DogPaddle

Hmmm, it seems the hog farmers care more about the welfare of their charges then the puppy millers. It may be motivated by profit but you'd figure the same would apply to dogs, happier healthier dogs might just sell better.

[quote]It's got heaps of great stuff about the cultural differences between Aust and the US... some of your delicacies etc are strange, but you probably think we're weird too! [/quote] I thought I'd share a little cullinary oddity from Canada - poutine (this is not a breakfast food.) I don't know if this artery clogger has reached you Yanks yet but it is available in fast food chains here now. It is a "traditional" French-Canadian dish comprised of french fries (usually deep freid), topped with cheese curds and gravy. I was told by some women from "the south" (she didn't mention what state in paticular) I met on the ferry that fries and gravy was not common where she was from and she wouldn't beleive me when I explained poutine.

[quote]It's got heaps of great stuff about the cultural differences between Aust and the US... some of your delicacies etc are strange, but you probably think we're weird too! [/quote] I thought I'd share a little cullinary oddity from Canada - poutine (this is not a breakfast food.) I don't know if this artery clogger has reached you Yanks yet but it is available in fast food chains here now. It is a "traditional" French-Canadian dish comprised of french fries (usually deep freid), topped with cheese curds and gravy. I was told by some women from "the south" (she didn't mention what state in paticular) I met on the ferry that fries and gravy was not common where she was from and she wouldn't beleive me when I explained poutine.

Ok, I DID NOT come up with this myself and it IS second hand info, possibly dog myth. Alpha males often express their dominance by mock mounting another dog. If you want to express your dominance and you won't feel utterly foolish doing it and you want to avoid their pointy ends you could extrapolate.

What's the deal with the eventual dog size and foot size thing? Someone told me that their feet my grow but the size of their ankle won't change much and you can try to determine their size by extrapolating from their. We're they pulling my leg. Humboldt505 - Kavik (BC) lost his teeth starting at 4 months and Tyr (GSD/Malamute) lost his first at 5 1/2 months.

I can see the need for clear boundaries but I don't think (or at least really hope) that commands need to be shouted or screamed. The males (human) in my house usually will shout a correction at the dogs. I used to be able to get the puppy to stop fussing in the crate by saying no firmly, now I have to growl the command to get the same response. I don't want to have to shout all my commands so I usually say a command once, sometimes if this does not get a response I give the commond again more growly and sometimes I go right to step three wich is to correct the problem myself eg if the command is dropit and he dosn't I remove the offending item and say no. Anyway keep up the good work HazelNM. :angel: :D

Will you be doing Schutzhund with your new boy when you get him?

That sounds awsome. We started the figure eight around the legs trick just at home and I was so impressed with myself and he still won't do the second loop without a treat. :lol: Oh well we'll keep working on it, you and Winnie keep having fun.

We have a pack/saddlebags for Kavik and you can put foam blocks in the sides for floatation. We had planned to use them in fast or cold water but had not thought of the getting tired thing. We'll have to put them in next time, Kavik really doesn't swim a lot. Usually his pack has his food in it (I have to portage mine so why shouldn't he) but I'm not going to switch that all around every portage so we'll just have to carry some of his food for him. (should have got a bigger dog then he could have carried some of my gear too :lol: )

From what I've seen so far in my limited research I think I'll go with raw meats but cooked grains (oatmeal and veg.) and bones mostly for chewing (uncooked). I might try to find a make your own kibble option because I like the convenience when we travel especially on a week long camping or canoe trip. Allicat - I know, too much suger - no good, he so loves his strawberry and blueberry yogurt though, shouldn't be to difficult to switch to plain yogurt with frozen berries blended in.

Kavik (BC) used to eat only when he was hungry or not otherwise engaged, which is not very often - I think this is a major part of the not eating often thing. Sometimes he might only eat a mouthful or so a day. He lost a fair amount of weight on our canoe trip last summer because there was so much to see and do he just wouldn't sit still to eat. Once we added another dog to the house he ate a little more often. He is healthy and active with good teeth and coat so I don't worry. I can see were his ribs end but not the individual ribs, seems ok to me.

I agree most BYBers are ignorant. They either made an oops, are trying to impress or think they can make some money. The rarer "hobby" breeder is not so bad if they actually do all their research. (In my more perfect world I would be able to convince some people who want a dog hobby of this sort of scale to start their own well run rescues with socializing and training etc.)

Maybe someone can elighten me but when my roommate and I did some quick amature calculations we came up with the figure of 30 breeding females (plus a few males) needed to live just below the poverty line (if no pups die and no small litters.) That of course naively is calculated assuming 1 litter per year per female (assuming all pregnancies culminate in a litter) and that you provide decent food and vetrinary care and a decent structure with limited heat if nec and proper cleaning. (If you get more dogs to make more money you'd eventually need to hire staff to adequately care for the animals.) So how can "commercial" breeders turn a profit and do things right?

How can any large scale farm, even if immaculatly clean well maintained, provide what a dog needs for a humane lifestyle for its breeding stock? Dogs are social animals, dogs that have been housed in shelters for too long develop behaviour issues or shows symptoms of stress and/or depression. Someone mentioned hog style dog farms, the "dog farms" I have seen (on internet or tv only) provide no outdoor pens or fenced areas, even hog farms have these. Ok roommate and I just did some very amature calculations here that led us to this question - How can large scale puppy farm provide properly for the needs of dogs and still turn a profit without breeding too often? It costs me $750 (can) per year just for Kavik's food, yearly innoc. and dog licence. Add all the costs of running a business and way more food and vet bills and the cost to produce a litter properly has got to exceed $3500 (can). In general purebred puppies, with papers, with good health and certified parents cost between $400 to $800 (can) and that's if they are pet quality or not "champion lines" wich most would be from large scale farms if your lucky. You would have to have a litter of at least 6 to turn a profit and that profit would be $300 (can) PER YEAR. Now of course they could get volume discounts on some things so lets even triple their profit - $900 per year from one breeding female (and some portion of care for a stud or stud fees) if you did the marginally right thing and bred her only 1x per year. Official poverty line income in Ontario is around $26500 per year in 1990. So you would need to have at least 30 breeding females plus a few males to make a [b]barely subsistance level[/b] living if you treating the dogs [b]anywhere close to right[/b]. I could be way off but I seriously doubt that many if any "puppy farms" are much more than slightly cleaner puppy mills with better PR.

I agree, that slopey back end just looks unnatural . . . broken. Yuck. I love the more square look of the body and head of the Czech and German dogs. Personally I prefer sable but black is very nice too. The American Show GSD looks to made up and fake. Hope the breeders have success working through those temperment issues. Definately some important issues to think about if we do get a GSD or GSDx rescue (in at least 5 years). A freind of ours has a GSD, definately from one of the Czech or German lines - more squarish body and head. They are working on their Shutzhund stuff. Mordecai is a dream in the house, very polite when he visits us, great with our puppy and our cats but Andrew has worked with him alot.

I can understand dogs having to be leashed but why on earth are they not allowed on the hiking trails . . . and why is paved ok instead. Kavik was very reckless in the boat (canoe) when we first started. We had to have him sit in the bow between my knees. He is better now but he is also a smaller dog so is less likely to send us swimming when he jumps ship. He has only done this once as, while Kavik is very keen on wading, swimming makes him nervouse. (He was only 9 months the last time we had him in a canoe or swimming though, maybe he'll warm up to it.)

I've never seen a Catahoula before, lovely. I change my vote, Rotti/Catahoula, that explains the light coloured eyes much better.

Hmmm - and I thought BARF and other plans were complicated. I'm going out to buy more "make your own dog food" and BARF books that way I can skip the whole puppy food or no puppy food issue. we already supliment the kibble with people food: stewing beef, bone (beef shank?), blueberry and strawbery yogurt, eggs, crunchy vegatables etc. So switching all the way over shouldn't be to hard and I know the dogs will like it. The only thing is - There is no way I can get Kavik to eat anything that has even been siting next to apple cider viniger which seems to be mentioned in most make you own foods.

Do you fish from the dock/shore or a boat? Where do you camp - state/national parks or elsewhere?

Alicat - I had not heard that about BARF and kibble. Thanks for the correction.

Black GSD - Please, do post some pics on the variety of GSD types (labled if you please.) After having Tyr in our house we are thinking a GSD rescue or GSDX resuce will be in our future (of course that will be in at least 5 yrs.)

I was very impressed with the breeders of working dogs I met. They would not sell dogs to people without livestock (I was looking at BCs) They would talk for hours if you wanted about their dogs and working traits and training even if they wouldn't sell you a dog. The one breeder referred me to a breeder of non-working lines BCs after ensuring I had some idea what I was getting into and was going to do something (agility, flyball etc) with the dog. I think for the most part breeders of working dogs produce good healthy dogs. GSD question on this topic: what is with the slopey back end on some GSDs, someone said that trait is exagerated in showlines and minimized in working lines, is this in anyway related to the hip problems some GSDs have?

I think a puppy miller is someone who breeds dogs for the purpose of making money. Most reputable breeders do well to break even. So if your making money off of it we all know who pays the difference - the dogs.

Ok, maybe I'll step back a step. Do any of you canoe at all? What about camping with your dogs or other similar activities?

There are so many poor dogs that need saving, I'm glad that another one has a chance. Way to go Jacsmom.