imported_Cassie

What I would do if this were my dog is to give him another default behavior which I find acceptable. Basically it is the NIFIL policy which I found worked great for my dogs. I rescued a Rottie and Dobie with horrible manners, and I own 4 Newfoundlands which came straight from a kennel (they were mature not pups) I had to teach all of my dogs manners especially when it came feeding time etc. As you already know a dog will repeat an action which will bring it rewards. If a dog finds that whining is going to magically make food appear, give it attention and pats, etc. etc. of course the dog is going to continue this behavior...Toto has learned that this is what he has to do to get what he wants. I would ignore him when he starts whining and perhaps put him in his crate...when he is quiet then take him out and pay attention to him and reward him for being quiet. When feeding time is near and Toto starts whining, ignore his whining...,make him sit...do not give him his dinner until he stops whining...it will take awhile; but, if you continue rewarding for the behavior you desire (sit at the door to go out, sit for dinner etc.) then Toto will repeat the good behavior. As for bathroom breaks, get Toto on a set schedule and stick to it...take him out 1st thing in the morning, 15-20 minutes after meals, midday, supper and then before bed time. All of my dogs are on set schedules for bathroom..and they will not go to the bathroom in my yard...they will only go on their walks. So this could be some thing you could get Toto used to ....take him for a walk for his potty times and get him on a set schedule. As for myself, I don't like dogs whining, or barking to get attention, food etc. I have always trained my dogs that if they want to go out side (emergency time) then they will come in and nudge me and run over to the out side door and sit and wait for old mom to come let them out...and they only use this in an emergency...for example diarrhea. They have set feeding schedules, and while I am preparing their food I have them all sit and wait for dinner. They have learned that if they sit and act wonderful their foood will get to them much quicker. You can train Toto to communicate to you without whining...reward for the behaviors you want and ignore the behaviors you don't want. :wink: Good luck to you, and it will take a little time to change this whining behavior which has worked so well for Toto for quite some time.

[quote]if you lock up your place with your dogs inside, and there's an emergency like a fire, no one can get them out --right? so that may not be the best solution??? [/quote] When you rent space, you have to give a key to your locks to your landlord. They are to have access to your facility during an emergency. You cannot just go out and buy locks and make it into a fortress :wink: In the case of my boss she was given keys to the locks on the doors. The vet who owns the facility has a key for access in case of an emergency and in her absense the office manager has a key. You cannot just lock every one out of a space you are renting...but, you can lock out people who do not have your permission to come onto your rental space. [quote]But you could try something with the guy that I did once. Now, you guys know I don't cuss. but I got right in his face and said, you get your @#$%$ a** outta here and don't come back, and I won't charge you with [animall cruelty, in your case] and criminal trespass.[/quote] For one thing that would start bad feelings between the grooming shop and vet clinic. You cannot charge some one with animal cruelity without hard facts and this would also look very bad on the judgement of the vet clinic...this would cause very bad feelings...if you have a close relationship with the vet who owns the facility have a long heart to heart with her/him. Explain your feelings (I know you already tried this approach) and advise him/her why you feel the need to lock your doors and you feel you are being voilated. Look at your lease or rental agreement. In all legal rights the kennel hand is not trespassing as long as he has permission from the landlord to go onto the renters property. This also is another issue you should bring up to the owner. Advise your landlord that under no circumstances is this person allowed assess to your shop at any time.

[quote]Why did you title your post "my murderously aggressive pit bulls?" You didn't do this because you wanted people to think that your dogs truly were "murderously aggressive," did you? You were being sarcastic, and sneering at the notion that people think that high levels of aggression in pit bulls presents a big problem. At least that is the implication, isn't it? [/quote] This was exactly my thought when I read the title of this post. [quote]Well...now it turns out that you have two pit bulls who can't be together, even with supervision. That would be a big and quite heartbreaking problem for most dog owners because it is a huge hassle but much more so because it means that the dogs (the ultimate pack animals) must be isolated and ignored far more of the time[/quote]. I completely agree, I have always owned a multie dog house hold and not once have I had a problem which would have forced me to seperate my dogs. There is no greater joy than to have all 6 of my dogs play together, sleep together and eat together...even share a bone. I own 3 females, and 3 males...2 males which are intact. [quote]So while I can certainly understand that you don't feel the need to shove the dog aggression issue down people's throats with every post, when you quite directly post something that (falsely) implies that aggression is not an issue with these particular pit bulls (and quite directly sneer at people who raise the issue), it seems to me that you are not helping pit bulls and not spreading accurate information. As to your suggestion that people will read a factual post about pit bulls and decide that that means that they have locking jaws and swelling brains, I don't quite get your logic. Why would telling the truth make people more likely to believe things that aren't true? Nobody here said pit bulls have something "wrong with their brains" (although I would argue that it is very wrong to breed dogs who have this trait) but there is definately something different in the pit bull brain that causes them to tend to be dog aggressive, sometimes, sadly, to the point where it has a pretty serious impact on their quality of life. (Particularly in multiple dog households). [/quote] Most terriers do have a tendancy to be dog aggressive. There were studies done on fox terriers and beagles. 2 litters were brought up together...the beagles did not show any signs of dog aggression and were more than happy to play amoung themselves avoiding the Terriers. The Terriers also avoided each other and perferred to try to dominant the beagles...even as puppies. I just wanted to add as well...I own a Rottie with a very high prey drive. She lives with 3 cats and I have also fostered baby rabbits as well. My Rottie was motherly towards the baby rabbits and loves my cats...they sleep together etc. If I were to throw a peice of hamburg on the floor my Rottie will wait while the cats eat it first...then once they are finished she will then eat what is left over. But, if my Rottie were to see a strange cat in the yard which was AFRAID of her and tried to run...this in turn would trigger her chase motor pattern...if the cat was not frightened and walked up to her she would then be friendly. This is were I think people become confused, you may own a dog with a high predatory drive which will only display the predatory motor patterns when the animal runs from it...this is completely different from dog aggression. You could also own a breed of dog with a high prey drive which is completely non human aggressive (and one more thing human aggression in our dogs is more often a learned behavior rather than an inherit behavior). I could have my dog with a high predatory drive be completely wonderful and friendly towards every one it meets, the dog could be submissive etc. towards humans....but, have the same dog meet a fearful person or a child frightened and running away this can trigger the chase behavior...for most breeds the full series of predatory motor patterns have been rearranged or deselected making the end of the chase less serious...but, with breeds with the full series of predatory behaviors such as Terriers...the end result can lead to a mauling episode. It is not aggression, it is bred into them for related job tasks required by man...why delete any of the motor patterns of an APBT??? you want them to fight and you want them to have more drive to fight...this is purposely bred into these dogs. This is one aspect of dog ownership which bothers me. The breed is bred to be non human aggressive...believe me any dog can learn to be human aggressive, in most cases this is a learned behavior. There was a girl in my area of the world who bought an APBT (well bred) just for the fact that they were supposed to be non human aggressive...the dog mauled her so bad she ended up in the hospital and she barely got away from her own dog by locking herself in her bathroom and yelling out her window. The scariest thing was the APBT due to having such powerful drives did not calm down at all and had to be shot when the police arrived. The dog was well loved and spoiled...it became top dog, when the owner did some thing the dog didn't approve of it took into her...the women started screaming and tried to run which in turn made the attack esculate. Possibly this owner could have ruined any dog...this was her first dog she had owned...but, the out come of the attack was by far worse than what she may have received from a breed without the full series of predatory motor patterns and the enhanced drives. I am not trying to belittle any one who owns breeds with the full series of motor patterns. I own a dog with a very high prey drive myself...I have also dealt with dogs on many occasions with high prey drives which were very very friendly and a dream to work with. In one case 3 Rotties which were very human friendly ended up mauling a little boy to death due to the child being frightened of them and screaming...the dogs go into what is called "predatory drift" were they no longer associate the screaming object as a child but rather a prey object. It can happen, and it does happen...it would be a much safer world out there if people understood this can happen, although in very isloated incidents. With these dogs they will be very human friendly, sweet and loving...a confident person will have no problems around them. But, with alot of dogs a fearful person or fearful child will trigger the chase behavior...its a scary world when we arm ourselves with dogs which can be potentially dangerous to fearful people and children...if you look at most of the mauling cases they usually involve children of fearful people. There are all kinds of different types of aggression which can lead to a bite...I am only discussing one behavior which is the predatory behavior which is can not really be classified as aggression as this is bred into the breed...or rather enhanced. :wink: Just my take on things, and I really don't care if any one argues that I am wrong. I have seen too much in my 20+ years of working with dogs.

I love going to obedience classes in the summer, we always had picnics and BBQ's for every one in class. I hope you enjoy your self. What I did with my dog aggressive Rottie, I desensitized her to other dogs, bike riders, etc. any thing that made her offensive or put her into predatory drift. When I saw a potential "problem" coming along be is dog etc. I would start talking in an uppity happy voice. Then I would start giving Athena treats and reward her for looking at me...I taught her the look at me command ASAP :lol: I would continue rewarding her until we had passed by the dog or other "problem objects". It takes awhile and it was easier to get her to obey the look at me command when passing by other dogs her size (small prey object dogs were a little harder). I never made her sit when we were passing the other dog. I just kept walking, talking, treating etc. She started to realize that the pleasure of rewards out weighed the pleasure of lunging at other dogs. I found this method worked also when bike riders would pass us along the trails, ATV's, etc. The trick was, I always caught her attention before she became "focused" on the other dog. Once they go into that focus stage its hard to get them to pay attention to you...and I learned to never ever get mad at her, or even to try and tell her "no" etc. that can make the situation much much worse. Just think if you spotted your favorite movie star that you have been in lust with for years and one of your friends is pulling on your top saying "kendalyn...NO...don't look at him!!!! look at me!!!!" but if your friend were to come up with an even sexier super star, this would take your focus off the other one as the reward is of equal or greater value :wink: So, always carry fantasik treats which are of great value to Buck...the rewards he receives for not freaking out and instead behaving will make him repeat the good behavior. My favorite saying is success builds confidence, removes confusion...by rewarding Buck you are showing him the proper behavior in a stressful situation. Don't expect any sudden changes over night, it took me a year to build my Rottie into the wonderful canine citizen she is today. You may also want to purchase a couple of Newfoundland dogs for your training sessions with Buck...Newf's are great dogs for calming other dog aggressive dogs :wink: :lol: Just one last thing, please do not resort to an electric shock collar. Some people may have had success with one of these collars...but, for every one I know who has tried them they have seen immediate results...and then the dog goes back to square one and is worse. I am helping a friend of mine who was using an e-collar on his Bull Mastiff for dog aggression...the dog is now associating the other dogs with pain and it has esculated his aggression. Some may say he was using the collar wrong...but, he had training with a friend of his who is on the Canine unit with the police dept who has many years of experience training with these collars. I know it was probably unnecessary to add the part about the e-collars...but, I just thought I'd mention it. Use positive training, not negetive training. It may take awhile longer training with positive only training...but, the end result is you have a dog which "wants" to do things for you and is not afraid of trying new things. :wink:

Your pup has ear mites, they are very itchy and can be painful...I have seen many dogs with ear infections drop their ears when being treated...I have even seen cats drop their ears or carry them low when being treated for ear mites. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Treat your pups ears until your rid of the ear mites....once healthy and happy the ears will go up. Most animals find treatments in their ears to be unpleasant and will hold their ears down...its quite normal.

HF, definately get locks put on those doors leading to the vet clinic. My boss has had simular problems with her grooming shop. She rents space from a Vet clinic ( and she pays dearly for the space) and yet the vet clinic seems to consider the grooming shop a part of the daily tour. They hire a new Vet, "well, here are our kennels, our kitchen, bathrooms, and here is our bottom dweller the groomers and here is her hired help...and lets take a look at the Newfoundland dogs..." we are part of the tour, this ticks my boss off to no end, but, she doesnt have the personality to confront the upstairs "people". Its pretty bad when you have a nervous dog on the table and your scissoring around the eye area when your back door opens with a gang of people taking a tour :evil: The vets have brought down dog food representatives, sales people, friends, family, new hires etc. We also had problems with one of the kennel hands who works upstairs. My boss allowed me to leave Beau at the grooming shop at night when I first rescued him. I didn't think it was a good idea to take him home to meet my other 5 dogs until I got him back to health and got him neutered...especially since I already had 2 intact male Newf's and my bitch was just coming into season. The kennel hands were allowed to come down and take Beau out for bathroom breaks during the evening. But, this one certain kennel hand we asked he not be allowed down with Beau...but, he did end up taking Beau out, and not that he did any thing... I just never trusted him. Especially since we caught him spraying the Vets Cockatoo birds with a water pistol in the dead of winter....the birds could have easily gotten pnemonia. We also caught this kennel hand hanging a dog on a lead, shaking the Cockatoo's cage so the birds almost fell off their perches etc. he just seems to be a mean kid. :-? We also mentioned our concerns to the Vet who owns the clinic. She just nodded her head and has kept him on :roll: what can ya do??? obviously not much. My boss keeps her doors leading to the clinic locked when she is not there. It was when she started noticing money missing from her cash box that she started becoming VERY concerned. Its not fair that you can rent space and not have any privacy...you don't see us sneaking upstairs and stealing the morphine or other drugs when we feel like it. Nor do we take our new clients upstairs for a tour when they come in for their first appointment. Believe me HF, my boss could really emphasize with you and what you are going through.

One thing I will add...I do not feed hot dogs to my dogs, nor do I eat hot dogs myself. That is one processed food you will not find in my home.

I feed a variety of different foods in my dogs diet. It includes kibble (wellness or solid gold), cooked meats, steamed veggies, fruits, some nuts & seeds and I do feed raw meat on occasion-always have...not as a full time diet. I do give my dogs raw meaty bones all the time...I have for years and have never had a dog suffer from pancreatitis. Acutally at the vet clinic I work at the rise in dogs with pancreatitis fed only kibble diets has increased significantly in the past few years. We are treating more dogs with this ailment and diabetes than any thing else and this is from dogs and cats on a kibble diet. I was talking to my mother asking her what they fed their dogs when they were kids living on a farm (back in the 1930's) she said when thier father butchered a chicken or cow etc. the dogs got what was left over of the carcass. The cats lived on what they killed in the barn and an occasional saucer of milk...mom said it never stopped the cats from reproducing (mass producing). Kinda sad, but, back in those days when they had over abundance of cats/kittens running around granddad would have to "take care of the over surplus". :( Mom said they never heard of kibble back when she was growing up and it never hurt their dogs at all to eat raw foods and left overs. She had a collie mix and a lab mix which lived to be over 15 years old. I'm not saying that what was written in the article is not correct. I am sure there have been alot of dogs suffer from being on the BARF diet. I for one believe in variety in my dogs life. I don't have a problem feeding raw a few times a week. :wink: I do think some people get a little too caught up in the BARF diet. Here is just some info I thought some people may find interesting. [quote]It is more than safe to say that diseases such as Cancer are not caused by cooking your meat.[/quote] If meat is cooked properly it is not cancerous. But, it is cancerous if you over cook it or slightly blacken the animal flesh...it then becomes carcinogenic. Regarding the write up on toxoplasmosis (parasite) here is some interesting information on that particualr parasite [quote]In the United States, people are much more likely to become infected with toxoplasmosis through eating raw meat (pork) than from handling cat feces. People also become infected by eating unwashed fruits and vegetables. Do not just focus on cats. It is unlikely you will become infected by petting an infected cat. The oocysts do not tend to stick to the fur like roundworm eggs might. The cat, while grooming, would generally remove any oocysts on the fur, before they become infective. It is unlikely that you can become infected through cat bites or scratches. What are my health risks if my cat tests positive for toxoplasmosis? As odd as it may seem, a healthy cat that tests positive is probably safer than a cat that tests negative. Let us explain that. Cats that test positive have been exposed to toxoplasmosis. They have developed strong immunity to T. gondii, which means they are very unlikely to become infected again and pass oocysts if they are re-exposed to T. gondii within a year of their first infection. Over half of the cats that have become infected have immunity for up to 6 years. Negative cats, however, have no immunity or protection against becoming infected with T. gondii. If they become infected, they will pass oocysts in their feces that can infect humans and other animals.[/quote]

I use hand and voice commands. My dogs respond to both wonderfully. I use only voice commands when competing though. And when I am walking on the ocean with the loud roar of the ocean, hand signals and a whistle come in handy :wink:

Call the SPCA and report her. In my area they will confiscate a dog which is being neglected.

Actually there have been a few times I have been surprised to learn that a mixed breed actually is what they say. :o there have been a few dogs I have seen that I would never have guessed at being perhaps a lab mix or Newf mix...what ever...then come to find out that the momma living at home which actually gave birth is a Lab. I also had a border collie- Lab mix when I was younger which I adopted from a neighbor...so I knew my little girls momma, and her possible daddy...although it could have been any dog in the neighborhood . My little dog looked more like a small greyhoundish type dog with long feathering on its tail and ears and legs...she was an odd looking little thing....she didn't look like a lab at all, not in the ears, body, face...nothing. But, her momma was a Lab which got out and ran into a border collie, this is what you would call wrong time, wrong place :lol: I think alot of times at shelters the staff is over worked and under staffed and they just go by what ever the people tell them who drop them off. It is also easier to adopt out a Lab mix than perhaps a Pit mix. I can also tell you I have seen some purebred Lab's which look more like BIG Rottweilers with out the docked tail or markings. Lab's vary in shapes, sizes, head shapes etc. so do most breeds of dogs...remember, our purebreds where all mixed breeds in the beginning before they were considered purebreds. Although our Lab's are more of a natural breed than others. I had a purebred Newf in for boarding last week straight from Newfoundland which looked more like a small grey retriever than any Newf I would have recognized...I really had a hard time coming to terms with the fact it was a registered purebred Newf. it had a long face, I mean really long some what like a collie's except thicker, long ears- very unNewflike, very long legs and long body with a sleek build. I don't think any breed expert would have been able to pick that dog and guess at the proper breed. I just wanted to add that at all the dog related jobs I have (vet clinic, boarding kennel and grooming facility) we just put down on the file what ever the owner tells us to. It doesnt mean we don't know what we are looking at, but, with mixed breeds its pretty hard to tell...and what if the dog is a purebred mongrel with no purebreds in its back ground...well, then you are just going to write down which breed it most resembles so people will be able to visualize the appearance of the dog...for example if I put on a file a Labx, border collie x, or Newf x..then when I have them coming in for an appointment I can guess at appox. the size and coat of the dog. :wink:

[quote]We also have had alot of cases at the Vet clinic where little dogs have been horribly mauled by large dogs due to being mistaken as prey objects, some little dog owners have actually had off lead large dogs grab their little dogs while they are holding them and try to tear them out of the owners arms...this can be very scary for a small dog owner. [/quote] I meant to add that some of the large dogs where off lead and many of them were on lead and were with owners who did not have much control over their "big" dog, and some owners had lots of control over their big dogs which suddenly attacked the small dogs. We had an American Staffordshire terrier grab a little dog out of an owners arms while in the waiting room at the vet clinic I work at. The Staff went into predatory drift, when a dog goes into this state they do not give any warning they are going to attack as they are now "hunting"...the lady with the little dog in her arms was standing talking to one of the receptionists and the owner of the Staff walked up and stood beside the owner and had her Staff sit down (the Staff was very well obedience trained and has a CD obedience title)...the next thing we know all hell breaks loose and the Staff has the little dog by the leg...between the owner of the little dog and the little dog screetching it was horrible. The little dog had multiple bite marks on its little leg and required stitches. The owner of the Staff kept saying over and over again that this has never happened before and her dog is usually well behaved & well trained...well, there is always that one time isnt there. Just to add to the topic, small dogs can be very misbehaved and most behavior problems are due to bad ownership. But, a large breed can be dangerous and down right scary with bad ownership...bad owner ship comes in many different forms from not enough education to owners enticing bad behavior. Just today I went up town for the first time in...I think years :o and I was horrified to see the amount of bad owners with Rottweilers and APBT's, Staff's etc. It seemed they were on every street corner hangin out with a gang of teenagers or young adults...these dogs were BAD, lunging at passing people etc. It makes me wonder why more is not done with these creeps with these horrible dogs. The young fellows were laughing and encouraging their dogs when they displayed this horrible behavior. The dogs were on lead which means they were not disobeying any leash laws. As for American Cocker spaniels...I just love these dogs, they are great to work on. The worst ones I have seen with bad temperments are either from bad breeding (over bred) or due to having severe ear infections or ear problems. This can make our little Cocker's very cranky, and its surprising how many we come across in a week which are suffering from chronic ear infections...this can make these little dogs very defensive about people touching them around the head area. We also have alot of English Cockers which come in for grooming, they have a nice temperment. We have a very large clientel of Cockers at the grooming shop.

The biggest problem with our small dogs is first, owners are more apt to coddle their little dogs in times of stress. Working in a grooming shop I see this all the time, owner comes in with small dog in her arms...of course the little dog is going to be defensive in the arms of its owner. I ask the owner to pass the little dog to me, little dog starts barking and growling...owner takes back little dog and hugs it telling the little dog that every thing is going to be alright in a soft tone of voice...thus, the owner is reinforcing a bad behavior and actually teaching the dog that it should be defensive towards strangers approaching. I see this with big dogs as well. Another issue with small dogs is size does matter. Dogs are great at reading body language, there is nothing more assertive and dominant than another dog or human leaning over the small dog...this is very intimidating to any dog, and this happens ALOT with small dogs...I can't tell you the number of customers we have with small dogs who get very frustrated with naive people who rush up to see their little dog and then stand over the dog, or bend over it to pet it. I have seen alot of big dogs react in a bad way to people bending over them and trying to pet them on the head...it can be even worse for a small dog. People almost lose their senses when it comes to small dogs and approach them in completely the wrong way, we are more apt to ask before approaching a large dog, and when people approach a large dog they will most times approach them in a less threatening manner than they would with a small dog. One of the reasons little dogs sometimes get an attitude about big dogs is that owners tend to panic when they see a big dog approaching. The owners's stress transmits to the small dog, who than becomes anxious herself. If you grab your little dog every time another dog approaches, it will increase her stress and the potential for a confrontation. It is a normal reaction with alot of small dog owners to pick their little dog up and carry it...and in some cases there is just cause. My Rottie looks at little dogs as prey objects and she does go into predatory drift when she sees a little dog. We also have had alot of cases at the Vet clinic where little dogs have been horribly mauled by large dogs due to being mistaken as prey objects, some little dog owners have actually had off lead large dogs grab their little dogs while they are holding them and try to tear them out of the owners arms...this can be very scary for a small dog owner. Little dogs need special training, they also just as big dogs should have the NIFIL policy in place. We also have alot of owners of small dogs who come in to the grooming shop who cannot brush their little dogs...the reason behind this, is the dogs doesnt like it :o all dogs even little dogs should be handled and taught to appreciate grooming sessions :wink: Any dog can be spoiled, I have seen some very spoiled little dogs, perhaps more so than large dogs as we cannot put up with as much bad behavior from our large dogs as they can be a bigger problem. I have had to deal with many spoiled large dogs, and I will say I would much rather deal with 10 small spoiled untrained dogs than 1 spoiled untrained Chow or Rottie...I value my face and don't like the thought of ending up in the hospital like another groomer my boss knows...small dogs can bite, but, large dogs can put you in the hospital, or like the groomer attacked by a chow she had been grooming for years...suffer horrible scars and reconstructive surgery on your face and upper arms for years to come. The problems with small dogs is most times they are not obedience trained, owners inadvertaley give their little dogs reasons to be offensive with body language, tone of voice and reacting badly in certain situations. With some bad large dogs most times the owners are afraid of their dogs and allow them to rule the roost.

I think the AKC and CKC are ruining breeds. It wasn't long ago that the border collie breed club was dismayed to hear the AKC was going to recognize their border collie...they protested against this as they knew the border collie would be ruined once recognized by the AKC. The AKC soon would have gotten rid of the "eye" etc. What breed clubs forget is that to keep a breed healthy you should cross breed every once in awhile...most good working dogs are the product of good crossbreeding programs. When you think about it, you start out with a mongrel, breed and cull until you get a desired look, then inbreed (all purebreeds have been inbreed at some point to hold the desired look)...then you keep the same look for so many generations and viola! you have a purebred dog. There are healthy ways of keeping a purebred, but, I don't feel the AKC or CKC is achieving this...in order to keep a purebred healthy you should not just be breeding for physical conformation...you must also breed for behavior conformation...without the two the breed starts falling apart and suffers from many genetic diseases. I have a friend who breeds GSD's, the pups are down on their pasturns until they are about a year old. It's really sad watching these pathatic creatures as pups...but, this is what is winning in the show ring. I own Newf's which cannot swim, heck, one of my Newf's almost drowned last week...I HAD TO SAVE HIM, he could not keep afloat. That is not normal for a Newf. they are suffering from many orthopedic diseases even though they are doing the best of health tests and clearances...but, just because my dog clears does not mean a genetic disease is not going to pop up in the next generation. It a law of genetics, that by keeping one genetic disease out of a line and breeding against it...another genetic disease will pop up. Take a look some time at breed specific diseases in breeds bred with extreme looks or physical beauty. I think that in order to show your purebred you should have to achieve a working title as well. You need to keep physical & behavior conformation true...they go hand in hand. I think another thing breeders should stop doing is breeding for the "look" of the year, or for outlandish freakish looks...it seems for some breeds they over do it on some extreme looks...a great example is the extreme angualtion on the GSD, perfect top line on the Newf, and the big coat of the Newf...extreme pushed in faces, breeding for dwarfism etc. [b]quote by Rosebud[/b] [quote]Conformation "Show" breeders get carried away with the newest "hip" look and tend to concentrate on one particular trait... ie. the excessive slope in the GSD and lose site (become kennel blind) to the other traits in the breed. [/quote] So true. [quote]Judges also tend to become "handler blind" and think that just because a dog is being shown by ""big name handler"" that the dog is the ultimate representative of the breed[/quote] This happens more than people think. I have had it happen to me many times. I have handled a Newf in the ring, the judges don't recognize me and I get dumped. The very next day under the exact same judge the breeder takes the very same dog into the ring and takes best of breed :roll: It was even up against the same dogs. The breeder of my Newf's is very well known in the show world in Canada and State side...she gets championship titles on all of her dogs very quickly...so there fore the judges will place her. [quote]Hunters don't usually enter their dogs in Conformation events since that is not their main concern and most of them can't stand the snobbery that goes on in the "show" ring, but that doesn't mean that Hunting clubs don't have problems in their lines either.[/quote] I have a friend who breeds true working hunting Lab's...she has very healthy dogs which do not suffer from genetic diseases. She does not show her Lab's in conformation as she feels it is pointless for a working dog...she is looked down apon by the conformation breeders and it is amazing how they bad mouth her behind her back :o even going as far as to call her a back yard breeder :o she registers her litters, only has pups on demand and sells to people who need and want a working dog which they probably will not find in a conformation show dog...and believe me I know of several people who bought Lab's and Golden's from champion conformation lines which they cannot hunt with...these people were very disappointed...the dogs are really quite screwed up in the head. There are healthy ways to keep a purebred. But, I think alot of breeders today are being blinded by the show lights.

oops, its Chelsea, not daisy your having the problems with. Sorry :oops: [quote]I don't yell at Chelsea when she pees, but when she does hurt Daisy[/quote] The one thing I have learned from having a multie dog house hold for many many years is that getting excited or upset can esculate a fight. Some of the worst dog fights I have seen is when an owner gets upset, alot of dogs assume the owner is backing them up or joining in:wink: [quote]At other times, if I try to get her to do something she will just pee AGAIN.[/quote] How are you going about trying to get her to do things? are you making it fun and uppity? or are you "telling" her to do some thing? for dogs which lack confidence its a good idea to make every thing uppity and happy...with my Newf if I tried to tell her to do some thing like "sit" in a normal tone of voice...she gets upset and anxious. I have to keep my voice positive and happy at all times around her. I am very proud to say that with this back wards Newf I was able to get her CD obedience title on her...and this was just by using a positive happy attitude around her. I have never been able to treat her like a "normal" dog...she is very sensitive and intune to my moods and tone of voice...even my body language. I never stand over her, when I ask her to do some thing I never look her in the eyes, I have encouraged her with treats to look at me in the face during obedience and she has been wonderfully rewarded for it. I never make a move towards her, I always have her come to me...I really have to be non assertive towards her...if I did treat her as I treat my other dogs she would be back to square one again and scared to death. [quote]Tonight she peed in the den, and I don't know why???? Jake was in the room and we were playing fetch, and Daisy was chewing on a bone..... then I turned and saw a puddle on the rug and Chelsea ran and hid behind the sofa. Maybe she is peeing for attention?????????? [/quote] It could be that she is trying to get your attention...even negetive attention is attention. If this were some thing I were going through I would probably try to act very calm when she makes a mistake...ignore her while you clean up. Then take her outside and walk her around for a little while. In the future when ever I caught her going pee out side or in the places I want her to go I would be sure to praise her for this. Give her attention and praise when she does what you want and pees where you want her to pee and ignore her when she does wrong. I would stay away from punishing her when she makes her mistakes in the house. I would be consistant with her and happy with her...dogs will repeat actions which bring them rewards or pleasure. Set her up for success by having her do some thing she knows how to do and make a big deal of how wonderful she is when she does it. Make her happy to make you happy. [quote]I would have to know the people or through someone else. I could never bring her to a shelter. I don't know if I could ever give her up......... Sometimes I feel it would be best.[/quote] I certainly would not send her back to the shelter, this could set her back even more. If you do decide to keep her then join an obedience class with an instructor who understands challenged dogs...work on her confidence...you are not going to see any changes over night. When a dog has not been properly socialized before the age of 16 weeks...it can take alot to undo the damage which is already there. A pup before the age of 16 weeks has a social window which can be filled with alot of new things..these pups have no fear and when introduced to new things in a positive manner will have a wonderful start on life. When they miss out on this social period, they do not have the social window open any longer and new things can seem frightening...for survival basis an animal will react to unknown things with fight or flight...its called survival and this is perfectly natural. The key is when dealing with a dog in this state is to make every thing positive and not to get upset when your dog shows fear...they are depending on you to gain their confidence. Try to deal with all new things with a grain of salt, don't force your dog to meet new things or deal with new animals...but, then again don't coddle the dog either..by coddling our dogs when fearful or offensive we are reinforcing the dogs idea that this object of fear is some thing to be concerned about. As for a new home, it would be nice if you could find an older couple with a quiet life style. It would also be nice if you could keep her and get some help to get her over this fear of hers. It took me 2 years to get my Newf half way normal in public...it doesnt happen over night.

As Kat said, get Buck in to the Vet ASAP! When a dog is lethargic and not himself it is usually very serious. At most Vet clinics for cases such as what Buck is going through they have a drop off service where instead of an appointment you can drop Buck off and leave him for the day to observe and do proper testing. Have a CBC blood test done, and it would be nice to get a urine sample to take in...usually it is recommended to take in the 1st morning void. Good luck, I hope every thing is OK

They still make Dr. Pepper??? :o I thought that went out of style like disco music... 8) :lol: After I read this today I went out shopping and made an effort to see if I spotted Dr. Pepper...they don't stock it in any stores in my area....strange, very very strange.

For alot of dogs, fear is due to lack of socialization during the critical period of socialization. I have adopted many kennel dogs which were afraid of their own shadows when I adopted them. My oldest female Newf is a perfect example, I adopted her when she was about 2 years old...she was terrified at the dog shows etc. when I adopted her she was a hard case...I was very determined to work her through her problems. I never made a big deal of any thing...and for me the other dogs actually helped her over come some of her fears...the object of fear didn't kill or eat the other dogs, so it must be fine. I never baby talked her, or coddled her. I used obedience training to encourage her to succeed in order to build her confidence, I also found the NIFIL worked wonders for her...having to "earn" every thing helped build her confidence. It took my Newf 2 years to fully come around...and even today there are some things which still put her in a fearful mood (changing things around in my home really freaks her out) In your case your dogs sounds as if she is fearful and reacts in an offensive manner. Perhaps when out on walks carry treats and encourage her to "look at you" and treat her when going by any thing she may react in an offensive manner. With your other dogs try doing some group obedience, simple things like sit and give treats. If Daisy does get upset and tries to dominant your other dogs...try not to make too big of a deal of it. Give Daisy a time out, she is dealing with the other dogs in the only way she knows how. To get excited and use a high pitched tone of voice can add to the problems...just calmly seperate them and give the time out. I went through this with my newest rescue Beau...he instigates and starts alot of small fights with my other dogs...Beau is not dominante, but, he gets right in there and will straddle the other dogs...for me, I just let them work it out on their own and find their own places. Now, if I were to start getting upset every time my dogs got into a little spat and came running over or got excited, this would esculate the fight and my dogs possibly would damage each other. This is only in my house hold though...there are some people who have to keep their dogs seperate due to fighting. As for the submissive urinating, there is not much you can do about that. Don't punish the dog, this is actually some thing alot of dogs do when they are around the dominant members of thier house hold. Some dogs will always dribble or give leave thier whole bladder on the floor :lol: :wink: I can't think of any thing you can do to stop the submissive urinating. Most dogs I know which have been submissive urinaters have been so throughout life...there are only a handful I know of where the owners where able to build up the dogs confidence level enough to get them to stop. To build confidence you need to set Daisy up for success, success builds confidence removes confusion. There are a few herbs which are good for dogs which suffer from panic or fear. Valerian: is some what like a sedative, it works safely and gently to help calm the nerves and achieve physical relaxation. It does not induce an altered state like on would expect . Valerian helps the body relax in the presence of fearful objects (in times of anxiety) Skullcap: Is commonly used for acute or chronic cases of nervous tension or anxiety. Oat (flowering tops of Avena sativa) the flowering tops of the oat plant are an excellent nervous system tonic. When fed in moderation to animals with chronic nervousness, oat tends to have a calming effect. [b]Passionflower: Is a herb used for fear biters and other dogs who take on aggressive behavior during stressful situations. Passion flower is an excellent choice for taking a bit of the nervous edge off jealous types who don't want other dogs around[/b]. Good luck to you, and if you feel she is not doing well in your home...don't feel bad about placing her in a "quiet" home with no other dogs. :wink:

HazelNutMeg, great point. With a sheep herding dog they have had the "kill bite" bred out of them. You don't want a dog herding sheep and biting them. Sheep Herding dogs hard wired behaviors are eye stalking and chasing...if you were competing in a herding competition with your border collie they would take points off a dog which bites the sheep...its not a proper behavior comformation for a border collie to go past chase (although they may nip). But, with an Aussie, they were used for droving cattle, they had to have a little "kill bite" in them to keep the cattle moving...same with Rotties. Terriers used their full series of predatory drives to chase and kill varmin. With hunting dogs such as retrievers, pointers they do not have the full series of predatory behavior. You wouldn't want your retriever going into predatory drift while out hunting, neither would you want your pointer going into this mode. They breed alot of dogs such as hunting dogs and sheep herding dogs to have a soft mouth...although sheep herding dogs may nip, they really havent been bred to bite the sheep as other breeds which are cattle drovers have been. One thing I want to stipulate, ALL dogs can bite...you can't breed that out of them...but, not all dogs will go from a bite to kill bite (which can lead to mauling - depending on the level of predatory drive the dog has)...all dogs can bite in different circumstances, its there way of controlling a situation in alot of situations. It's the fact that many breeds where bred to not go past a certain stage of predatory drive while performing their jobs. It's neat how they can breed certain characteristics into certain breeds. It all has to do with rearranging and deselecting different patterns of the predatory drive and developing hard wired behaviors. You see a behavior you like, you keep breeding for it, soon you have a hard wired behavior. With mongrels (purebred mongrels) which have never been selectively bred by man...they have the full series of predatory drives, but, none of them are hard wired or over emphasized. With myself, I have a Rottie which has a very high prey drive...she is easily aroused in many circumstances with fast moving objects...she will go into predatory drift. I didn't understand what this was until I got my Rottie...never had I owned a dog with this high of a prey drive and I have owned border collies, husky's, GSD's, Great Pyrenees, Great dane, Newf's (many many Newf's), dalmations, Dobie's...I could go on :lol: It took alot of understanding on my part and an open mind to understand my Rottie and to realize that some of the behaviors she displayed where not aggression but, predatory drives. When I first took her in she actually stalked and attacked me...so, I have been on the receiving end of a dog with a high prey drive...and it happens so suddenly and unexpectadly. I was in a feild, let her off lead, she played for awhile and I threw her some sticks...she ran to the other end of the feild, I kept walking and then I started jogging a little...Athena stopped, put her head down slightly and was stalking me! she walked slowly towards me in this stance...and then broke out into a run and attacked me by grabbing my upper arm etc. If I wasn't as strong as I am this could have turned into a mauling attack...I grabbed her by the neck and threw her to the ground and held her there until she came out of it..once out of it she was her same sweet self and continued playing. It was a long hard bumpy road learning to deal with this and attending seminars on it...its not an aggressive act on the part of the dog, its a hard wired behavior...by the way, I almost gave Athena to a Rottie rescue at that point when she displayed this behavior because I didn't understand it, at that time I though...how could a dog which is so sweet and loving one moment turn on me???? after doing research I found she didn't "turn" on me...I started jogging which put her into predatory drift. Any way, it is completely normal, my little girl has never done this to me or others ever again(although she will stalk and attack my Newf's and Beau when playing, my Newf's are big brutes and usually put her in her place pretty quickly :wink: )...but, there is always the chance that some thing may arouse this predatory drift...I am very careful with her. A friend of mine has a Rottie which is very very submissive and sweet, this Rottie has gone into predatory drift around small dogs...and once a very young child who was running around the arena put him into predatory drift...if you don't know what to watch for it could lead to a very dreadful ending. And its difficult also when you have a dog with a high prey drive which LOVES your cats and sleeps with them when in the house...but, outside the house the same cats are prey...its an eye opener :o Its not an act of aggression, its a hard wired behavior. Understanding and a willing to learn about dog behavior can and will make a safe community and perhaps put an end to this silly notion of banning breeds. Any way, sorry to be so long winded...oh, what am I talking about....I'm always long winded.

I just wanted to share this article, it seems when ever there is a dog attack the owners are blamed for either abusing their dog, spoiling their dog, etc. Some attacks can be blamed on a dogs predatory drive, this cannot be considered an act of aggression as it is a hard wired behavior in most breeds. I some times think this is not well understood by alot of dog owners though. I know alot of Rotties & a few APBT's (alot of terriers have a very high prey drive) with a very high prey drive, the dogs are lovely dogs and great with people etc. But, once they are aroused they will go into prey mode and they could be dangerous in some situations. I think it would be beneficial for dog owners to know a little about this hard wired motor pattern...and yes, a child can be mistaken as prey by some dogs. This article is not as indepth as I would have liked...but, its a start. :wink: It is also some thing to be careful of when allowing large dogs play with small dogs about 50% smaller than themselves...during play there have been cases of the large dog turning the game into a hunt, the little dog which was the dogs friend suddenly becomes the prey. [url]http://www.petplace.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=1820[/url]

I forgot to mention my Rottie and Dobie: I do not know who owned either of these dogs, so of course I don't know the breeders :-? My Rottie was confiscated from a bad situation, her owner was in jail and he left Athena chained in his backyard with no shelter and had a couple of drunks down the road plop an open bag of dog food down for her when they remembered. She was taken by the SPCA, I am friends with the SPCA officer who took her though. :wink: My Dobie Beau, I found half starved running down the side of a busy road. It took me 3 months to get him healthy enough to be neutered and vaccinated. He is a lovely (yet very weird looking) dog and has fit into my group very well. I don't know who owned him, I have a feeling he was just dumped and was on the run for quite some time.

I forgot to mention my Rottie and Dobie: I do not know who owned either of these dogs, so of course I don't know the breeders :-? My Rottie was confiscated from a bad situation, her owner was in jail and he left Athena chained in his backyard with no shelter and had a couple of drunks down the road plop an open bag of dog food down for her when they remembered. She was taken by the SPCA, I am friends with the SPCA officer who took her though. :wink: My Dobie Beau, I found half starved running down the side of a busy road. It took me 3 months to get him healthy enough to be neutered and vaccinated. He is a lovely (yet very weird looking) dog and has fit into my group very well. I don't know who owned him, I have a feeling he was just dumped and was on the run for quite some time.

I try to eat just as healthy as my pets. For my dogs they have a variety in their diet, fish, raw meat, cooked meats, veggies, yoghert, some fruits, I also supplement their diets with herbs and some vitamins and minerals, flax seeds ground at home, pumpkin seeds etc. I also feed them kibble, mainly wellness or solid gold, my dogs usually have either canned food mixed in with their kibble or veggies etc. I try to ensure all foods are organic, I try to pick up all of my meats from a friend of mine who raises chickens (free range), sheep, and cows...he some times raises pigs as well and pheasants. I know what his animals have eaten and I am sure they have not been pumped full of antibiotics and pesticides or growth hormones. In the summer I grow my own garden and through out the year I grow my own herbs. I also grow my dogs their own wheat grass and barley grass to nibble on at all times. I try to be careful with the foods I eat and what my pets eat. I try not to eat our at fast food restaurants, I will only get salads or fish when out at a restaurant; nothing deep fried, I try to stay away from red meats and eat more fish and chicken (free range). My dogs and I also enjoy free range eggs...yum. I also try to stay away from milk and drink soy mild instead..I was weaned along time ago, I don't need milk any more :lol: :wink: I get my calcium from green veggies, goats cheese, yoghert etc. So yes, I try to eat just as good as my dogs...although we do have our weakness for tim hortons coffee and bagels. Very evil weakness :evil: I have been know to purchase toasted buttered bagels for my pooches and myself every so often...I can't help myself when going through the drive in and I have 6 dogs drooling over the smells coming in the vehicle from tim's...I do have my weakness.

I own: 4 Newfoundland dogs, 2 of which are intact males, 1 intact female and 1 spayed female. I also have 1 of my bitches pups living with me, shes a little female...and sweet :angel: 1 Rottweiler 1 DobieX 3 Cats 3 Goldfish :roll: And I co-lease a Quater horse.

I see the breeder of my Newf's just about every day. She is a good frind of mine, I was friends with her before she started giving me all of these Newf's :wink: If I'm not careful she will sneak more Newf's into my home. She is very good at doing this...she asks if I'll take one home for a sleep over, then asks how they made out...then suggest the dog would do very well living with me and my group. How can I say no??? currently I have been having a one of my bitchs pups over for sleep overs..she is about 12 weeks now?? I can't remember exactly...I can see that she will probably be staying for good. The breeder already has alot of Newf's living with her, and she likes to keep her "best" close by...either at my home or another friends home. She also buys all the food for my Newf's, pays for vet bills, obedience classes, any registration fee's for obedience trials (my dogs are all finished in the comformation ring)...they only thing I have to do is love them and of course keep them groomed (I work in a grooming shop, so this is pretty easy for me) :wink: