Horsefeathers!

Oh, I've also heard of people using vanilla to mask the scent of a bitch in heat.

The cheapest poochie panties I ever used on any of mine in the past were just a plain pair of boys' undies (the ones with the flap open fly). If you put a panty liner in them and turn them around backward, the tail sticks out through the fly. They fit perfectly and are very cheap (to me, those poochie panties are ridiculously expensive considering the way they're made, or maybe I'm just a tightwad). At the time, my bitches were sporting Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles pooch panties. :oops: My bitches all had at least one heat cycle before being spayed.

Thanks, everyone. Y'all are just so great. :kciuki:

Just an update... We have decided it is best to let Penny go. We've talked and thought and talked some more. Penny has never turned anything on that ever turned off, if that makes sense. When she started her "episodes," it was with Tucker, our Lab, whom she is closest to of all. I started reading and researching and realized it was about the time Tucker was going lame and consequently had hip surgery. Anyway, I had read that dogs will sometimes "cull" out weaker members of the pack, so I accepted that and became more diligent. She NEVER bothered the smaller dogs. Then I had to pull my Peanut (Toy Poodle) out of her mouth one night. So I read that same sex aggression was common. Oh well, she NEVER bothered any of the small male dogs. Then she jumped Goober, sending him into that last seizure from which he never recovered. Oh well, at least she NEVER bothers the cats. Wrong again... she started going after one cat in particular. Still, it's all animal aggression and I accepted it as that and was diligent in trying to maintain a safe environment for all involved. Oh well, at least she had NEVER shown any aggression to either of us. Now I'm wrong again. Again, once Penny turns on, she doesn't turn off and she also doesn't bluff. Whether I'm right or wrong, or it makes me a bastard for "giving up," I can not in good faith continue to live like this and now wonder how long before she goes after me. And she would eventually. She has never "turned off" once she "turns on." Maybe I'm naive, but I still don't blame the Pit Bull in her and have no problem with the breed. I mean, I accept that as the contributing factor to her animal aggression, but I honestly believe that Penny has a screw loose somewhere that we just aren't able to fix. I do now believe she is a valid threat and not to be trusted. It wasn't just the snarl, per se. Plenty of my other dogs have grumbled and complained. It's the fact that Penny means it and is extremely violent with her outbursts when they DO finally occur. Penny shoots to kill, so to speak. So I'm off to the vet this morning to make that final drive with her. My heart is heavy, my throat is tight and I've been up all night thinking this through. I still love her, but I honestly don't think SHE can be happy, either, living this way. It's like she is always on her guard TRYING to behave, but then it's like she just can't help herself. God, I hate this. Anyway, that's the lowdown. I may be right or wrong, but I don't know what else I can do. I will stay with her and hold her until the end and then she will be cremated and her ashes spread under her favorite tree (the one where the squirrel runs down and gives her the middle finger and she goes nuts... she and that squirrel have quite a thing going... I honestly believe that squirrel will miss her). She never could find peace in this life... maybe she will find it in the next. :cry:

:( :( :( [img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XwDmAskeYO*0vJNl7uYxMg3FuXoL04rALdTz8BbVX0WonOQH2UC28iAc8P8IXmtUkN*lWy0oq1ZJCq9szMPt0e*qU6zHjq5RMUZtIoQi5nAP*pP*feF0ZHcyqCM5YJTIZvV8qcHX8Xs/Penny%20ears.jpg?dc=4675383177158648998[/img]

[quote name='K']...How old is Penny now?[/quote] [quote name='ThePoutyPitbull']If I remember correctly Penny is part Pit bull correct? How old is she?? [/quote] Sorry, I forgot to answer this before. Penny will be 5 years old in January and we've had her all her life, since she was 4-5 weeks old. Penny is a Pit Bull/Boxer cross... primarily Pit, I reckon, as the mother was only half Boxer herself. Penny did sort of "turn on" at about the age of two, but it didn't seem TOO serious at the time (hindsight, however, is 20/20). I did do a lot of reading and started learning that this was normal in Pits and that animal aggression is to be expected. Truth be told, I am sure I would never have adopted Penny had I known then what I know now about Pit Bulls (only because I always have a multi-pet household and a lot of fosters also come and go... I've had to turn down many female fosters because of Penny), but at the time, she was simply a puppy who desperately needed a home. Also, at that time, I was still believing that dogs were solely products of their environments and upbringing. You know, that whole "raise 'em right and they'll be ok" thing. It's only been recently, because of Penny and the consequent research, that I've discovered otherwise and that's a hard pill to swallow. When her behavior started changing, we did go through multiple vet exams, bloodwork, thyroid checks, and some xrays just to be sure she wasn't ill or in pain. That has been about two years ago. She is on medication to help keep her a bit more mellow. Also, just this year, we have worked with a behavior oriented vet who has been unbelievable with the resources she's offered in regard to Pit Bulls and their temperaments. Anyway, that's just a little background for those who haven't been familiar with the whole Penny saga. One more thing that I worry about... since Penny is so unpredictable, she spends a lot of time in her kennel. She eats there, she sleeps there and she must be there any time she can't be physically monitored. I am wondering how fair it is to her for her to have to live out her life in a kennel because she can't be trusted. We've tried to keep her as much a part of the family as possible by getting as huge a kennel as possible and putting it in the middle of the living room so that she isn't banished away to solitary confinement, but still... Also, she doesn't even have the luxury of bedding. She sleeps on the cold tray because she can't have bedding. She shreds it and eats it. It wouldn't bother me except that she started developing bronchitis from coughing up the bedding. Also, there is the danger of blockages. [quote name='courtnek']You have to ask yourself a couple of hard questions.... Do YOU now feel safe around her, after she threatened you? Do you still feel you can control her, and make her obey you promptly? Do you feel angry at her behaviour, or afraid of it? [/quote] I don't feel UNsafe, but I no longer trust her, if that makes sense. I mean, I'm not avoiding her, but still... I do still feel I can control her. I've been able to simply tell her today to get off the couch and she respectfully complied. However, I'm now too chicken to actually try to MAKE her move had she not. That never worried me before. Not so much angry, a little afraid, yes, but mostly hurt. :( Thanks, all, for trying to help me out. I'm truly at my wits' end. Also, thanks for the link, TPP.

Well, after a night of tossing and turning on the couch (I never even went to bed), I'm glad to report that I'm just as confused and indecisive as before. This is eating me up. Of course, Penny stopped by this morning, put her head on my chest and said good morning to me like she always does. Bless her little heart, I do love the girl. I want to offer more insight into my feelings toward Penny. I don't know if I ever shared this here before, but I don't think so. Some of you remember when my beloved Goober died last year. He was very old, dilapidated, deaf, nearly blind, senile, was having seizures and had fallen very ill. Truth be told, he outlived everyone's expectations. Anyway, the final episode where we had to let Goober go, Penny was involved. She was asleep near me and Goober blundered into her. She came up in a fury of teeth and flying fur (keep in mind that Goober weighed 4 lbs and was very frail) and that sent him into that last, final seizure from which he never recovered. I agonize over that every day. I don't know if I was angrier with Penny or with myself. I have never gotten over the fact that we were so conscientious about keeping Goober safe, warm and loved during the autumn of his life (he was a rescue who had apparently had a VERY hard life, based on the condition he was in). I have never been able to get over the fact that his last coherent thoughts, after all our time and effort in keeping him safe and comfortable, were of Penny attacking him. God, that makes me cry even now. I felt and still feel like I failed him. It was THEN that we became so diligent about making sure Penny is secure and keeping our other animals safe. I had seen Penny "snap" before, but never to that degree and I never realized she was that huge a threat. That is why we are so diligent, to the point of paranoia, about Penny now. My husband believes that if we just try hard enough, everything will be ok. What I'm getting at is that my feelings toward Penny are tainted by that. Since it happened, I have said over and over that I think we need to put her down. I almost took her that very morning and had it done, but didn't want to make that kind of decision when I didn't have my wits about me. Still, for the past year, it's on my mind and I can't help but feel like I'm jeopardizing my other dogs. I feel like one day I'm not going to be quick enough, or am going to not be paying attention, and she's going to do it again. After all, I was adamant about keeping Goober safe and comfortable and look where it got him. I never once, not for a minute, thought Penny would ever growl or raise a lip at one of us. It is SO out of character for her. Even during times when she has been in pain and I've had to doctor her, she never complained. She has had some ugly cuts and skin infections and a couple of sprains that I've doctored and she always handled it ok, NEVER showing any aggression. As far as me or my husband go, I trusted her implicitly. Now the seed of distrust has been planted, along with the other past stuff, and I don't know if I can get over that. I've also awakened her abruptly in the past and she never reacted this way. I will talk to my vet again, but I already know what he's going to say. He firmly believes Penny should have been put to sleep last year and has urged me to seriously consider it. My vet is also a personal friend and this is not something he would tell me lightly. He knows me well and he knows my animals. I know he would not tell me such a thing if he didn't seriously believe it was for the best. Anyway, I'm still indecisive. Part of me really believes that putting her down would be the right thing to do for the sake of the rest of my household, but I don't have the fortitude required to do it. I've never given up on any of my animals. She was raised from the time she was 4-5 weeks old here with love and affection just like all my other animals. I can't help wondering where I went wrong with her. She is obviously not allowed back onto the couch, but it goes deeper than that. It's like it hurt my feelings that she did that. Her smile and the way she wags her whole butt... I don't know if I can part with that. Still, if I'm just being naive and she ever hurts someone or another animal, I just know I will die. Please forgive my ramblings. Bear with me. You have no idea how much my heart and soul are hurting right now.

Serious dilemma here (I know, from me, who would have guessed, right?). A lot of you know that we have been dealing with dog aggression problems with Penny, our Pit(ish) Bull. From what I've learned, it's to be expected that she may be animal aggressive, so we are diligent in our monitoring of her and have done all we can to be responsible. She has NEVER once shown any form of aggression to my husband or me... we can take food from her, handle her any way we want, anything and she NEVER has a problem with it. Penny has recently begun sleeping on the couch. It really was no problem because the rest of them are allowed on the furniture as well. She was just never interested before. Now all of a sudden, it's her favorite place. I have always been able to handle her on the couch just like any other time. Tonight, I was sitting in my little chair thingy by the couch (it's a little seat thing that I have kind of strategically placed where no one can accidentally wander up on her). I reached over, like I have done a million times, and just patted her on her shoulder. She raised up her head, curled her lip and growled! I looked around, thinking that another dog or cat was too close, or that it was because I had abruptly awakened her. She will react like that if she is getting "lovies" and another animal comes too close. There was no one near. I thought maybe I had just missed someone, so I did it again... leaned over and patted her on her shoulder, same as usual. She did it again! And she was NOT asleep! Ok, I know all the demotion techniques. I did get her off the couch and put her in her kennel. She was fine with it. My question is should I be worried? Is that a naive question? To be totally and brutally honest, the only reason Penny is still alive is because of my husband. For those who don't know, Penny has been vet tested, vet checked, examined and all that out the wazoo, is healthy as a horse, is on medication to help "mellow" her out some. We have worked with a behavior oriented vet in dealing with her. There are eight other dogs in this house, not to mention cats, that I am ALWAYS on the lookout to be sure no one gets hurt. She is typically very obedient and could easily ace the CGC test as far as her obedience goes. Also, point of interest here, she bit a boy a few years ago, but I fully believe he deserved it as he always used to taunt her and tease her through the fence. Anyway, I never used that to believe she is at all human aggressive. She doesn't lunge at people and I can take her out in public anywhere. Am I overreacting? I have long believed Penny doesn't have a place here and rehoming her is not an option. Besides the fact that it would be virtually impossible to find a qualified and experienced owner with no other animals, our state law is such that once a dog has bitten someone, for any reason, it's a dangerous dog and it states that a dangerous dog can not be sold, or given away. If she ever bit anyone else, we would be responsible. Don't get me wrong... I love this girl. I really do and it breaks my heart to feel the way I do about her. I also sometimes really resent her. I don't know if I'm just not thinking logically... I'm already uncomfortable with her around my other animals and I want to make sure I'm not just using this episode as another nail in her coffin. By the same token, I don't want to have my head up my butt and ignore what may be obvious to some. I'm rambling, I know. What would you do? I'm so freaked out by this. We've done EVERYTHING to be responsible with her and have gone above and beyond trying to show her affection and love. Do I wait to see if it happens again? Do I take it as a warning? The obvious... she will no longer be allowed on the couch, but still... the fact that she did it at all is freaking me out. I wouldn't be nearly as freaked out if I hadn't seen the ferocity she can use when lashing out at other dogs. :-? :-? :-?

Way to go there, Jerry-dude! That's great news! I agree with courtnek. You HAVE to take him back there. Heck, it's been over five years since we adopted our Lab (Tucker) from the shelter, but we still go back from time to time just to "check in" and the shelter people always seem to appreciate it. They were as overjoyed as we were when Tucker got his Delta Society therapy dog certification and they shared our pain as he underwent surgery and consequently a lengthy recovery from his FHO. You really do need to let them see how well Jerry is doing. You just can't understand how special and amazing it is that you took a dog with such obvious needs and accepted the expense required to turn him around. They are so used to dealing with death, irresponsibility and blatant stupidity... give these folks a little ray of sunshine and a reason to keep doing what they're doing! You never know the impact you could have! :angel:

[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3630539458&category=10845[/url] Go here to report it>>> [url]http://pages.ebay.com/help/contact_inline/index.html[/url] There is strength in numbers and it seems the more complaints ebay gets about these live animal sales, the quicker they respond. Geez, what are people thinking? :x

Wishing you goodly luck! Have fun!

And on the flip side, BARF is not for [u]every[/u] dog. Mine became extremely ill on the diet, though I carefully followed the books' and enthusiasts' instructions to the letter. I prepared it with the same meat I bought for my own consumption. I just wanted to point out that BARF is not always the end all, cure all diet for [u]all[/u] dogs and that not [u]every[/u] dog on a well formulated kibble is less healthy than a BARF dog. Mine have the shiny coats, teeth, energy and all that as well. I can honestly say my dog did enjoy BARF more than kibble, but she also enjoys cat turds and she ain't getting those, either. I'm not trying to talk you out of it. I do believe that BARF can have its place and I am not anti-BARF, per se (only in that I will NEVER feed it to another one of my dogs). I just pop in from time to time to point out the reality that it is not the perfect diet for [u]every[/u] dog and that it is not without risk, no matter how well read and prepared you are. Do the research, both pro and con (it's out there), and arm yourself with the information available. BARF lists are not objective sources of information, but will be great if and when you do decide to go ahead with it. It's kind of like joining a Ford forum when deciding which kind of car to buy... they're hardly going to tell you if Fords suck. Find OBJECTIVE sources of information. If you want to see the potential downside of BARF, PM me and I will see if I can dig up some of my old research. I'd just rather not start a major debate here. I never get involved with discussions of people who do feed BARF, but I do tend to pop up when people are only considering it. Again, so the mega enthusiasts don't crucify me, I understand that BARF has its place and many dogs do well on it. There. I said it. My only bone of contention (pun intended) is that there ARE dogs who don't do well on it and it's not always from lack of execution or preparation. You will find many people who take the pollyanna view that ANY dog who isn't a booming success on BARF surely had it prepared wrong.

Some people just need a good reality check. Something like, in the name of "helpfulness" of course, using your bag to pick up the poo for her, following her to her car, dumping the contents on her car hood and telling her you need your bag back, but since she has one in the car (making sure to smile sweetly as you depart)... Some people just don't care. It makes it tougher on those of us who do. I hope your rant makes it into the paper and Miss GotRocks reads it.

Most of my dogs' names have no special significance. They just "happened" and sounded good to me. If I can spit it out easily and they answer to it, it's a winner. Let's see.... Tucker, my Lab. His name is actually Tucker Dedicated. It just sounded good because, at the time, I was running a route out of Tucker, GA (Atlanta area) and the route was called a Tucker dedicated route. Penny, the Pit(ish) Bull. She was in horrid shape when I first saw her and she had to be bathed, rebathed and soaked again to be fit to be around. When clean, we said she "shined up like a new Penny." Peanut, the Toy Poodle. Probably more than you want to know, but when she was a tiny puppy, her poop looked like peanuts. Sorry for the visual. :-? Missy, the female Lhasa Apso. Her name is actually Misdemeanor because she really does have a rotten disposition sometimes, but Missy is easier to spit out. Fred, the male Lhasa Apso. Named after Fred Flintstone. I don't know; ask my husband. It was his idea. Simon, the Schnauzer. He just looked like a Simon. Chico, the Chihuahua. He just looked like a Chico. Perry (formerly Perry-NO), my first Standard Poodle. No clue what to name him until my kid sister saw him for the first time and just said, "Hi, Perry!" Worked for me. Pauly-NO, my latest Standard Poodle. He's just goofy enough to look like a Pauly (the NO part is self explanatory) and I did want another P name to go with Perry and Peanut (this gang travels with me EVERYWHERE and I can collectively call them P3 and they listen). The cats? Buddy's name is actually Butthead, but Buddy sounds better in polite company. Li'l Bit because she was so tiny.... until she was spayed. Now she's Big 'Un? :-? Half Pint, littermate of Li'l Bit... she's still a teeny tiny cat. TomCat or Tiger, as he was named by his previous owners. We never call him Tiger, but never named him otherwise, so we just call him TomCat. Snowball, black as smut. Seriously. Another example of my husband's sense of humor (ha? :o ).

[quote name='Bentleythewonderdog']Peyton [/quote] That's a winner to me! Seriously, it has long been my favorite girl name. I always said if I'd had a daughter, I would have named her Peyton. Since I have no kids (and no plans to), my next girl muttley will likely be named Peyton. Have I mentioned it's my favorite girly name?

Oh, of course! That's one of them new miniaturized, long haired Pit Bulls. The toy variety. It's a gen-yoo-ine Toy Pit Bully Poo. All the menacing tenacity and locking jaws of a Pit Bull, but smaller so that Grandma can carry him, and hypoallergenic. Tastes great, less filling and all that. I can't believe you haven't seen them before now! :o

[quote name='Mei-Mei']Peng1zrule, Horsefeathers was making a little joke. She has 9 dogs! :D[/quote] Mei Mei, I don't see where Peng1zrule addressed me. :oops:

I wish I could help. It's been so long since I've had two dogs, I don't remember what it's like. :-?

This may not be a popular opinion, but then again, when has that ever stopped me? Perhaps, in addition to the training and conditioning and all the other things mentioned, medication might not be such a bad idea? Just something temporary until you can work through this. Sometimes medication in conjunction with training can work. If pharm medication doesn't interest you, I'm sure someone here knows of some somewhat sedating herbal remedies (I never had luck with Rescue Remedy, but there are others). I'll tell a little secret (that's liable to get me in big trouble)... when my Lab was younger and used to bark/dig/chew/spin round and round and round and round in circles, I would occasionally pop a Benedryl in him (per my vet's suggestion... I really don't care for hard drugs like Ace) to settle him down for a little while. It did help establish a sleep pattern with him as he did get used to sleeping through the night without it (this dog used to NEVER sleep.. he would take nano naps throughout the day). I guess it was kind of sort of a training aid. Also, one of my other dogs is on Clomicalm because she is a bit neurotic without it. It doesn't sedate her, but does keep her more stable instead of constantly wired. Sometimes medication (herbal or traditional) can be a temporary thing, used in conjunction with training and so forth. It's just an option to consider. I'd rather consider any options including medication before it reaches the point you'd consider getting rid of her. If you absolutely have to, maybe you can give her a bit of a sedative during those times when she's so wired. Maybe the lesser of the evils and only temporarily? I feel yer pain... I came home from dinner tonight and my Perry had found and eaten a pair of hose (no clue where they came from... I haven't worn hose in over a year), a hairbrush, a bandana, some q-tips and some other still unidentified item. Fortunately, he's a good dog MOST of the time. :-?

Now there's something you don't see every day... a pimp and a pumpkin. Much pumpkin pimping going on in your 'hood? :o :P

:-?

[url]http://forums.ebay.com/db1/thread.jsp?forum=2&thread=2329981&modifed=20030929183256[/url] I saw this and just figured some of you here might like to add your two cents to the discussion. Apparently, a day care owner's son recently adopted a Pit (no papers, no idea this dog's lineage, son doesn't want to neuter him in case he wants to stud him, day care owner is worried about the Pit around children, several people have responded with their own concerns about why she should be worried, etc., blah, and so forth). It isn't a really ugly debate or anything... just some really clueless responses. I figured some of you might jump at the chance to dispel some myths. I have no problem with people saying not to trust ANY dog around children in a daycare. Just the notion that it's MORE dangerous because it's a Pit... Anyway, enjoy the... [img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YwD*AqMfG02VQwKU1!51HdetqBQpkey6r4Ba*Uqc8bfdY8h*3b6rvSdKSunlCzz!BT!jdfFigyEal07zKEqu8GYzKFBV8m4dFB9!prOoZZPiK7IvdKPRmEC*l3g0DxPsabcfJWtoziEscjqgb9PcEg/can%20o%20worms.jpg?dc=4675436072335082448[/img]

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XADmAmcdwnzZgyb3S*4h7oK207RoxNDa1ScU2sKhkgMmQhYh8T30b8tfPHdeP3wAokMNSLD2DDLgSKDn2eyq3hZ9Slw3NxHfRkHh1sTAvbSI8bs3wdo6ki19vzNCR*e9jvWbxTsiyEc/collage4.JPG?dc=4675440880927168096[/img] Not pictured are my two ferrets, Layla and Sugar, and my other Standard Poodle, Pauly. See photo of Perry and imagine him a little shorter legged (Perry's a pretty tall feller... Pauly's kind of squatty). Now you've visualized Pauly. :) Oh, and do my two goldfish count? I have no photos of them, but they look like any other fantailed goldfish you've probably ever seen. They currently reside in my master bathtub. :-?

[quote name='Mei-Mei']I think it's time Zaphod got a part-time job! :o [/quote] Actually, I was kinda sorta thinking a full time job with an excellent insurance benefits package! :o Glad disaster has once again been averted.... for a minute or two! :wink:

One other thought... perhaps, if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. In other words (no, I'm not being a smartaxe), maybe they each are content with their sleeping arrangements. Maybe Laurel feels more comfortable having someplace to escape to and will come down when she feels ready. It seems like you might be more worried about it than they are. :lol: