)

Ya know, now that you point that out, I reckon I do! Kind of like a reverse Oreo cookie. I never even thought about it. :D