Problems!

[kittygirl109]

I took Caeser on a short walk. When we neared my house, he gave a small growl, and nipped me bad enough to make me worried, and it made my skin red. No blood, but I'm really worried. I'm about to cry. :cry: How can I prevent this? Maybe he just wasn't ready to go back home. :cry:

[kittygirl109]

Someone help, please! :cry:

[AllAmericanPUP]

i'd be pretty worried if my dog just all the sudden growled and bit me :o

definately get him to a behaviourist ASAP!

and have him looked at by a vet, have a thyroid and blood tests done to make sure nothing is wrong with him medically that would make him act bad

[kittygirl109]

I'll talk to my parents about it.

I went on a very short walk though, and I think maybe he was upset because he didn't want to go back. Maybe it was a leader of the pack thing.

What do you think?

[kittygirl109]

Update: I rubbed Caeser's belly, and he seemed to enjoy it, so I don't think it was something he ate. We trained for awhile, and he was a little nippy, so it might be behavioral. We watched part of a movie together, and he was fine there, so...

[Canis erectus]

AAPUP is right, take him to his vet to rule out the possibility of a medical issue first. If nothing's medically wrong make an appaointment with a behavioralist.

[kittygirl109]

Thanks, CE. I'll see how he is tomorow. If he's still not better, I'll take the advice.

[DogPaddle]

If it turns out he nipped because he didn't want the walk to end, as oppossed to a thyroid problem or some vet issue, I would definately go with a strict NILIF thing. If you can get to a behaviourist great but definately NILIF.

[kittygirl109]

We don't know of a behaviorlist here. :cry: I'll search for NILIF on google, but they only give a few examples. Please tell me more about the method.

[ESSlover]

NILIF stands for Nothing In Life Is Free

Meaning that he has to do something to get ANYTHING. He wants to go on a walk, he has to do something good (sit, down, roll over, whatever). If he doesnt do what you ask him to do, he doesnt get his walk. Soon enough he'll learn that if he's going to get what he wants, he needs to do what you want first.

Something like that... courtnek can probably explain it better then me though. :wink:

[DogPaddle]

Yeah Courtnek is probably best at explaining it. It also includes things like going through the door first, not letting them on the bed or couch unless invited and in general reinforcing pack order. It's not mean or angry - just very firm.

[courtnek]

arriving as called....LOL....this is a "whos on first" dominance issue. dog doesnt want to do what you want, dog lets you know with a "hand squeeze"..not hard enough to bite, just to show displeasure. this is the beginning stages of an alpha wannabe. this is how they start. hand squeezes, you buy off on it, not knowing any better, they start making more moves to usurp your place on the pack ladder. Most people dont even realize this is happening. "oh, he only did it once, then twice next week, now he wont get off the bed and my husband has to sleep on the couch"...sounds far fetched? nada. its very common with an alpha wannabe. they break little rules first, if the people dont respond they start breaking bigger rules until they have basically taken over the alpha position, and they run you. then they're dangerous, they will actually attack and bite if they dont get their way. thats not to frighten you, its just to show how these things happen over time.

first step. NILIF...Nothing In Life Is Free...this is pack rules, from a human point of view. we cant snarl, snap and grab neck fur to discipline, but we CAN make them work for EVERYTHING they get from us. A pack alpha would do the same. want to eat? sit. want to go out? lay down.
want to play? sit and stay. NOTHING is given without them doing something for it first. NOTHING. and that where you have to be firm, because alpha wannabe's can suddenly become big lovies when they think they're losing their bid for the alpha slot. you cant stop because now he's behaving. they will do that.

I dont think we need demotion yet (going through doorways first, eat before they do, no couches, no beds) because this is the beginning phase.
you caught it and reported it. most people dont. I think your pup can be turned around right now with just NILIF.

NILIF is a fair, non-hurting (dont even have to yell) way to train a dog that you're the boss. I have had to break dogs using demotion over the years, because the owners didnt reognize the signs until it was too late.
its not too late for you and yours. get started now. The dog will be happier (they really need to know, and sometimes, be put, in their place)
and you will too. PM me if you need help.

8) 8)

[JackieMaya]

NILIF stands for Nothing In Life Is Free

Meaning that he has to do something to get ANYTHING. He wants to go on a walk, he has to do something good (sit, down, roll over, whatever). If he doesnt do what you ask him to do, he doesnt get his walk. Soon enough he'll learn that if he's going to get what he wants, he needs to do what you want first.

Isn't this just a normal part of training? It always has been for me with any dog I've had. My dogs all sit and wait before they go out the door, sit before they get their food, give things to me if I want them, etc.

When I first teach them "give", I grab the end of what they have, but don't pull it, and say "give." I don't pull it because then they think it's a game. I look at them in the eyes and say "give", and it doesn't take too long for them to figure out that I'm not going to give up. When they give it to me, I give them LOTS of praise.

[courtnek]

for people who understand the workings of a pack, yes it is. I dont think the poster does. many of the problems I see with dogs both surrendered to shelters, and put to sleep, is because of "aggression" they didnt expect. People think in people terms. dogs think in pack rules. if we are going to train and own them, we need to think in "pack rules" as well. those are the only rules they "know", they are instinctive. we can use that to make our cohabitation peaceful and friendly.


8)

[Seijun]

It sounds like maybe he just didn't want the walk to end, but I would definitely start reinforcing NILIF if you don't already. BTW, what position were his ears and tail in when he growled/bit? Did you happen to notice whether or not his pupils dilated or contracted to any noticeable degree?

Every once in a while my Shilo will knock over her doghouse to get me to take her out to fix it. She also knows that going back in her room means getting a snack (she knocks over doghouse, I take her out of kennel, she goes back in with a treat). To prevent her from thinking that she is actually being rewarded for destroying her room, I have tried to avoid giving her a treat when she goes back in her room after knocking over her doghouse. Unfortunately, she doesn't always like that. The other night when she had knocked her doghouse over, when I tried to get her back in the kennel, she knew there were no treats in her room so she absolutely did NOT want to go in. I was holding onto her collar and every time she felt it tug she would "scream" and start flipping around, clawing, kicking, and nipping. After I finally got her in, I looked as though I had been attacked by a bear! It was not an alpha issue though. She is submissive to me at almost all other times, and her ears were back and tail tucked in as I was trying to get her back in the kennel (this told me that even though she was fighting me, she was trying to show me that she wanted to be submissive at the same time). She hates going in unrewarded SO much that she is willing to put up a fight, even against the "alpha." If your dog is submissive to you at all other times, it may not be that he was trying to "take over," it could just be that he hated going home so much that he was willing to fight you over it (again, watch the eyes, tail, and ears--this can tell you a lot about what your dog is thinking!). Besides NILIF, I would also suggest rewarding him whenever you get home. Give him something he REALLY likes so that he associates going home with good things. I always give Shilo breakfast/supper the moment we get home, so she is almost always very eager to get home.

~Seij

[courtnek]

sorry Seij but I have to disagree. your dog, IMO, is knocking over the house because she knows you will fix it, then treat her. she has learned to expect a treat on recall to the house. not a bad thing, but I wouldnt tolerate the house wrecking. if she screams, yells and panics, a new command is needed. CHILL!! when chilled, she gets treated. otherwise, put her on a leash and make her come in, no treat. they are like children, and very manipulative. they learn what works for them, very quickly.

CHILL works very well on my dogs. it basically means SHUT UP AND DO WHAT I TOLD YOU...

sounds harsh, but it works. mine have "bitch wars"..they go into snapfests over stupid things (bones, etc. stupid in my opinion, since they both get one equally) but the one tries to Lord it over the other by stealing. when a snapfest starts, I stomp, yell, and smack them both upside the muzzle. they CHILL..in no time at all....

[JackieMaya]

With my dogs, instead of "chill" I say "time out," which means the same as chill does for your dogs.

And I agree with everything that Courtnek said.

[Seijun]

courtnek napisał(a):

sorry Seij but I have to disagree. your dog, IMO, is knocking over the house because she knows you will fix it, then treat her. she has learned to expect a treat on recall to the house. not a bad thing, but I wouldnt tolerate the house wrecking.

I know Court, isn't that what I explained? :D I know that is why she knocks over her doghouse (I thought I mentioned that in my post, oh well). Unfortunately, force is the only thing that will get her into her kennel if there are no treats in there. She has been like this even since the first day I brought her home. There is no way around it though, if I reward her in any way going back in her kennel (or even before I put her in the kennel) after she destroys her doghouse, she WILL associate that with her act of knocking the doghouse over. She is stubborn, and the only way to get her in the kennel voluntarily is if there is actually food in there. I can't risk "helping" to teach her that knocking over the doghouse is "good" though.
I have tried commands to settle her down, but when she is that upset over something, no command will work--it

[Guest Anonymous]

just a little comment on the original poster...

I think NILIF is a great idea! your dog will learn all sorts of manners from this and the annoying behaviors tend to just dissapear.

The one thing I want to point out is that biting is not acceptable. it is something that can be fixed with NILIF, but I think that something more immediate and impressive is warranted in a situation where a dog bites its handler--be it a warning or a real bite.

my boy ares bit me about a month and a half ago. he was playing with another puppy. all day, they had been playing and they would get a little rough. this time, they were getting possessive over a toy. not really thinking, I just reached down (half talking to another person) and put my arm around his chest. he bit my face--i assume because he was already wound up and thought it was the other dog. I dont believe in corporal punishment for dogs, in general. but, that day, he got it. I didnt roll him or anything like that, just grabbed him by the back of the neck and told him firmly "NO!" several times and stared him right in the eyes. he got the idea.

if you are walking your dog and it nips, bites, or otherwise, CORRECT her. there is nothing more UNNATURAL for a dog than to grow up without corrections. you dont have to collapse their world for every little infraction, but you should let them know that certain things are not acceptable (biting is one, food aggression is another).

I know some people are going to disagree with me, but most dogs are very handler sensitive and sensitive to correction/praise. some dogs arent and they need to be corrected a little bit.

Joseph

[courtnek]

I'm sorry Seij....if getting her into her kennel is that much of an issue, then maybe try this....

hot dogs, raw meat, bones from the butcher..something unresistable....

then train using those treats. milk bones isnt gonna do it in this case..

8)

[Seijun]

She will go into the kennel for ANY food, I only have issues when she has knocked over her doghouse. You see my predicament? The only way I can get her in is to give her food, which is no problem regularly. My problem arises when she knocks over her doghouse. I have to take her out of the kennel to fix it. I could easily get her back in again if I threw some dogfood into the back, but then she sees that as a reward for knocking the doghouse over (so my only choice is to put her in without food--that is when she fights, because she is not willing to go in without food).

BTW, she is a food proccessor, to go near her with raw meat is suicide, lol. To her, any food is unresistable. Tricky gal, isn't she? :wink:

~Seij

[Guest Mutts4Me]

Seijun napisał(a):

My problem arises when she knocks over her doghouse. I have to take her out of the kennel to fix it.

Have you tried getting a cable, and instead of taking her out of the kennel when you fix the doghouse, just hooking her up inside the kennel while you do it, so she never gets to get out as reward for knocking the house over?

[Seijun]

Hmm.. Hadn't thought of that, but I don't think it would work. I would have to let her off before I left, and she would end up trying to shove past me as I left out the door. I have tried going in there to fix it and then leaving again while she is in the kennel (not taking her out, like you said) but she has tried shoving past me and it is another fight to keep her in. No nipping and scratching those times, but that doesn't make it any easier to keep a 70 pound sled dog at bay. It is very risky--if she gets loose, it is very hard to get her back, and I don't want to risk her running away and/or hurting someone else's roaming pet. Luckily though, she very rarely knocks over her doghouse now, so it is not a problem I have to deal with very often.

~Seij

[kittygirl109]

I'm gonna try NILIF. I'll let you guys know how it goes. :D

[courtnek]

Seij, I'm thinking find a way to affix the kennel to the ground permanently. that takes away her ability to knock it over. you could try
metal fence posts attached to the kennel and drive them at least 6 inches into the ground, 8 to 10 is even better. also, if she is running past you out the door you can put her leash on inside, and attach it to a runner outside between the house and the kennel/doghouse. make her sit and hold her there until after you have the door open. it will take some work, but I believe it can be done.

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