odnarb

[quote name='Mei-Mei']Look at those horrible faces! That's the cutest thing I've ever seen! He looks completely tormented. :o :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote] LOL, here's a few more that I uploaded just for you :lol: [img]http://odnarb.com/horribleface01.jpg[/img] [img]http://odnarb.com/horribleface02.jpg[/img] [img]http://odnarb.com/horribleface03.jpg[/img]

[quote name='guesttoday'] Do you enjoy being the alleged friend of a pathetic pit bull hating loser?[/quote] Actually, I enjoy being rational and level headed. [quote]I suppose you've forgotten all the times she has trashed the breeder of your dog.[/quote] No, I haven't. But, that has WHAT to do with now? [quote]And btw, why am *I* a no name cur, but not Primrose? She is as anonymous as I am.. but that's ok with you, I suppose.[/quote] Primrose is posting as Primrose. You are somebody I know, I'm sure, but you are too chicken poop to post under your regular handle. I think that is very sad and pathetic, and it makes you lose a lot of credability. All in all, I don't give a rat's behind what you think of me, if you want to think I'm primrose's buddy, go right ahead. Overall, I'm pretty damned sick of the APBT & AmSTaff communities. A bunch of people making a bunch of pathetic excuses for breeding their crappy dogs, selling or adopting out dogs that are mentally/physically unsound, and being in complete denial of some of the real problems that the breed(s) face. So, think what you want of me. I'm here for the breed, not to make friends.

[quote name='LisaH']describing Pit Bull owners as sociopathic losers[/quote] There ARE a lot of sociopathic losers in the breed. One of our many, many problems.

[quote name='cheekymunkee'] If they lacked communication skills, there would be no pleas of uncle.[/quote] Lacking doesn't mean completely abscent. [quote]It would be an all out fight.[/quote] And after I had one of those, the rules got REALLY strict. [quote]They know exactly what the other is saying, they just chose to ignore it.[/quote] Most likely you are correct, but since we can't ask them, we don't know for sure. [quote]I have seen Hartagold post pictures of her dogs lying on the sofa, piled on top of her boyfriend. They seem to be communicating. I know she has very well trained dogs but there HAS to be some communicating going on between them for them to lie so content. Debby[/quote] I have a Hartagold dog, and I can show you pics of him lying on the couch with a dog that he didn't really get along well with, because Grant either misunderstood or blatantly ignored what Buster was telling him. Lora of Hartagold rules her dogpack with an iron fist, as do I.

[quote name='courtnek']is that dog OK? It looks like it's in pain....I cant stand pain, please tell me she's fine.... :o :o :o :o[/quote] LOL! He's fine. He likes to roll around on the ground and make horrible faces. [img]http://odnarb.com/harryshark01.jpg[/img] [img]http://odnarb.com/harryshark02.jpg[/img] [img]http://odnarb.com/harryshark03.jpg[/img] [img]http://odnarb.com/harryshark04.jpg[/img]

[quote name='guesttoday'] LOL And I've seen you trying to make excuses for her for about 7 years on every new board... until she takes one of YOUR posts out of context, twists your words and tries to use your dog as an example of something improper. THEN you take offense. Guess it depends whose ox is being gored.[/quote] Primmy and I have gotten into it on various boards over the years, that's no secret. So who are you, nameless cur that won't sign your name? It's hard to take anyone seriously if they are too cowardly to post who they are :roll:

[quote name='Horsefeathers!'] You must have a different chain of Wal*Marts than we do. The greeters that stand in the front of ours were hired on to stand at the front and look menacing. They are like those palace guards over in England with their glazed expressions and wouldn't smile or speak if their lives depended on it. They undergo special training in how to grimace, snarl and look as intimidating as possible while at the same time they file all the buggy wheels to be perfectly square so they have that neat little clack clack clack thing going when you're shopping. Our greeters also undergo rigorous physical training so as to be able to dash out the door and nab those rotten ne'er do wells who dared walk out of the store empty handed for surely they must have shoved merchandise in their pockets. [/quote] Geez, no wonder you found my quote so amusing. I meant smile like that nice senior citizen that is handing you a shopping cart :o

[quote name='Mei-Mei'] I suppose I'm sensitive about this since I'm so familiar with lack of communication on the part of humans. I know I can't translate my son's inability to speak, sign, read or write to dog communication, but the comparison is somewhat apt. I don't understand how a dog could not understand dog language. Wouldn't it logically follow that a dog that didn't understand dog language wouldn't exhibit dog language? No tail wagging, no growling over a bone. No whining puppies (whining is communication), no face licking (also communication). How could a dog not understand communication, but use it? It may be possible, but I just can't see it. :-? I think some pit bulls lack [b][i]social[/i][/b] skills, not [b][i]communication[/i][/b] skills.[/quote] You have a point, and are probably correct. [quote]Also, as per Primmy, I don't think people argue with her for the sake of argument. [/quote] I've been posting on boards with primrose for about 7 years, and people will definately argue with her for the sake of arguing. I've seen sensible folks post the most assinine things just cuz primrose said the opposite. [quote]There have been many, many times that people on this site (even in this thread!) have agreed with her assessment of pit bulls. What some object to is her tendency to stereotype bully owners and also her absolute dedication to fighting and controversy. Frankly I'm interested in hearing what she has to say. If only she didn't feel as though she needed to imitate the bad representatives of the breed she excoriates..... :)[/quote] LOL, perhaps she lacks social skills, too :roflt:

[quote name='LisaH'] It's all just conjecture-as close as we are to our dogs, we sometimes can't read their minds :)[/quote] And, how right you are! [quote]And it's not just Pit Bulls who do it and not just Pit Bulls who will continue to keep fighting a dog that is clearly showing submission.[/quote] Again, you are right. It just happens to be very common in the pit bull.

[quote name='cheekymunkee'] Our dogs should not spend time in dog parks because they have the potential to be dog aggressive, not because they lack communication skills.[/quote] Then why don't they acknowledge the dog that is belly up urinating on itself? [quote]If they lack communication skills, how is it that they can be around each other at all? Your dogs seem to be fine around each other, if they aren't communicating, how is it possible?[/quote] Define "fine." My dogs WILL fight with each other, I control the environment to a great degree. And if not directly supervising, seperate! My own dogs ignore each other's pleas of "uncle." They aren't really allowed to roughhouse much anymore. It escalates WAY too quickly. [quote]For the most part, Primmies post was correct, BUT I will not sit back & smile while someone spreads false information about my breed. If that makes me a thug, then I'll change my nickname to C-Dawg. Word :wink: Debby[/quote] Just remember, JQP reads these boards. We can't say that she is full of crap, when you yourself admit that for the most part she was corrrect. If I was JQP and read this, I would think that all these folks were stupid and ignorant when it comes to dog behavior. Adress the individual points where she is correct, and go ahead and blast what is incorrect. :evilbat: Perhaps the smile was a bit to strong? How about be civil? lol

[quote name='Horsefeathers!'] My new favorite quote. Thanks. 8)[/quote] No prob :lol: I am also perfecting my Miss America wave. "Hello world! I am Princess Pit Bull!" :hand:

[quote name='Mei-Mei'] I'm relatively positive it's that they blatantly ignore what the other dog is telling them. A dog that could not understand other doggie signs would pretty much be absolutely lost, a monster that would be nearly impossible to control. It would amount to dog autism. My son is autistic, and he can't relate to people in a normal way. I just can't see this in a dog. I've been around a lot of dogs and though they can be stubborn, mean, and scarily independent, I've never seen [b]ONE[/b] that does not understand dog language.[/quote] And in all honesty, I have seen and heard of APBTs that fit this bill perfectly.

[quote name='HazelNutMeg'] you Obviously DID NOT READ WHAT I WROTE! go back and read it!! I clearly stated that some breeds can comunicate better than others, but none DONT SPEAK DOG! They can all get their point across to eachother, just some take a bit more time to figure it out than others.[/quote] Sometimes a bit more time is the difference between a dead dog and a live dog. [quote]It's not that your bullies DON'T UNDERSTAND, it's that they are obnoxious (and I don't mean this in a rude way, almost all bull + terrier breeds are! It's the terrier attitude!). They know very well what your friend's dog is saying, they just chose to ignore it because they are obnoxious, it wasnt' bred out of them to understand though, they DO understand.[/quote] I initially wrote: [i]And what would you say if I told you that I observe the very behavior she describes in my own bulldogs? Some either can't, or they blatantly ignore what the other dog is telling them.[/i] I would tend to believe that they ignore as opposed to misunderstand. I know that Grant understands his commands for French Ringsport, he just blatantly ignores me. LMAO But the point is, excuses are being made, and an arguement is being based on semantics. Primmy states: [quote]The essential difference with pit bulls, however, is that they have been intentionally bred to be oblivious to the normal dog language and to not respond to the normal ways that dogs settle these little disagreements. [/quote] The definition of oblivious is... [i]1. Lacking all memory; forgetful. 2. Lacking conscious awareness; unmindful. [/i] Thesaurus.com says... [i]Entry: oblivious Function: adjective Definition: ignorant Synonyms: absent, absent-minded, absorbed, abstracted, amnesic, blind, blundering, careless, deaf, disregardful, distracted, dreamy, forgetful, forgetting, gone, heedless, inattentive, incognizant, inconversant, insensible, neglectful, negligent, overlooking, preoccupied, regardless, spacey, strung out, unacquainted, unaware, unconcerned, unconscious, undiscerning, unfamiliar, uninformed, uninstructed, unknowing, unmindful, unnoticing, unobservant, unrecognizing, unwitting, zonked Concept: ignorance [/i] Same friggin' arguement. If primmy said that the sky was blue, people would argue that it was azure. It's all about the arguement. It makes pit bull owners look bad. If we want the breed to survive, we need to put on our best Walmart greeter smiles and show the world that we aren't a bunch of arguementive thugs, and present the facts in a non-confrontational way. Making excuses and arguing both sides isn't going to save us. Fact of the matter is, our dogs should not spend time in dog parks because they lack communication skills. If they were masters at canine language, playing with the other nice doggies would be a nonissue.

[quote name='HazelNutMeg']She uses a LOT of false information, such as the crap about how Pit Bulls can't read other dog's warning signs :roll: :roll: ?[/quote] And what would you say if I told you that I observe the very behavior she describes in my own bulldogs? Some either can't, or they blatantly ignore what the other dog is telling them. Considering I have two unrelated adults that exhibit this behavior, I find it REALLY hard to believe that I am the ONLY bulldog owner on this board that has ever noticed this :roll: And in all honesty, I really don't see what is so horrible about primmy's post. Sure, she can be abrasive and jabbing, but overall what she said was true. Just for fun while I'm waiting for my lunch to finish cooking, I'll break down her post and comment on it, as a responsible bulldog owner. [quote]While I agree that it was irresponsible of the pit bull owner to disappear, I am not sure who should pay whose bill in a situation like that. Was the dog who "started" the fight the dog who growled first or the dog who attacked first? [/quote] I vote for the original poster being liable for damages to her own dog. Entering a dog park is assuming risk or injury and disease, IMO. [quote]And several people have good points regarding how many dogs can have disagreements over food, toys, etc. The essential difference with pit bulls, however, is that they have been intentionally bred to be oblivious to the normal dog language and to not respond to the normal ways that dogs settle these little disagreements. This is the reason they don't belong in dog parks. [/quote] My dogs have a few dogs that they can interact with. They belong to friends and family, and all are pretty submissive. Dogs that would stand up to them would be toast. The people that own these dogs love mine, and understand the risk that my dogs pose, and we never EVER leave them alone together. Sometimes, my dogs get too boisterous for the other dogs, and the other dogs give obvious signs that they want to STOP. My dogs don't, and I step in to put the breaks on my wild beasts. Allowing my dogs around friends & families dogs means I have to watch the body language of the other dogs just as much if not MORE than my own dogs, since my dogs either don't understand or ignore what the other dogs are telling them. They behaved this way around my late Pug, they behave like this around Harry, the new Malinois pup. Harry's breeder mentioned that her adult Malis are rather creeped out by the boisterous behavior of bulldogs (BTW, she is a big fan of the breed). When Harry got here, he was TERRIFIED of the big headed monsters that ran, jumped and pounced, and spent a good deal of time running and ducking for cover. Now that he has been here longer, he's learning to take the smackdowns, and has delivered a few cannonball attacks of his own. He still, however, occasionally reverts to the old duck and run for cover move. It will be curious how his breeder's dogs will react to him when he is older. I have a feeling that due to him "growing up bulldog," he will be more in-your-face and physical with other dogs than most Malinois. Anyway, I'm going off on my own. Now back to task... [quote]The wolfpack (which is the baseline for all dog social behavior, because that is dogs before humans started messing with them) is not a very peaceful place. Wolves snarl at each other and snap at each other quire regularly. Yet actual injuries are rare and deaths are rarer still because most of this is posturing and show and wolves read each other well and back down when they have offended each other. In most dog breeds, (where dog aggression is not particularly valued) the ability to read other dogs and to retreat if a dog snarls is relatively intact. Indeed, many breeds are bred for even better social skills than found in the wolfpack, because they are useful for most uses dogs have. Beagle breeders don't want beagles who can't get along and are constantly ripping their packmates apart. Brittanies need to be able to run at a field trial with another dog they have never met and concentrate on getting birds, not on trying to kill their bracemate. [/quote] Very true, dog aggression in either of those dogs would be a huge detriment to the task at hand. This would be similar to a human aggressive bulldog. [quote]Pit bulls are unique, because they are quite likely to be missing the equisite canine interaction skills that most other breeds have. This is because a dog who has those skills (for example, backing away from a dog who postures to avoid a fight) is useless to a dog fighter. He sneers at such a dog and calls him a "coward" and a "cur." (Of course, any wolf who isn't a coward doesn't last long enough to breed--wolves are consumate cowards). While most dogs have the ability to stop fighting if the othre dog submits, this is the LAST thing the dog fighter wants. He wants a dog who will keep on fighting no matter what submissive signals his opponant give, and that is what he has bred for. Most dogs know how to inhibit their bites. Horrific looking dog fights (between non-pit bulls) quite typically don't result in any injuries at all. This isn't because the dogs COULDN"T put holes in each other, they could but they don't. But dog fighters breed dogs specifically for the ability and desire to inflict injury quickly and with great devastation.[/quote] I don't think this is exclusive to APBTs/AmStafs though. I have seen similar results in a wide variety of bull & mastiff breeds. [quote]Pit bull breeders have intentionally bred dogs who can't communicate in the language that other dogs use. When a four year old bitch snarls at a rough adolescent dog, she means to say "Respect me, I am your elder. Do not body slam me like that" and she expects him to say back "Yes Ma'am, I'm sorry" The pit bull, however, may well take that snarl as saying "I am ready to fight." and he responds "I am a pit bull and I DON'T back down when I am disrespected. Let's fight."[/quote] Yup, that's pretty much what my dogs would say to a strange dog. To dogs they are familiar with, they continue to body slam even if the other dog is lashing out with teeth. And, that's where I step in, since my dogs are apparently the Beavis and Butthead of the dog world. [quote]Dog parks and other places for offlead dogs are fun places. The fact that they are should not go there is just one more handicap inflicted on pit bulls by the irresponsible people who think dog aggression is cool.[/quote] I'm not sure that I would agree that they are "fun," but I've never really experienced them before. I was raised with dogs that didn't play nice, I grew up and got dogs that don't play nice. Harry's breeder selects against dog aggression, and the breed isn't exactly known for being terribly dog aggressive. Even so, I'm not sure that I will be taking Harry to dog parks. Also wanted to address this point that HAzelNutMeg said... [quote]UGH, your crap is really starting to tick me off Primmy! ALL DOGS SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE!!! They can even comunicate with wolves! Only to a certain degree though. Some dogs speak more "Wolfish" and some less. Usually it's the smaller breeds that speak less, and therefore have less comunication skills when it comes to warnings, but no dog has had this "bred out of them". Sibes, believe it or not - it's not just a coinkidink that they LOOK more like a wolf - speak closest to "Wolfish" but all dogs speak "Dogish" INCLUDING PIT BULLS![/quote] No, all dogs DON'T speak the same language. Different breeds DO interact differently, different breeds have different mannerisms. Harry relates best to my mom's Kelpie mix. I wonder why that is?

[quote name='Kiwi'] There is a good reason why the "downface" of today's bull terrier was created, no it wasn't for cosmetic purposes as this article suggests[/quote] That's a new one! In all honestly, that sounds like one of those really silly arguements for breeding for nonfunctional traits. Sort of like how English Bulldogs have short snouts so that they can breathe while gripping a bull, and the facial wrinkles were to drain blood away. In reality, the Bulldog of bullbaiting days had much more muzzle without the wrinkles. But, show breeders have to justify the trendy appearance. Bull Terriers haven't been used extensively for dog fighting for a long, long time. And when there were, they didn't have the extreme heads that you see today. If that were true, the roman nose would have developed on the APBT by now. But, the fighting lines of today look the same as they did over a century ago.

[quote name='Mutt_Lady']Sorry, guys..but I've been here for a little while now and still don't know what half of you own. Mind listing your dogs breeds and names here?? :D[/quote] In my sig :lol:

[quote name='Mutt_Lady']Oh gosh, are they ever cute!! I'm now contemplating whether or not I need a Belgian Malinois. Sorry..I guess I must be the only one here but..what's "French Ring Sport"?[/quote] Couple of links for you... [url]http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/Redenbach%20.htm[/url] [url]http://www.ringsport.org[/url] [quote]And...which puppy is Harry there? They both look so alike, I can't tell. Did you ever mix them up? They both are like darlings!! :D :D[/quote] In the pic above, he's the one on the left. I did mix them up at first, now I can tell them apart. :drinking:

[img]http://www.odnarb.com/demons.jpg[/img] Harry came home yesterday! He arrived via plane early afternoon yesterday. I haven't really gotten to enjoy him much though, I have one of his littermates until his new owner comes to pick him up. That better be SOON. It's hard to do anything with two pups. I don't know how breeders do it, and I think people who buy/adopt littermates are smoking something illegal. It doesn't help that Malinois puppies are like little Tazmanian Devils. And Harry's brother likes the taste of the bitter stuff that I sprayed on the stuff I ddin't want them chewing. Apparently I just seasoned everything for him. Did I mention that I want his brother to go home soon? LOL Here's some pics of the little monsters. Here are new pics on Harry's page, too. [url]http://www.odnarb.com/demons.html[/url]

[quote name='odnarb'] You know, I have no clue what CHIC means. I should find out, LOL.[/quote] I learn something new every day! For those interested... [url]http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/[/url]

[quote name='SizzleDog']Rabid Poodle, do all these dogs lookt he same to you? Are they mean and/or ugly? :roll: [img]http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/lhartlep/SAVE/fiasco_054.jpg[/img][/quote] With the magic of photoshop, it's the same mean and ugly dog over and over again! j/k :lol:

[quote name='primrose']Yikes. You are actually doing it? Terrifying, isn't it? I was hoping you would opt for a malinois, and it looks like a nice litter [/quote] I did, and I'm pretty darn excited! I can't wait, Saturday seems like a year away right now :D [quote](I don't know what all those letters mean, but since the dam is CHIC, I assume that means somehow she is OFA, even though it isn't listed specifically)[/quote] You know, I have no clue what CHIC means. I should find out, LOL. Her hips and elbows are through GDC, which I think was Genetic Disease Center. I'm not even sure if they are around anymore, I think they were through UC Davis. We did hips and elbows for a Malinois for GDC at work several years ago. I don't remember all the details about it, but I do remember thinking that is was better than OFA when I went through the paperwork. I wish I could remember why I thought that, I have terrible short term memory. I would have prefered that the sire have eyes and elbows done as well, but he's eleven, can still see and is going strong. The litter was too good to pass up. [quote]but obviously they are French Ring superstars. So I guess you are planning to devote the rest of your life to French Ring?[/quote] It pretty much rules my life right now. LMAO This particular breeder does a lot of different activities with her dogs, and I'm looking for a nice jack-of-all-trades dog. If he doesn't make FRIII, I won't be heartbroken. I want a dog who can do a bit of everything. [quote]You are right that this puppy might get a CD quicker than poor Grant. I will be interested to hear your observations and experiences about training the two.[/quote] I think it will be very interesting! Grant is not a particularly biddable dog. He does what he wants, when he wants. Sometimes I can find things to motivate him, sometimes I can't. He's getting more handler sensitive as he ages, and biddability is increasing, but it's still not anything like Brando or my late Rottweiler. Last night, he decided he wanted to roll in the grass instead of do bitework. Normally, bitework is the best thing in the world to him. Decoy standing over him moving about in an inticing manner, decoy slapped him playfully on the rear end, I commanded him to go after the decoy, nope. He just continued to wiggle on his back in the grass, that's what Grant wanted to do at that moment, and that's what he did. When doing agility, sometimes he just plain doesn't want to jump, and nothing is going to make him jump. Try again later in the day, and he's a jumping fool! And if he doesn't want to do obedience, screw it :-? Another of his issues is that he likes to show off for a crowd. He enjoys making people laugh (generally at my expense). At training, and often at matches, there isn't much of a crowd watching, and he performs beautifully. At most trials there are spectators. The combination of his lack of biddability and desire to be a canine comedian leads to some rather interesting behavior :o I'm expecting a more serious, focused dog out of the Malinois. Grant isn't an idiot by any means, he's just different. I expect that he will title eventually, but there will be a lot of NQs along the way. I'm thinking of buying this shirt, just to wear when we trial in various venues... [img]http://www.beautyofthebeasts.com/images/entertaining.gif[/img] [quote]Do you know which puppy you are getting? Will he have to be shipped or will you be able to go pick him up? primrose[/quote] Yes, the one called "Harley." When he gets here, his name will be Harry. He's being shipped via air with a littermate. A guy that I know is getting one of the other pups.

[quote name='primrose']Down below, in a thread that got locked (apparently because substantive issues were being discussed), you mention that you are getting a new puppy? Tell. primrose[/quote] Malinois arriving on Saturday. Here's a link to the litter he's coming from. [url]http://members.aol.com/malndobe/litterh.htm[/url]

[quote name='primrose']Similarly, maybe somewhere there is an ADBA breeder of pit bulls who is responsible (although we haven't seen any examples, yet), but the vast majority are not, so I guess that person has to give up his right to breed ADBA pit bulls (or register his/her dogs with the UKC, which I gather is sometimes possible). [/quote] To get your ADBA dog registered with the UKC, all you need is a pedigree and for the dog to have no disqualifying faults. If it has those, the inspectors are required to pass them. [quote]When does Grant go back in the obedience ring, by the way? We want to hear reports.[/quote] Probably in the fall. He has his first French Ring trail in August. I'm sure he will pull some stunt that will leave us the laughingstock at judges dinners for years to come. He's more mentally mature, but still kind of an idiot frat boy dog. The new pup coming this weekend will probably be mentally mature before Grant ever is. It wouldn't shock me if the new kid gets his CD first :lol:

[quote name='primrose']and illegal to have an intact pit bull over 18 months old who doesn't have at least a CD. primrose[/quote] I personally think that is a bit harsh for this breed. There are several dogs that HAVE pulled it off. However, there are a lot of pit bulls that aren't mentally mature enough to enter the obedience ring at 18 months. Grant just turned three, and he is just now showing that he is actually mature enough to get it. At 18 months he knew the routine, but not in an even remotely serious situation :lol:

[quote name='Hmmmm']I dont even think blue pits should be called APBTs. Just another "fad" color... If you take a look at the old dogs you wont see blues. [/quote] Sure ya will. It's well known that the Blue Paul was tossed into the smelting pot that became the APBT. Some interesting info for ya... From the book [u]Canine Lexicon[/u]... "BLUE PAUL These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshires of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch. The dogs were popular with he gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull-and-terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan. In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England, reports that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s." From Wayne Brown's book, [u]The History of the American Pit Bull Terrier[/u]... "Many people claim that the Blue Paul is extinct. He may be extinct in his pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity, as we have seen. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachussets. They fought at Catch weight which usually indicates large dogs. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a blue paul. If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From another part of the book: W.C.Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's)Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds. And another: Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. (several pages later): As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line." FYI......The Ruffian line of AmStaffs is where most of the blue ASTs are found. So I guess it did come from gamebred APBTs after all.......