eric

Good for you Gigi. Glad you held it together. I have yet to make it through a visit with dry eyes.

Before we got Zeke I was sort of interested in resuing a greyhound. I spoke to a person at this particular greyhound rescue place and they told me that greyhounds *cannot* be made to come on command. I had never heard of a dog that couldn't be trained to come. [quote name='StarGaze']Dogs are far more intelligent than most people think. It's amazing how much they pick up on when we're not paying attention...like Deep's example. While at the shelter not long ago some fools came in asking the woman at the desk if they give the dogs away for free and if they have any Pits. They seriously thought they could come in, grab a Pit, and leave...no questions asked. Well, later they walked into the dog room and up to a Boston who promptly tried to bite them. The Boston loved everyone else there. I don't believe they reminded him of someone from his past (but guess it's possible), I think he just knew right away they were bad news. Sighthounds are not the type to follow orders, only requests. :lol: They were bred to think for themselves, not be told what to do. I think Afghans come off as not so smart because of that, not to mention they are such clowns. They will do [i]anything [/i] for a laugh. Sebastian would walk on his hind legs and "woo, woo, woo" talk...just to crack us up. I'm not talking briefly either, he would seriously walk around. Connie[/quote]

I really think that the onus is on the owner to be responsible for the actions of their dog. It seems that the sanctions against delinquent owners are insufficient. Often, you hear about a mauling only to later hear that the owners get a slap on the wrist. However, I think that there are a number of alarmist people out there. When we talk about banning certain breeds, the first thing that comes to mind are pitbulls/rotties/GSDs. But I believe that the stastics indicate that the majority of dog attacks are by breeds considered to be much more innocuous; collies, dalmations, etc. Granted, the pitbull attacks tend to be more severe, but they are not the most common. Finally, non-dog people need to educate themselves about dogs. If I lived in an area with bears, I would find out what I could do to avoid being attacked. Don't get upset when someone's dog bites your kid after your kid ran up out of nowhere and grabbed him by the ears.

My wife and I used to have a double bed, which was always fine until Sam got bigger. After a few sleepless nights with rough dog pads pushed into my back, we went out and got a king size bed. The bugger would actually put his feet into my back and PUSH. I'm crowded, roll over. People think I'm nuts when I say we got a bigger bed because of the dogs. Travis usually stays on the bed for about half an hour or so, but then get off and sleeps on my wife's side. Sam will usually spend the night between us, but he usually folds his legs up and tucks his back paws in so he's pretty compact and doesn't wake us. Its funny waking up in the middle of the night and the whole bed is shaking. Always takes me a few second to realize Sam is having a dream and twitching...

Nah, they're probably just looking at you thinking "Why don't *YOU* get it" or "I'm fine here, I don't want to go over there". :D [quote name='gigishiba'][quote name='eric']I seem to remember reading somewhere that dogs are one of the few animals that understand pointing, i.e: when you point to something they look in that direction.... [/quote] My dogs don't understand that. They just stare at me like, HUH??? :oops:[/quote]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that dogs are one of the few animals that understand pointing, i.e: when you point to something they look in that direction. A few years ago there was a documentary about dogs and this lady was commenting about the intelligence of dogs. I'm paraphrasing a bit here, but she said something along the lines that dogs: "Imagine taking a baby and placing it with aliens, who have completely alien rules and ways of doing things, and communicate not just in a different language but in a completely manner (touch vs talking). Seems incredible, and yet that's what we do with puppies. The amazing thing is that they learn to understand us, and the rules we impose on them"

Just wanted to add that this is just my personal curiousity because Travis is so big for a GSD (29.5" at the whithers, 118 lbs as of last night's vet checkup). I don't really care whether he meets the standard or not, as he is solely a companion (and a wonderful one at that). BTW, totally off-topic, but I was so proud of him yesterday. I took him by myself to the vet for his vaccination+check-up. Anyhow, I'm in the examination room and the vet is looking him over, feeling for lumps, looking in his mouth, etc... Suddenly, she stops and says to me: "I can't believe how well tempered and well mannered he is for a Shepherd. We often have problems with GSDs here. He's so gentle. You've got a wonderful dog." I was so proud.

Hi Bensam. I'm Canadian. Quite the multi-national forum we got here. :D I was very sorry to here about the attack in Bali. I like to think Canadians and Australians are not that different, and if it can happen to you it can happen to us. I don't have the CKC standard in front of me, but I seem to remember 27" at the high end for males for some reason. Sounds pretty similar to your numbers. [quote name='Bensam']Meant to add - don't know where you are from Eric, I have probably missed it somewhere, anyway our standard in Aussie for German Shepherds reads--- The ideal height (measured to the highest point of the shoulder) is 56-61 cm (22-24in.) for bitches and 61-66 cm (24-26ins) for dogs. The proportion, of length to height, may vary between 10:9 to 10:8.5. Again it says 'ideal' height. This seems to be the same as the standard you were refering to, so I'm probably telling you something you already know :lol:[/quote]

Thanks Gigi. I'm a little slow today. That means that I should not measure to the top of the spine?

Just curious about something. When a breed standard says "The dog shall measure between xxx and yyy at the shoulder", are they measuring to the very top of the dog's back at the front legs? I was curious to see how Travis differed from the GSD standard and when I measured, I got 29.5" from the ground to the top of his back, which is like 2.5" more than the standard so I think I'm not measuring properly.

I always cringe when I watch Fraiser thinking about how many people are going out and buying JRT because they're "cool" and not realizing what they are getting into. [quote name='K']I babysat an 8 week old JRT for 2 weeks (long story don't ask :roll: ) and it was (in the end) nice to have her but it was especially nice to give her back :o ...I have looked after 6 newborn babies in my time and let me tell you a Jacky is 3 times the work![/quote]

Well, first of all congrats on a new puppy. One of them most important things you can do is to keep socializing her as you have been. This will have great benefit down the road. As for her being overly aggressive, the other dogs will let her know. The rule of thumb is if they go back and she goes back, they're having fun. In fact, you may need to let her "learn her lesson" so to speak and be put in her place by one of the bigger dogs. She's still a baby and is still learning about hierchy and this is part of the learning process. If she likes to nip at home, make sure you bite-sensitize her. If she were with her littermates and she nipped one of them to hard, they would yelp and stop playing with her. However, being in a human family she does not get this feedback. It is important that when she nips you, you yelp loudly and stop playing for a minute or two. This will teach her that biting hurts, and will pay dividends down the road if she ever fear-bites someone (she shouldn't bite as hard). [quote name='Humboldt505']I have a basically sweet puppy (8 weeks and likes to nip) she seems to know my husband and i are in charge, but when she goes to play with other dogs, rat terrriers to pit bulls all she wants to do is fight. Her tail is wagging but she growls with barred teeth and all. The fur on her back goes up. At first i thought she was scared, but she cries to go back to the "fun" as soon as we pick her up. She likes to play very ruff. But i am afraid once she gets bigger no one will want to play with her, and i won't want her to hurt another dog, what do i do to ensure that she won't be destined for a life of solitude? We are told she is a malamute shepard mix.[/quote]

Cool, didn't know there were splitting the breeds. I have a plan to power most of North America using Jack Russells :lol: A friend has one and the little guy literally trembles with energy. The first time I saw him, it was 15 minutes of watching him run circles around us, non-stop.

Thanks guys. My favorite part of the day is early morning or at night when we're all on the bed together. In the morning, Sam has this uncanny ability of knowing when the alarm is set to go off and he jumps up on the bed about 15-20 minutes and snuggles up to me. At night Sam gets on and curls up on my pillow while I'm getting ready (its a funny sight, 85 lb dog curled up on a regular pillow), then moves and snuggles into me when I get it. I adjust my pillow so that his head is on it (and so that my arm doesn't go numb), with my other arm draped across his chest, face buried into the back of his neck. I fall asleep like that every night.

Something I wrote a while ago... I remember once we lay together, paw in hand My face buried in the soft warmth of your neck, I whispered a prayer into your folded ear, that we never be parted. Breathing in unison, I drifted off and dreamt a Salvador dream Where you spoke to me, and I to you And when I said

I understand what I read, but I can only read what you write. Not having all the information or disagreeing is different than not comprehending. It would seem that perhaps the inability to comprehend lay elsewhere, as at no time did I say that you are predisposed to curse and shout at people. What I gave you was sound advice on conflict resolution with neighbors, which I believe you were asking for in your original post. If you have no conflicts to resolve, than please disregard my advice. I inferred that you were "upset" because of your liberal use of exclamation marks and your tendency to end sentences with several punctation marks. If you neighbors are complaining because your dog is outside and it "might" bark, then they are clearly idiots and you should tell them to go away. BTW, not officially disputing the fenceline can set precedence for ownership by "hostile possession", more commonly known as squatters' rights, whereby your neighbor can legally gain possession of part of your land after a number of years. The amount of time before "hostile possession" occurs varies from state to state (or province to province. Dismantling (or building) a fence which is not on your property may be considered an act of hostile possession depending on where you live. You may want to send them a registered letter and copy your lawyer. But listen, good luck with your situation. And thanks for being patronizing. That was refreshing. I haven't been patronized since I got my masters in Mechanical Engineering. Luckily for me my debilitating inability to comprehend did not inhibit me graduating top of my class and starting my own successful company 4 years ago. [quote name='corgilady'] Eric, I dont think you have good reading comprehension skills, but I will try to bear with you. I do not use curse words or shout at people, so there is not really a chance I will scream at anyone over their garbage. The other neighbors have confronted them, and have called the city on them, and it didn't do any good. :roll: I am not "upset", just annoyed by their behavoir, so I cannot forsee any "escalation". I am glad for you that you were able to resolve your problem, but I believe that your situation with a bulldozer is a little more concrete than my situation with a dog that "might bark" at "any time of day we might choose to put our kids in bed" in a town that DOES NOT HAVE A NOISE ORDINANCE. I am not the sort of person who would use revenge, that is exactly my point, that I have tried to be as kind as possible... when the city worker came to me and asked if I had a problem with their hedges being overgrown (yet another complaint that got called in) I even took their side. I talked to them about it, and assured them it was NOT ME who kept complaining (they may think it is, but it isn't), and that I thought their hedges were fine, and that the most important thing was for everyone to get along. As far as the dog being outside "unsupervised", as you call it, he is allowed in the back yard, which is fenced, or walked on a leash. When I say "he is out for one hour", that is one hour TOTAL in a day ( a24 hour period) which could mean a few 15 minute visits or even less than that, depending. AS it has been raining for months, and the ground is very soggy, it is usuallly quite a bit less than that. HOWEVER, may I say that I feel the dog has as much right to live here as anyone else! and he should not have to be inside all the time because... he "might" bark! There are 3 dogs immediately behind us, which would be within 60 feet of the back of my house and the one beside me, that start barking at 5:30 a.m. and are often still going at 11. I also have 2 other dogs, who occasionally bark, and these people have not said a word about them. That is why I am so curious about this one complaint. Also, each day between 6 and 14 times ambulances, fire trucks, and police cars roar down the street... These "babies" who need all this sleep SURELY would wake up to that! ....kids come to the front of our houses to use the crosswalk, screaming up & down the street to each other... Also there is lots of other loud traffic, and a factory whistle that blows, and a train. So I feel that the barking pales by comparison! Bullygirl probably has the gist of the problem in a nutshell: [quote] i've dealt w/ unhappy people before and here's the deal nothing you do will make them happy. That's what makes them happy being miserable[/quote][/quote]

There was a study done not too long ago that showed that dogs can count and differentiate between two quantities. The dogs involved apparently were reliably able to pick the plate with more treats. The greater the difference, the less time it took for them to pick, leading the researchers to conclude that the dogs are doing some sort of basic counting. The question is perhaps not "Are they intelligent" but how do you measure their intelligence.

Corgilady, I think if you spend some time reading any number of books or websites on conflict resolution with neighbors you will find that one of the first things they tell you is: "Don't assume your neighbor is aware of the issue (or issues)". It may glaringly obvious to yourself and to others, but these neighbors may be blissfully unaware that you are upset by these things. As an example, they may have no idea that they are waking you up when they come home every night. If you convince yourself that they are aware of the problem and the irration it causes you, then you convince yourself that they are doing it on purpose just to irritate you. Your internal dialogue switches from: "I think I should go over and ask them to please be a little more quiet when they come home" to "Go*^$^ f@%@^g dumb!^#ss neighbors!!!!!!!!!!! I'm gonna go over there and give them a piece of my mind!!!!!". And if the first thing you say to them "Why don't you clean up your F(*$+$G GARBAGE that's strewn all over my front lawn!!!" you will most likely have taken a step back away from resolution and a step towards an escalating feud. If this happens, no one wins because you become a prisoner in your own home, too uncomfortable to be out when you neighbor is out, stuck inside seething at every little occurence. Better to assume they simply don't know and, knowing that the by-laws support your position, go over and ask nicely. Chances are you will get what you want and not poison the atmosphere. I speak from experience and I have done quite a bit of research on dealing with neighbors. Last summer, at our new home, my neighbor partially dismantled a fence and drove a bulldozer across the corner of my property without my permission to demolish on old barn on her property. The bulldozer did substantial damage to the turf, as he had to make a turn while on my property, and I was livid at the arrogance of my neighbor. I could of called the cops and went out screaming at my neighbor, but we like our new home and want to be able to enjoy it. So instead, I talked to my by-law officer and found out what the local laws stated. I then printed of a copy of the "Trespass to Property Act", made a copy of the property survey, and went over and calmly talked to my neighbor. I explained that I wanted to show her the survey in case there was any confusion as to where the property lines are, showed here where the markers are located and showed her that the bulldozer was clearly brought on my property. I then showed her the "Trespass to property" act and made her aware of what remedies existed for me under that act, but said I wanted to keep a good relationship with her and wanted to work this out. In the end, she gladly agreed to pay for a landscaper to come in and fix the damage and promised to never trespass on my property again. The next day we had a very nice conversation at the fence, and we are still on good terms. Again, you are free to do whatever you wish and dismiss me out of hand. But I can almost guarantee you where the road of escalation leads to. [quote name='corgilady']And another thing: eric said: [quote]You can't expect your neighbors to know something is annoying you if you don't talk to them.[/quote] excuse me? I cannot expect them to know not to spread their germy garbage all over the neighborhood? What about the leaves, is the fact that everyone else rakes them to the curb for pick-up not enough of a clue to clean them up???? OK so I should automatically know that a dog should not bark, but they should not know to be clean. Got it! :roll: Thanks for the info![/quote]

Ok, wow. [quote]You do NOT KNOW ME as others on here do, so I really wasn't asking for YOUR opinion![/quote] I guess I mistook this for a public forum. My sincerest apologies for offering a differing view point. I assume you are an adult, and as such you are certainly completely free to do whatever you wish regarding this situation. [quote]ERIC I DID NOT PLAN to use this as an excuse to let the dog bark! If you read what I wrote, it should be clear that I have made every effort to KEEP HIM QUIET. I cannot believe that you are accusing me of such a thing when I think I made it clear that I have bent over backwards to help them, and been completely kind and considerate although they have been very poor (rude) neighbors. [/quote] There is no accusation, implied or otherwise, in what I wrote. The paragraph merely states that you should refrain from being tempted of using this litany of complaints against your neighbors as an excuse to leave Koda outside barking. As I said, this will only serve to escalate the situation further, moving you away from resolution. Having dealt with bad neighbors myself, I know that there is often a strong desire to "get them back", drag out the stereo and crank it up full, rattle the windows, etc. In the long run it just tempts your neighbor to retaliate and makes it more difficult to talk. [quote]He barks MUCH less if I shut him all the way in the back. He also is beginning to respond to the "no bark" command. Just a little. [/quote] [color=blue]There is improvement.[/color] [quote]I started keeping him inside a LOT more at that time, about one month ago. I feel though that if he were outside about 4 hours a day, that's enough to run off his energy. [color=red]But since they complained , he is in like 22 or 23 hours out of the day[/color]. [b]Many days I only leash walk him and don't even let him out alone at all[/b].[/quote] [quote]So i really do not appreciate you projecting YOUR problems onto ME and making assumptions about my behavior.[/quote] By your own admission, Koda used to spend 4 hours a day outside, unsupervised. Even now, he is spending 1 to 2 hours a day outside. Whether he is barking or not, I don't know. I only have your side of the story. Maybe your neighbors are completely wacko and come running over every time Koda utters a single bark. Maybe reality is somewhere in between. I do know that there are two sides to every coin. I was not projecting my (past) problems onto you, but having been on the other side of a similar dispute (dog barking only, not the other stuff) I erroneously thought that perhaps there was some value in your seeing the other side. As they say, before you judge a man (or a neighbor) walk a mile in his shoes. As dog owners, we are sometimes "deaf" to the barking of our dogs and fail to understand the frustration it can cause in others, especially non-dog owners. I still stand by my statement that someone who leaves their dog outside barking continuously is rude and disrespectful to the neighbors. I agree that neighbors do need to be tolerant of the occasional barking, as all dogs bark (except for that one breed, can't remember the name). I occasionally have deer in the back and my GSD takes off after them barking. But that lasts less than 30 seconds. Leaving a dog barking outside for more than 5 minutes on an on-going basis is just plain rude. I think it is the equivalent of going out with a boom-box and enlightening your neighbors on the nuances of Gangsta' rap. It simply cannot lead to a good relationship with your neighbors. If Koda is quiet as a mouse a only barks few times here and there, then I 100% COMPLETELY AGREE with you that your neighbors are being totally unreasonable. Kids laugh and scream. Dogs occasionally bark. Its a fact of life. However, if it is 5 or 10 minutes of continuous barking then in my opinion your neighbors have a legitimate complaint regarding Koda's barking. They have a right to enjoy their home and property without being subjected to dog barking. And *IF* Koda was previously barking outside in a more or less continuous manner for periods of up to 4 hours, your neighbor may be very sensitized to Koda's barking. This *does not mean* that your complaints against them are any less valid because Koda was barking and I think you should address the others issues with the neighbors. Again, if Koda was quiet during this period than your neighbors are over-reacting. [quote]Do you keep all your dogs in the house, all the time?????Well it doesn't even matter whether you do or don't because you haven't had them very long.You have no idea, I am sure, what it is like to do all the things I do and still keep the dog INSIDE ALL THE TIME. I feel as if I can't even walk him, on a leash, into the back yard for a second. [/quote] My dogs do not go outside unsupervised with the exception of being let out for 3 to 5 minutes at a time to go to the bathroom. If they start barking we immediately bring them in. We all go for daily walks around the property, for about an hour each evening. During the summer, we usually spend most of the day outside on the weekends, but we still manage to spend 2 or 3 hours outside during the winter. We have had Sam for 4 years, Travis for 3 and Zeke for a week and a half. I think I have owned dogs long enough to have formed an opinion regarding the topic of keeping them indoors. You are correct that I really don't have any idea what its like to do all the things you do and keep your dog inside all the time because I don't know what it is you do. Nor was I suggesting that you keep you dog inside all the time either. What I was suggesting is that you bring Koda in when he starts to bark. I'm taking a guess here, but I don't think your neighbor has a problem with Koda being outside, he has a problem with him being outside barking.

Jacsmom, I think that what is in the bowl and how it got there is pretty much just speculation. I don't know that much about Magnolias, but nature in general encourages trees to spread their seeds as far as possible. Whether it be by wind or by animals. Having said that, maybe these are crazy neighbors who actually want to harm the dog. To answer your question, however, I would simply keep the dog's food and/or water bowl inside. [quote name='Jacsmom']Eric I am just curious as to what you would do about the seeds in the dog bowl?[/quote]

Well, the first thing you should of done is called the police for damage to property if they took down a fence that was clearly on your property. It also sounds like you have some less than pleasant neighbours. I have to say, however, that in my opinion there simply is no excuse for leaving your dog barking outside for any length of time. It is simply rude and disrespectful to your neighbors. Understand, I have 3 dogs so its not like I have no idea what its like being a dog owner. But when my boys start to bark, they are immediately brought in, and they are never left outside unsupervised. I also understand what its like living next to someone who lets their dog bark. The main reason we moved from our last house was because our immediate neighbor let her dog bark constantly. We called by-law, we talked to her, etc, but she still let that dog bark. She did curb the dog's barking, but 5 minutes here and 5 minutes there 20 times a day can be just annoying and frustrating. I realize that your neighbors are doing things which bother you, but their offences are not carte-blanche for you to let your dog bark, and this would only escalate the situation. I think you should deal with these issues as completely separate items. I *am* sympathetic to your situation as I have dealt with bad neighbors on many occasions. The first thing you need to realize is that there are some things you are powerless to change. The leaves may be an example of this depending on your local by-laws. Before speaking to your neighbors, find out what the local laws and by-laws are concerning your particular issues. The next step is to then either speak to your neighbor or write a polite letter stating your concerns. Keep it very cordial and to the point. Don't turn it into a large rant bringing up every little incident that's occured. This only serves to inflame the situation. You can't expect your neighbors to know something is annoying you if you don't talk to them. Its important to remember that while you might be all riled up, they may have no clue. Keep your calm when speaking to them. If this doesn't work, then you start escalating by calling by-law/police. Hope this helps.

I'm glad the curry worked for the digging. I personally don't have diggers, but I once used cayenne pepper mixed into a paste to keep Sam from chewing on the corners of the 1/4 round (he suddenly started doing this when we moved into our first house, then stopped). As to your second question, I feel for you. You want to do what's best for the dog, but at the same time you can't have BK destroying the house or escaping and possibly getting killed (God forbid). I came to the conclusion some time ago that being locked up inside is the safest thing for my dogs. It may be boring for them, but they will be safe. It also has the advantage of not coming home to any "surprises". Depending on the amount of room you have, you might be able to do what I did. I went and bought an outdoor dog enclosure and set it up in my basement. I had the old carpet from our livingroom left from when we changed the carpet, so I "carpeted" the bottom so they aren't lying on concrete. The enclosure is chainlink and tubing, and you have to assemble it, but that's a good thing because it means it will fit in your car and down you stairs. It also has a dog proof door (latch can't be nudged up by a nose). There are different sizes available, mine is about 12' x 12', and they are not that expensive. I got mine at Petsmart. Unlike a crate its big enough that they can run around and play, or lie down and stretch out. I can also leave their water and food in there with them. I know you want the best for your dog, as we all do. BK making as escape, destroying the exterior of the house, upsetting your mum, these cannot be in his best interest. As much as I hate locking my boys up for the day, I do it because that's the best solution and I know they will be safe.

I think Gooeydog's advice is excellent. You need to break the past association and make a new one. Once your dog associates the leash going on as a good thing, I think he will act much differently.

You can lead a horse to water.... The first thing question is; Does you husband want to improve his relationship with the dog? If he doesn't, I'm not sure there's much you can do. If he does want to improve things, there is no substitute for time. I would recommend that your husband spend time alone with the dog. Not sitting in front of the TV time with the dog at this feet, but actually playing and interacting with your dog. This is an excellent opportunity to do some training as well. Have him grab some treats and practice some basic commands. This has two advantages. It builds the bond between your dog and your husband, and it builds you dog's confidence. Lecter will come to associate your husband with fun and treats. Building your dog's confidence is probably the #1 thing you can do to help alleviate some of the behaviours you refer to. Separation anxiety, constantly following you around, destructive behaviour - these all arise from poor self confidence. I speak from experience. My German Shepherd Travis was extremely shy and very poor self-esteem. He was constantly going to my wife for reassurance, and avoiding me as the Alpha-male. He was also destructive when left alone. With patience, time and love, we were able to build up his self-confidence. This alleviated the issues with his destructive behaviour, as well as making him much more affectionate with me.

Goblin, No, my wife and I don't have any children by choice. Perhaps I would feel differently if we did. And I concur with your final post, it is futile to try and convince the other of the validity of our positions. It simply comes down to different choices. But to answer your question, my obligations and responsibility are to my family as well. The difference is that I include my dogs in my definition of family. I do not have "lesser" family members. I was intrigued by what you said regarding leaving my wife without a husband, and last night my wife and I discussed this topic at length. What my wife basically told me is that she would expect me to do everything that I can to save one of the boys (as she would), and to not do so would be to betray who I am. My wife would still have a husband, but that husband would not be the same man she fell in love with. And I do not want to be that person. I would be haunted by the thought that I hadn't done all that was possible. Understand that I am not talking about a Hollywood "Sophie's Choice" style dilemma, with a Nazi officer asking me to chose between my wife or my dogs. I am talking about something that could realistically happen, such as a fire, falling through ice, being attacked by another animal, etc... If one of my dogs were in trouble, and there was even a slim chance that I could save them, I would do so. What kind of man would I be if I did not do everything possible to save those that I love most? I would be a selfish coward. I do, however, completely understand your position and the decision you have made, and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. It is a very personal matter that we all have to decide for ourselves. I am curious however, if you have followed your decision to its logical end. In the future you will perhaps be blessed with another child. God-forbid, if one of your children were in mortal danger, do you let him/her perish? This is the most logical decision, since to die saving one child would not only leave your wife a widow but a single mother as well, and leave your remaining child fatherless. The rational decision is to let the one perish, because as Capt. Kirk was so fond of saying; "The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few." Letting the one die to be around and provide for the remainder of your family is the logical decision. Again, I do not disagree with your decision. It is the right decision for you. I just find this an interesting intellectual argument. The reverse can also be argued. If you are willing to die saving your dog, where do you stop? Do you die to save your hamster, your parakeet, your goldfish. Why would a dog deserve to be saved but not your goldfish? One could argue that because dogs are so superbly adapted to us, that the bond is simply much stronger than to other animals. Dunno. Made me think... [quote name='Goblin']Eric, Do you have kids? understand your love for your dog but lets look at this: "Several years ago (before I had dogs) there was a fellow here who drowned trying to save his dog. At the time I thought: "What an idiot". Now I think "That's me". I would die trying to save my boys, and I know that my wife would as well. " Are you saying that your dog is more important than your wife? beacuse if you did God forbid ever loose your life trying to save your dog the only person that would truley suffer would be your wife who would then be with out a dog and a husband. I have thought about this before also and have come to the conclusion that my love and obligations to my family out weight those for the dog. So in my case the dog drownds but my Son still has a father and my Wife a husband! I two Love my dog....but it is just that... a dog[/quote]