Help me with my somewhat agressive dog.

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi Everyone...

First time posting here. I have a 7 month old border terrier puppy. She's the sweetest thing except for one thing. Lately, when she gets something in her mouth that I don't want her to have, when I try to take it out, she growls SO viciously...totally turns into another dog...and bites my fingers SO, SO hard so I can't get what's in her mouth. It's really frustrating me and I want and have to change this behavior. I want her to drop it, when I say drop it. It's really gotten into a chasing game when she has something she knows I don't want her to have. I never wind up getting it and lately, I just give up, because she's really hurt me in the past from reaching in her mouth. Usually it's tissues, or a paper towel and she'll wind up swallowing it, but I just can't get it from her because she gets SO vicious and scary. I started something I know is probably wrong, but I had to because sometimes she would get something dangerous in her mouth...I put a yummy treat in front of her and try to get her to trade the item for the treat. It works sometimes...not all the time. I don't like doing it and I have to chase her to show her the treat, which i know she enjoys.

What in the world can I do to fix this problem? I looked online today for how to teach your dog the Drop It command. It said to give her something that she values, like a toy and then show her that you have a desirable treat in your hand and try to get her to trade and say drop. Well, it just wasn't working because as soon as she smelled the treats, she didn't care about the toy. I then tried giving her a little piece of paper towel to trade for the treat. She dropped it for a second, ate the treat and when I reached for the paper towel, she did her vicious growl and went for my fingers. I kept trying and the same thing happened. How am I going to fix this behavoir?

I can't wait for some ideas. By the way, I'm training her the Leave it command and she's doing well with that, but I just need a solution for when she already has something in her mouth.

Thanks,
Carolyn

[pyrless]

I have a question for you. Is she showing teeth, growling with her lips pulled back?
Taz (the lovely boy in my signature) was still teething at seven months and putting everything he could into his mouth. Getting him to give something up is still hard today at 3, you can imagine the time i had! 8) Anyway, when he plays his little games, he grunts, growls and generally makes a scene, but never shows teeth. I occasionally got too close and got nicked. And it seems like your girl has already turned this into a game! (who trains who, right? :D )
Keep working on "Drop It", you are doing all the right things. Use something yummy that takes awhile, like rawhide or stuffed real bones.
If she IS showing teeth, though, talk to a professional, either your vet or a behaviorist.

[Guest Anonymous]

get a pinch-prong collar. attach a short line (2-3 feet) that has no knots or handle on it (so it does not get caught on furniture, etc.

When she is chewing on something, tell her to drop it. If she doesn't approach her standing straight up and take hold of the line. tell her again to drop it. if she doesnt, give her a pop (a pop, not a pull or a shake) and tell her a third time to drop it.

at this point, you know that she either does not know or is not listening to your command. reach for the item. if she growls, give her a pop (again, a pop, not a pull or shake) and tell her "NO." continue to pop and reach for the item until you can pull it out of her mouth. each time, escalate the severity of the pop, but not the severity of your voice.

many people dont like the idea of a pinch-prong collar. the flip side of the coin is what if she starts chewing on something that is not a tissue--like your credit card, or a power cord that is plugged in?

Always remember that one firm correction is worth at least 1000 nagging corrections. when you say something the dog needs to know you mean it and you are going to follow through on it.

Joseph

[Guest Anonymous]

In the mean time of getting her to drop it, get her used to you being in control of what she eats. By taking the food away, taking the biscuit out of her mouth and leaving it out of reach. Also get her used to your fingers in her mouth. When she's in a good mood, use a doggie toothbrush and brush her teeth, or move her lips around to look at the back teeth, or hold her mouth open. A friend's dog, daisy gets very aggressive whenever you try to take a treat away, but the family has done nothing to correct and just says leave her alone. On the other hand, when I had Moogle, and now Kiani, I constantly mess with thier mouth, food, treats, paws, and brush them. It lets them know that I'm in control of every little thing that they do.
BTW, cheese is a very handy treat to have ready for these occasions. Kiani isn't a fan of all doggy biscuits and only eats them when she wants them, cheese on the other hand is gurantee.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks for all of the replies. I'm happy this is such an active forum because I HAVE to conquer this. Regarding the pinch collar...I know absolutely nothing about those and to be honest, it kind of intimidates me. What would that do? Would she automatically drop whatever is in her mouth when I "popped" it? What is a pop?

Regarding the teeth issue...I'm not sure if she's showing teeth, I think she must be though if she's biting me so stinkin' hard. I'll look next time, but I don't want there to be a next time because my poor little fingers can't take anymore. It's weird because she does NOT do this if I try to take away a good bone or something...just things that are not food or treats, like paper towels, the cap to something, a pinecone outside...anything she knows I don't want her to have. Maybe with me yelling NO so much, it encourages this behavoir, you think? I do give her loud and very stern No's but I feel like I'm talking to the wall. It means nothing to her.

I like the idea of giving her a treat while we're practicing DROP IT that will take her a while to eat. I was only giving her tiny little pieces of treats, so no wonder why she got mad when my hand went to the paper towel. So, my hubbie and I just practiced DROP IT for a few minutes with her. I gave her a rawhide, but when she smells the yummy treats in my hand, she droped the rawhide even before I could say anything. I couldn't think of anything else to give her that she would like enough to keep in her mouth, but would be willing to drop it. So, I decided to give her this inch size treat that she likes...T-Bones available in Target. I left the bag unsealed so they got really hard so it takes her forever to eat them. So I gave her a treat and let her start to get into it, then presented her with the yummier treat...those kong stuffer beef and liver soft things. I just got them last night for the first time so these are a totally new taste sensation for her. I said drop, she dropped the T-Bone and I gave her the treat and praised her. We did this successfully like 6 times. Then, the last couple times I did this, she started to catch on and started growling alittle and going for my hand when I was reaching to grab her T-Bone off the floor while she was eating the kong treat. So, I stopped the training. She was not nearly as vicious as she gets when I used to reach in her mouth to pull something out, but she started growling. Any thoughts?

The cheese idea sounds good, but are you saying to use that when she has something bad in her mouth or are you saying to train her the DROP IT command with it? To me, if I give her a treat when she has something bad in her mouth, I'm rewarding the bad behavoir, isn't that right?

I like the idea of getting her used to my fingers being in her mouth when she's in a good mood. I'll try it. I'm just scared, she's get "growly" and bite down, but I'll try. When you say take the biscuit out of her mouth, I'm not really sure if she would growl or not because that is safe so I never try, but I will. I definitely want her to know I'm in control and I feel on this issue, she is winning! :(

Regarding the idea to give her a command when she has something in her mouth to try to get her attention on something else...she really doesn't do any one command all the time when I say it. I've taught her to sit, but sometimes she doesn't. I'd say when I say sit, she does it 80% of the time, but if she had something in her mouth and I said sit, she would just keep the thing in her mouth.

I really haven't trained her that much. I know it's extremely important, but I am chronically ill and it's hard to have the energy to do it. I got a puppy so I would HAVE to exercise to try to better my health and I definitely get more exercise from her. I'm also a procrastinator and perfectionist. So many days, I think, "Oh, I could teach her something," but I feel overwhelmed by it and think that it's just too hard and will take forever to get her "the way I want her" so I just don't start because it feels too overwhelming. I KNOW what you're all thinking. I definitely need a change of attitude. I love her so much and want to train her, I just need motivation, some positive thoughts that she and I can accomplish things and some physical energy to do it. Regarding the obedience classes, I really don't have the physical energy at this point to go and stand there with her. Standing is tough for me for long periods of time...more than about 3 minutes...I get really weak. So, I take Allie for short walks, longer ones when I feel physically up to it and we do a lot of playing on my living room floor with her toys. I'm always wondering if she gets enough exercise, but I think I'm doing really well with her considering my situation. We walk/play in the morning, afternoon and evening and then she's out of her crate at night for a few hours with us. It's tough to take care of her, but it's been worth it because she gives me so much joy and many smiles and laughs. I just want her to be a well-adjusted, well behaved dog.

Looking forward to your replies! Should I just keep working on the drop it command even though:

1) I'm giving her something to drop that she likes.
2) She's showing her "growling" while we're practicing.

Thanks!
Carolyn :D

Candle Find - The Site for Candle Lovers!
http://www.candlefind.com

[Guest Anonymous]

Well try after a few times of practicing, don't reward her, let her see the treat, grab the old one and walk away with both, and keep both out of sight.
Senerio:
She goes outside to go wee wee
you tell her "good girl"
come back inside and give her a treat. After getting a couple bites on it, but not a lot, show her a better treat.
Tell her to drop it, give a small small piece of the yummy treat. take the old one away and set them on the counter out of site.
After a while, just randomly walk up to her and tell her drop, take it away and put it out of site.
I know it seems like a reward for bad behavior, but if you let her assume she's getting something good, she'll probably drop it, then just be really disappointed when she doesn't recieve a thing in return. But you're always rewarding for good behavior cause she's listening to your command of "Drop". And some dogs will try to outsmart you, by learning that putting something bad in thier mouth will yeild a yummy treat. (and realize that they will have to drop the bad thing to get the good thing). So you'll need to get that yummy treat out of mind as soon as possible.

I think it hurts so much from her bites because it's still puppy teeth, which always seem sharper than thier grown up teeth. As far as behaviorist and trainers, (if you can afford it) can come to your house to do some one on one training. Or ask around your neighborhood and see if there are some other dog owners that wouldn't mind going to your house for some socializing and training, to help cut down the cost of a personal trainer. There's bound to be some one to help ya out.
BTW, what kind of puppy is it?

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks for the advice Sandra. Sounds interesting, I think I'll try it. Do you think I should still do the "DROP IT" training sessions with her or just do what you are saying randomly throughout the day?

Also, When you said, "After a while, just randomly walk up to her and tell her drop, take it away and put it out of site." What are you referring to her dropping? A toy? A treat? Sorry, but I'm a bit confused by what you meant there.

Thanks,
Carolyn

[Guest Anonymous]

let me start by saying a couple of things:

1) you obviously care, because you sought out the help of others with this issue. for that, I commend you!!!

2) basic obedience and manners are not hard to train. not at all. if you have a good understanding of dog pack behavior and drives, you can train almost any dog to do almost anything. there are some REALLY cool books. the make it seem SO simple, because it is. I would REALLY recommend a book called "Mother Knows Best." It is the first book I ever read about training and I applied principles from it to all of my dogs. the hardest part about training is training yourself. your dog is going to love you no matter what. you have to make sure that you raise a dog that you can live with, so you dont have to break her heart (and yours) and give her away. it IS frustrating. It DOES test your patience. It IS the most aggrevating thing in the world sometimes. BUT, when it starts to fall into place (and it will ALL start to fall into place ALL at once) it feels SOOOOO good and you know you have a friend that loves you and that you can live with for a long time.

now, moving onto the issue at hand...
it is odd that she doesnt show any of this behavior with a bone or something. i think that she is getting bored or used to the items that she has to chew on all the time.

on the other hand, i like to get to the bottom of things when thinking about dogs---they arent as complicated as we sometimes want them to be. as far as i am concerned, no dog should ever really growl (as opposed to play "grunting" when tugging, etc.) at its handler. rarely is this not some sort of dominance issue.

this doesnt mean that you have to beat the dog down, but it does mean that you need to react to this soon! pinch collars have the advantage over conventional choke collars in that they hurt (yes, they hurt). a choke collar requires constant pulling and prodding and you dont get an instant message across to the dog. with most dogs, most of the time, if it isnt an instant message, it isnt a message period. when you administer the "pop" and a firm "No!" at the same time, the dog associates not only the behavior that it was corrected for with a negative sensation, but also, the word "no!" think of it as a reverse Pavlov's situation.

a "pop" is a single movement, straight up, not violent, but not nice. it is the motion of what your commands should be: firm, calm, and authoratative. it is not likely that you will overuse the pinch collar. quite the opposite. in fact, most people are too timid with them at first. your dog will not like it, she will probably sulk the first time you correct her with it. on the other hand, you wont have to correct her often.

in a "pack" (which is now you and your family) a subordinate dog would rarely, if ever, growl at a dominant pack member. further, subordinate dogs do one of two things with food, etc when approached by a dominant dog. either the subordinate will drop the item and leave it, or scurry away with it. if you have cornered your dog, it should drop it, not fight back.

other ways to further your dominace include:

1) eating before and in front of the dog. do not let the dog touch you while you eat. (i dont let me dog look at me while i eat either). if she touches/looks at you or goes for your food, react harshly.

2) when she is sleeping wake her up, move her. she does not have "her spot in the house." the house is yours and you are kind enough to let her stay there.

3) when she is eating, take her food from her. give it back, but make her wait until you say ok to start eating.

4) periodically, just stare at her. she should ALWAYS break her gaze first and it shouldnt take more than a minute. (there is an excaption to this. dogs are sometimes just fascinated with the face. you can tell when a gaze is "grrrrr you look away first" and when it is "hey! watcha lookin at me for?"

DO NOT EVER PERFORM AN ALPHA ROLL!!! If you have never heard of this, good!!! If you have, dont EVER use it. The alpha role is when you flip your dog onto its back and hold it until it stops resisting. There are few times when this is necessary and it should never be done by someone who is not a professional. If you are not willing to engage your dog in an alpha roll when it is full grown and you are not feeling well, dont start doing it.

I dont know that this is true, but it sounds like you are repeating commands to your dog. when you issue a command, assuming that your dog heard you, one of two things should happen from there: your dog obeys and you "love it up" and praise her like she just came up with a cure to cancer OR she does not obey at which point you "enforce" the command. you dont correct at this point, just reinforce. if you say sit and she doesnt sit, you go over and put her in a sit while saying it again. when she sits, she gets no praise or anything from you. you had to "enforce" the command, she did not do it on her own, so she gets nothing.

also, when training, never end on a negative note. you say that she was growling at you, so you gave up. that reinforces her behavior. she growls because she wants you to leave her alone, and VIOLA!, you do. next time, she will growl sooner. ending on a good note will leave you feeling better too!!!!

An easy way to approach basic training and reaction to your dog is to think everytime, "how does my dog want me to react to this behavior?" if the behavior is something that you do not want to reinforce, do not react like your dog wants you to. if it something that is good, react positively and exactly like you think your dog wants you to.

good luck, keep us posted.

Joseph

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi Joseph...thanks for some really great information. I am definitely going to do those things to show her my dominance. You know, it's funny...at first when I got her I was reading everything to learn how dogs "work," then after a while, we just got into our daily routine and I forgot most of it. However, now that you've reminded me, I'm definitely going to work on it. I have been free feeding her. I always have her bowl out with her dry food in it just because I never want her to feel hungry. BUT, I think this is a good idea to just give her her food when I say it's ok. She's not a dog that will eat a ton of food in front of her, so I've been trying to get her to eat 3 times a day. Is that too much? I've been wondering. Maybe twice a day, or is that not enough?

I'd like to try to move her when she's sleeping, but she sleeps in her crate. She used to fall asleep on me every night when she was out before I went to bed, but she doesn't do that anymore. It seems lately, like her energy doesn't run out! BTW, does the crate help or hurt with the dominance issue or does it not effect that?

I'll look at your book recommendation on Amazon. I bought a dog training DVD to help train her. The name of it is: Train Your Dog - The Positive Gentle Method. I've only tried a couple of the commands on there though. The women on the dvd make it look SO easy. The puppies just sit there well behaved even before they start the training lessons. My Allie on the other hand, is a different story. She is so hyper all the time...jumping, play nipping and running around. I "think" she is a border terrier. I got her from a puppy store and they told me her mother was a fox terrier and her mother was a shi-poo. So, for a couple months, that's what I reluctantly thought she was. I kept looking online at fox terrier photos and she looked absolutely NOTHING like that at all. She didn't have that long face or the features that a fox terrier does. So one night, my hubbie and I were flipping through the channels and came across a dog show and to our shock, the dog that was running around the ring at that moment, looked EXACTLY like Allie. They said the dog was a border terrier, so I looked up some pictures online and some of the pics looked just like her. I'm still not 100% though about her breed b/c some of the pics online of border terriers look like they have wider and beefier faces than Allie. Also, she has a curled up tail and the border terriers I see online don't. SO, she's my little mystery, but I am dying to figure it out! I got some new toys shipped to me for me yesterday and to my shock again, the picture on the front of one of the toy boxes is Allie to a tea. The toy is the Intellibone from Plush Puppies.

ANYWAY, I'm interested in the pinch collar, I'm just a little scared and have a lot of questions about using it. What do you mean I would do? Deliberately put a piece of paper towel on the floor while she has the collar on so I can pop her? I wouldn't want it on her while she's not doing the bad behavoir. Please elaborate.

Regarding the thought about getting bored with her toys and chew things...she does. That's why I just got her new dog toys. I happened to pick up a rawhide the other night from CVS and as of this moment, she has been chewing it for an hour straight! This is amazing for Allie! She has NEVER been interested in her nylabones this long before. I don't feel that comfortable with rawhides, but it's obvious how much she loves them. I only let her have them when she's right with me so I can watch her. Do you think since she's having so much fun with the rawhides this bad behavior might get a little better? I'm praising her like crazy right now because she is being so good sitting next to me with it.

I might have some more questions for you, but my mind is fading since it's 10PM....my bedtime and Allie's! I'm sure I'll think of more things to ask, so I'll be posting tomorrow.

Thanks for all of your help!

Carolyn

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='candlefind'] Regarding the pinch collar...I know absolutely nothing about those and to be honest, it kind of intimidates me. What would that do? Would she automatically drop whatever is in her mouth when I "popped" it? What is a pop?



First of all, I'm not adamantly opposed to the use of a prong, though I am admittedly very hesitant to use one as a first resort. Ok, I'll admit that I'm one of those touchy feely kinds that doesn't like prongs, but then again, I never say never. While I haven't had to use one on any of my own dogs, I won't say it's something I'll never consider. I've just never had to before.

Anyway, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of trusting implicitly the advice regarding prongs and really any behavioral modification involving possible aggression from an internet forum (no offense meant to the people trying to help). If you are wrong in your assessment and therefore improperly handling, you can do more harm than good. This forum is a great place for dog lovers to share advice and insight, but I truly believe that if you are having problems like this with your dog and are unsure how to perceive her behavior and body language, your best bet is to have a professional assess her and then offer a plan of action based on what they see. With the issues you seem to be having, it wouldn't be hard to do the opposite of what you're trying to do which would mean making this dog potentially fearful and even more aggressive. I know she's just a puppy, but with your apparent confusion over how to read her behavior, I just think you'd do better with some "real" guidance vs. "virtual" guidance. Please don't think I'm dissing you by pointing out your uncertainty reading your doggie's behavior. We all had to start learning somewhere, but with potential aggression problems, I'd just hate to see you be misreading your dog's body language and take advice you see on the internet and apply it improperly. To be honest, I also hate to see someone put a prong on a puppy. That's just me. An older dog with more set in behavior, I can stomach a little better, but I'm really uncomfortable with using this type of training on a puppy, especially a smaller breed (I know, double standard). If it absolutely MUST be done, I'd rather see it under the supervision of a professional rather by someone who's never seen one before on the advice of people that have never seen the dog, though I'd hope a professional would explore other options first. I tend to think of prongs as more of a last resort than a first.

In the meantime, I do agree with the idea of taking the role of top dog in your house, meaning that you control all resources. It doesn't involve any sort of "punishment" which I'd avoid until you can have a professional assess the situation. Others have pretty much said it already, but you'll make the dog "earn" everything she gets. No luxuries such as being on the couch or the bed unless you invite her, that sort of thing.

I know this goes against some of the more popular opinions, but it's just my own two cents.

[courtnek]

ok my take, from having broken a number of much more aggressive dogs over the years.

your pup has a possesion issue. she seems to think that once its hers, no one else can have it. you need to be the top dog in your household, and you should be able to take ANYTHING from your dog, including her dinner, whenever you want to. that means that if you want to stick your fingers in her bowl while shes eating, she better just accept it.

put her on a short 2 foot leash, and leave it on her whenever you are there to watch her. If you go to take something from her and she objects, pull her away from the object with a strong tone of LEAVE IT!
then pick it up and put it up high where she cant get it. the next time she gets it is on your terms, and if she doesnt give it up willingly, she loses it for that session. keep this up till she learns that she gets nothing without your say so, and if you say give it up thats what happens, or she loses it. the leash will prevent you from being bitten in the process. these are pack animals, they know pack rules instincively. YOU have to be the top dog. once you have established that rank, she will no longer try to best you over possesions. you are alpha, EVERYTHING belongs to you, whenever you want to take it.

[Guest Anonymous]

there have been some good points!!!

Anyway, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of trusting implicitly the advice regarding prongs and really any behavioral modification involving possible aggression from an internet forum (no offense meant to the people trying to help). If you are wrong in your assessment and therefore improperly handling, you can do more harm than good.

I agree! I should have started by saying that. It is great to see a professional. The fact of the matter is, however, that even these professionals are questionable at times. Animal behiavior is a relativley new science. At the moment, I feel that animal behavior is more of an art than a science. Anyone with dogs know that they behave completely differently in the face of different people. I think that you should see a professional--if one is available to you--but I also respect the fact that just because a "professional" can illicit appropriate behavior from a dog doesnt mean that your dog is ok. The bottom line is that the dog lives with you. It shares your space and you have to deal with it on a regular basis. I would be willing to bet that I could come to m99.9% of the homes around and make the dog behave. Is it because I am a professional? Hardly. I have a strong presence and I demand attention. Dogs know that and realize a dominant personality. That does not matter. She is your dog and needs to behave for you!!

This is one place where I disagree with most. I firmly believe that puppies are the best candidates for firm correction--be it prong collar or otherwise. These pups are clay; you mold them into what you want them to be. These methods do not invoke fear or spite. Nothing is less natural for a pup than to grow up without firm corrections. I was a little hesitant until I saw a mother dog correcting a 3 month old pup. Talk about scaring the piss out of you!!! I though I was going to have to break up a fight!! If you let your pup grow to maturilty without proper correction, the force that you are going to have to apply is going to be much greater than if you administered severe correction only a few times while the dog was younger.

do not get the picture of constantly "popping the prong" collar. a dog who completely understands that you are alpha is a more agreeably animal in all aspects. you will notice that she sits when you say sit, lays when you say lay, and simply behaves better. it is hard for us to understand in this day, but pain is a natural way to portray dominance, as pleasure is a natural way to portray friendliness. after a day, it is rare to have to correct more than once in THE ENTIRE DAY. think about how much more pleasurable life would be if you and your dog could just hang out most of the day and then give one good correction when necessary!!

Carolyn,
I agree with horsefeathers in that if you are really scared of the prong collar, just go buy a leash and cut it in half--you will have about 2 feet hanging. make sure there are no knots or handles to get caught on stuff. when you correct your dog, pop the collar. that MAY be enough to get the point across. try the same method i described earlier. it may work. if it doesnt, I would recommend graduating to the prong.

Answers to some of your questions:

the crate is an absolutely positive thing. however, it is still YOUR crate and you let your dog sleep in it. if you want to reach in while your dog is sleeping and in the crate, that is your perogative. do not feed your pup in her crate. she should sleep there and stay there when you do not have time to supervise her. eating in a certain place can serve to further the possession issue.

i never recommend "baiting" your pup. dogs are smart. when you bait them and then correct them, i feel that you lose some trust. with a prong, you will attach a small (2 feet) section of leash (with no handles, etc.) when your pup gets into something bad (by herself) she is corrected. she gets herself into trouble and keeps herself out of trouble. i only leave the prong on my dogs when I am in the same room when i can supervise. when i cant, i take it off and replace it with the regular collar. you should start on a friday with the prong. she will wear it friday evening and it will be taken off before bed. then, saturday, make plans to be able to be around her most of the time and supervise her. when you cant, take it off. spend the day correcting her when she gets in trouble. do the same sunday. by sunday morning, you will notice a difference in her behavior I PROMISE. from then on, let her wear the prong only when you can supervise. if it is for one hour one day and 20 mins the next, so be it. it works quickly and it is not meant to be a permanent situation.

within 2-3 months, she will rarely wear the collar (maybe when you are working on obedience and that is it.)

I think that new toys work with dogs like they work with kids. at some points, they will get bored and want bigger, better toys. the end result may be a dog who gets bored all the time and expect constant stimulation. the basic toys are:

a plush toy (stuffed animal type thing)
a raw hide
several nylabones
a rope tug

nothing else should be necessary. I have yet to meet a dog so smart that he needs a nintendo or anything (though, they would love for you to think they do!!!). they get bored because they know they will get new toys!! even if you gave them an exact replica of their other toy, they would like the new one better!

let me know if you have any other questions. I am not a professional, so if you disagree with any of my suggestions, let me know. If you dont like something, let me know and maybe we can come up with a more suitable alternative.

hope this can help!!
Joseph

[gooeydog]

I also agree that a prong collar is not warranted here, and might make things worse (especially since many people need to be shown how to properly fit/use one, and without that, they may do more harm then good even in the best situations).

In addition to what's been said already, I'd put the dog on a hard "work for your food" schedule. No more free feeding. Measure out her food for the day, and split it into several portions, one for each training session (the more sessions you can fit into the day the better, as many short sessions are better than less longer sessions). When you're ready for a session, take one portion of kibble, and use the kibbles as training treats. If she doesn't want to pay attention and work for you, let her go, she'll get hungry before long, and since the ONLY outlet for food will be YOU, she'll have no choice but to comply with your rules. During this time, allow no access to rawhides, toys, chews, etc except for a couple times through the day while you're interacting with her as well (like, take her out and play catch, then toy goes up, I'd cut of chewies and rawhides completely right now, given the nature of her problem). Though this she'll learn that everything she desires and needs comes directly from you, and she'd better do as you say or miss out. This alone will take her down a few pegs in the attitude department, and will also give you a strong reinforcer for training, since if she blows you off, she'll be going hungry until the next session, something she surely won't want.

Keeping in mind that I'm not an expert, and have only dealt with mild resource guarding in my own dogs, more severe in a couple others that I didn't live with, here's something I've used in dealing with resource guarders. I would have basic obedience (sit or down, stay, come) fairly reliable before moving on to the following, if you're making her work for her food, it shouldn't take to long to get them down.

To work on the resource guarding, you want to start with low value objects, things she's only mildly interested in. Then when she's hungry (maybe do a training session that morning, then hold off until evening for this), give the object, then offer a REALLY delicious treat (liver, rollover, hot dogs, cheese are all good options) in exchange, telling her "off" or whatever word you choose. She should drop whatever she has, and feed her a few pieces of your treat as you pick up the object. If you have a problem with her trying to go back to her object, then tell her "off", treat her, put her in a sit, take the object, then treat her again. Keeping working at this with low value objects, until it's become second nature to spit out whatever she's got when you say "off", and she shows no desire to try and swipe it back, or distress at it being taken. Then move to a slightly higher value object, still with HIGH value treats and a hungry dog. Work through the whole process again, as she won't immediately grasp that "off" applies to these objects as well, dogs don't generalize well. Then on to higher value objects, same deal.

There are several books available just on this subject, though I can't remember a single one right now, if you search for "canine resource guarding books", you could probably turn some up.

[Horsefeathers!]

jweissg napisał(a):

It is great to see a professional. The fact of the matter is, however, that even these professionals are questionable at times.

Well, yeah... I've run up on some questionable "trainers" in my time, one of which was a wack job that felt the need to "train" my Lab using a prong. I won't argue technique since I'm aware that this jerk was obviously misusing it, but I got much better results with him using a plain flat collar (not to mention having to pull my dog from that class because I nearly assaulted the "trainer"). The "wack job" description was because this person yanked him to the ground with it to "put him in his place" and he wasn't even aggressive... just a leash lunger. That's my concern... not the technique this person may need to use with their dog (popping vs. yanking... will the average novice dog owner know the difference, especially by words on a screen rather than by actual demonstration?), but rather their perception of it. Trust no one implicitly, trainer, behaviorist, or otherwise, but I still think a prong collar in the hands of a novice without any supervision at all is a recipe for disaster.

I couldn't disagree more about having to bully puppies to "mold" them. I know all about that naturalist mother dog rearing stuff, but since I'm not a mother dog, I like to think I have the advantage of reason rather than just brute strength on my side. I've never had to rough up a puppy to get it to learn, or to correct an undesired behavior, and I'm heavily involved in rescue, primarily special needs (whether physical or behavioral problems) dogs. Two of the resident dogs in my house were formerly aggressive and they've been successfully "re-trained" without the use of brute strength. I don't disagree that there need to be corrections. I suppose I just disagree with how they're administered (brute strength vs. reason). Again, I'm talking a puppy here, not some lumbering monster that's dragging its owner down the street in pursuit of anything moving. I suppose it could be said that dogs don't have a sense of reason, but that makes it all that much easier for ME (the one with reason) to "control" them. I have a pretty commanding presence, too, but it's more in my demeanor and only when appropriate rather than just bullying my dogs into submission. If my shoulder were being yanked out of its socket by a dog, and nothing else worked, I can't say I wouldn't try a prong. For behavioral problems and an attempt to assert my dominance? Well, never say never, but I've not had to resort to it thus far and I've fostered/adopted some pretty challenging dogs.

I'm no trainer, either, and it's not my intention to argue prong technique, efficacy, or whether it's appropriate. I just don't think any novice should be using one without at least the benefit of a professional (or someone more experienced, skilled, or whichever works) showing how it should be done, if it has to be done at all.

[Guest Anonymous]

Alright people...I need more advice and quick. I read all of your posts and am now doing my best to be the top dog in this house. Normally when I wake up in the morning, I take her out to pee, we come inside and I play with her and then give her a stuffed kong with her food and some kong chicken paste so I can have a couple minutes to prepare my breakfast in peace. Then, when my breakfast is ready, I put her in her crate and I eat. She normally cries just about the whole time unless she's really into a bone or something. I know this is wrong, but everyday, I would talk to her when she was crying and tell her it's ok and I'll take her out when I'm done eating. Then after my breakfast, I take her out and we either walk or play a lot inside while she's munching once in a while on her food.

Well, now that you've all made me realize that I need to be the top dog, things were just a lot different this morning. I woke up, came downstairs, took her out to pee. Put her right back in the crate with no food and I ate my breakfast. She barely cried and I didn't look at her once...I ignored her the whole time to show her that I, the ALPHA dog, eat first. (I am touchy feeling, so I felt bad about this b/c she was just in the crate all night and I put her back in that fast). When I was done breakfast, I took ALL of her toys off the floor and put them up high...including all of her bones, plush toys, balls...everything. I put her food up on the coffee table so only I could reach it. I made her work for the food like you said. She did the LEAVE IT command a couple times and SIT a couple times, but wasn't that interested, so no more food. Keep in mind this whole time she was on a two foot leash. I have a retractable leash, so that was easy to figure that out. When I took the food away since she wasn't wanting to work for it, she was looking up at her toys on the table. I didn't know what to do with her because she obviously wanted to play. She was starting to jump on me and go after my scrunchie on my wrist and big the sleeves of my shirt...not cool. She does this when she has tons of energy and wants to play. So, I let her have one plush squeeky ball. I threw it a couple times and she brought it back to me. I successfully got it from her mouth once and then tried a few times after that. She started growling at me and refused to give me the ball...growling and looking at me the whole time. I was sitting over her in a dominant position and kept saying in a stern voice, "DROP IT." She refused and kept growling...I was pulling, she was pulling, I was starring down at her, she was starring up at me. When she was smaller, when she wouldn't respond to a stern NO, I would let out a loud and mean growl of my own and she would stop doing what she was doing and just look at me. When I was sitting over her and starring into her eyes and she was starring back at me, I let out a loud, mean growl and she actually dropped the ball and just looked at me. I praised her, threw the ball again and then we're in the growling tug again. I wanted her to know that I can take things away from her whenever I want, so I tried the growl again when she was growling and refusing to give me the ball. This time, she didn't let go. She started getting more aggresive with me and more "growly" so I eventually pulled the ball out of her mouth, she got mad and I put it away. Then, I'm just sitting there thinking, OK, what do I do with her now? So, I tried to make her work for some more food. We did the leave it a couple times and sit a couple times, then she got uninterested in the working for food and started biting the bottom of my couch and going after my scrunchie and my jean pockets...she does this thing where she digs in them and it drives me nuts! I yell NO and she just keeps on doing it. So, I knew she needed to get more energy out, so I brought the ball back down to the floor and we went through the same thing I described above...me trying to take the ball, her refusing and growling. She got more aggressive again so I just put her in the crate...no food, treats or toys of any kind in there, just water and her blanket.

Now she's sleeping and I have NO idea what I'm going to do! She was only out for maybe a half hour max and I feel like she'll need to come out in a couple of hours and then what? What do I do when she comes out again??? I know she knows something's up because we never have a morning like this...please help me because I don't want to isolate her in the crate too much, but I also don't want to get eaten alive when she has nothing to do and tons of energy to burn!

Thanks,
Carolyn

[Guest Anonymous]

Me again...I just want to explain some things so you know my situation better. Allie usually has about 5 toys on the floor when we're playing at a time. She's always switching from toy to toy after she gets bored with one after a couple of minutes. She gets a lot of treats in the morning and throughout the day...I'm sure too many. I am a touch feely person, so I really think she hasn't been thinking that I am the top dog because she ALWAYS has everything she could ever want right in front of her. She usually has like 3 or more bones out.

She has SO much energy. I find it ironic that I got a dog with boundless energy and I am lacking energy! As I said before, I try to burn as much of her energy as I can...usually leaving me extremely exhausted after our play sessions. When she has tons of energy that needs to be burned with either a walk or play time, she grabs the bottom of my jeans when I'm walking around the house and pulls on them. I yell a stern NO and she doesn't stop. After I play with her or walk her, she doesn't do this anymore. This bad behavoir drives me crazy! I've heard from other people, I need to stop what I'm doing, walk away from her, turn my back on her and just stand there and she'll stop...WRONG! She just follows me and keeps pulling my jeans. It's SO frustrating! The only thing I have come up with to lessen this behavoir is to walk around with one of her squeeky toys tied to the bottom of a long rope or thick string...then she goes after that instead of my legs and feet. This is really a behavoir I want to conquer too.

Here's some info on our days when it comes to the crate...

MORNING...out of crate...playing and eating and walking for about an hour or possibly more.

IN CRATE for maybe 3-4 hours so I can rest, work and do house stuff. (toys, bones and water in crate)

AFTERNOON - out of crate for another hour or half hour of playing, eating and walking.

IN CRATE until about 7 at night so I can do more resting, working and other things.

7-10 - Out of crate until I go to bed...more playing, eating and walking.

IN CRATE at 10:00PM untill the next morning when it starts all over again.

She eats Science Diet Puppy Bites...she's not crazy over it...like I said, she isn't a big eater...if I fill her bowl, she won't sit there and eat the whole thing. The most is she sits there and eats for only a couple minutes max...probably b/c I'm spoiling her with treats and stuff. I've wondered about changing her food. I tried Iams a few months ago. It made her MUCH more energetic, (imagine that!) and more aggressive. It was so wierd. When I stopped feeding her the Iams and went back to Science Diet, she went back to her version of "normal."

The main thing I want to share is the fact that she gets aggressive and "bitey" if she needs/wants to play or walk. Let's say she doesn't feel like she got enough play...I'm sitting on the couch, she comes up and starts biting my shirt sleeves and my arm! I guess it's her way of telling me she needs more play time, but sometimes it's after I've played with her for a little while.

Now that I'm making her work for her food, I'm wondering if I should make her work for treats instead. I'm ONLY saying this b/c her food doesn't interest her as much as treats do and then maybe we could have more successful training sessions. BUT, then she wouldn't be getting her food which is important. What do you think?

Another similarly agressive behavoir happens when I'm training her sometimes. If I have a really awesome treat and she wants it, she'll start nipping my arms or hands and comes toward me basically saying, "GIVE ME THAT! I DON'T WANT TO WORK FOR IT, JUST LET ME HAVE IT!"

Another thing that is bugging me, is that lately when we take walks, if there is ANYTHING outside that she's afraid of, she stops in her tracks, turns around and pulls the leash so hard to go back to our house. When she does this, I have been turning around with her to go back because I have no choice..she is pulling that hard to get back to "safety." I DON'T want a dog that is fearful of things like this and I want her to be able to get through a walk without demanding we turn around soon after we leave the house. I decided this morning on our walk, that no matter what, I would get her past whatever would scare her this time so we could walk beyond it. So, on our walk just now, there was a bicycle laying a few doors down on my neighbors lawn right near the sidewalk where we walk. She saw it and immediately started the turn around thing...pulling so hard to get back home. I kept saying in a stern voice and kindof pulling the leash my way, COME ON ALLIE. She absoutely refused. I didn't know what the right thing would be to do at this point to get her over this fear, so I picked her up and we walked past the bicycle to the next house. I put her down and was hoping she would continue walking with me. She walked several feet and then stopped, turned around and pulled SO hard that I had no other choice but to walk her back to our house. What do I do in this situation? I don't want her to be this scared of everything.

I really want to try to conquer all of this without a professional. Besides the money issue, I agree with a previous poster that said I am the one that has to deal with her on a daily basis, so I want her to learn how to behave with me.

Anyway, please get back to me soon because she's sleeping now in her crate and I just don't know what to do with her when it's time to come out again.

Thanks!
Carolyn

[Guest Anonymous]

i know it is hard, but dont feel bad about using the crate. it is completely natural for a puppy to be in a crate. it appeals to their natural instinct to "den." dont use it as a punishment though. if she is getting annoying and you want to put her in her crate, correct her annoying behavior and then walk her to the crate. when you get close, tell her "go crate" or "kennel up" or whatever command you prefer and praise her as she goes in. i usually leave a box of treats on top of the crate and treat my dog when he goes crate.

also, i want to clear up where I am coming from. I dont want anyone thinking that I bully my dogs around. I am currently raising a presa canario that will weigh between 150-160 lbs. he will be trained for personal protection. many of the breeds that are used for personal protection are known as "hard" pups. they dont react to typical corrections. i expect a high level of obedience in the face of all sorts of distractions. he is my friend, but he will listen to me. most dogs do respond to a stern "no!" some dont. mine DEFINATELY does not. i do feel that this is a "hard" pup. many terrier breeds are.

i completely understand if you are not comfortable using the prong collar. I wast comfortable initially either and I agree that it is best used initially in the supervision of a professional.

i guess i will start, well, at the beginning....

food: when you put your pups food down, leave it there for twenty minutes tops. then, take the food up and clean the bowl. no more food until next meal time (i recommend feeding three times/day if possible). this is another aspect of the control. if the pup knows that it can eat when he "asks" for his food, he is training you. dogs will eat anything if they are hungry. after 2-3 days of eating on a schedule, she will not leave her bowl until she is finished.

--another note, i just thought of. avoid getting to eye level with your dog. dont get down on the floor. if you let her on the couch, dont let her "stand" on you. it can be a dominance thing when they put their front feet on you and stand tall. if she lays down or sits, it is ok.

biting: part of the biting is something called "prey drive." you are walking or moving and she likes the chase. she especially likes the reaction she gets from you. this is what leads me to believe that you have a "hard" pup. typical pups will react to a stern "no!" by pausing, at least momentarily and tucking their tail/changing their posture. i would bet that she may stop for 1-2 seconds and then go after you again with more vigor. this is typical behavior for a "hard" pup.
the reason that you were advised to stop and walk away and turn your back has to do with essentially divorcing her from the pack as the alpha. the reason that it isnt working is because you havent yet (notice i say YET, because you will soon!) established a strong alpha position.

play time: remember, your pup is trying to train you as well. when she bites and wants you to play, the WORST thing you can do is play with her. at the very least, ignore her. i would recommend correcting her with "no!" and then, when she does it again, put her in her crate. Im not advocating ignoreing her and leaving her in the crate without play time for long periods of time (but i dont think that is a risk with you as her owner), but you should control play time too!

training: the key is consistency and small steps. if you are training her to sit and she keeps breaking sit to come get the food, then you "enforce" the sit and put her back in position and do it again. talk about frustrating!! you will probably do something similar to this a dozen times and she will still not get it. dont scold, just enforce. on time 13, she will get it and that is when you freak out and praise her like crazy! at that point, you have just started to train the sit. I estimate that it takes 3000-5000 successful repitions (when the dog doesnt break) to have completely trained a command.

fear during walks: several things are going on here. first, pups go through stages. one of the stages includes a fear imprint stage. there are two imprint stages, the second of which occurs between 6-14 months typically. (read this for more info on puppy stages http://www.doberman.org/articles/puppy.htm). at this point, your pup is looking to the alpha for protection from things that are new. at the moment, no strong alpha exists in his pack, so she is easily frightened. when you establish yourself, this will subside a lot. lastly, your reaction to her being scared. IGNORE this reaction. dont drag her down the road, but dont pick her up, dont tell her "its ok" or anything like that. bring one of her favorite toys with you. when you notice her getting scared, start playing. make it a game! dont coddle her, but dont force her either. this period of time is critical. take her to as many places and around as many people as possible. make sure you control the situation, though, because a traumatic event at this stage will probably stick with her forever.

jumping up: this one is easy. when she jumps up on you, take your knee and thump her in the chest. as you do this, say "off!" you dont knee-kick your pup, but thump her good--she may even fall over on her back. she will realize what "off!" means.

i am very concerned with the growling. i know that i am in the minority at this point, but this will excalate. she is in her adolescent period and she is trying to establish herself. it is critical that she realize that growling, bearing teeth, ANY sign of aggression will be met with severe consequences. since you are nervous about the prong, i would recommend seeing a professional at least once. let the pro see what is going on and make recommendations. it is hard for us to make completely accurate statements over the net. seeing a trainer/behaviorist once should not cost too much and it will give you the confidence to take correct measures.

OH OH OH...another thing!! when you are trying to get something out of her mouth or she is biting you, take your thumb and forefinger and put your hand down across the dogs nose and squeeze her flews (lips) against her teeth until she yelps. if she is biting, say "NO BITE." if she is chewing on something you want, say "DROP IT" or "OUT" or whatever you want. say it firmly and like you expect her to obey the first time.

remember, dont reward annoying behavior. be it barking while in the crate, biting at you, etc. she NEVER gets something good from being annoying. consistncy in this will change her basic manners so much you wont believe!!

hope this is helping!!
Joseph

[Guest Anonymous]

jweissg - thanks for that really helpful reply. Lots of good information in there for me to apply. Today has been an interesting day with Allie to say the least. I don't have much time right now, but I just want to catch you up on what's been going on today. We've had maybe 4 short training sessions today. She's doing better with her commands except DROP IT. I've had her on the really short leash when she's out of the crate in the house. I tried the drop it thing with some yummy treats...it worked just once or twice...but then when she knows I have the yummy treats out, she's not interested at all in putting anything else in her mouth...she's just after the treats, so we can practice. What do I do about this????

We just got back in from an interesting walk. I took some yummy treats with me and her ball that she likes. It wasn't that long before she was ready to turn around...pulling to go back home...there wasn't even anything there to be scared of...maybe a distant car or something. So, I got a treat out and this didn't phase at all...she kept pulling to go home. I was saying, Allie, come on...is that wrong? So, since the treat didn't work, I started throwing the ball in the direction I wanted to go and I started running in that direction. At first she wasn't interested, just pulling to go home, but after a couple minutes of me doing this, it got her over the "scared" thing and she kept going with me. I was SO happy. So, we looped around my development and I knew we were approaching these boys that are out in the street playing basketball and skateboarding. She is deathly afraid of this. I was determined to go by them, but when she noticed we were going right into the middle of "the scarey part," she pulled SO hard to go in the opposite direction. I was trying to ignore her and not say anything but it was impossible to ignore how hard she was pulling. She was basically flattened out on the sidewalk from pulling so hard. I did pull a couple of times, I know this isn't right, but it was my instinct. We were basically stuck...I took treats out, the ball out, trying to get all excited with the ball so she's follow me and she did not care...just MAJOR pulling in the opposite direction. It was clear to me that there was no way we were going to walk past these kids. I didn't want to turn around because I refused to give into her fear. So, I did something that might be wrong, but I felt out of options. I picked her up, didn't say a word to her, held her kind of low and we walked past the kids. Right when we got past them, I put her on the sidewalk and she pulled all the way home until right before we got to our yard. In this scenario, what was I supposed to do??? I was stuck! Do you think I moved too fast trying to get her past her biggest fear in the development (the kids)? Am I supposed to be gradual with this? Please help on this issue.

Before the big walk, I started out walking with her. I didn't see a bottle cap in the street and she picked it up in her mouth. I made the leash really short, got out a yummy treat and showed it to her and kept saying DROP IT in a stern voice. She was not giving in. I could tell she wanted the treat and the bottle cap. At one point, I put the treat on the ground and she reached for it while she had the bottle cap in her mouth. I grabbed the treat befoe she could do this. So, for about 5 minutes, I'm standing over her in the driveway, showing her the treat and she refused to give up the cap. I didn't really go into to reach for it b/c I knew she was ready to bite my hand off for real. So, I thought ok, I need to take her into the house and get something of higher value. So, I got the peanut butter jar out. She knows exactly what's in it and always gets interested...she still would not drop the cap. I put the first treat that I was trying to give her on the floor. She stumbled and dropped the bottle cap for a few seconds. I grabbed it and she went for the treat and ate it...then we went for the big walk. This is SO annoying!!!! What else can I do if I put the best treats in the world in front of her and she doesn't let go of the object to get them? It's either that or when I want to teach her drop it, she is so aware that the treats are around that she doesn't care to put anything of lesser value in her mouth.

The rest of the day, I have been alpha dog...making her work for her food, taking away a toy if she gets aggressive, etc.

Talk soon.
Carolyn

[Guest Anonymous]

it sounds like you have been doing a lot of things right! you are on the path to success.

when you practice the "drop it" command, try alternating rewards. when she has something you want her to let go of, tell her "drop it." one time , when she is successful, reward her with the treat, the next time simply reward her with praise, the next time with a toy that she likes, then start working in not rewarding more than a passing "good girl." that should keep her on her toes. now, this might be a little more challenging, but I would try to work on the "drop it" command with items that are not toys, etc. i know i said i dont like the practice of "baiting" your dog, but I am worried that you may be undermining your true goal here.

what you REALLY want is her not to pick up something she shouldnt have period. not only should she "drop it" when she does pick up your shoe, but she should be learning not to mess with it to begin with. I am worried that she may start associating her toys with items that she should not pick up and other stuff as items she should pick up.

what I would try is this:

one day when you have a lot of time and you will be around the house a lot, leave several items on the floor around the house that you think she will pick up. dont throw them at her or place them down while she is watching you, but just casually leave them around. when she picks up the item, tell her "No! Drop it!", then redirect her to one of her toys. as she takes the toy, praise her and give her a treat. this should teach her to take interest in her items

[Guest Anonymous]

i also forgot to mention...

as far as the walking thing is concerned, you are not doing it too fast. I prefer the "cold turkey" method. pay close attention to how you react. if you get tense because you know she is going to get nervous or if you tighten up on the leash or something, she will notice and react.

it is fine to tell her "come on", but dont coax her. when you tell her to come get her food, you dont have to coax her i would imagine. you are trying to portray a confidence so that she picks up on it. you are essentially glossing over the fact that there is a situation that she is frightened of. also, next time there are people playing bastketball, go sit and watch with your dog. make her calm down.

keep us posted.

Joseph