Hobbit

[quote name='RR']Whatever Hobbit Obviously from Poof's posts the knowledge is there and by far has [b]more understanding[/b] in this area than [b]MANY [/b]of the breeders here.[/quote] Just pointing out what she, herself, said.

[quote name='bullygirl29532']just a question: if a dog has the same sire or dam for grandparents or greatGparents would that be inbreeding? keep in ming that the parents were outcrossed.[/quote] Bullygirl, while eating my sandwich I thought about this some more. IF the parents are from different bloodlines, then they can't have the same grandparents. A dog's sire can't be HIS own sire. I think you're trying to say: the sire and dam have the same grandparents or greatgrand parents, right? They are in essence brother and sister. Am I understanding your question correctly? I'm a seeing person --- when it comes to pedigrees --- I must write them down in order to "see" them. :wink:

Hmmmm -- you also have the chance of weakening those strong traits with continual inbreeding (because of gene drift). You can achieve the same results without breeding brother to sister. Tightly inbreeding WILL cause a lower mental intelligence. You may have those strong traits that you want, but you are sacrificing the mental intelligence of your dogs to achieve this (with continual inbreeding). Please understand that I am in no way saying your dogs are substandard. Since you admit that you have no working knowledge of genetics, you will never understand what you are doing to your dogs, their health and mental capacity. Just my opinion: a person that does not have a working knowledge of genetics is a dangerous person, when it comes to breeding --- no matter how much experience you have at breeding.

Bec --- the reason so many people are against the crossing and calling it a NEW breed, is because --- it takes LONGER than 63 days for a breed to be established. YEARS of perfection, selective breeding and genetic manipulation to be able to consciously call the mixture of two breeds, a NEW breed.

[quote name='bullygirl29532']just a question: if a dog has the same sire or dam for grandparents or greatGparents would that be inbreeding? keep in ming that the parents were outcrossed.[/quote] I would consider this line breeding. It depends on what circle of scientists you run with or what University you attended --- line breeding and inbreeding, where I'm from are not considered the same term......almost, because it still means "within the family". When someone here says, the dog, horse, cow, whatever is "inbred" --- everyone automatically knows it's from a brother to sister (same sibling) breeding, father to daughter, mother to son, 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister. When someone here says, that particular animal is "Linebred", everyone knows it's aunt, uncle, etc.... Tightly linebred means up close family --- loosely linebred, means several generations off. Tightly inbred --- brother to sister same siblings. Loosely inbred -- brother to sister, not same litter.

[quote name='Poofy']I was using the word outcrossing, in reguards to if you bred to another breed...as the first post suggested. Sorry about that...I should have been more percise. I do agree with you...you can find health within the same breed, through out crossing, you need not "hybridize or cross breed" to achieve it.[/quote] Your defination of hybrid is different from many. Hybrid is when you cross two different species --- like a jack bred to a mare to produce a mule > the mule being a hybrid. Coyotes bred to wolves > produces a hybrid. Hybrids are usually sterile. It can be used to mean the same variety --- but usually, at least where I'm from, the circle of scientists I'm used to working with, do not use hybrid in that sense (either plant or animal).

[quote name='Poofy']Out crossing: Out crossing can be breeding to the same breed with no common relatives...or breeding to a different breed...depending on how you use the word. Its usually means within the same breed and cross or hybrid for mixing of two breeds...but I have used it both ways and so have other breeders. In many breeds, out crossing within the same breed is nearly impossible.[/quote] I think that is what I said also. Why do you consider outcrossing within the same breed nearly impossible, in many breeds?

[quote name='Poofy']Inbreeding: Inbreeding is the breeding of relatives. People often label breeding of half cousins or breeding two with distant grand parents, as line breeding, but in reality it is all the same, just to a different degree. Inbreeding has a different effect on large non related populations in comparison to populations that have a higher level of homozygosity. This is why inbreeding in zoos can cause so much damage...where in domesticated plants and animals there is not that much of a loss of fitness.[/quote] I'm not saying that you are wrong, .... only misinformed. Inbreeding CAN and DOES cause MUCH loss of fitness. Continual inbreeding, within the same lines, over and over using the same dogs --- DOES and WILL cause a loss.

[quote name='Poofy']Hobbit: You wrote"No so. Selective breeding....very strict breeding and a willingness to cull (severely, if needed) " I think you are splitting hairs. [color=red][b]Nope, not splitting hairs. [/b][/color] I never said for people not to breed selectively. [color=darkred][b]Didn't say you did.[/b][/color] I also said "I think the answer...in all honesty is for dog breeders to act like dog breeder and make the decisions that have to be made inorder to move a breed forward. " [b][color=red]Some breeders have different views as to how the breed needs to move forward and it ALL depends on what the judge likes. [/color][/b] My statement of "natural selection" was in reply to if you wanted total out crossing.....and the only way to achieve a truly very low COI and almost non exsistant genetic disease...would be to let dogs breed "as in nature". I am not willing to do that. I would rather have to face my genetic problems. [b][color=darkred]Maybe YOUR defination of "Outcrossing" is different than mine. Within the same line --- you can STILL achieve good genetic health without close inbreeding. We "Outcross" our cattle and goats to different breeds (Hereford to Angus and Boer to Myotonics, etc...) ---- we "outcross" our dogs within the same breed. [/color][/b] I Stated: By inbreeding, very heavily, in mutliple kennels, they were able to locate carriers, erradicate effecteds and reduce the problem....this same thing was done in collies in reguards to CEA. There are very few "debilitating" problems in reguards to collie eye. It still exsists, but mostly in a grade that does not impact the dog. You stated: You just contradicted the above statement. [color=red][b]You did contradict the statement --- but now I think that your defination of outcrossing is something different. [/b][/color] Yes I, was giving examples where inbreeding has proven to be a vaulable too...you also left out where I gave examples of out crossing helping the basengi breed here. [color=darkred][b]Yes, I did because it had nothing to do with the contradiction.[/b][/color] [/quote]

[quote name='roo']Well i have been watching this one for sometime now :-? i think i have read this whole thread about 20 times :lol: I feel the need to ask a few people a few questions :o Ok to Doc :lol: What do you class as inbreeding? How close how far apart are you talking here? By keeping in the same breed, what do you class as outcrossing? And again how far apart are you talking about? To Hmmmm :lol: Ok you inbreed, how far in will you go before you go out? To Hobbit :lol: Same question as Docs, [color=red][b]INBREEDING: the breeding of father to daughter, brother to sister, mother to son, 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister. LINEBREEDING: Uncle to niece, Aunt to nephew. [/b][/color] And also how big is your breeds gene pool? [color=darkred][b]The breed was developed in the 1800's and has continued to improve. Some say "Scanlon's Dell" can be found in most pedigrees. I do have pedigrees on all of my Kelpies, some dating back to the very first foundation sires and bitches. I would never, ever breed brother to sister or 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister from the same litter --- that is asking for mental and physical problems from hidden genes. It's not that I want to "hide" those genes, I just don't want them coming to the surface unnecessarily. The recessive genes (genetic defects -- both mental and physical) CAN be diluted to a point that they will only crop up in a 1 to million chance. I can achieve what is needed by other means of breeding. OUTCROSSING: breeding to another bloodline, WITHIN the same breed. [/b][/color] To Poofy :lol: Same questions as doc. I am asking these questions for a reason the way people use the inbreeding outcrossing words are often very mixed. Awaiting these replies with interest :lol:[/quote]

[quote][b]Poofy wrote: No I do not have a deep understanding, [/b]I am only a student. My molecular genetics sucks. [/quote]

I agree with Kiger and Horsefeathers. Bones, raw or cooked, DO splinter and CAN and DO sometimes become lodged in the digestive tract. If someone is going to promote BARF, then they should also state the possible effects that the diet could have on an animal.

Gee thanks Bullygirl, that was nice.

[quote name='Poofy'] The only way to truly "solve the problem" would be to allow dogs to breed uncontrolled and allow for survival of the fittest. I will take my genetic problems rather then that. [color=red][b]No so. Selective breeding....very strict breeding and a willingness to cull (severely, if needed)[/b][/color] By inbreeding, very heavily, in mutliple kennels, they were able to locate carriers, erradicate effecteds and reduce the problem....this same thing was done in collies in reguards to CEA. There are very few "debilitating" problems in reguards to collie eye. It still exsists, but mostly in a grade that does not impact the dog. [color=darkred][b]You just contradicted the above statement.[/b][/color] [/quote]

[quote name='Poofy'] I test for PRA, luxating patellas, heart problems, thyroid and leg perthes... Only phenotypic problems but very genetic. [/quote] PHENOTYPE: This is the "outward, physical manifestation" of the organism. These are the physical parts, the sum of the atoms, molecules, macromolecules, cells, structures, metabolism, energy utilization, tissues, organs, reflexes and behaviors; anything that is part of the observable structure, function or behavior of a living organism. GENOTYPE: This is the "internally coded, inheritable information" carried by all living organisms. This stored information is used as a "blueprint" or set of instructions for building and maintaining a living creature. These instructions are found within almost all cells (the "internal" part), they are written in a coded language (the genetic code), they are copied at the time of cell division or reproduction and are passed from one generation to the next ("inheritable"). These instructions are intimately involved with all aspects of the life of a cell or an organism. They control everything from the formation of protein macromolecules, to the regulation of metabolism and synthesis.

[quote name='Pennynewf']i looked for a webpage in your profile before asking, thought you might have a website on your herding. :) BTW i mostly outcross.[/quote] I am working on a website now, it's not quite finished.

[quote name='Poofy']You wrote: If you have a bag of red marbles and put them into a bag of blue marbles, it does not matter how many times you divide or dump those marbles, the red ones do not disapear. They are still there.[/quote] I love marbles and collect them. You can HOWEVER; add bigger marbles and more blue ones that when you place them in a sieve --- the big ones block the red ones from leaving the pool. With the added amount of blue ones, you can dilute the red ones to a point that 1 in a million may roll out of the bag every once in a while, instead of EVERY generation. :wink:

[quote name='Poofy'] And I have not disagreed with this at all. What I disagree with is blaming inbreeding for the problems, no matter what the breed. Inbreeding is not the problem....bad breeding is the problem.[/quote] Inbreeding will bring the genetic defects to the surface, so that line, bitch, or sire can be eliminated from the breeding program or test breedings can be conducted to pinpoint the culprit. This is not a 100% tool in removing the defects or unwanted genes. The gene can be "fixed" which is detrimental to the line (I'm strickly talking about inbreeding within the same line, here). Inbreeding CAN be a hugh problem, when conducted on a continual basis and when done by someone that does not have a working knowledge of genetics. Inbreeding does cause gene drifts and does allow for a much higher incidence of defect by the pairing of two recessive or impaired genes ---- which otherwise may not have been produced. Inbreeding can be used as a tool --- BUT for those who continue to inbreed, they are lighting the fuse that will someday explode on them. They are hurting their line mentally and / or physically.

[quote name='science_doc']Hobbit, The reasoning you give for livestock breeding is the very thought that made me start the thread. I suspect that people must not have a clear understanding of the inherent value of genetic diversity, and I think that perhaps because there are fewer dogs bred than livestock, dog breeders are just a bit behind in learning? This is the only explanation I can think of........there just haven't been enough overwhelming issues, because relatively fewer animals are being bred? For example, beef cattle must be born at a higher rate than great danes? [color=red][b]Yes, millions to supply the demand for food. [/b][/color] So dog breeders just don't get to see the problems appear as quickly within their lines? [color=darkred][b]Yes and no. Sometimes the first offspring experience detrimental effects, sometimes it occurs later in production. [/b][/color] Also perhaps as long as a "few" champions are produced, the dog breeders are willing to take their losses with the other "pet" quality animals? [color=red][b]That's my seeing with several breeders. They are willing to sacrifice a few puppies to get that one champion. [/b][/color] Farmers and ranchers should couldn't afford these type of problems in their herds. [b][color=darkred]Absolutely can not afford to lose a year's production because of sloppy breeding. [/color][/b] I don't know any of this as fact, I'm just wondering out loud how something that is taken for granted in the farming and science could be so grossly ignored by the dog breeding community? [color=red][b]Mostly lack of knowledge, unwillingness to change, and we don't eat our dogs --- usually. [/b][/color]I can't believe the rules for getting a dog papers would require the genetics of the gene pool closed, complete non-sense.[/quote]

Poofy continued inbreeding WILL cause gene drifts. Most knowledgable breeders recognized this, accept it and outcross. A breeder can not continue to inbreed for several generations without having detrimental effects on the future offspring(s), whether it be physical or mental. I don't want to compare human genetics --- because I don't care if humans breed themselves into extinction. :wink: It's ridiculous for someone that is a known carrier or affected for a severe genetic defect to have a child, knowing that the defect would be passed onto the offspring. It's not fair for the child. Adoption is always an option.

[quote name='Hmmmm']Im no scientist and dont know a whole lot about genetics but in my breed inbreeding is VERY important. The worst effect I have seen is with my VERY tight Tab bitch. Her pedigree is as such... Tab is her father, bred to Irene III, who is a daughter of Tab. Irene III is out of Jeep bred back to another daughter of Jeep. Tab is a son of Jeep. She is pretty tightly bred and her only defect... an extra tit. Oh, and I bred my Tab bitch back to a son of Jeep bred back to another daughter of his. I have other dogs bred tighter than she is and not one of them has anything wrong with them. BUT I will not breed a dog with any type of defect and I think that has a lot to do with it.[/quote] Tell me reason(s) why "inbreeding it VERY important" in APBT.

[quote name='Pennynewf']Hobbit what breed is in your avatar, he/she is handsome. also just curious, do you breed or have you?[/quote] She is an Australian Kelpie. Yes, we do breed --- herding dogs for herding livestock.

Did she think that you wouldn't check with the vet? :roll:

Thanks K --- Science Doc --- we have manipulated genetics to produce better goats, swine, cattle, horses and even people. Why not dogs? Would someone rather have the mind set, so closed minded that they would be willing to ignore the possible outcome if breeding is continued on the path that it's going down? To produce better meat goats, outcrossing is sometimes necessary. For example: breeding a Boer to a Myotonic, then crossing back to a Boer. Or, breeding a Boer to a Spanish, crossing back to a Boer, then crossing to a Myotonic. Same with cattle: Brahma to Short Horn, crossed back to a Brahma. Several combinations of cattle have been tried and proven to yield better cattle, more disease resistance, better production, etc... I know someone will scream that I'm comparing the beloved dog to livestock. Not really ---- just the same manipulation could be done to produce better offspring. Even within the same breed.

I do have to chuckle about the cow herd. If a person uses the same bull over and over, for many years --- production will.....let me see if I can put this in a term that everyone will understand....SUCK. There will be genetic monstrosities produced, milk production will dimenish (I'm talking milk for offspring), fertility will be affected, mothering ability, calving ease, birth weight, rate of gain....etc... Intense inbreeding/linebreeding of this nature is not something that can continue for many generations. A NEW bull (with new bloodlines) needs to be introduced into the herd. One that comes from producing parents to improve your herd. Sheep, goats, horses and swine are the same way. Dogs are too. You've probably seen it and just didn't realize it. One dog wins and he becomes the most popular sire in town. If he is a carrier for a genetic defect --- this isn't something that anyone cares about -- Noooo, they only care that he is a champion and they want to breed to him in an effort to produce a champion from their bitch --- not caring about the consequences of the genetic defect on the offspring.