Horsefeathers!

Just my two cents... I don't have a problem with dew claws in general, but on heavily coated dogs where they may be "hidden" (Lhasas, Shihs, ones like that), I think that at least rear dew claws, particularly the floppy ones that just kind of dangle, should come off. They are too easily caught in combs, brushes, scissors and such and often easily form mats when owners aren't diligent (and not many people are going to carefully brush that area daily) and then it's a very painful and tedious job of trying to remove a mat from there, especially in such a heavily coated dog that makes it difficult to see the dew claw. I think it would be less painful in the long wrong to remove them. I had Devin's rear dew claws removed when he was neutered for just that reason, but left the front ones intact as they don't protrude and are really in no position to get caught on or in anything. At the time, he was just a foster and going to be adopted out and he was already very agitated whenever something would brush up against them as they had apparently been snagged at some point. I didn't want to risk having them snagged in a comb or brush by the new owner, or have them be bitten by Devin for inadvertently snagging them. Removing them has made Devin much more comfortable when handling his back feet. Where he used to pull and fuss when handling them, now he shows no discomfort or agitation. I'm kind of on the fence about cropping and docking. What I mean is I would never have it done to any of mine and I would love to see breed standards changed to accept dogs in their natural state. I actually love seeing the Poodles in foreign competitions with their natural tails, though they are still docked here. However, I'm really uncomfortable with often well meaning legislation when so many apparently unenforcable laws regarding animal cruelty and neglect already exist. I worry that, since so many people love the look of altered (docked/cropped) dogs, if it became illegal, they would only resort to doing it at home. Working inside a vet clinic, I've seen many, many dogs come through where the owners did tails and ears at home and it's a disturbing sight. If it became illegal, it would become even MORE common. If people are SO in love with the look, I reckon I feel the lesser of the evils is to still allow it to be done by qualified vets under sterile conditions and the benefit of anesthesia. I think it would be a much easier pill for the American public to swallow if the breed standards were changed to accept natural dogs. Then the public's perception of what looks good would perhaps slowly change to where it would no longer be considered acceptable.

Seriously, I know it may not have been the "right" thing to do and heaven knows I'll probably never do (or rather suggest) it again. I've never led my dogs by force. I've always been more of the benvolent leader. Fortunately, our situation has worked out well. Pauly and hubby are bonding and Pauly seems none the worse for wear. I swear, I probably would have slashed my own wrists if that dog had come out of this a nervous wreck, or had "shut down" and I'm so glad he didn't (whew, SO glad). No, he is back to his bouncy, fun self without the challenging and without the head butting. What's weird is that he no longer seems uncomfortable around my husband and happily bounces behind him, eagerly awaiting his "chore" (he's still in boot camp and earns every privilege or morsel of food). Wazzup wit' dat? Hubby putting smackdown (figuratively) = happy dog. Oh well... :-?

[quote name='Cassie']why would any one do some thing as stupid as pinning a dog down and trying to do an "Alpha roll"??? [/quote] [img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDPApQf30LWpLbhXWCnAkR5hUs6yHFEBZEQsenMMq*dvDIbnGPBZb0mA41gN6T5!re8JBdqqnWZ7aPuaevdKr479ir8Ru!X2dB5UmvdyHKZ72ZOsMdSaFrnQ9oM06gYTyU8d7i8gNXVSoxi1IeiWA/smiley%20lurk.gif?dc=4675441322264543506[/img] :oops: [img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQAYA30fCTuPoHbo*VO*k6YkVsjsui1KYGfqoPb3PGet0mEYsc71EksSfApXuugKjHdt1Ms4!cD27pQV8nrn8bVQYA63*5bFYmu10qt!fnEFjGXFux8IPISJwCgOKMIlpMK2vLtVcc62Nhp!EgrdAA/crying%20girl.gif?dc=4675436072349453090[/img]

[quote name='courtnek'] Pauly is like 8 months old. [/quote] Actually, Pauly is 4 years old, having only been with us for 4 months. I don't know if it matters, but sorry if I said it wrong somewhere. :oops: Also, I recently came across this (not so) little tidbit on another forum. Great. Now I discover I've ruined my dog's psyche :cry: !! Seriously, the more I'm reading and learning, the more overwhelmed I am. I've never had the problems I've had in the past year. My dogs have always excelled in obedience and we've never had any of our dogs buck up on us until recently. I'm just about ready to hand over their leashes and bowls to someone more fit!! :cry: :cry: Anyway, here's the not-so-little something I was referring to. It deals with dominance issues and positive training and the like. I've always preferred to take a benevolent leader approach and it's always worked well... until recently (even though it wasn't [u]me[/u] having problems with Pauly). ====================================== The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory Note: The information in the following article came from an interview with Dr. Ian Dunbar, who spent nine years studying the social behavior of dogs during the study mentioned below. In an earlier version of this article, Dr. L. David Mech was credited with the 30-year study. This was a mistake. The researcher who conducted the study was Dr. Frank Beach. An effort has been made to correct this error. However, if you know of a place where the original article was published, please notify the editor and request a correction. The original alpha/dominance model was born out of short-term studies of wolf packs done in the 1940s. These were the first studies of their kind. These studies were a good start, but later research has essentially disproved most of the findings. There were three major flaws in these studies: These were short-term studies, so the researchers concentrated on the most obvious, overt parts of wolf life, such as hunting. The studies are therefore unrepresentative -- drawing conclusions about "wolf behavior" based on about 1% of wolf life. The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model" comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos. For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary. A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs? . Finally, after the studies, the researchers made cavalier extrapolations from wolf-dog, dog-dog, and dog-human based on their "findings." Unfortunately, this nonsense still abounds. So what's the truth? The truth is dogs aren't wolves. Honestly, when you take into account the number of generations past, saying "I want to learn how to interact with my dog so I'll learn from the wolves" makes about as much sense as saying, "I want to improve my parenting -- let's see how the chimps do it!" Dr. Frank Beach performed a 30-year study on dogs at Yale and UC Berkeley. Nineteen years of the study was devoted to social behavior of a dog pack. (Not a wolf pack. A DOG pack.) Some of his findings: Male dogs have a rigid hierarchy. Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable. When you mix the sexes, the rules get mixed up. Males try to follow their constitution, but the females have "amendments." Young puppies have what's called "puppy license." Basically, that license to do most anything. Bitches are more tolerant of puppy license than males are. The puppy license is revoked at approximately four months of age. At that time, the older middle-ranked dogs literally give the puppy hell -- psychologically torturing it until it offers all of the appropriate appeasement behaviors and takes its place at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The top-ranked dogs ignore the whole thing. There is NO physical domination. Everything is accomplished through psychological harassment. It's all ritualistic. A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed. No one likes a dictator. The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because... Middle-ranked animals squabble. They are insecure in their positions and want to advance over other middle-ranked animals. Low-ranked animals do not squabble. They know they would lose. They know their position, and they accept it. "Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail to physically dominate. But they have earned the right to control the valued resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he simply couldn't care less. So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship? Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble. To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, *you* are alpha by definition. Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the "revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women, elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog. Very few people are capable of physical domination. Reward deferential behavior, rather than pushy behavior. I have two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention, the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated. Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy. Your job is to be a leader, not a boss, not a dictator. Leadership is a huge responsibility. Your job is to provide for all of your dog's needs... food, water, vet care, social needs, security, etc. If you fail to provide what your dog needs, your dog will try to satisfy those needs on his own. In a recent article in the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) newsletter, Dr. Ray Coppinger -- a biology professor at Hampshire College, co-founder of the Livestock Guarding Dog Project, author of several books including Dogs : A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution; and an extremely well-respected member of the dog training community -- says in regards to the dominance model (and alpha rolling)... "I cannot think of many learning situations where I want my learning dogs responding with fear and lack of motion. I never want my animals to be thinking social hierarchy. Once they do, they will be spending their time trying to figure out how to move up in the hierarchy." That pretty much sums it up, don't you think? Melissa Alexander

So that's an alpha roll, huh? I never even thought about it... :-? At the time, it was the only way to get Pauly under control. Hubby had to virtually lay on top of him until he gave up the lunging and growling. I'm glad it worked on ours. There's no way I would attempt it on something like an Akita or Chow (though I am admittedly somewhat afraid of these breeds). My dog was simply being a butthead, for sure. Trying to win him over with treats/praise/diversion resulted in my husband getting bitten. Putting the smackdown on the dog (figuratively) made him "see the light." Then again, we were kind of winging it... :oops: One reason I don't seek out a trainer in our area is because the ones I've found believe in the ol' choke 'em, yank 'em, smack 'em around, knock 'em down, show 'em who's boss methods of training and I just don't want to do that to a dog who is simply butting heads, but not a real threat (I believe). Flipping him over and diving on top of him was a last resort and, to be honest, was only because my husband didn't want to give him the chance to bite him again. By the time he got off him, he had a leash securely around his neck enough to be able to hold him at a distance if need be, but by then Pauly was virtually saying, "Yes, sir!" I'm STILL interested in seeing someone come forward with a purely positive method of handling aggressive or somewhat dominant dogs. I prefer to use as humane and positive methods as possible. I've never, ever used any negative training with obedience... it's always positive. There is no punishment for not getting it right; no manhandling, no yanking, no pulling, none of that. However, when trying to bite, it's a whole 'nuther game.

I'll be really interested in this, too. In dealing with one of my own recently, we tried purely positive and it resulted in someone getting bitten. Putting the smackdown (figuratively speaking) on him, however, worked wonderfully. Keep in mind, I am talking about handling aggression and not any kind of obedience ("Sit, or I'll whack ya!!"). (Disclaimer) I'm no professional, but I do believe that nothing is perfect for every dog and while some may do well with purely positive, I believe that cause/effect, action/consequences have their place in dealing with aggression. With mine, it took severe consequences of his lashing out to reassert his position within our home. Severe meaning he was swiftly "apprehended" by sweeping his feet out from under him and pinning him down on his back. No beating, smacking or any of that. I realize that this may be a stupid thing to do with a severely aggressive dog, or with a really dominant breed, but it worked for our Standard Poodle. He has only been here four months and came from a rescue. I reckon he'd decided it was time to crown himself king of this castle. To be honest, I was really uncomfortable with having to put the smackdown on him (again, figuratively), so I am really interested in seeing how others deal with aggression using purely positive methods. Mine had to be "punished" to get it.

Just a little update... Things are going well. Pauly is adjusting to his new rank and has a newfound respect for my husband. There is still the occasional dispute, but it's nothing like it was and we are able to handle it. Pauly is a smart dog and learns quickly. I'm just glad he isn't snappy and shy by nature. I mean, he's a wonderful companion and is great in public; he had just gotten a bit too big for his britches (as we say around here). He will soon be earning back privileges. He (along with the rest of the P gang) usually accompanies me whenever I leave the house. Pauly hasn't left the house in over a week... a BIG disappointment for him, especially when he sees the other dogs still able to leave with me and he's stuck at home. The light has gone on and he's making the connection on how great life can be, or how much it can suck. Still working on it, but things are getting back to normal and Pauly is settling down. Thanks for the input. :)

Or you could try what works for mine. Just put it somewhere and dare her to touch it. Threaten to behead her if she as much as looks at it. Around here, those tactics pretty much guarantee that my gang will fall all over each other to claim it as their own. Either way, good luck. :D

Cassie, I'm not trying to be argumentative. :) My frustration, though I do try to keep it in check and not seem so defensive (not always successful) comes from being in a very unpopular minority in some places... not necessarily here. When I began this thread, I had been reading several posts here that would address every single problem, whether it be behavioral or physical with, "hey, BARF will fix that... all your dog needs is a natural raw diet!!" with no further consideration of the dog perhaps needing to be examined. No offense was taken or intended. :)

[quote]Funny, Wolves have been around for millions of years...they have survived eating raw meat, bones etc....[/quote] So have humans, but why is the same argument never used to promote raw feeding in humans? Using this logic, it would be the "natural" thing to do. With all due respect, it's worth the extra effort to me to cook any meat my dogs eat since cooking at normal household temperatures (NOT rendering and extrusion) is not proven to dramatically affect nutrients. Humans also ate raw meat for millions of years, but I'm not going to do it for the sake of being "all natural." I just don't buy the argument from many enthusiasts that the only dogs who don't do well on BARF are ones where the owners failed. While this may be so in some cases, it's naive to blindly assume they ALL did it wrong (how many ways are there to throw a raw chicken carcass at a dog?). I also am not swayed by those who have fed garbage for a gazillion years and never had any problem. It's like saying I've been driving for forty years and never had an accident, so if someone t-bones another driver and kills them, it's their fault since [u]I[/u] never had a problem. I can't wrap my brain around that logic. I work inside a vet clinic, too, in a really rural area and it's not uncommon to see dogs come through who have eaten chickens they killed themselves and STILL got bones lodged. How much more natural can that diet be? Heck, it happened to one of our own vet techs... his dog killed one of his chickens and ate it and was one very ill dog. Also, I see over and over that a dog with a HEALTHY immune system should not have a problem on BARF. This may or may not be so, BUT also the major BARF proponents say that BARF is the best way to promote a healthy immune system. A real catch 22. Which is it? Do you give it to a compromised dog to make them healthier, or no? It depends on who you ask. Again, to each's own. I'm just not convinced. It's still worth the extra effort to me to cook any meat since cooking at regular household temperatures isn't going to hurt a thing. Where people are swindled on the whole bit about cooking affecting nutrition is that people aren't cooking at home at the same temperatures used in rendering and extrusion. Big difference. Sure, nothing is fail safe (well, of course), but I like the odds in my favor and none of my dogs will ever be given raw meat again if I can help it, nor will they receive bones. If it's so natural and good for them, I say stop the overuse of the supplements used in these diets that were also never found in the wild. Yogurt, seaweed this, extract that... none of this is part of a "natural" diet as wolves or wild dogs would never "naturally" be eating this.

[quote name='courtnek']and I said, 'go ahead, and when it is proven she is NOT...I will take you to to court on HARRASSMENT charges..and DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER!" he stumbled down the sidewalk, muttering...and I calld the police. In THIS state, he is a danger to himself and others... :drinking:[/quote] Well, maybe he's spending the night in the drunk tank. Where on earth do you live that is home to so many dog ignorant loonies? Girl, you've had quite a time with people. It's like you have some sort of beacon that they just home in on. I wouldn't worry too much about this guy. He can say whatever he wants. Think about it like this.... if he's that big a lunatic, not too many people are likely to take him seriously and those who do aren't really worth worrying about. Chances are he won't even remember it in the morning.

Thanks a bunch! :) What's weird is that I know all this stuff about pack mentality, but I still ignored the red flags only because I didn't think THIS dog had it in him. Boy, is my face red :oops: ! It helps having forums like this where people can offer me my own reality checks. I genuinely thought of Pauly as only being afraid of my husband, but the more we deal with this, the more we realize he IS confrontational, though it may be tempered with a bit of fear. I'm just taken aback. Pauly? It just blows me away. That's why I say it just serves as a reminder to me that dogs are dogs and ANY of them can pick up ugly habits if an owner (me) is oblivious to the signs because "he's always been such a good dog." Just in the last couple of days, things are going remarkably well. After Pauly bit my husband, we resorted to just putting the smackdown on him, so to speak. Probably not the politically correct thing to do, but biting is not ok. We haven't scruffed him, but mainly because Pauly is a pretty big boy and scruffing him would be futile. There have been a couple of showdowns where Pauly confronted my husband with his teeth and my husband quickly took him down. He quickly managed to get under his chin where Pauly couldn't grab him, swiped his feet out from under him and flipped him on his back while diving on top of him and pinning him down until he gave it up. All in one swift move. Plus I have become more involved. In hindsight, this seems so stupid, but I was really trying to stay out of it because I thought it would be the wise thing to do to let my husband handle Pauly. DOH! Now I vigorously "defend" my husband when Pauly bucks up on him. Pauly never, ever, ever challenges ME and will do anything to please me. It's helped Pauly see the light since I, in no uncertain terms, show him my displeasure. It's basically Pauly boot camp around here. When he acts out (aggression only), he is given a swift reality check. When he behaves, life is great for him. Hubby is still handling all the meals, treats, training. We truly don't want Pauly to fear either of us... just respect. The coolest thing is that Pauly is following my husband around like a little puppy. He seems to be genuinely trying to bond with him. So far, (thank doG), Pauly isn't "broken" and afraid of us. To be honest, I was afraid that any show of force would just make him afraid and nervous and I would nearly rather die than have one of my dogs fear me, or be hand shy. He is not and he actually seems to be more content to have clearly defined boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not. I'm sure it's still not over. Bad habits take a while to learn and a while to unlearn, I reckon. Still, there is marked progress. I just still can't get over the fact that I'm so well aware of how packs work, but missed all the red flags in one of my own. I just never would have thought he had it in him. Lesson learned. :oops: This is something I've seen debated over and over in many places, but I am convinced that not EVERY problem dog can be handled SOLELY through positive training. I believe punishment and consequences have their place. I almost hate to publicly admit that.

Thanks, courtnek. :) Pauly never ever ever offers to get onto the bed or onto any of the furniture. As a matter of fact, he prefers to never leave the floor (Perry, on the other hand, doesn't realize that it's perfectly ok for a dog to lie on the floor :oops: ). I'm still puzzled as to why this behavior began and escalated so quickly. For four months, Pauly has been the most jovial, loving dog and, though he seemed uncomfortable around my husband at times, he was more timid around him rather than confrontational. Perhaps I just overlooked some very important early signs and unknowingly let it escalate to this point. I definitely agree that Pauly is jealous of my husband. He can't stand it when my husband plays with Perry, or with me. It makes Pauly nuts. I believe Goo was right about Pauly considering Perry his personal property. The good news (tentatively) is that the "reality check" last night seems to have made a difference. The day is about over and Pauly and hubby have been coexisting peacefully. I think it made a huge impact that I so strongly "defended" my husband when Pauly bit him last night. Also, (not saying this was the right way or wrong way to handle this, but...) my husband retaliating so (what's the word I'm looking for here) [u]vigorously[/u] seems to have helped Pauly "see the light." Again, I'm sure it isn't over, but it looks like we've made a definite start. I'm still using a lot of Goo's great advice (hubby doing all the feeding, training sessions and such) and I think we're going to get through this. I suppose it's our fault for not recognizing where it was heading. Pauly is such a sweet goofball that I never would have thought he had it in him. I reckon it's a good reminder that, no matter how experienced you are and how well you treat them, they are still dogs and any dog can pick up some very ooooooogly habits if you don't heed the warnings. I can't believe I let this get by me. Lesson learned. :-? Anyway, thanks for all the great advice. I'm feeling a little more optimistic now. :)

[quote name='Mei-Mei']Does your husband wear a beard or a mustache or anything like that? :-?[/quote] Actually, he does have a beard and mustache and glasses. I've thought about that and don't know if one or a combination of those things might be bothering him. The vet tech at our clinic that Pauly has been lunging at also has a mustache and glasses. We would love for hubby to be able to clip it off to see if it makes a difference, but the reason he has it is because he has never been able to shave or use any kind of hair remover without breaking out (to the point of scabbing) all over his face and neck. He keeps it trimmed very short, but he can't clip it all off. I hope Pauly just learns to deal with hubby just the way he is. So far, today is going better. Of course, it's only today, but I reckon all we can do is take this one day at a time. Since Pauly is being a good boy today, life is good for him today. He's gotten treats, affection and some positive training. Maybe he'll make the connection. :)

Thanks for the encouragement. We aren't giving up. It would be different if we didn't see consistency or hope. Pauly is very outgoing and very well mannered in public and, until recently, usually at home. He's not typically snappy and shy. There's just something about my husband and some other men. According to the rescue lady, she recently learned of some information which suggests that Pauly (and others who came from that kennel) have a reason to fear men. That gives us hope just having something to work with. We both love him to pieces because he is USUALLY the most fun, outgoing, clownish dog there ever was. However, ignoring his displays have only made them worse. It started with that lunging from behind and we just kind of brushed it off. Actually, we used to think he was playing until he started the lip curling and growling. Apparently, we "approved" of his behavior because we didn't stop it. I don't think hope is lost. This is not going to earn me any popularity points (then again, apparently not many people are visiting this thread... it admittedly p*sses me off to see others on other parts of this forum arguing their qualifications of how much they know about handling aggressive dogs, but don't bother to come here and offer any insight), but we are handling Pauly in a more ummm proactive sort of way. I've begun LOUDLY and VEHEMENTLY expressing my disapproval at Pauly's behavior toward my husband (since Pauly is soooooo mine, he hates me to be upset with him) and "defending" my husband "against" Pauly. Hubby is still making Pauly earn every single morsel of food or treats he gets. However, flipping that bugger on his back and pinning him down has seemed to work the best. Pauly sulked all last night, but is now following my husband everywhere and is actually trying to figure out how to "please" him. He's coming to him when called, he's sitting when told and he's looking toward my husband to see what he wants. Who knew? Apparently, we weren't beating him right (ok, figuratively speaking... kind of). I'm sure it's not over, but Pauly is learning quickly that life will go much better for him if he keeps his teeth in his head and out of my husband's skin.

Oh well... we'll just keep trying until we find something that works. Hubby diving on Pauly's head and flipping him over seems to have worked wonders for that attitude... at least for tonight. Dunno about longterm, though. We were certainly trying to avoid strongarm tactics, but biting is NOT ok. Fear, we'll try to deal with. When it came to actually drawing blood, all bets were off and this boy is going to get a good lesson in how NOT to behave. This dog is going to undergo some rigorous boot camp. I can put up with a lot... tear up my windows, chew up my plants, dig up my flowers, bark bark bark bark at every squirrel that passes the front window, but I will not tolerate biting. Whatever it takes.

Well, it just got oooooooogly. Despite the treats and feeding and sitting/staying and efforts, Pauly just bit the crap out of my husband when he tried to slip a leash on him. Blood everywhere, it was a pretty nasty bite. :(

DP, I can "vouch" for Elan as well. She is legit.

For the record, I used to be the biggest mouth here in regard to dog fighting. Hmmm and I went round and round and round about it. I compare people who fight their dogs and claim to love them to pedophiles, rapists and murderers... also people who often claim to love their victims. Anyway, some of you who are pitching the biggest fits about condoning it were not around when some of the rest of us were the biggest, most outspoken opponents. Until this post, I have kept my opinions to myself only because, in the past, I was pm'd and asked to keep myself in check (so to speak). The whole point of this is to say that I do not support dog fighting; I am vehemently and adamantly opposed to it, but do not take my silence as condoning anything. I do not climb into bed with the enemy (meaning you will never see me engaging in idle chit chat with those I do not respect), but I do not necessarily confront them. This is not my board and I do not make the rules. All I can do is what is asked of me if I choose to remain a member here and I respect management enough, if not those I disagree with, to adhere to their rules. I choose my battles carefully and I prefer to make a difference more in the REAL world, the environment physically surrounding me where I can make a marked difference, rather than be a message board hero. Anyone can talk a good game. Since we're just "being honest" and telling it like it is, I also don't have much use for people who make a dramatic announcement of how they're going to leave because they are on so much of a higher moral and ethical pedestal than the rest of us, yet they stick around to banter it about while others *groan* try to convince them of how wrong about us they are. If you're not happy here, just don't post again and go about your business. No drama, no hurt feelings and life goes on. I choose to stay and don't care who it p*sses off if they wish to believe we condone dog fighting only because they haven't been here long enough to see how many times many of us have had this battle. Instead of crying about it, DO something, or offer something constructive WE can do if you have anything of value to share. Clear enough, or do I still sound a bit uncertain of my position?

One other thing? Hubby just mentioned to me that he NEVER has a problem with Pauly when they are alone (minus me). He said Pauly is perfectly compliant whenever I'm not around. Apparently, I'm somehow the problem. Pauly never, ever, ever has shown any discomfort around me and I've never done anything (knowingly) to encourage his episodes toward my husband. I've never laughed it off as cute, or thought it was funny that Pauly seemed so possessive of me. Now I need to know what [u]I[/u] need to do differently. We are already letting hubby handle feeding/training. Do I need to verbally "defend" my husband when Pauly acts out? Do you think my loud disapproval would help Pauly stop challenging him, or do I just butt out? :-?

Thanks, goo. You've offered some excellent insight and I am very optimistic. We are going to just keep plugging away until hopefully Pauly decides hubby doesn't remind him of whoever it is he doesn't like. Apparently, several of the dogs that came from the kennel Pauly came from are suffering with similar issues (I just learned this last night). At least it helps knowing that it may be something we can help. I am a bit overreactive and worried since the problems we dealt with with our Penny who couldn't be helped. Thanks again!

If it makes you feel any better, MOST of us here are just regular ol' dog owners as well. We are not all professionals and this is not a professional dog trainers' board. We have all sorts of people here ranging from behaviorists to just plain ol' ordinary dog owners (like me) who may have something to offer and still much to learn. Many of us have learned some of these lessons the hard way. I'm dealing successfully right now with aggression issues in a little Lhasa Apso foster I had adopted out and repossessed because someone thought it was cute to spoil him and he became a monster. With a bit of boot camp (pretty similar to the methods Courtnek described above), he has improved dramatically. He, too, had bitten a child in the face in his adoptive home because they encouraged snappy behavior and dismissed it as being cute until it wasn't anymore (that's when I "repossessed" him). Now I'm dealing with fear/aggression directed toward men with another one of my rescues. I've received some valuable information here and from other sources that I hope will help this dog through this (he appears to be afraid of men and it is manifesting itself through some aggression). Actually, this has been a rotten year for me in dealing with dogs' aggression. I've been owning and training (my own) dogs for most of my life and grooming professionally for nearly 5 years. I've never had a time with aggression as I've had this year with some of my dogs (a permanent rescue resident who is afraid of men, a foster that was spoiled rotten as a cute little dog, and one of my original own who could not be trained/behaviorist handled/examined/medicated/natural dieted enough to help her overcome her violent outbursts of aggression...sometimes it's neurological or some flaw that can't be helped and since there are no mental institutions for dogs... anyway, I digress). I've learned a lot here. All this is to say that we are not a board of professionals, though some do hang out and offer what they can. We're just a board of regular dog owners learning and sharing what works for us and what we've learned. There is no "people like you" vs. "people like us." I second Judy's suggestion of having the dog checked thoroughly, not just an exam, but bloodwork and a full thyroid panel, as well as checking for any pain. Also, ask the vet to check the dog's eyesight and hearing. Along with pain, diminished eyesight and/or hearing can lead to aggression problems. Good luck and I hope you do continue to be one of "us." :)

Goo, a lot of that really does make good sense. :) I like the idea of my husband keeping treats on him at all times and the idea of feeding him just a bit at a time, making him "work" for it. However, I'm still having a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea of Pauly being a dominant personality. I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but Pauly seems genuinely afraid of my husband, like he's trying to make him back off rather than challenge him. Until now, he would mostly try to avoid any confrontation with him. Now it's like he's standing his ground (I guess maybe he is actually TRYING to become dominant? My mind is imploding, trying to rationalize any of this behavior). A lot of times, Pauly will "rush" at my husband from behind as he (husband) turns to walk away, but won't do it when facing him. We don't know if my husband should turn back to confront him and make him back down, or ignore him. :-? I got an email back from my rescue contact and she did say that she has recently discovered some information that suggests some of these dogs have a reason to fear men. Apparently, it's not just Pauly. That helps knowing that, but it's still going to be a bugger figuring out how to handle it (firmness tempered with compassion). Thanks for the insight. A lot of that really does make sense. I hadn't even considered that Pauly would think of Perry as his own, but it makes perfect sense. The two are together (with me) 24/7. I did know that Pauly is extremely possessive of me (Perry a bit, also), but I have conscientiously been working on not tolerating that behavior (freaking out when hubby and I play fight, or tussle). Also, we'll try the advice of doling out Pauly's meals into training sessions. Goo, you da bomb!

Someone's gotta tell me what to do about Pauly. This is so hard to explain, but I'll try. Pauly is the second Standard Poodle rescue I got... about 4 months ago. He has done so well fitting in here, but he has always been afraid of my husband. He gets along well with him most of the time unless my husband tries to approach him when he doesn't want to be approached, like trying to get him to go outside. Most of the time, Pauly will slink away from my husband, or run from him, but he's becoming increasingly agitated. He has begun standing his ground and snarling and raising his lip. It's weird... Pauly doesn't have territorial issues. He isn't territorial in the car, in the yard, or in the house. There's just something about my husband and men in general that he doesn't like. It's not ALL men... just SOME men (he's been giving fits to one of our vet techs, too). I don't know what to do. Pauly will do anything for me and is the best mannered, socialized dog there is. I can go anywhere with him. We aren't sure how to handle this. Since the problem is that Pauly seems to be reacting from fear, does my husband need to coddle Pauly more, or put the smackdown (figuratively... not literally) on him? We are doing basic Pauly boot camp. Everything good is coming from my husband. All food, snacks, anything. Also, my husband is spending more and more one on one time with him. It's still not helping. He seems to adore my husband SOMETIMES until my husband approaches him at a time he doesn't want to be approached. I don't know if this means anything, but Pauly also gets extremely upset and agitated when my husband is playing with Perry (the first Standard). It's like he thinks my husband is a threat. He has never done anything to make Pauly afraid of him and we don't know how to make him more comfortable. Since it's not blatant aggression, or territorial issues, I don't know how to "demote" him. He doesn't challenge when you take things from him, he's not into butting heads. What to do? Last night, it looked as if Pauly might seriously try to bite my husband. He stood his ground and he looked like he meant it, lip curled, snarling, hackles raised. Admittedly, my husband was startled which probably only made it worse. We don't know whether to be really really stern and tell him to knock it off, or to try harder to make him more comfortable (which makes me wonder if that wouldn't be rewarding the snarling and lip raising). [u]Good[/u] trainers in my area are in short supply (they all seem to favor the "whack 'em, smack 'em, put a prong collar and yank 'em around and show 'em who's boss" methods of training which I don't really want to do to a dog who's already afraid) and besides, Pauly's obedience is fine. He is easily trainable. The behaviorist I was working with on Penny has since moved on, so I'm kind of on my own. I've fired off an email to the rescue contact he came from to see if she can shed some light or tell me what I need to do. I don't want Pauly and my husband to be afraid of each other and I don't know anything about Pauly's past as far as what could make him behave the way he does. Help? :(

Yeah, like me. This is the answer to all my prayers! Hallelujah! You don't know how sick and tired I am of my neighbors staying up all hours of the night barking! They objected to the shock collars and spray bottles had little effect, so I'm sure this will go much better. :-?