What do you think?

[Rosebud]

:D

[quote]Lamb Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Ground Yellow Corn, Oatmeal, Chicken Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat (preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Citric Acid, and Rosemary Extract), Corn Germ Meal (Dry Milled), Brewers Dried Yeast, Fish Meal, Flaxseed, Dried Egg Product, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal Sterol (source of Vitamin D3), Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenate Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Inositol, Dehydrated Kelp, SQM

[Mary's Mama]

It looks OK. Meaning medium or average quality.

My biggest concern with Lamb based food is a lack of taurine. All lamb based diets should include an added taurine supplement, this food does not. I also dont care for corn (listed twice) and added salt and kelp (very salty anyway).

However much better than some of the other foods we have seen.

[RR]

I've seen this label before.............. do tell! ;)

I dont care for the corn and would prefer to see the meat sources ahead of the grains, dont like the salt. I'm happy to see the supplements (folic acid, vit e, acidophilus etc) in there but wonder what grade they are.



Kelp is very good for dogs.

I always read that (unless vegetarian) dogs do not need taurine added as they can make their own from vit B - its cats that need taurine in their diets. Care needs to be taken if a taurine supplement is give to dogs with specific conditions.

[Mary's Mama]

RR- I agree that kelp is very good for dogs but it has quite a bit of salt in it already, so to have kelp and salt listed means this food has ALOT of salt which isn't necessary.

Also, here is an article regarding taurine deficiency in dogs.
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/lamb_rice_diets.htm

This website has very good nutritional information and I have faith in her research.

[Rosebud]

:D

Thanks for your input.

I too am not to wild about all the salt either. I was pretty impressed with the guarantee analysis and the quality statement. This is what I have been feeding since the pups could eat, they both have beatiful coats and I have not had any allergy problems with it. Sally grew proportional the whole time she was growing. I kept waiting for her to go through the ugly ackward stage where her legs where to long for her body and her knees and elbows looked huge and it never happened. Very healthy stools that have always been regular. I do add cooked meats & veggies to the kibble and always add broth. I also supplement with grade A yogurt but I didn't start doing all that til the pups were 9 months old. I am wondering if this is a good food to feed with the added meat & veggies or if I need to switch to something else. It is a puppy and active large breed formula so it should be o.k. to keep them on it permanately.

Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein min. 23.0%
Crude Fat min. 12.0%
Crude Fiber max. 3.5%
Moisture max. 10.0%

Calcium min. 1.5%
Phosphorus min. 1.0%
Vitamin A min. 22,000 IU/kg.
Vitamin E min. 165 IU/kg.
Glucosamine min. 400ppm
Omega 6 min. 1.6%
Omega 3 min. 0.17%*

*not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO dog food nutrient profile.

Here's the quality statement.

formulas are the ideal mixer for BARF diets, ingredients are human-grade, all natural, with added vitamins and minerals. Trace minerals are sequestered (kelp coated) to keep vitamins from being destroyed. A total of 8 or more 'Wellness For Life Nutrition™ ingredients provide optimum health to the pet. These ingredients include digestive enzymes, prebiotics, probiotics, SQM™ (the science of sequestering), yucca, OMEGA HEALTH™, AQUA-C™, the 3 primary antioxidants, and higher overall levels of vitamins and minerals. Contrary to what you may hear, wellness ingredients that could be destroyed during the cooking process are added after cooking and after the food has cooled to room temperature. We are a family owned company, have been making pet food for 30 years and have more experience than anyone, in effectively adding these wellness ingredients.

and here's their statement on the corn:

Carbohydrates are used in pet food primarily to provide energy. Energy is required for the central nervous system, normal and high levels of physical activity and is also needed when anabolic activities like gestation, lactation and growth are proceeding at a high rate. With little or no dietary carbohydrates available there is added strain on fat and protein. This extra burden on fats and proteins can cause serious problems at birthing time.(1) Judicious use of carbohydrates in a meat-based formula, i.e. corn not listed first on the ingredient panel, is a nutritionally healthy use of corn and other quality carbohydrates.

(1) Hypoglycemia prior to welping, reduced plasma concentrations, reduced number of live births, lethargy, reduced mothering ability, fetal abnormalities, embryo resorption and reduced milk production.

It Is Not A Filler...
While we believe in meat-based diets, meaning meat should be listed first on the ingredient panel, corn makes an important nutritional contribution to the formula, as noted above; fillers, such as wheat mids and peanut hulls, do not.

Rarely Does Corn Cause Allergies...
A complete literature review shows that corn is rarely incriminated as causing allergies. "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition" addresses this twice: "There have been only six confirmed cases of allergy to corn in dogs reported in the veterinary literature out of 253 total cases." "Corn is a nutritionally superior grain compared with others used in pet foods because it contains a balance of nutrients not found in other grains. Corn provides a highly available source of complex carbohydrates and substantial quantities of linoleic acid, an essential fatty acid important for healthy skin. Corn also provides essential amino acids and fiber. In a survey of veterinary dermatologists, corn was not listed among the ingredients most often suspected to cause food allergies. A review of over 200 confirmed canine cases of food allergy in the veterinary literature revealed only three were caused by corn."

A Very Digestible Carbohydrate...
One pet food company that does not have ready access to corn states, rather crudely, that look how corn comes out after we eat corn on the cob and therefore it can't be very digestible. This company knows full well that corn is ground very finely before it is added to the pet food formula. According to "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition", 4th Edition, "Several reports (3) indicate that dogs and cats readily digest starches in commercial pet foods. In studies, dogs were fed foods in which 30 to 57% of the food came from extruded corn, barley, rice or oats. The starch was nearly 100% digested in the small intestine." As a total ingredient, corn is 91% digestible.

Non-GMO, Pesticide Free...
Our corn is non-GMO. We buy it from area farmers personally known to us for over 30 years. It is bought fresh during the harvest. The balance is stored locally, until the next harvest. No pesticides are used from the day the seed is planted until the corn is harvested.

The above information came from a highly respected source with no ax to grind. Will a few dogs be allergic to corn? Yes. Can someone find a piece of research (credible or not) that incriminates corn? Probably. It is hard to do the math because some base numbers are not available, but probably only one dog out of several hundred thousand dogs are likely to be allergic to corn. With an ingredient that quality research shows to be an excellent ingredient, why would you not want to food it as the carbohydrate component in the diet?

Sources: The information above was drawn from fifteen research studies as listed in "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition" 4th Edition.

"The Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog". Wendy Volhard and her husband, Jack, train dogs and conduct "Camps" on dog training, nutrition, and holistic care. Howell Book House recently published a second edition of "The Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog". Volhard regards carbohydrates as crucial for a dog's health, and utilizes grains as the major provider of carbohydrates.

RR wrote

...would prefer to see the meat sources ahead of the grains...

Lamb Meal
The rendered product from lamb tissues but does not include added blood, hair, hooves, horn, hide trimmings, stomach or rumen contents. A good source of protein, fat, calcium and phosphorus.

Meat/Beef/Lamb/Veal/Venison
The clean flesh derived from mammals limited to striate tissue found in muscle, tongue, diaphragm, heart or esophagus. If from a particular source it may state so (i.e. lamb, beef, calves/deer etc). An excellent source of protein, and fat.

In dog food ingredient listings Meal means the Meat has had the water rendered and the ingredient is weighed dry not wet.

Source: FDA consumer information

For example, one pet food may list "meat" as its first ingredient, and "corn" as its second. The manufacturer doesn't hesitate to point out that its competitor lists "corn" first ("meat meal" is second), suggesting the competitor's product has less animal-source protein than its own. However, meat is very high in moisture (approximately 75% water). On the other hand, water and fat are removed from meat meal, so it is only 10% moisture (what's left is mostly protein and minerals). If we could compare both products on a dry matter basis (mathematically "remove" the water from both ingredients), one could see that the second product had more animal-source protein from meat meal than the first product had from meat, even though the ingredient list suggests otherwise.

:angel:

[Kiger]

Eaglepack, huh? :P

[Mary's Mama]

I hear that it is the best food for large breeds, glad you are having a great experience with it. Did you check out the Great Dane Lady's website I posted above? She works intimately with EaglePack and has helped them developed their products over the years. You should have a look some time.

[Rosebud]

:D

Just checked it out. I didn't know that about an all Lamb diet. I chose Eagle Natural, glad I did.

I really do love the food, and the babies love it too. I feed two cups each dry kibble in the morning, they nibble what they want to. Then I give two & half cups of kibble and the "good stuff" for their evening meal and they love that too. The bag says 5-6 cups a day for their weight but since I feed people dog food I only give them 4 1/2 cups of kibble a day.

I haven't heard anyone else mention this food so I was beginning to wonder if it was the best thing to be feeding my babies.

:angel:

[RR]

True, i don't hear a lot about this brand either - but the 2002 Whole Dog Journal list Eagle Pack as one of their top 10 recommended foods. I do like the 23% protein level, many other brands are higher - which I dont like. If your dogs are doing well on it and it sounds as though they are .... then perfect :)

I own Volhards book which i find useful in areas. We feed a BARF diet consisting of meat, bone, veggies and fruit and no grains (except what is in some of their treat biscuits). I know Volhard is big on the use of grains. Dogs also get carbohydrates from veggies and fruit.

[Rosebud]

RR napisał(a):

...I own Volhards book which i find useful in areas. We feed a BARF diet consisting of meat, bone, veggies and fruit and no grains (except what is in some of their treat biscuits). I know Volhard is big on the use of grains. Dogs also get carbohydrates from veggies and fruit.

RR & Mary's mama - What are your feelings about their comments on corn?

:angel:

[Mary's Mama]

My feelings on corn???

I DONT KNOW!! I feel kind of the same way about it as I do BARF. There is so much literature for each side of the story I can't figure out who to believe.

I think that they make some great points and could possibly be right (so could other people though). The best I can tell is that whole ground corn is okay but the more it is processed into meal, gluten etc the worse it gets and if a food has multiple types of processed corn that is not good either. Because I do trust the Eagle Pack Co I would use their food regardless, but that is only due to their reputation. Other foods with tons of corn scare me. The big danger I see in some foods is that the corn is used as a filler rather than a nutritional element, which I do not believe is the case with EP.

I dont read alot about the EP here but another board I go to (www.i-dog.com), they are firm believers in it.

Does any of that make sense??

FYI - I feed Solid Gold, and have used Wellness. I am working on rotating every 8-12 months. Can't decide what is next yet, maybe I will use Linda's diet for the small dog.

[RR]

I was never an advocate of corn in the diet primarily because I could not be sure of the grade and quality, nor was I convinced it had any benefits. Many sources say there is no nutritional value to corn, other sources claim that if in the whole form, it can be good. Corn is often given a bad rap as part of a marketing ploy. Some companies claim corn is in their food for a reason, not just a filler. There is grade 1 corn that some brands use - usually in its whole form. Other companies that sell cheap food use corn as a filler because they can get it cheap. The cheaper grades of corn are often covered in molds and spores - another reason why people don't like it. Unless a brand states "whole corn" theres no telling what part of the "corn" is used - be it the husk, corn "meal", gluten etc., anything not whole which has even less of a nutritional value. Many times an animal fed food with this "bad corn" will develop allergies and vets often relate it to corn.

I suppose comes down to the source.

[Rosebud]

:wink:

Thanks that helps me alot. Like Mary stated I don't think I have anything to worry about with the corn in this particular brand.

I do know that the corn germ meal is the nice plump heart of the the kennel that has had the water taken out and feel that if they take the time to get pesticide free corn then they're not going to skimp on processing it poorly.

:angel: