CGC testing question for breed specific test

[imported_Matty]

I am just wondering if when they test for temperment do they test differently for each breed?
I was talking to some one who has had many of their dogs tested for temperment and they said that depending on the breed they are tested for different things. He said that if it was a gaurd dog or terrier there were certain allowances for them. He said if it were a breed like a Newfoundland they were a bit more strict with testing and one Newfoundland dog failed because it didn't react to any thing, for me I would think that was a good stable dog, but, what do I know :roll:
I was just wondering as I saw on the ATTS Breed Statistics that the
Caucasian Ovcharka got 100% percent score on temperment, I thought they were more of an aloof breed because they were bred to be a guardian breed and can be more prone to human aggression.

On this page of the following website, it kinda answers my questions but not completely. In other words would a dog which has a high guarding instinct have more allowances than say a Newf or a Golden. Is there such a thing as failing for not showing any reaction at all. A person I spoke with said that a friend had taken in their Newf and it failed because it didn't react to any thing and fell asleep during the gun shot test. Is that true or is this person pulling my leg :-?

http://www.atts.org/testdesc.html

The ATTS test focuses on and measures different aspects of temperament such as stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness as well as the dog's instinct for protectiveness towards its handler and/or self-preservation in the face of a threat. The test is designed for the betterment of all breeds of dogs and takes into consideration each breed's inherent tendencies.

The stranger is never closer than 10 feet from the dog. The handler's 2 foot arm and the 6' lead is added in for a total of 18 feet. Aggression here is checked against the breed standard and the dog's training. A schutzhund trained dog lunging at the stranger is allowed, but if an untrained Siberian husky does the same, it may fail.

So basically my question is just because a dog passes the CGC testing it doesnt really mean that it is the most sound dog of all breeds, just for its own breed as they are tested accordingly to breed standard?

[imported_Matty]

I don't know much about temperment testing at all :D
This person I was talking to had the CGC temperment test done on all of his dogs. He does obedience trials with his dogs and he gets the tests done on all of them, he has never had one that failed. He was just saying to me (of course I never end up getting correctly what people tell me, I have to see it on paper in order to remember any thing :lol: thats why I'm asking here). But, I do recall he did say that the CGC was more breed specific and they do not look at all the breeds the same, they allow for certain allowances. What may not be allowed for a Golden or a Newf may be acceptable for an Staff terrier or Rottie. To me it kinda makes sense. I will check into this further for my own benefit with one of the key testers.

Thanks for your replies. And perhaps they are just pulling my leg :wink:
I didn't know there was a difference between ATTS or the CGC testing at all.

[Guest Mutts4Me]

[quote name='Matty']I was just wondering as I saw on the ATTS Breed Statistics that the Caucasian Ovcharka got 100% percent score on temperment,

Yeah, but you have to take into consideration that only 4 dogs were tested. So 4/4 = 100% Plus if they allow certain behaviors for certain breeds, then a Caucasian could probably bark and lunge at people and still pass because that's "natural." I think that's utterly ridiculous, personally. All dogs should be held to the same standard. If someone's looking at a breed's temperament statistics to see which would be best in their family, they're not going to understand the differences. They'll see a Caucasian with 100% and think "Great, it's a guard dog and it's got a great temperament, maybe it'd be the perfect dog to protect me and my kids."

The stranger is never closer than 10 feet from the dog. The handler's 2 foot arm and the 6' lead is added in for a total of 18 feet. Aggression here is checked against the breed standard and the dog's training. A schutzhund trained dog lunging at the stranger is allowed, but if an untrained Siberian husky does the same, it may fail.

That is faulty logic, in my opinion. A schutzhund-trained dog shouldn't lunge at a stranger, or anyone, unprovoked. Correct me if I'm wrong, but schutzhund is supposed to be an exercise in training, and it doesn't make the dogs aggressive. It hones their obedience (and protection) skills and could actually make it a more stable, controlled dog. I recently read up on a Pit Bull who was titled in Schutzhund and also worked as a therapy dog in a nursing home. A schutzhund-trained dog should only lunge if told, I think.

Here's the CGC page: http://www.akc.org/love/cgc/index.cfm

[imported_Matty]

Yeah, but you have to take into consideration that only 4 dogs were tested. So 4/4 = 100%

I think that's utterly ridiculous, personally. All dogs should be held to the same standard. If someone's looking at a breed's temperament statistics to see which would be best in their family, they're not going to understand the differences. They'll see a Caucasian with 100% and think "Great, it's a guard dog and it's got a great temperament, maybe it'd be the perfect dog to protect me and my kids."

Mutts4me
I guess I didn't read how many dogs were tested, and yeah, I just thought that it was great that the breed of dog like the Caucasian had such a wonderful temperment :oops: I thought it was strange that such a breed did so well :lol: I wonder if people will get mad at me for descriminating against this breed :lol: they were bred for a purpose and I don't think the purpose was to be a lap dog :lol:
Mutts4me, I think the test scores are kinda misleading on this site I posted as well.

[imported_Kat]

Caucasians are so rare compared to the other breeds so that should certainly be taken into account. As for being tougher on other breeds, that just shows that the tester is not competent and shows a bias. When testing dogs for for the kennel club good citizen dog scheme I have always treated each dog equally. The same goes for when I examined the pups and dogs at their behaviour exams on saturday. It is vital that when you do these tests that you are fair and that means teating each entity equally and using a yardstick. I would hate to see your friend judge a formal obeience competition. In obedience when judging you can't be harder on one dog more than another. If that was the case then all our judges would be crap including me!

[imported_Matty]

I would hate to see your friend judge a formal obeience competition. In obedience when judging you can't be harder on one dog more than another. If that was the case then all our judges would be crap including me!

The friend in question does not do his own temperment testing :roll: the main reason I am asking if there is allowances for certain breeds is because I was attacked by one of his APBT's which passed the CGC with flying colors. The dog was very nice when things were going the dogs way but attacked me and lunged at a few other people.

[Sarahstaff]

It would certainly be possible to get an unsound dog through the CGC test. The temperament component of the CGC test doesn't really stress the dog... there are audio & visual stimuli, the dog is handled (gently) by the evaluator, and is in the presence of another dog. There is also very little consistency to the CGC testing- some evaluators let a dog get away with almost anything, others are more demanding. (I belive the AKC is about to tighten up on that) When my Tully was tested she; tried to jump up on the examiner, wiggled all over with wanting to play with the strange dog so that I had to keep telling her to sit, and cried loudly through the supervised separation. She passed. :roll:

The CGC is not breed specific. The behaviors required of the dog are very basic, and there are really no allowances to be made.

The ATTS temperament test is breed specific, and it has to be. It is a much more in-depth assessment of temperament, and what is right in one breed would not be in another.

Mutts4me, Schutzhund training is relevant to the reaction of the dog to the threatening stranger in the ATTS test, as it is very like some of the situations in Schutzhund. While I have no personal interest in the bitesports, I know that there are situations where a dog is supposed to show protective behavior when the decoy is threatening. The dog does not have to wait for a command in those situations. This isn't the neutral stranger, or the friendly stranger, encountered at the beginning of the test. This is the stranger who is charging at dog and handler, waving a stick and yelling.

I saw a couple Schutzhund trained dogs react during that section of the ATTS test, and they all had the same reaction, of lunging and barking, which is trained to them. One of the dogs was known to me, and I got a chance to meet the other; they are both nice, stable dogs who deserved to pass the test, as they did. They cannot be faulted for acting according to their training.

OTOH, if my Staffybull had reacted the same way, he would have deservedly failed the test, as that is not correct temperament in the breed, and he has not been trained to do that. If he had hid behind me (as one of the Berners did), I hope he would have failed, because that isn't correct temperament either, but I don't know since he didn't do that. (the Berner who hid behind his handler passed)

It is probably possible to get an unsound dog through the ATTS test, too, but it would be a lot harder than the CGC, because the ATTS test puts much more pressure on the dog.

[Guest Mutts4Me]

[quote name='Sarahstaff']Mutts4me, Schutzhund training is relevant to the reaction of the dog to the threatening stranger in the ATTS test, as it is very like some of the situations in Schutzhund. While I have no personal interest in the bitesports, I know that there are situations where a dog is supposed to show protective behavior when the decoy is threatening. The dog does not have to wait for a command in those situations. This isn't the neutral stranger, or the friendly stranger, encountered at the beginning of the test. This is the stranger who is charging at dog and handler, waving a stick and yelling.

Yes, you're right.

I was going by the quoted section - it didn't indicate that this was an aggressive stranger. I thought it was a general statement, and they were saying that if a Schutzhund-trained dog lunged at any stranger, that would be acceptable. But in looking at the website, I do see that they only made that concession for the aggressive stranger. Thank you for clearing that up.

[Sarahstaff]

[quote name='DivineOblivion19']
Wow, that upsets me. Divina didn't pass because she was standing at the end of her leash looking out the door during supervised separation. The judge failed her because of that. I was watching through a window and she was just standing there looking out the door. She wasn't upset at all. I think the guy was just being an a$$ because she was deaf. He passed a Golden that he had on a tight leash and wouldn't let her walk around and he was talking to her the whole time telling her to stay. :-?

Yes, there is no consistency to the CGC at all. Tully really shouldn't have passed when she did. (she could easily pass it now, btw, she was 13 months and very silly when she took it) I saw the same examiner pass other dogs who probably shouldn't have. (all had excessive friendliness in common). It sounds to me like your Divina should have passed, and I've heard of other dogs subjected to higher than necessary standards.

Still, it's better than nothing.

BTW, your avatar is really cool.

[mouseatthebusstop]

don't think mine would pass -it is bonfire weekend here :evil: lots of bangs and fireworks -they have got good tempaments but they need constant reasureing it's ok

[imported_Matty]

Thanks every one for your answers, especially your sarahstaff. I have never done any CGC temp testing on my dogs. That is why I found it strange about my friends dog passing and still having the tendancy to be aggressive. He is only aggressive when things arent going his way. For obedience and agility he is great.